Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and software people who want to create best quality software. My name is Ritchie. I'm a software Quality Coach author in Keynote Speaker And today my guest is a recommendation by you By The People Who are Listening To This Podcast. You mentioned that i should do an episode with Cassandra.
So we talked about the role of a software tester nowadays about the responsibility, how to gain more visibility and why this is important for next years. And also we talked about why software testers often struggle with imposter syndrome – self-stabbed! Yeah, it took a little while until we get our appointment now here because I had long delays in my schedule and all the stuff.
But now i'm very happy that you are here And just to mention Chris Armstrong was the one who said You have come for the podcast show. Now he's here so im very happy. And yeah, I saw a very interesting topic in one of your abstracts at the conference this year. It was about visibility or more the invisibility of tester and all our software engineering projects. so i find that very interesting into this topic with you. What do you mean by that?
Are we invisible or are more visible, what's your opinion there?". I would say from the responses i got to the Ministry of Testing Club post that I posted before the talk just asking about stopping me currently for making my work and achievements more visible. based on Testers in general probably aren't as visible, we should be. In order to benefit not only ourselves and our careers but are sort of disciplined with the work that they're trying to achieve. so what I mean by this is a lot.
Although they might have worked with testers before, They don't really understand what testing is all about. What we do and especially now as you know sort of this straightforward traditional idea Of testing has growing so much into more like a quality engineering space. There's So Much that We can get involved in That people Don't Really Know About And I think if they don't know it Then It Makes it A lot Harder for Them to Participate.
When We Think About Things Like Involving Other People And Whole Team Approaches the Quality Just Makes All This A Lot Harder. And is it, where does this come from? Is more because the tester stones show up in a way that they will get more visible? or are there problems of whole context. Good question! I think probably comes from both sides. Testers on the whole seem to be quite a humble bunch, which is where I started my abstract.
because we're always talking about imposter syndrome and a lot of us as well don't have a computer science background. A lot of this sort of fell into testing or came in through it via other avenues Which i think has an impact on our general confidence. so when it comes to shouting at work something that comes so naturally to us. You know, we're not generally people to brag without really thinking about it and having a reason to do so.
but on the other side of things as well I think just Some people have historically sort of viewed testing or treated testers as the lesser than developers. And if you can't develop, become a tester that idea which is totally unfair and also bringing in testing professionals maybe being like an afterthought or very last step someone would think to do when starting software company. I think all of this contributes bummer attitude when it comes to testing in testers.
is you know we're already kind of starting from like a further back position than our peers. and so I think that yeah, to answer your question i think the reason sort of comes both from us as testers but also Yeah, yeah. You mentioned the imposter syndrome. it's very interesting because I just had a recording about the Imposter Syndrome as special recording for the podcast too. but people who don't hear that one episode can you give us brief explanation of what the Impostor Syndrome means?
Yes so basically with an Imposter syndrome lying. So as testers, you know a lot of us feel is if we're not really as good at testing as we think we are that We don't really know what we're talking about Especially when other people might disagree with this or say oh well You know I don't think this idea's gonna work out let's not even try it Let's not do it.
When people have imposter syndrome there's that tendency to believe those negative statements and a lot of them come from within as well, saying you don't know what your talking about. You're not good enough at this or experienced enough. these people no better than you do. just keep to yourself Keep quiet And it's the idea that you'll be found out any moment That someone is gonna notice that you are really who you say you Are?
You're Not Really A Good Tester and Everything Is Gonna Blow up in Your Face. I think there's often my problem As you said for testers because a Lot Of Testers Don'T Have This background in IT science and this way. And that's I can relate to it so much because i never saw a university from inside except Stanford, Berkeley on the sightseeing tour of San Francisco.
but uh...and often had to deal at the beginning of my career when I said okay..I'm programmer or later on a tester ...that I have not that background like other people who studied informatics and information technology this way. So yeah, I can imagine that this is a real part of why some testers are a little bit shy in their project environment here.
Yeah and i think as well testing is one of those roles where people say if you're doing it right everything's going well no one notices but make mistakes. then everyone pays attention. so You know, whilst developers for example they have like the actual software product that can show further work or you know product owners. Have like. these are stories at the create They had to features in the app. That you know? The idea is forwarded a sort of gathered their requirements.
four but testers We kind of all other time have the absence of things we have the absent bugs. We have the absences realized risks And of course we can create the artifacts over testing and test plans, test strategies. That does exist but again it's not something that people would automatically care about without having a deeper understanding what testing quality is all about. I think its part our role to teach people attention to the testers, or how can we empower them?
To be more visible in projects and being proud of their work. And tell everybody that they're doing a good job! What are your experiences there? what works? So without giving away all talk I'm sure it will be available to watch online once videos are edited but based on... premise on the idea of show, share and shine.
So to show your work in really obvious simple ways into make it really explicit what you've done but also share things that other people might find useful whether that's resources that you created like notes from a particularly interesting testing session or a testing dashboard that you put together And then to shine a light on your achievements with a brag board.
So some of the really basic things that people can do straight away, and which I think will help to maybe adjust Some of the attitudes within the team as well is just make your work visible on boards. Just like anybody else's work. You know they've got developers who you know it usually their works that takes interstage On our Dure Boards or wherever It may be And then even product owners in business analysts.
They have ready-to-refine column all this sort stuff And in my experience, a lot of the time testers will sort say oh well I'm not implementing. any sort of releaseable features, even though they might be implementing something else or have other tasks. They say I won't put it on the board because its not the same. It doesn't qualify but actually does qualify.
and if people were to see what we're doing whether that's the exploratory testing sessions we are carrying out automated checks for programming start to see that on an ongoing basis, then eventually they might develop more of an interest and say actually what is that about? Can you tell me more about this? or have you been working on. Or can we pair on something together? I think would be a first step Mm-hmm. I think that's a great idea.
to make this stuff visible in the first way, on a technical way with a Gira board or dashboard of something is it? And remember a project where we put the end-to-end tests like a subway plan and see if they are green or red and so on have different names... It was very visual way showing the test results in the test status, but it helps a lot to get more attention for the testers and for their testing work here. Definitely!
And what's quite nice as well is actually where I'm working at the moment... It's company called Bayonix. RCTU had an idea of having our video automated system integration tests running in the office, which was quite nice because that showcases what we've done.
It also lets people see the various products that we have available on our suite as well and again get people asking questions and getting people interested about how it ultimately supports us process of software engineering, it's also very relatable to the part about what are we really doing the whole day. And you mentioned in our preparation call that the tester is not just responsible for testing but so much more and I want go this direction too – What do you think is the testers role today?
Maybe it pays into their visibility as well. We, as I say we can get involved in so much. The possibilities really are endless and i think traditionally when people think about testing they um are talking specifically about testing a physical software product.
there's obviously been a lot in the past years about you know shifting left also shifting right being able to test things before they're actually implemented That wider sort of testing work that we do, not just on the end product so to say but at earlier stages and later stages as well. But then there's also things that we can get involved in with like the processes...the quality of those processes The way that teams are set up.
They see ICD pipelines Even how developers are writing unit integration tests. There's lots of different things that we can do, also on the products ownership side. I recently introduced like those three meagol sessions in my project and so these are things. maybe testers aren't traditionally involved or weren't traditionaly involved in. people might not say oh a tester would probably do that.
but you know as our role is expanding the implementation in the coding, you know I think how we can influence quality has really grown and i think it's a good thing that we can get involved in so much. especially for people like me who are very interested in lots of different things. there's always something I can learn about which is really nice but at the same time not become the person that's solely responsible for all of those things.
Yeah, it should be a team effort anyway but to look as a tester on the quality of such processes like CI-CD or how we're doing things to get better quality into our project is I think crucial in nowadays when we have our fast paced world and doing stuff together. Yeah, definitely and something I somehow forgot to mention as well is a big part of our role.
It's also too As i mentioned earlier To educate the other people in her team on your project And to offer us sort of training and advice some coaching so that other People can develop their own testing skills become a little bit more confident In their abilities? So they can have meaningful contributions to important quality and testing discussions. because Deep down, I think people who don't have tests during their title probably are interested in quality and testing.
They maybe don't realise it just because of the traditional ideas or things they've seen in the past but actually Everyone wants to build a quality product. No one wants it, have lots of bugs or further-to-be some sort of. you know Critical incident and production are something like that. So I think that A part of our job as well is to empower other people And help them to be involved in quality testing topics. Yeah That's true.
It's even more focusing what they say on Learning and coaching this very human part Of the story which i think Is very crucial when we see AI is doing and can help us to focus also on the other side, too. The empathic and learning stuff... ...to have our team get better in quality thinking. Definitely! There is a lot that AI can do for us and help us with. And I'm sure if someone was interested in testing topics, they asked AI about it?
You know what's interesting points or suggestions but there are something about human collaboration working together to share experiences That really has more of a memorable impact. So the same way I personally learned by doing, so it's one thing to read about something.
It's another thing to do that and i think similarly is learning from an AI or together with someone who has expertise in the area like pairing on testing together you know looking at requirements sort of breaking them apart seeing what risks there are. You mentioned some points when we can put more quality into our processes and so on. When I'm now here as a tester at these episodes, hear the podcast... And yeah it's right what Cassandra is saying there but where to start?
Where can i start as a tester in a project to bring in more value over all of your quality and gain my responsibility for quality? First thing to do is observe what's going on and the pain points people have. It's all very well and good sort of saying, oh I'm interested in this particular topic or i've just learned about this particular area.
I want to do something here but if you don't get buy-in from the rest of the team where other people on the project then it's going to be really hard to make impactful changes especially If You know you need Other People support Or you Need them To change Something like a way Of working? Take a step back and see what are the general problems in pain points that we actually have?
In the team or project, What do other people care about And what would they be really happy if we were to you know improve and make better? Then I think that's a really good place. To start Because then You can bring value and show That your paying attention the other parts of the project, like developers and so on. And they have sometimes also a good view on their quality side but no idea how to solve that... But you can take this information too yeah? Definitely!
I think again it plays into the human side. I think that testing is actually a very social thing and it involves talking to people with different areas of expertise, knowledge. Better we're able to build personal relationships with our colleagues, the easier it will be. To have these conversations about you know I was doing this one day and i realized that x thing is actually a bit of pain in. I don't know what do you think if that or just want to get off my chest? You know.
on that way you sort of learn things new your ability pick up on points that you might not have noticed on your own, or you may not realize they were as big a problem. But someone who knows and trusts you takes the step of sharing this information with them so it can be something about themselves. We think about this context and a tester wants to see what's bringing the future for me. What would you recommend?
In which skills should testers nowadays invest, where are they able to do good work in the future? It's a difficult question because you could go along the buzzwords and in trend direction but for me, honestly I think that core skills are most important. so it is like your communication. Your ability to learn. Your empathy...things like critical thinking as well, things that are maybe a little bit more abstract when it comes to how do I practice that? How do i develop that?
and again I think a lot of it comes down to doing it. And first be aware that is something you want to work on and I think that it's okay if at first you are just noticing after the fact like oh, i could have done that or i could've used that as an opportunity. That is a step to realise there are those opportunities there then slowly start building upon them.
I personally can sometimes have a habit of thinking, oh once the conversation is over it's too late for me to say that thing or make that suggestion. but you know we're also free as well if we realise later on. Actually that was an interesting point. maybe something they should expand upon. there's no problem just sending them quick message. hey really enjoyed chatting the other day when you were talking about this it. can we follow up on that? Can we talk about it a little bit more?".
And I think, a lot of the time people are really happy to do that because people want to be heard and people want contribute in better working environment as well. Yeah, working on those core skills I would say is the most important thing. No it's great! There's a nice future for us testers there and to learn and adapt through things that are happening in software projects. yeah That's another good one.
Adaptability as well...I don't know if some of these are skills so much as characteristics but i do think being adaptable and flexible something you can practice too. And I think that when things are changing so quickly, not just in individual software products but the industry as well and AI is the next thing thats coming in.
People trying to work out how to leverage it some people worried about the impact they will have on our jobs etc...and i think a level of almost fearlessness will help people get through these periods, because I think again there are opportunities. You know you can think gosh is that going to take away my job or am i gonna be replaced? And unfortunately there some sad situations where it's happening but I think they're more opportunity.
say okay this just another tool that I could use and put in the tool belt taking advantage of using supercharge my existing abilities. Cassandra, thank you very much for all these insights. I hope we can inspire a lot of people to think about their visibility and responsibility in the teams learn more to have more impact in this software world, because I think every tester and quality people are so needed.
In the next years and months... So maybe we can inspire someone to go into the direction of show-more up or share their results? Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge here on the podcast! And hopefully see us soon as a person too at a conference to meet you there and chat about the topics. Yes, thank-you so much for having me. it was a great conversation. I hope people feel inspired! Yeah sure Thank You very much. have a good time.