Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and all software people who want to create best quality software. My name is Richie. I'm a software-quality coach author & keynote speaker And happy to bring you an episode live from The Hustaf Conference in Budapest. Hustef is one of the greatest conferences I've ever been to. Top quality talks, amazing people and that unique mix of friendly and intense atmosphere you only find at truly great events!
If you have ever get a chance go there seriously You will love it. My guest today is Linda van der Voren. She is an experienced quality consultant and a baritone saxophonist. Why the saxophone is important for her testing career, she will explain later. in this episode We talked about mental health especially the imposter syndrome.
Linda shares very personal stories About the Imposter Syndrome & Mental Health And I think that's great role model when it comes to openness and telling clear statements about how you feel and your strategies. And now enjoy the episode! Hi Linda, great to have you on the show here. Thank You! It's nice to be here. Yes it is great. I saw that at your pre-meet up of Hustef.
Your talk was amazing and i got so much information because... ...you had same problems as me I always confronted in my project. So its a great thing That now we can share another knowledge nugget for our community. We talked upfront what were talking about And you mentioned imposter syndrome And I said, oh yeah it's a very important topic. But get us in there. what is it?
Imposter syndrome is the conception that you cannot do something despite evidence... ...that you have and can't do anything about it! And i've had actual evidences of an imposter in many ways.. ..and to battle for my career and accept myself as someone who I am It's been a long journey. Does everyone have this imposter syndrome in it? I think people do, there are always things where you're in doubt if they can actually do that.
or sometimes when we write a test plan and i'm just writing stuff then what if someone finds out about me writing something? Apparently some stuff is for me writing a test plan. And that's what I'm good at, but in doing it... ...I doubt myself and many other things! Yeah.. I can think of that. many can relate to this because Especially when you're good in something, then for ourselves it doesn't really have a value because we are good at it. But if don't know that?
Yeah and I have imposter syndrome about couple of things with people who usually doubt If i can give an example to eating disorders. For me eating is always challenge. every time I have meal It's the challenge from me Because I have anorexia So I am very good at just not eating for long periods of time and i also have a binge-eating disorder. And, I had therapy couple years ago... ...and currently in the state where I can eat but everytime there is food.. ..I have to think!
Tell myself that if you can't eat this then stop eating. This food will make me sick. fat, like one meal is not going to. and I know i am fat. And the eating disorders come from twenty-five years of unsuccessful dieting... ...of NOT wanting to be fat but.. ..I still AM! So in the end I chose to be ummm fat BUT HEALTHY!! I have doctor's checks, I am healthy but.... My relationship with food is still weird, but every time like we are at Youssef and there's this lunch buffet.
And I see people getting lunch and eating it... ...and i keep thinking how do they do that? Then I'm like oh look!I am having the lunch!! I feel like a true imposter.. Like Is This How People Eat Without Worry?? So That´s Something That Yeah Chases me daily. Yeah, yeah thank you that you are sharing this here. so I think it's a very personal story and ii think we often have such a personal thing in us which is... We have to deal with it! And its great to share it.
maybe there one strategy to come over or what your strategies too? I found out if just share about The worst thing that can happen is people say, oh I'm so sorry. Or they say your story helps me and That's why i created my first conference. talk ever was about imposter syndrome And all the ways i suffer from it All the tips i thought to deal with It And its a powerful story thats really help lot of peoples but Its difficult because My audience gets like an emotional bruise from it.
It's very tough to hear all those struggles in twenty five minutes! When I think of my life and working career, how can i determine that am now dealing with an imposter suit? What are typical thoughts you have about this situation? For me, it's dealing with my internal critic castor. The little voice inside of my head that says mean things to me all the time like especially just now during lunch Are you getting three sausages? Oh no Yeah They were great sausages.
I ate them up But um i've learned to listen to the voice identify the voice and It helps me to Understand when its divorce or what is my own thoughts. okay To me they are two separate things, because my own thoughts don't harm me but listening to that voice does. And I've given the voice a nickname... ...I have given it like metaphor. It's a famous person from a movie Silence of The Lambs.
That Voice is Hannibal Lecter Because its very mean and says the meanest thing with slight smile on his face. Yeah, very good metaphor for that. For me it really helps to determine what am I listening right now? And usually i start listening when my basic needs aren't met When im tired, hungry or thirsty. Hungry is difficult because i don´t often identify hunger Because of all the dieting. Im learned to ignore it. But if i just feed myself water and rest It's much easier to tell the voice.
I hear you, but i'm not going to listen to you. Yeah yeah okay and do You have also when you're gonna talk to people? And here they are their stories. When we look at our career or role of tests that were what are there typically in poster syndromes like In our work? daily daily daily work. Yeah Yeah Um when you are naturally good at something Like for me it's easy to write a test plan. Yeah, I don't think about as much. I just do it and people are happy with it. so That's good.
But the minute I start thinking about something that comes naturally to me, ...that is when...I started doubting and that was when the imposter kind of creeps in. And especially a professional setting where you start doubting things which are just easy for you. You can get downhill really fast because maybe you're just good at it but not actively realising that you were talented on this particular thing? Yeah! Sharing is one strategy of overcoming this imposter syndrome.
Hopefully you have some other tips for us to deal with that. Certainly, yeah. One of the other things is Nobody sees all your flaws but yourself. when you see yourself up close in a mirror. You're like oh This is me. But most people see me from this distance and you don't see all those details And you don' t see my thoughts. So, when I start doubting what other people think of me or how I come across... ...I know that it's bad for me to think my own mind should follow.
Most people don't look that close and they are okay! That is a good realisation right? Others do not see much from you than I do. Yeah And another thing I've become very aware of where my comfort zone is. We all know that magic happens outside of it, but outside your comfort zone was uncomfortable and i have started to look at the comfort zone as more not like a solid line which you had to step out off... ...but like a rainbow!
And on some days.. ..I can do one color with one toe But in other day's ,i could just go through the whole other side and be okay. Yeah yeah....and try to be aware how ok am getting out of my comfort zone. And on most days I'm completely okay far outside it now, but there are also days where i should just stay in and take good care. Really helpful.
I think there are all the things you mentioned that have a lot to do with self-awareness, which is telling me something in my head or body and how much can i go out now today? But a lot of people I know, especially in this technical area where we are working they don't have good contact to themself. In this way... Also you didn´t used that? Yeah but how did your learn it? I learned that in i think couple separate ways. Right now let's start with now and then work back the best.
Right now I'm in therapy because when i was younger, didn't learn how to regulate emotions. So right now with therapy on learning that... ...I am forty-two and it's mind boggling how many layers there are? Like anger issues. I also spoke about it yesterday in my talk. how anger Issues got me the insight that i should stop trying to do test automation because It just makes, me angry and not really good at it. And Every time something bad happened Anger would pop up?
That Would Really Influence My Life and My Quality of life and My Connections with People. and I Broke Through That Chain I think Nearly Ten Years Ago by doing a coaching training. I learned about what is leadership, What Is Coaching? How to actively listen respond and where the assumptions are in that communication. And then i learned That i didn't really actively Listened people A lot and i assumed About what they meant alot. The Assumptions were always bad about me.
So By learning how To do that Communication i Really Got a few Steps ahead trying to figure out how all of this works. And I guess it all started when years ago, before I was test or even... ...I think this is twenty years ago? I'm getting old! Hello! Hopefully we're not there. We are working in a workplace where I often came in conflict with my boss. My boss sent me to a communication training like please learn how to talk to Me and i never learned, How To Talk To Her.
we were just always In Conflict. but in that Training i Learned A lot About um...how? I personally degraded myself And therefore whenever someone said something to me i would Always be Like No But So Unpeeling That Whole Onion too. right now it's yeah Self-discovery. Learning to accept compliments, very difficult still.
Yeah dealing with emotions it's... I like the metaphor you had for the audience because well i did a lot of coaching learnings too and i always liked that we can put one One onion part away, but there's another one and then we can go deeper. And it is a process to all over the safe awareness about how to deal with myself in my lifetime To get through the core of the of the onion and then every time I'm surprised There's not a layer. yeah Yeah that's true. In every layer.
there has been a big lesson for me also How to deal? With feeling like an imposter all the time now. Imposter syndrome sometimes well-known word in some communities. When did you realize or was there a moment when I said, ah this is it and i have to deal with it? Was that a moment of more process like fluent? then after looking backwards... You see okay.. This is impossible! I remembered the moment where I realized what's going on had to do with it.
I just finished my testing training And I never went to university. Goed college, didn't study. So i finished middle school and then tried the study. But as soon as in Netherlands it's mandatory learning until you're eighteen Then you can quit! And turned eighteen and really hated my studies. I was training to become a primary school teacher And found out that don't like kids. So that's a big problem if you're in front of the class.
I started getting nightmares about being in classrooms with children all the time, and then i figured... ...I need to stop school. so I did! And after about eight or nine years I got into testing. After training when my first assignment was sent there they asked me like hey Why did you study? and that's the moment when I realized this question is going to come towards me so much? And in my first few First few employers, when I was a tester they always said yeah In a couple of years.
You're going to have to get that degree will help you with it. but somehow I never got to that point and Throughout the years its become from feeling like an imposter for not having The diploma To actually being kind of proud of it because I've come a long way as a tester and i'm now an experienced test manager, yeah And I do really well. Yeah not having it didn't bar me at all.
so That was the first moment when I realized I'm going to have to start dealing with it Because this question is going to come up? I feel insecure about It's. I feel lesser than my peers And it took many more years to realize that I am not less. In some ways, because i wasn't trained in a certain way... ...I can think way more freely and creatively about problems. That usually helps me. Then it bothers me.
Yeah, I can totally relate to that but even though not... ...I just went from school to IT and i know this question. so what did you study? No! I didn't study anything. So yeah great how do you learn to deal with that? Yeah, I've learned to build it into a great story. I like tell stories and It is a good story because factually my saxophone got me in testing. so that's fun story. cover up the fact i wasn't trained. We want hear this! How did you get there?
Well, when I was twenty-two my friend Ilse said hey you should come play in an orchestra with me and i'm like yeah it's not for me. but she persevered. She really told me no look we have this concert... And at the concert? She had a little solo and did amazing! It was wonderful. they played more songs than just her solo and at some point this big bass tuba guy walks to the front sits down, he plays a solo. He played the teddy bear picnic!
And I loved that tune...I don't really remember the cartoon it is connected with but i love the tune..and then if you could play that that's amazing. she was like hey why dont'you? Then she said she plays an alto saxophone And she told me here, try mine. It was like eh dude I don't know this is not my thing. and then She said no but we have courted rehearsal for saxophones on Tuesday. please come to the place and Then you can see the baritone as life baritona Don't know what that it.
so i went there? Yeah, and then i had that magical moment where the suitcase opened yeah, and i was like Can learn. And then I did. When you're part of an amateur orchestra, You are a part of association as we call it in Dutch and you have to volunteer. We had to do bar shifts on different nights when another orchestra was using our space. At some point. i was doing that bar shift with Joris Meerds.
He is a Dutch tester he's business analyst now And I was nagging him about the difficulty that i had to get anything done in SAP. Because, um...I was doing a job and put hours into SAP for some projects configuration..and it's difficult. you have to take them that way and double click, double-click, double click ahead of this! But then he listened to me and said You should become a tester! This is amazing!
So he put in a good word for me at his employer and that's how I was accepted into training because they usually don't take people without diplomas. Yeah, yeah. But his words helped Because she learned that saxophone In four months And then she was in the orchestra. so please take her Great story That covers up education. When we come back to our testing career I know a lot of testers who are not really good connected to their environment, in a collegial way or social. So what can you say them?
How they deal with if there is such little voice and feeling alone in this environment What do they do? Yeah...I work with trainees. alot People just start testing And suffer from it But i don't know anything alot And I always tell them that this is the most valuable testing time they're going to have.
The less you know about the application, You are going to test or whatever freer and more inhibited way you can look at what ever your testing... ...and you should tell everyone what you think because you see a fresh view! That Fresh View Is Worth Gold and I hope that I create an environment where they feel that.
And, um...I recently was at an assignment-at a municipality Where i got the opportunity to get one of those trainees in on my assignment because Someone needed to set up test automation. That's not me! So..i was really happy he could do it. He is very technically involved And I really gave him all the opportunities to communicate, try fail and to spread the testing words even though it was his first assignment. He wasn't that sure!
After a couple of weeks he started getting more free... ...and i supported it. like do you want give this test update this week? Oh yeah..I'll try! That's an environment that I actively pursue In trainees, but also in experienced testers. It's really nice if you are aware of your qualities But like I know that i shouldn't test ultimate... ...I can talk to talk.. ..but don't walk-to-walk And im very clear about it!
I can advise management and You should do this & This & That And you should hire those people To Do That. And in that way, I step over the fact... ...that i know that I cannot do it. But also try to use my abilities because.. ..I can talk-to-talk! I can speak fluent manager and explain their pain if they don't resolve technical debt around me. establish that framework. And it's also what you said, a part of the self-awareness to know what I can and what i'm not able to do.
where my boundary is. What environment have we got good collaboration in with other people who can something better than me? Yeah around me there are groups giving honest feedback And I keep them very close, because I need that honest feedback. The negatives and the positives... ...because my mind is not fair! So you really have to get it from elsewhere. Not everyone needs this way but I've cultivated a group around me carefully.. ..because i do need it.
Honest feedbacks are so important with this. It's good for an inner circle who has... Delivering that and good. That's also one of my tips in dealing with imposter syndrome. Yeah, but you have to be cognizant of who do ask feedback from? And why are you asking them feedback? yeah every time I asked My parents should i change my job they say no No You Are steady where you are. this is what you know. But In all Of Those Cases it was better for me To Change my Job.
but They Say no Because They love Me and They don't want my life to Change. So the people I should ask aren't my parents that don't want me to change. They are people who challenge and know how much more i could grow, they do not see in a workplace. Choose what you take feedback from. That's great, thank you very much. Linda it is a pleasure to talk with you. I like that your so open in the life. we don't see this too often on a text-based basis. What people should do? We all should!
Even more because... Humans. and yes, we have to deal with that. And we can help each other. So I really found it very valuable that you give us some tips and some insights. How can we deal was imposter without a inner voice chatting around this day? Thank You very much. thank you enjoy the rest of the conference, and i hope We will Have another episode in The future too.