Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and all software people who want to create best quality software. My name is Ritchie. I'm a software-quality coach author & keynote speaker And happy to bring you an episode live from The Hustaf Conference in Budapest. Hustef is one of the greatest conferences I've ever been to. Top quality talks, amazing people and that unique mix of friendly and intense atmosphere you only find at truly great events!
If you have ever get a chance go there seriously You will love it. My guest today is Tibor Jöndes. He's really deep in software testing and software-quality since decades. he was there on the birth of hustef and attended every single conference since then. He's also done a very intense work with the ISTQB, and their Hungarian testing board And I'm very happy that he joined this episode. here too We talked about the role of testers from past to present and future.
What changed in last thirty years? what is still the same... ...and what do we testers need learn for the future when dealing with AI & all other stuff In our complex software world? And now enjoy the episode. It's great to have you here because we are in the Hustaf, it is such an amazing conference. I like so much my first time here and i'm so amazed by all of your people who built this up! positive attitude and good feedback. Yeah, I was part of it almost from the beginning.
so i was participated as a presenter presenting something for my company and representing my company fifteen years ago in two thousand eleven. Tamás Tökkertt was the organizer and conference chair at that time. So this is first Hustef And after two year's on the PC share, and I had some idea how to improve it. How make is much more relevant for testers? And have you made it international? Yeah!
That was my main idea that we wanted present something... We want build a community after fifteen years We are almost there, but we always have to learn something and improve it year by year. So that's what you're doing. so thank-you very much again! It is great here. I like the level of good quality content. also The familiar spirit in this community. Very nice. Thank you so much. You've been testing for over twenty years now all this stuff and know a lot of roles, people how it evolves.
And we want to take a look about the way or how did they test their role? The career changes in these years last year maybe what's coming into the future. so let's get testing industry more than twenty-five years, almost thirty. So when I was a student at the university that was my profession. so i studied some testing and then had my mentor and consultant who also worked in testing. That's what happened when I started. later on joined to my company which is Ericsson.
there were PhD students as part of research activities and we built together with my colleague a testing tool, test automation tools. So from early career I was in testing our test automation. So you know that I am coming from the telco industry and in Telco industry, i think the test automation came into picture a little bit earlier than other industries because You cannot do what...you can't something manually.
but there was very well defined protocol descriptions twenty five thirty years ago And it is very evident to an automated testing not manual testing. How I remember in that time. Bye! As I remember in that time, it was very much divided. Who is a tester and who's a developer? And i was somewhere between them because of this research background Because we created the tool to do some research in testing but It connected with development also.
So my feeling there were contradictions between testers & developers. Finally, and unfortunately I did not really feel that one because... ...I was some kind of glue between the two parts. It's been great to hear it! Because today we say okay.. ..we have work together with testers & developers but you had this idea twenty years ago. I think that was my mission something years ago, we have to break these long distances and bridges. connect them to each other and let's work together.
And nowadays is better, I don't say that it's everywhere... ...and everybody working but i see progress in the last twenty-twenty five years ago. What do you think? what are things that changed this twenty-five years from there? for testers or still the same as we're doing? It's different and same so.. ..I think That we have different tools. So, and usually the tool is very important. What tools do we have?
In in the late nineties We have a lot of programming languages not such we have today but some tools. But you know that the tools was Produced by vendors or there were so many tools. nowadays we have better tools. For example I had good examples for this one. I see now in my career three evolution of AI or model-based testing, how we called it earlier? Twenty five years ago. We call it CATG Maybe you heard a claim, it's called computer-edited generation.
That was ten to five years ago and It was gone. after ten years mobile model based testing came into the picture will work a lot on it. We had new tools so that inspired the evolution that we had another tools which was able to do model-based testing, but I think it wasn't so successful. That's expected because the tools and theory behind those were complex put it into the industry, and then... And this was very hard to introduce in large organizations. Now next step is AI.
I think that AI's better because its much more widely used so more testers can use it easier or understandable but i don't say maybe will change everything. So we'll need. So testers will need behind the tool. It was happened twenty-five years ago, fifteen years ago and I'm sure that now this is the same situation. We are testers we have knowledge to improve our knowledge And there are tools which it's changing. The tools can be better but they help us and not replace us.
Yeah, I think what you mentioned with AI is that we as testers have now it gets easier to understand something. We can ask or put in requirements and reflect them using the AI Or building a model out of it more easily than in former times where we've clicked through all complex tools. So i think it's getting easier for our users but also taking care about thinking process too. I think that we always need to think.
As a pastor you have critical thinking and it's always necessary, put into your... Job and it's necessary. You know that if you are using a tool And the technology, you always have to think through. how could you scale up for large organization? Yeah We don't really know what will work with AI. I think this situation now is better than fifteen years ago because the tools are much more evident. Everybody can use them. So i believe they'll change our job but we won't take their jobs.
So I think that those testers will take our job who are using AI, from those don't use AI. So i recommend to learn and use AI. so for example you can participate in conferences like Ustef or online courses, face-to-face courses. learn about testing theory because it's very important. The AI maybe don't really know the testing theories, you as a tester should know the architecture and what do we want to build up? your testing infrastructure? And the AI will help assist you!
We'll have everything to be finalized but... The theory is coming from the testers. That's true, yeah? You mentioned a learning part and since when you are in this area for twenty five years... I saw the beginning and rise of ISTQB, certification standardization. What is your personal opinion about the impact of the IST QB? Did it work well for the testers as a good foundation or just part of career path? what do you think?
My personal opinion that biggest thing in ESQB job is common language That you know. I mentioned that when I started there was different groups testers developers, yeah Different industries and they everybody did some kind of testing. but the ISTQB standard design that And gave us a common language. Nowadays Everybody knows what is a test strategy who's a test manager?
It think it very important as main thing nowadays IST QB also changing so introducing a lot of specialist models or modules and you can go to that direction which is very close. And what I start mentioned in ISTQB, we are coming from different industries. You know that I came from Telco. Telco is a closed industry. We're testing something years ago. I started, for example in Etsy the Eurokian Telecommunications Standardization Institute and we had different acronyms.
We have a different theory which was very much based on protocols and telecommunication protocols. but when i joined to ISTQB I saw that we have Very similar things But sometimes we use a different language with different acronyms The idea behind it is the same. Yeah, I think that's one like to have the same speech and vocabulary... ...to talk about what we are doing there in the quality industry or testing industry.
And when i talked with you.. ..I realized learning was a very important part of your career Also building the Hustaf as one learning platform too, to get learned from each other. But what do you think a tester nowadays should learn? What are skills we have to deal with in the next years?". So now I can ask that as people manager... You know that Ericsson and I am a People Manager! And usually i got this question at the board – what should they learn?!
Yeah… the different learning for a technical part and other people. So in technical parts I think everybody should know their basics, this is foundation. then you should know that. where are we in which industry I think is good. It's also very good if you learn automation because automation is coming and which is evident the AI, Because AI can help in any cases. If you are in automation or non-automated area then You should learn that one. So this my suggestion.
And if we don't speak about the non technical part We need a special ability communication as we all know, that how to convince. You know usually you will present the bad news and present the bad news, because it does not mean that you are a good guy who can find a real bug which can destroy your company or product later. So I think communication skill is also important for personal skills and critical thinking.
I know a lot of testers, here if you look around there are testers and i think we have some common language. so i like to speak them because we're thinking in the similar way. And that's what we have to say. then how can we find bugs? How can we think... If we see something everywhere in our life So.. What i hear is all soft skills. they still Be there, we have to learn and improve them for ourselves.
The communication skills are critical thinking maybe even more now in the AI world but at the tools they're changing. so we learned new tools with some new techniques like it was every year before. So that's what you choose. And I think... We should learn the ability of learn. How can you say, now today we don't know that what will happen in five years ten years fifteen years?
Maybe there'll be a lot new languages and new tools or techniques but if you are open to learning something new then it's okay to start it. So in ISTQB and in Hungarian testing board we also started this journey, so we know that We have to improve ourselves always. And now here for example In the conference with present a new tool which is connected To the IST QB practical tester. This is an AI based tool. You can learn and take the exam within The same tool.
you Can Start using It answer for the question, you can learn everything and finally when you feel that okay I am ready then you can take the exam from the same tool. And the AI behind it will help you to learn it ,it will correct you .And i think its an evolutionary thing but as mentioned is a help. so always people the test that is behind it.
So for that one, It's necessary your critical thinking Your ability to testing Open mind approach and everything, but the AI will help you to learn better faster than more efficient. Yeah yeah that's great that you mentioned it because what I see when a Hungarian testing board from...I know a little bit about the IST QB is also on one side learning with all the standard but they have community part of them as well this is very special for my perspective.
Hungary and that used to have started it here with this community approach a long time ago. And now we have such learning platforms like the Who staff? Yeah, very much believe in communities. so if you look around more than ten people is here from the board, from the Hungarian testing board helping us at our booths. Helping in the organization of the conference and this is same as ISTQB where that in the Hungarian Testing Board involved a lot of working groups. we involve almost every reviews.
so I guess Ten, twenty percent of the reviews is coming from our board. So we are everywhere and We're coming from a relatively small country less than ten million people. And maybe we have the biggest community in ISTQB here in Hustaf. That's our aim, and we believe in it. We can build something which we think together... ...and can motivate others within the group. Yeah that is so true! Since you are with Hustaf for a long time,... Do you have one big wish on this community?
Which happens next year or two years or five years? So do you have such an idea of what to see here? a lot so we you know that nowadays world is changing and we need some answers for that one in case of who's death. I think we have to continue the journey and should be much more international. We are really good, so we think that in the top three conferences of Europe some guys here said they were the best.
it's very personal but thank you for those who say that officially i can't say that we're in the Top Three. That is all who want to be more open, involve more guys into our community because HUSTEF is really a community. It's not only a conference it's a community and within the board we are opened for other activities also which also build a community. For example now... testing hackathon or so-called test aton and we start discussing it. how can we do that?
one because its also build a community. And maybe, We call those guys who was not part of our community till now Because Not everybody like to come to the conference Or be in standardization In IST could work but maybe like test automation during the night because it's a fun. So we would like to be more open and include them, so that is my vision within five years or ten. Well, somebody says software testing. This is HDB. Yeah That's that should be a great vision.
So we have to call two actions here for the Hungarian people who want to join The community come through there and testing board And four or international? People do they call for paper and coming into their who stuff next year. We are absolutely open. so please submit to the who staff and You can join to the Hungarian testing ball. you know that we have three level membership that the first one is a so-called community and everybody could be part of this community.
So if somebody thinking, okay I want to be in the community of Hungarian testing board let's ask us. we will put him or her on the mailing list. then they'll get lots of requests for example some translation. step by step he or she can learn and be much more in the community. And later can be a member, full member of the board. So that's how we are thinking. Yeah great so hopefully now attract some people who join this community too?
I do hope more people will enjoy it and here in Ustap its also possible. usually there is lots of people coming or visiting us asking them hey guys How to become part of your job. For example, how can we be part of the organization and who step next year? We are absolutely open for that one! Thank you very much to join here the show that will give your experiences of last twenty-five plus years in software testing career and about learning stuff, what changed with this testing role.
Thank you so much for coming! It's a great pleasure that we are here. Hopefully next year too... open. Thank you so much!