Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for software developers, testers and all guys from software engineering who wants make great software. My name is Richie. I'm a software quality coach keynote speaker author and podcaster. my guest today is Julia Pizkova. she's co-founder of the data startup Alpha Affinity and helped in past startups grow into scale. She drives forward thinking discussions on HR practices remote work and emerging technologies.
And we talk today about informal networks, how important they are for software development and software testing. We talked about how these spontaneous connections can improve team collaboration trust & effectiveness especially if you're in a remote or hybrid environment. As you know I think testers are very big connectors of the software engineering processes and projects.
to focus on informal network is great power of our daily job as testers and deaf people in the communication because I cannot be unfortunately on site this year, so we do the recording remote. But i checked a speaker list and agenda of tracks. then found your topic which is about informal networks communication in companies And now get big ears. that's very interesting! mainly from the quality perspective, from testing software development perspective.
We need a lot of communication and a lot informal communications so it's good to have this topic on the plate now! Yes just tell us what are our informal networks? What you're talking about there? I will answer with a question if I may start the questions. So how would you feel? A, If your assigned to work with someone? B when you choose to work for somebody. When i chose it is much better and more likely for me Right? And you are not unique here.
Yeah, it's our human nature and that's how our intrinsic motivation in particular works. That is nothing we can actually influence a lot but as soon as we have more favorable environment for us to communicate with people or work The higher the chances are that we enjoy it.
And as a result, they're doing very good job because you know, as far as I now testers or not these people at the factories who are just in our during their routine work but there is possible for quality and that this very complex and that involves communication with other people. yeah so In formal networks, it's something that exists in parallel to our formal structures.
That we can see at the org chat and as soon as something really happens To you that draws your attention You go to someone at your team. very often It is not all teammates. That's exactly the difference that is made. And when you say, how do they get formed? I think this unconsciousness... How did their networks get formed in a team or with my people surrounding me? Yeah! It was very good question and here we can. We can look at it from two perspectives.
The first perspective is our feeling, how we observe it because any time you get to some team or group of people... ...we become a part that informal network and also influences our behavior. On the other hand.. ..we learn about more rational aspects cool scientific books and see how it's done in practice.
I can probably also give an example here, so the very first time when i started looking at the issue with awareness Happened when I was onboarding my very good friend to a startup we were working. It was a small start-up at the time, but already had some other departments that didn't work too much. and My friend is a junior developer But i knew he's very well organized because He organized some cool trips and events, he can be well as a people.
And instead of typical super supporting this person I will help you or introduce here something that feels very right to me at least... ...I decided give him much more freedom And I connected him, it was something like oh we haven't talked to people. We haven't worked with people from the newly formed HR department. Go and talk to them see what they're doing maybe shadowed them and See how he can do this stuff? He came back and there were very effective despite. you know who is a junior in here.
himself didn't know that much yet about project team. so After that, I realized this informal network is really decisive because then a friend of mine initiated other activities with people here. It was very different level of effectiveness and involvement And after that we started paying more attention to the... Okay, so it's not just something that exists in parallel and lives its organic life. You know I went for a coffee with Richie – he is an interesting guy! So i'll talk to him.
maybe then do something together but it's something which can influence and create environments You know, more like from not very closed facilitation format but the open one. Like a hackathon for example where people can explore and have opportunities to get these informal connections with other people. What do you think is the importance of these informal networks, even in a normal company? Because we... A company always wants to structure those things.
Wants their procedures and communicates with whom but how much...? Is it really important that they have this informal network or does it work without them? Everyone works for his own. or yeah, what is your opinion there? It's a great question and the answer is tightly connected with them. You know this awesome time we're living in when everything changes. all of that I'm seeing every day.
so This is the best test for resilience of companies how First, their organization can adapt to the new demand. To a new environment. and here it's hard to rely on formal networks. first of all because how do you define Formal Networks in advance? You don't know what would happen. Yeah So How Can You Optimize Them? And second of All In Formal networks don't involve enough trust. And when something bad happens, yeah? When something is really like oh my God! What can I do?!
You have some kind of insecurity and you need to have this trust to be able talk with other people... ...and you need even more trust and proximity as others take actions for a new risk. Because adapting, being resilient also involves risks. It's something new. I cannot know. is it going to be a successful thing or not?
But when you have these people together with you and you can rely on them And trust them then your more actionable Then its less stress for the organization To okay our formal structures had to perfect. But does that guy talk to them? Oh my God, they don't talk with each other. Change in the graph! If we track their weapons... Did I answer your question? Yes yes what you just said is very interesting.
so it's mainly a part of trust and What I heard is that the informal networks, they support this trust. They are stronger at this level of trust to other people. so we can work good together and... I think a procedure or process done by an company cannot push these trusts into people! Some people believe it's possible but in practice We can see that. Yeah, of course we trust not something we can influence. So you're dealing with this topic. What do think has changed in the last years?
when all people now go to their home office and some are there Some are not, some drink coffee together what's changed? What can we do? maybe if it's this informal network is not so good at the moment? Okay, in terms of what We Can Do I guess people will still be able to go to the OOP. There are a lot things that i'll describe but yeah jokes aside In my opinion, the remote and hybrid mode have revealed a lot of existing problems.
So according to my observation if in the company this culture was already there they were also adopting easier to the remote again because they had trust. so I get on call with the developer. Who cares, right? But if we come and don't have trust someone is off camera. How do you feel? Not very nice Right? Yeah. so remote does scale the existing problems And There also has to be more other tools that can compensate unplanned interactions. Yeah, like this famous water cooler.
for me it was more like coffee machine kind of place doesn't matter in Germany. I think its a lot about viewpoints. yeah something like that. Yeah, and when you don't have that... You then have to compensate. And if need find the ways to involve people? Find something interesting for them. That wouldn't be also known as forced coffee talk. Oh my god! I'm at a computer for eight hours and now i am going into this coffee dog. But remote has lots of advantages.
First of all very often easier to break the silence between different locations. Remote makes us even, doesn't matter if I'm from Munich or Berlin... Doesn't matter! Or another country? I can get together and so as i cannot have beer points apparently in Munich Yeah, I can't have this additional opportunities to interact with people and The Berlin maybe like more coffee. People yeah They also don't have their coffee And you can kind of mix and then you can do the gatherings You haven't.
your are more like okay doesn't matter what the location. get the people together as they work on the same stuff. Or you Can also make events like my favorite hackathons, where you have the borders but then people self-organize around these topics and they can also collaborate with someone for their first time. And to have their cat nearby and pet them at the same time was pretty impossible before... There are a lot of things you can do. They depend on the company set up as well, yeah?
I think it's very difficult for in their remote location or if they're people are remote located when they come together not to force them into structure now be happy and join together have party all sit there do their job and not to talk now. And I think you need a good feeling for how can you put some events, these events into the culture of the company? Yeah that's very good point!
That is why i think you cannot rely exclusively on this meetings although they are important but stuff as you work remotely. Great, these opportunities show there should be a culture when it's cool to work together with other departments and come up for some new initiatives And not the culture where like Have you seen that tester coming along? You can't imagine how many bugs they report from me. Yeah, so yeah you understand our business. It's very clear message of trying to get across.
You mentioned in your abstract that the product development can take a big benefit for this from these informal networks and then in a component how what was behind it? What do you mean with them? So I Get a lot to tell but i will choose some examples. My favorite one is the product discovery. So some time ago it was really rather something for a product manager or owner to do, to communicate with clients. you know take all what does they want review their analytics and so on.
And nowadays we have this cool trend when you involve people from different areas into that activities. Of course it doesn't mean all the development team goes to talk with a new client, no? But there can be differences in reviewing metrics together and how user is interacting with your website or striking videos actually interacting with the clients or users at some product review initiative. So there can be lots of things and it depends on the project itself, what makes sense?
But the idea is to have people that are really good technically... And people who have this product perspective maybe for some other products, there would be some other areas. But the idea you have people with different background at the same time learning about feedback from users and brainstorming how it can be done? And then when that people get back to their teams they have a very good image in their head and are aligned.
everyone else Plus, you can also add there again our favorite newcomers and newcomer come. they are unbiased. They don't have the history about your product. that can ask very open, you know this perfect unbiassed coaching questions because they don't know And You Can Also Benefit From It. I think, really this trends go together.
This modern product discovery cross-functional product development working with the feedback from users and by feedback from their users in a very broad perspective not what they exactly say at user interview but how they are actually dealing. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a very interesting part where before we talked about the trust thing.
so if different people from different departments come together and work for a client to brainstorming There is a Trust Building in their for them And So If they go back To Their Departments They Know Oh i knew something From Marketing Now From UX Design Then From All The Other Departements this discovery. So then I have a relationship with them, and there is the beginning of trust for me with them.
until he's not just in number There are people they're and that can interact with them when it helps me. And i think if i have repeated some things i get Some of these networks In my company. Yeah yeah? Then you can also scale but you know someone has a challenger, oh! You can talk to that person. Very nice person. I worked with them on this and these... And it goes even further. How can we motivate people who are very introvert or to do the work for their own and want don't communicate much.
How can we motivate them not push into this structure but help a little bit make some of these networks? Yeah, I think that when they're talking about people who are more introverted in behavior at company or working environment They may have a much fewer tight relationships, but they can be of higher quality. So I'm not even sure you know? I don't think that... I think we can also talk to the person and ask questions like how do you feel then what can i support with?
How make it easier for those people? Of course But I wouldn't strive for, okay everyone at our company needs to have four relationships like with this department and with these people are different. And maybe giving people space and trust in them as soon as we create the environment which is favorable for that when it's rewarded given peoples freedom I think, and trust in them that they will do the relationships as soon as you come to the hackathon or some beer party at the gathering.
They'll go it's comfortable for them... ...and we'll do our best as a team by creating this environment, maybe supporting these people being interested in what activities talking to them and then just letting go. Okay so we design spaces... We invite them and trust that they will come if we have something they like not force into their yearly objectives. now relationships in the company. Yeah, yeah okay I understand.
here you gave us some examples how we can promote this informal networks with a hackathon or with this product discoverer. do have another example what we can do to force these internal information networks to bring it more into our culture? What is one of the first steps? as for me? Is what's called alignment when you openly talk with people, okay. Um, what does a Perfect teamwork For you? how would it look?
Uh-huh This way of communication that works for your and what is hard for you How do think we should be at these situations when some challenges come, and we have to handle them. And then you can give examples because for a lot of especially when we talk the technical people who ask this question they're like what? Again there's fluffy stuff that doesn't talk to me. Examples help in real ones so I'm not making it up.
So i'm coming from very direct culture where it's okay to say in imperative when you are asking for something. Please do that for me, and I think in German we can also do this in English. God forbid! Yeah...I had problems with people who were writing or they have some problem with communication pushing someone.
so yeah i'm coming from the direct culture And when I work with people from Great Britain in particular, I always mention that because despite the fact that...I know i'm aware of that saying and doing my best to adjust. It's still something on the level of my reflexes. Sometimes it can give a very direct feedback for them would be super rude! If you tell them in advance like hey That's what can happen, yeah? When that happens they can react. Then we even discuss how do you do it? and vice versa.
when they talk to me It can be too vague because they are packing with a lot of nice words. And then your like is the positive feedback or negative. What should I do? If you align on that things in advance, yeah it helps.
And then when we give examples and I usually like super concrete examples if different cultures or already noticed people have some individual preferences trying to provide example that are easily understood for them Yeah, experimenting with these different open questions and also always say directly if it sounds too fluffy. You don't like tell me that we will now work on that. so It makes sense for you because If does make sense to your then We are wasting our time here.
So this exercise really helps when you start When you have new people in the team when we have a new environment as well. Yes, or hey used to work like that. now it will work Like what. where do you think and be misunderstanding? How do you see that? And then y'all ready move to this actual doing stuff and don't have to talk too much. Yeah so there alignment is another example From what I would say we can often do on our team levels.
Yeah, unlike some big things like organizational structure actually still should yeah Enable this. informal networks And it should be easy to text someone Easy to understand who works and what then? Like all these kind of stuff. So that is harder to influence the teamwork easier Yeah, I understand. So what came to my mind now when you talked about this is What i like?
When i go To a new team Is uh...to talk About the pink elephant in The room because Often when i come to A Team they don't want to change. i have to bring with me so and Uh..i know that And Now i can do a fancy workshop With a lot of glitter unicorn stuff and so on. But they would think about me like I'm not really here in the real world, but to talk about that... So what did i know?
That they think of it this way-so we can build a first part of trust for good communication with an open communication regarding our plans. You know, when you were saying that I realized we don't have the culture or maybe even further business world. It's not so cool to do something in a group. Yeah, we still have this eye kind of culture and at OP. by the way it's cool to see that. oh I like when you have two facilitators. But do they still have that eye culture?
And uh i think if was more normalized then hey can't use a team work with someone? yeah and than choose somebody who has good reputation. You prepare this workshop, you compare awesome rainbows and everything that you have with the language of that team. And then it's much easier. probably we should do more when we invite new people not given tasks but more pairing or what is called a triangle? when you have even like three people with very different experience.
Yeah, but of course for the workshop that would be a little bit of an overkill? Just try it! Julia thank you very much for these insights and your thoughts about this topic And I think it's a new perspective, maybe on the thing of culture and of the informal networks. How to promote them in their company? And how give more awareness for teams... ...and people who lead us thinking about that. So thank you very much being here at the show! Today when we record this session. OOP is in the future.
It will be released afterwards, but I wish you a very nice OOP. A great come-together there with other people and you'll enjoy it! See ya soon hopefully in real life and have a good day! Thank You was my pleasure also have the best time i've heard. you had even better plans. Thanks thankyou very much bye.