Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and software makers who live quality as an attitude. Get fresh ideas & sharp insights To grow your mindset To learn new methods And drive real change in how we build software Better software and better teams For a better world. Hi I'm Ritchie, software-quality coach keynote speaker and author. My guest today is Mary Lynn Manth.
Mary Lynn is an independent consultant and professor emerita at the University of North Carolina. She focuses on one of the most challenging topics in tech & business change. she runs workshops, then speaks that companies like Microsoft Apple or Amazon. Her specialty is helping people move ideas forward even when there's resistance And she brings decades off research, teaching and practical experience to the table. In this episode we talk about change – why good ideas alone aren't enough?
Why do people resist change even when it clearly makes things better? How can a sceptical team member become most valuable one? And why does change fail if you focus on logic or ignore emotion? We look at real strategies to lead change from any role, whether you are a test manager or a tester. Or just someone with an strong idea. Marilyn shares how to engage skeptics create emotional connections and communicate beyond bullet points and powerpoints.
You'll walk away with tools to lead Change With less resistance and more impact. And now enjoy the episode. Hi Marilyn, nice to have you on the show here. Thank you! It's great that we did a keynote today of the OOP conference about change in resistance and ideas. Resistance is big part for software testing community where testers often want new things or get new tools. Yeah, it's not often easy to get them into the team and work. And so I'm happy to have you here and talk about this topic.
how can we make these change? My favorite topic changed! So yeah just let start. why maybe is it so not so easy for us To Make This Change If We Will Have A Good Idea? Oh, well that's really a big question. So it can be easy. Yeah there is this misperception That people don't like change and thats not true. We all make changes in our lives. we choose to Make Change And Good Changes. so its not. the People dont Like Change.
They Dont Like The Process Of Change Even Changes That We Choose In Our Life. Still There Are Headaches and challenges during the process of getting from the old to new. So in organizations, when you're told there's going be a change it wasn't your choice then that extra problem is okay. I hate the process because its full of changes. It creates chaos And now i'm being asked do something. So, I think that's what people have to keep in mind.
That it may not be about the change but maybe more of a process or change and there is where organizations need to manage this better. Why? What does it do with me if i get these changes then? Yeah so that was like my first keynote. why people don't like it? You can think of it as your human body, your human mind is always looking for equilibrium.
Always looking for balance and so anything that creates something that pulls you out of that balance gets hard And a change can also change your identity. So you're used to doing one thing in the organization and being one thing In The Organization and suddenly It's Something Different. So even something as wonderful as agile, you know software development and all the wonderful claims about it which are in large part true but it changes what people do. And so why would anybody really like that?
You know when they're rocking them rolling just fine with what they want to do and sometimes It's about the leader of change. The leader is not communicating well or connecting well with the people. And it can also be about the fact that, um... People are tied to The Old Way and so they see a lot of value in The Old way. and when you're going through the process of change all those things go wrong. and They saw The Oldway as being perfect.
and So now You've created something That isn't Perfect because It's In The Process Of Be becoming something. so they'll complain about that. So there are many reasons. people Create, you know chaos. They create some of the chaos and the chaos is created during times of change. But the bottom line is it's not about the processes in a technologies but the new process as new Technologies. It's about the people.
I mean That's really what you have to manage Is The People and understand them, and help them care about what you're talking. And is it also the fear of uncertainty? Fear of the unknown... Yes so a lot of psychologists will say everything comes down to fear! All your actions that take in life are all about this or that. So my work is called Fear Less Change. And that doesn't mean you should live your life without fear, but it's less fear.
so the leader being able to manage that fear and help people through that fear hopefully create less fear. This morning I was talking about skeptics in that if you are leading the change, your most likely whether want to admit it or not. You're afraid of skeptics. Afraid of people resisting and why wouldn't they be complaining about things? So you fear them because you bring something new. so there's this back-and forth fear going on. then just comes into a standstill.
But there are ways to manage that, and they're ways to help the skeptics. And other people who are not as skeptical but still struggling To go through the change. because if you don't manage the people, if they don't feel seen and heard your change is constantly going to be ambushed. I think a lot of people who hear this podcast can identify with these situations so that their leader wants some change.
maybe we or another one on team it's very sceptical about this conflict then still stands until nobody moves anymore. So how can we overcome this? You have some tips for us. Yeah, there's a lot of tips. so one of the things that you have to recognize is that change is very emotional for people and people take it personally. And I think the first error that companies make as they talk about the change in How It's Gonna Help The Organization and That Makes sense!
Of course want to do that But people are thinking about how it's going to affect them personally. And while if we have an organization of ten thousand people, We can't go around and talk with each person About How the change is going to effect? Them there's more that leaders Can do To talk about change at more Of a micro level how It will affect Each person. so i think That's one of The big things that Leaders of Change need to understand.
And then, of course there is the dealing with skeptics and how to use the skeptics. The skeptics can provide valuable information. people think okay she's going to talk about how to persuade the sceptics...how bring them over our side? That could take a lot time To do things that are never gonna happen. they may not be persuaded but the skeptic are seeing that you aren't seeing, because you're all excited about the change and your seein' the value in the change.
And the skeptics are not seein it that way. so we can actually put the skeptic on our team and ask them periodically what's wrong? What do we missin'? So then they feel heard so their not as likely to ambush um...and there also your treating. with respect they may not even be as likely to complain. So when it comes right down, change is a very emotional thing and we tend to talk about it as just a cognitive things.
give people information then give them more information than give the more information And Then People Just Push Back On That Information Because The Information Is Against What They Believe Should Happen And Than People Throw Their Arms Up In Defeat. Oh, they just don't understand or um... They're just-they just don' get it and.. Or their just being stubborn. Their digging in there heels And the truth is we are not giving them information.
We probably doing a good job of that But were not taking next step to help them care about this information. There's variety techniques you can use To pin into emotional side what people thinking. That's the information side, but also what they are feeling. So creating more of an emotional connection with people and I know that sounds kind of woo-wooey And it also sounds kindof scary to do in the workplace What you want? To create an emotional Connection.
But for example there is one technique called imagine that where You bring People In A Room and you start you ask two questions. The first question Is How are things going? What do you see out there? and then you might narrow it down to some particular area. And people just start discussing all the problems, they bring up their own problem They give themselves a little wake-up call on what's going on. Then after we get them talking about that You feel okay...they really understand.
There're problems around here. The second thing is Okay..what would happen if We did X is the change, the new idea that you want to bring in. And then you get them starting to think about imagining, imagine that possibilities. and so there I've seen magic happen when you do something like this because first of all your not telling him anything or asking questions and as they're discussing it their feeling it.
The First Question got them feel angst And the second question got them to feel the possibilities and maybe The idea that oh wait we can make things better. See so, that's an emotional connection strategy. That has nothing to do with giving them a bunch of power points. Yeah yeah I think it is this. that's so true.
when they saw in there In the past for my project wherever last twenty years where some companies get Agile and doing agile work or not off the testers quality people say, oh no we have to do our tests and so on. Some agile peoples just said yeah you don't get it! You don't at an agile... We are doing this.. And there was a lot of missing emotional connection as you said. So I can really feel how good it feels in such process. Yeah, you can also tell a story.
So when it doesn't have to be a true story I mean as long as your clear about that its not but A Story That That Person Can Relay To and Feel It Feel the Story And Just Make Up Something. so Well Suppose You Blah Blah blah blah. or Here's The Story Of John. Who Did This? This In This Do You Relate To John? So um...the thing About Stories is people can feel them and repeat them, remember them unlike a bunch of bullet points on the PowerPoint slide.
So that's another way you could get an emotional connection rather than just cognitive ones. This is often driven or good tool maybe for leaders and project managers. but what if I am skeptical in this process? What can i do? Right, well first of all these techniques can be used by anybody. We talk about powerless leaders in fearless change books. you know?
These are not people who necessarily have been given the power to make change but these are just people with good ideas and they can use these strategies. And then your second question was if I am the skeptic Yeah What's funny. i had someone stop me after The keynote this morning. He was very frustrated that he is the skeptic in the organization.
And, um...he's constantly and it with his words you know talking about things ch-the challenges that he sees and the problems he sees..and he doesn't feel these being listened to. so after I s-after a while of listening to him i thought okay i'm not a psychologist here but what i'm seeing is he's prepared he's presenting a lot of problems And it's clear that his managers or whoever he is talking to are not listening him. I get that and that's frustrated, you know?
Then I joked...I said well maybe could buy them a copy of Fearless Change but That was just kind of joke because even if they read it They may not believe the need for this Or they might not be able to do so. But what i told him Is You're staying too much in problem space And you're expecting the people that your talking to take what's giving them and create solutions from that. So, What would happen if you had some kind of concrete solution or even semi-concrete solution?
Say look I know i've been complaining about this but here is a possibility for solving it. so You can almost see The other side. whatever this guy going through in the people that he's talking to are just constantly being presented with new problems from him. And, yeah and thats gonna wear on them so they probably aren't as responsive. it's probably because he is just staying in problem space and not talking enough about, so here what we could potentially do. What do you think of that?
I think if a lot of these problems are seen as the problem person or negative persons then there isn't much communication possible. when i go to you and say, I always think about that now get all your problems. And I don't want to talk with you about solutions. so... So it's a good part if I recognize that I'm a skeptic person or bring the solution within communication there.".
But at the same time, whoever he is talking to doesn't realize And sometimes I've been told that when people complain and they're actually given the role of a champion skeptic to provide information on things we might be missing, They don't find it as fun to complain anymore because you are the official champion skeptics. I kind of felt for that guy, but I encouraged him to just think more about providing some solutions. It seems like a bad situation all around!
You talked about the powerless leaders? Can you explain it more? what do we mean with them? So my impression is that when I go in to do presentations, people think i'm talking only to the managers or the CIO People. and one of the first interviews we did When We Were Early Days Of Writing The Book was with a chief information officer. And I Was All Excited Because I Thought Oh Wow She's Gonna Have all This Wisdom You Know On Helping People Get Through Change?
And she Said Something Really Interesting. She Says I have no more power to change people's minds. Well, what she said is to rewire peoples' minds than a nineteen-year old intern who's coming into an organization for the first time and sees the need for change.". So that's when we started playing around with the term of powerless leaders.
if you haven't been given the power to make the change happen You have just as much ability To Make The Change Happen As Someone Who Has Been Given That Power because sometimes people that have been given the power just dictate the change. None of your listeners are like that, but you know there are those people out there.
they just dictate to change and so then there's all this dissatisfaction floating around whereas bottom-up change sticks better and so the tools we haven't fearless changed is about how do we get change from a bottom up? from the bottom up, and leaders can use it from the top down too. But that's where the term powerless leader comes from. Great! So do you have another method or tool we can use to get more in this communication part? One example for maybe our business areas.
Yeah I also like the strategy we call shoulder-to-cry on. It sounds a little woo-woo. It's really not. I think a lot of people forget that anytime there is change, any change you gain something and lose something. everybody no matter what the changes are gaining or losing. People who lead the change tend to talk about all these things we're going to gain. They'll say this organization will win if they're enlightened.
They'll remember that you're supposed to talk about personally what people will gain. And so they do that, um... That's good! But they forget to acknowledge What People Will Lose and So there may be nothing they can Do About it. but the act of just acknowledging by saying look Fred I realize this is going to be a different level of expertise for you, and your gonna have spend a lot time learning it. And you've got these other things going on in life. we recognize that really appreciate them.
That's so rare for leaders to do that. And, um...that can go a long way and again it is the way you create an emotional connection to recognize your people are people they're not robots. They have these emotions. You don't need anything uncomfortable but just think in shoulder-to-cry on acknowledging that there has some angst going On. I think it's great to look more on the people and this process, in all emotion of change. A new few are for a lot of people in their business area.
so i'm very happy giving this talk now to our podcast followers here. we will recognize your book In The Show Notes. Can you tell them name? Yeah! First book was Fearless Change And the second book is More Fearless Change, Strategies for Making Your Ideas Happen. Oh great yeah. so we will link it in the show notes and thank you very much for this interview. You're welcome! Thank you. I really appreciate what's fun talking with you For me too and i wish you a safe travel home.
oh well thank you thank you bye.