Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and all software people who want to create best quality software. My name is Ritchie. I'm a software-quality coach author & keynote speaker And happy to bring you an episode live from The Hustaf Conference in Budapest. Hustef is one of the greatest conferences I've ever been to. Top quality talks, amazing people and that unique mix of friendly and intense atmosphere you only find at truly great events.
If you have every get a chance. go there seriously You will love it! My guest today is Lavina Ramchandani. She's a passionate test manager who has been testing for over ten years And always seeking to learn and share. She's also a very active voice in the software testing community. And now I'm happy that she is part of our podcast too!
We talked about thought leadership and what you can do to support your career, become an incredible voice in your domain because we at the software industry have huge impact on our teams & companies by influence culture drive innovation and shaping their future. Now enjoy what Lavina is saying about that and have fun with this episode. Hi Lavina, great to have you on the shore here. Thank you so much Richard. I think i've been meaning to have a podcast with you for some time now.
I'm really excited that it's finally happening! Yeah, yeah. so i think we chatted about linkedin about this a few months ago and Now We are here at the Huestef The fifteenth huestef big birthday party Here today in the evening. Yes And uh yeah and we did an episode now as i am very happy That you're here because also You have A very interesting topic which is Also one of my my passionate Topic Because It' s Of the role of a tester In the environment engineering process & team.
So what is your point there? Basically being a tester and an engineering team, I guess you're an engineer yourself. Someone director at my company had said if you write code... You are an engineer! Being that kind of tester influencing changes, influencing mindsets and supporting your team with what's needed being the right kind of leader a thought leader which is what I'm talking about today. It's very important.
We've got our nine to five job every day and we've got a lot of things happening throughout the day. But do we think outside of the box? Do we think how can we change some sort of processes that we are following from the past? That I'm not really working. Well, or if i'm seeing Some sort of KPIs. they're giving us important information, how do we become thought leaders and try something different to give stakeholders the data that they want to see?
And can provide it at a higher level or C-suite. So its all about these kind of things. It's very important as a tester within team is not just listening for lead. We're working together. That my main motto here. Even though you get title manager leader How are you influencing, but with others around you? So it's all about the testers in your team working together. It is okay to test them as well that what I like do get my hands dirty and its much more rewarding than being a leader for them.
You know, like a manager? Like typical manager. Yeah and the tester often gets into their role that they have to ask lot of people... ...a lot stuff because you get there information. And what I see in practice is that the testers got real single source of truth.. ..for knowledge and connecting people. But how can we get there to let testers go into this role more pushed them a little bit, and nudged him more in this role. I think example is the biggest thing. so serve as an example.
like when they see how you are juggling to get something there are testers that have come back to me said what you just did i've been doing for these last four years but haven't made it. So What Did You Do Different? That's When You Know They Are Listening They're Watching. I Think There Is Different Types Of People There'S The Extroverts And There'S Introverts. None of them are negative, they have their own style.
So I think what's important is to find out how you best communicate with people and get what you want. There are certain stakeholders that always put a door in front of us That we're not interested But there will be ways for going to them or an opportunity And being like this would be good for the team Not me but my team. I see lots of testing people going into teams few bits and bobs for themselves to put it as part of a KPI, just share with them later. But why not do all collectively?
Like what is the main aim? What's the end goal? me asking you this So be smart With your style of talking. I would say that someone told me And thats' what i'm suggesting today As well. That very important. Also bear in mind You're gonna firefight lot people To get one information. try and also understand that you might not get it at the end of day.
It's possible, but if your halfway through is still good like let us work from there onwards And remember that its no easy with a day to day job trying do these kind things and getting information You want...it may take few days months But will be in the end. so I think more about having some hope. question in the right way is my sort of suggestion here.
Other than that, I would say with your team members also try and ask them to go forward with the right kind of questions And asked if you are stuck with something. If a stakeholder has said no to you Why do think they have said no? Like be a coach Be open mind open questions With your team so think better for the next time, because otherwise what happens is managers are always stuck asking for deeper knowledge whereas testers just doing a nine to five job.
and we want to make thought leaders out of everyone right? So that's very important. Some people aren't excited or extrovert so you have to sort coach them slowly And I've seen this in my team. There are individuals that would not speak up much, but they're more communicative now. You know you see a massive difference since you hired them till now. so I think it's all about how you think and how want to follow? And i think its different for every team.
we cannot match with everything as well either. So if leaders trying to match this team or another teams stop doing that thats not going work. Its not one size fits all but just be mindful as well. That's what I would say. and one important thing, silo that is the biggest problem in a lot of tech companies maybe general companies as well. What i feel like. sometimes people like to shield what they know And fair. Sometimes it's fair because you know their specialty.
They don't want share with everyone. But working environment where we are trying deliver quality should matter to all of us. I do not understand why keep data for yourself or processes when we are trying to deliver the same thing, so just be a bit more open and helpful because if you're going help people with what they need then we can all deliver quickly. otherwise you're impeding them that needs resolving. Yeah, how can you deal with testers?
So when do say your coach them or we should coach to get more asking questions what if they're saying I can't do it! Okay i've been through very recently actually. so um We had a supplier and Um...we have massive project but we had uh second part of the main project come up. And When I asked the supplier You're okay with this? It's a migration piece and I think you've done it in the past. Are you comfortable doing it side by side whenever it comes to you?". The answer of big yes, not too worry.
When we came into date... ...the answers changed! It was a bit questionable for me because if your supplier is meant to support us throughout however amazing opportunity for myself because I started testing it. So, was really fun to go back to what i did twelve years ago you know and uh...i just didn't.
but im not suggesting all managers would do that or leaders will do that..I think people we'll get a bit frustrated and at the point of thing whats important understand is Do have right calibre in our team? Because if can't depend on expect them deliver something they're saying no us. Does that mean do we hire more people or do we exchange the person who is in our team? So hard decisions come to your plate, you know.
But it's just a right way of doing this and someone told me actually I'm going name him, I hope its okay Toyer from Dubai my friend He said when i met them recently on holiday And he said When have make heart decision for the right decisions Do It! do not feel bad. You're doing the right thing, but I think emotionally i feel bad because I don't want to sabotage someone's career? Yeah! But you have to take some decisions and it is leading to frustration like they say no what do you do ?
I put myself forward as a tester ,but if didn't wanna do that then we stop the team from delivering. So be strict and try to have the right sort of... People in the team that are doers and they don't change their mind afterwards. Yeah, yeah And I think maybe it's also about having The different types. so i think there are typically tested. They just want to test uh...and Just do this stuff?
There Are others who have more quality engineers or quality coaches and Wanted To Do More Collaboration Stuff. So I Think To Deal With These Roles In A Team Is a Good Way To Do It. As I said, there are loads of introverts and extroverts. And they have the beauty on their own! So with the introverts what they do is make sure to get a job done. He's got a long document.
I always am shocked, but like he logs a lot of things so that when he has to share it with someone else... ...he can just send it which is amazing! Like i wouldn't think of that. But then you have the other people who are more extroverted Who were out there talking to more managers trying To lead. one of them actually said to me.. ..I started with automation testing but now and I've been told to lead It. So do see their difference?
Yeah Everyone has very similar sort of years or experience in the company, but people like to drive their career differently. So I think what's important is when you have coaches and mentors... ...what' s important is that they state what do you want out your career? It can be a zig-zaggy career because if you're confused then you don't know which one is totally fine. But it also could be specific test analyst, I want to become a senior.
Then i want to be come a lead ,I wanna became manager and then C-suite head off whatever you prefer.". For me that was the case. so..i knew exactly what ive wanted but im not saying everyone should know whats they want. So its one of those where u actually support them because Im the coachy types like you said. So ill always throw open ended questions for them to answer what their likes? Yeah. I don't want to guide them, i want hear from them and then when see what they want ill guide them.
yeah so that's my style but there are loads of different types of managers. their styles are different. What do you think is the role of the tester changing now through all this AI stuff? And all the possibilities we have...what would be your thing? will it look like in future for testers or quality people Like husband says? My husband made a joke the other day. He said, you should be looking for another job but Aya is going to take your job. and I was like no!
And I laughed at him saying they'll take your finance job instead. So my vision is to embrace what's coming. I'm not worried or scared as many people are. The only reason being if i am not gonna learn it... ...I won't be able deliver it. I've asked my teams to stop spending time writing test cases when AI tools can support us. We have got internal AI tools, why not use them? Why don't we test them out as well! Like you don't really need... copy-paste what AI tells you.
You have to use your own common sense as well, does it make sense or not? And uh...use it strategically if you know. so I have embraced it. i like using it um but the future? yes of course we can't have AI agentic AI or something. do my job But I think As a human they won't be able to support the look and feel. You know how you emotionally when using an application?
When I talk about accessibility, for example in conferences... Who is going to as an AI person or a robot, how are they gonna tell me? They love the website. Or their feeling overwhelmed? It's too much pictures or too much flashy pictures? No one's gonna Tell Me that. no because it's a feeling of a human. yeah So there isn't part where I will excel very well But there's a part Where There's A massive block where Human can only sort Of take it off.
so i would say use it wisely Use it but use it Wisely and Still use your own common sense because you still need it. Bear in mind that AI is still learning, so... You still need your brain! It reminds me of a conversation I had few days ago about if quality is more and as you said more feeling then all our quality characteristics are fine at KPIs, but they're paying into it a feeling to have good qualities. And I think this is very human thing. so we testers will not do the lander next year!
Yeah yeah... We've got lots of jobs still waiting for us and i know that some companies like startups as well wouldn't look at quality engineers or testers in their first option. They'll only take like data science developers or AI developers and stuff, but You still need quality. Yeah If you're not hiring a software developer in test for instance Then I think it's difficult because the developer cannot be testing their own job, you know It's its bit biased there.
And um...I would just suggest that Be mindful of what your self You know when you are hiring? sort of caliber you're hiring. because S-Dets, for example can help your law. They can develop when you want to develop but they can test as well. so I know the fixation around Only development, only developers can test their own code. But that causes a massive bias.
just like people believe in AI having bias this also can cause bias and testers think out of the box And I've not seen any developer thing out-of-the-box yet Not in my experience. Usually they are very focused on solving their problem. They have other table Yeah! And yeah...and they'd like to deliver what's been told too. So we're ones who go around the bushes We try break it. That is where We come up with the things that we came up with. Yeah, yeah.
Lavina thank you very much for these insights into your mind. and what do think about all of testing role? I think it's really interesting and fortunate to be dealing in this and pushing them into their community here. also on Hustaf Thank you so much for being here! And wish a great conference and hope see later at lunch or evening party.