Solvable: The Depression and Anxiety We Can All Expect During This Pandemic

mission in space. He spent three hundred and forty consecutive days away from family, friends, and loved ones, three hundred and forty days without gravity, and also without hugs and without a home cooked meal. In many ways, that prefigured the kind of social isolation that so many of us

have been forced to live through during this pandemic. Obviously, a year in space is different from social distancing during COVID nineteen, but that experience did teach him some lessons that make facing the challenges of this time a little easier. It's going to be tough, There's no question. I've spent three Christmases in space. You know, it's a unique place to spend the holiday, but at the same time, you

want to be with your friends and family. People just need to realize that this is part of our collective mission. There is no shame in asking for help. On the space station, I had to talk to a psychiatrist every two weeks. Kelly trained hard for his missions and now has some advice for how to build up both our

physical and mental health during challenging times. I am Scott Kelly, former NASA astronaut, and my solvable problem is the depression and anxiety that we can all expect to experience during this pandemic. Scott, welcome. I have to ask you. The space X Falcon just launched, taking four astronauts to the space station for six months, and I just wonder what your thoughts were about that, especially at a moment when the country and so much of the world is facing

a very different kind of separation from normal life. Well. I was excited for NASA. You know, we've been working on that commercial crew program for almost ten years now, I think, and to now have the capability to regularly launch people into lowerth orbit and get them to the International Space Station is a huge success. You know. More personally, I am friends with all of the people on the spacecraft, so Eachiagucci, the Japanese astronaut, as an aswered our classmate

of mine. I was also in space with Shannon Walker on her previous mission, which was ten years ago, and I closed the hatch on her when she was returning to Earth and now spent ten years since she last flew, So that's exciting. Mike Hopkins was my crew support astronaut on my last mission, so you helped my family. And then Victor Glover. I don't know him as well, but he's a new guy. This is his first space flight, so very very exciting both for NASA and me personally

because my relationships with those people. Yeah, So as you say, you know three of the four really well, so I imagine it's less a matter of you giving them advice on dealing with six months in space and I kind of comparing notes about all of your experiences. But what's that what's that conversation? Like, I mean, what when astronauts talk about the experience of long term isolation in space,

what do you talk about? You know, Well, think specifically with those three folks that have experience on this flight, their experience is so extensive, you know, they've all flown in space for long duration space flights. I wouldn't give them any But when you're talking to somebody new, I mean, I think for me, it's important that they have the right perspective. And in the case when I flew for a year, my perspective on that mission was me being there for a long time was part of my job.

That's why I was doing it. And you know, I think in this pandemic now and the isolation we're currently experiencing, people just need to realize that this is part of our collective mission. It's the first time in our in my lifetime, that you know, everyone on the planet has been working to solve a problem in in a collective way,

to follow the guidance to do the right thing. So I think the first thing I tell people is to just understand that, you know, part of part of your job is just being there for a long time, and it's not going to be easy. But you know, if you if you think about it, if you're thoughtful, if you have a plan to get through it, you can get to the end of that six months or however long you're going to be in space with as much energy and as enthusiasm as you had in the beginning.

And that was the case that I found in my year long mission. I think of being an astronaut as the definition of having a mission. But it's interesting that you say big part of the mission is to get through the mission, right which is something I think a lot of people can probably relate to right now. And six months isn't a crazy time frame estimate for how long?

How much longer we're going to have to be isolated, at least to a significant extent, And it's a long winter with a lot of darkness, being around few of any people for some of us. I mean, do you what's the same about it? What's different about it? Well, you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, I was living in a high rise apartment in downtown Houston, which was I guess a little bit more stressful in that you're coming into contact with a lot of people in

the elevator, you know, on a daily basis. But despite all this, I did say to my wife early on, I said, you know, if I had the choice to spend spend a year in space or a year in this apartment, this apartment wins every single time, because you know, space has all kinds of other challenges, you know, particularly the you know, the floating. You know, despite it being fun, it makes just about everything else more difficult to do.

The carmen dioxide levels are generally fairly uncomfortable, you know, the fluid shift to your head makes your head always feel stuffed up. But there are many many things that are very similar about how you deal with isolation. And in my case, I flew a six month flight that a few years prior to me flying in space for nearly a year, and I at the end of that mission, I just found the you know, the anxiety building up,

the walls closing in a little bit. So you know, a year flight was not all that appealing to me in the beginning, but you I wanted to fly again and I wanted to be more challenging, so eventually I came to terms with it. But I went into it with a plan. You know. My plan involved things like, you know, very closely following a schedule, pacing myself, you know, making time for work but also time to rest, time for hobbies, time to connect with you know, family and friends.

And I did that very deliberately in the beginning of the pandemic. It definitely helped me through a year in space and is I think, you know, having that mindset of this is my mission. Here are the things I need to do, you know, to take care of myself, my family. You know it's important. You know, exercise and getting outside is incredibly important, especially in this pandemic where you know, having a healthy immune system is really really important.

So and those two things can you know, really boost your immune system. So a lot of parallels. Yeah, talk about the technology part of it, because for so many of us, technology as a blessing and a curse in the time of the pandemic. With social isolation, it let's just do things remotely and enables all sorts of things, but it can feel really oppressive. And you know, I've never seen a picture of someone surrounded by more technology than you on the International Space Station. So how do

you think about that? Well, I think we're just really lucky to live in this time and to go through a pandemic now versus nineteen eighteen. You know, it makes isolation easier because you know, the entertainment value having that technology to entertain us, to allow us to connect with our friends and family very very important. Gives us access to a lot of information. Yeah, Scott, when you're isolated. Is it helpful to stay closely involved with the news,

I mean, in your case, the news from Earth. But I think a lot of people are having this question right now. Is you know this being on top of the news make you feel in control and knowing what's going on? Or does it? Does it have a negative effect on you? So I found in space that following the news on Earth was really important. Having said that, I am kind of a news junkie. In this type of environment, information is everything. It's the most important thing

we have. It's how we prepare ourselves to combat this worldwide pandemic. So now having said that, you got to follow like informed and trusted sources. One of the things I learned in my twenty years at NASA was everything we did was not rocket science. When it was rocket science, you need to get your information from a rocket scientist,

you know, not one of your friends on Facebook. I mean they might be great people, but you know they're not epidemiologists probably, I mean maybe some of them are, you know, people, just we need to be getting the right information from trusted sources, from the experts. Yeah, I mean an astronaut who didn't believe in experts would would be an astronaut with a short life expectancy. I imagine, yeah, absolutely.

I mean everything we do, you know, you do as part of a team, and you you know, members of those teams are the experts. It's not you know your cousin Vinnie on Facebook. Indeed, Scott, I read somewhere that you took one of my favorite books into space, and that is Endurance by Alfred Lansing, which is about the Shackleton, the Doom Shackleton Antarctic expedition. What about that book is resonated with you? And do is that's still something the

book you think about? You know, when I was getting ready to fly for six months, I wanted to bring a book with me that if my situation ever got really dire, which can happen. I mean generally early conditions up there's pretty is okay. But if it ever got so dire that I started feeling sorry for myself, I

can't do this. I would just pick up Alfred Lansing's and Dorance read a few pages and then feel a lot better about my situation, because, I mean, there really is an incredible example of not only surviving in a extreme environment, over twenty people marooned on an iceberg for over a year after the ship sank in the Antarctic. But also an example of leadership that Ernist Shackleton displayed to get his crew to rescue themselves over the course

of a two year period where no one died. I mean, it's just really an amazing, amazing feat of a teamwork and leadership and survival. So I flew with that book twice in space. That brought it with me. That's so great, and I recommended as highly as you do and anyone who had read it, among other things. It's just one

of the great adventure stories of all time. That twenty fifteen mission where you were in space for a whole year, that was extraordinary in that it was partly a physiological study related to the fact that you have a twin brother, Mark just elected the Senate, also former astronaut, and it was sort of a unique opportunity to study what happens to someone in space against the control group of someone who wasn't in space. Tell me about that mission, what

you were trying to find out and what we learned. Well, interestingly enough, spending a year in space had nothing to do with me having a twin brother, identical twin that was also an astronaut. It was kind of an afterthought after I was already selected, and kind of came up out of a question I asked. When they were getting ready to announce the crew of me and Misha, Russian brother from another mother Russian cosmonaut, they were given us was giving us a briefing on the science so we

could answer questions from the media about the science. And in that briefing, I said, Hey, is there any thing planned any kind of experiments with my brother and I, because you know, being identical twins might give you a you know, unique insight. And the answer I got was no. Then they went back and talked about it for a few weeks and then went out to the you know, academic community, and there was a lot of interest. Even

though it was a sample of one. They felt like there would be enough anecdotal information that they would, you know, give them insight on other areas to investigate. And yeah, there was a bunch of science done and some really interesting results. What have we learned so far from from that somewhat spontaneous experiment. I'm sure that the data will continue to accumulate as you both get older. Are you Are you five years older than your twin brother now

as a result of spending a year in space? No, you know that Einstein's what is it general relativity time dilation thing. I think I'm now. I used to be six minutes younger. Now I am like six minutes and several milli seconds younger as a fact result of being in space or so long. Some of the other results, though, we're pretty interesting. You know, I'm not a I'm not a scientist. I only play one on TV. Yeah, some pretty interesting stuff. My telomeres change while it was in space.

My telomeres are these ends of your chromosomes, like little caps, and as we get older, they get you know, more shorter and more fraid. It's really an indication of our physical age. And the hypothesis was that you'll mean, in space, the stress, microgravity, the radiation, you know, my telomeres would get shorter compared to my brothers. They actually got longer, which was a surprise, and at first they thought, well,

maybe it was due to like exercise. We exercise a lot in space, because if you don't, you'll turn into gumby no bones, no bones or muscles. But yeah, so we exercise a lot, and initially that's what they thought it was maybe the controlled diet, and NASA the researchers realized that there were there was a Japanese experiment going on with these small worms. They were on the space station at the same time, and their telomeres got better too. And I never once saw those guys working out on

a treadmill or doing any type of exercise. So clearly there's more to this than we understand. Yeah, were there any psychological observations you mentioned on the your six month visit, You're you're earlier from a shorter trip having a hard time towards the end of it. If you talk anymore about what that experience might have been like for our listeners, you know, because I think it makes people feel good to know that while asking outs are heroes, there are

also normal human beings like the rest of us. But was there any comparison to what your brother went through at any point? So, you know, a lot of those studies were bass were cognitive studies, like we'd have to do these tests that really measured your ability to you know, focus and solve, you know, problems, things that you could do on a computer throughout my year in space, I

continue to get better at these tests. I think maybe it was just because I was taking it very seriously, and then when I got back I got much worse. But I think it's really just a reflection on how I felt physically and how you're You know, physical well being definitely affects your mental well being and vice versa.

But in the case of being on the space station for a long time, I got to the end of this flight feeling in much better shape mentally than I did on the sixth month, And I think it's just a testament to having a plan and sticking with the plan. And the plan was to pace myself to get exercise as much as I can, and you know, to follow

a schedule. I think it's important to have weekends much different or as different as possible from your week days, because you definitely you need something to look forward to, otherwise the weeks will just run run together. But I think the biggest thing for me was just understanding that on that year long flight, the reason I was there

was to be there a really long time. And when when you recognize you know what your mission is and have the proper perspective, I think it makes it easier, and I hope people will look at this situation, you know, especially now we're coming into a really critical time with rising cases, hospitalizations and you know, unfortunately deaths, but we're also getting close to we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, So I think people will naturally,

you know, put their guard down and the situation could get much much worse because just because we have vaccines identified, doesn't mean they're giving us any kind of immunity at this point and won't be for some time. Unfortunately, they're going to work eventually, but it's you know, this is not the time to not take this seriously, and this time is the holiday time, Thanksgiving and Christmas, and basically the methods to a lot of people is to be safe,

especially if they're older relatives. If you shouldn't have a family gathering, would you how do you how would you advise people to cope with that? It's going to be tough, There's no question. I've spent three Christmases in space. You know, it's a unique place to spend the holiday, but at the same time, you want to be you know, with your friends and family. People just need to realize that this is part of our collective mission. There is no

shame in asking for help. On the space station, I had to talk to a psychiatrist every two weeks, so Scott, all the astronauts would speak to a psychiatrist or a psychologists. Yeah, every two weeks. Whether we like it or not, we have a like a twenty minute conference with psychiatrist psychologist for guys. I called them the brain trust I found.

At the beginning of the mission, I didn't even I didn't like talking to them, But then as you know, I got further into it, it was, you know, it was a good way to share your feelings, your emotions, how you're getting along with your crew, how you're feeling about your life and your situation. And there's no shame in that. People are generally very you know, acceptable with going to a doctor for physical problems, but for some reason not mental problems. But there are a lot of

resources out there. It's interesting. I mean, people of course usually do therapy in person, and now a lot of people are having some pression of the experience you did of getting it on Zoom and trying to trying to make that a human connection. It sounds like you've found that it developed over time. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I think just think it's important for people to realize

there are a lot of resources out out there. I was recently working with the AARP Foundation and United Health and they have this website that has an incredible amount of helpful information. It's connect to Effect. It's the number two and affect with an a dot org. And you know, you can you can take some surveys and see if you're susceptible to any types of depression and anxiety. Because

this is a public health crisis. I mean, the people that are having depression as a result of isolation is really a public health crisis like the you know, not as severe as a pandemic obviously, but still not insignificant. So and you can also find help in your community, in the area that you live if you're experiencing stress and depression and anxiety. So I encourage people to go out there and find that information. Scott, we like to wind up the show by asking what are some things

our listeners can do? You know, I wonder what you would suggest to people in terms of resources for dealing with it themselves, but also in terms of understanding the problem of anxiety and depression that comes so often with isolation. You know, other resources now I think are out there that can, maybe, you know, help people find inspiration in their lives. If not, you know Alfred Lansing's Endurance, maybe

my book Endurance. I'm not trying to do a shameless plug here, but I think my story, you know, is one of just never giving up and how you can, with some inspiration, realize your dreams and hopefully it inspires people and can inspire people to get through this situation that we're currently And I also have a course that's coming out Unknowable. Knowable's a kind of Spotify for learning where you can sign up and listen to all these classes.

You know, there's a lot of resources out there, and you know, I encourage people to seek them out and help us get through this pandemic we're in with as much energy and enthusiasm at the end as we had in the beginning. Retired NASA astronauts Scott Kelly logged more than five hundred and twenty total days in space. He served as a flight engineer, Space Shuttle pilot, and mission commander,

among other roles. Be sure to check out our show notes for suggestions Scott Kelly shared for ways to find support during this difficult time, and if you're struggling with depression, there's help available. You can call the Suicide Prevention Hotline at one hundred two seven three eight two five five anytime, day or night. Solvable is off next week for Thanksgiving. We're thankful to you for listening. Please consider leaving us a review and sharing an episode of Solvable with a

friend or family member. This season, Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by Camille Baptista. Our senior producer is Jocelyn Frank. Catherine Gardo is our managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. Special thanks to Kobe Guildford, Heather Faine, Eric Sandler, Carly Migliori, and Kadisha Hollad. I'm Jacob Weisberg.