Hey, everyone. Welcome back to software social. I am so excited to have with me today, Lucie Baratte. She is co-founder and art director of logology. You have probably come across logology on Twitter because of her husband and co-founder Dagobert Dagobert Renouf who makes, so many funny, um, memes about, running a company. So Lucy, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so excited to have you.
Thank you to have me. I'm very happy to be there. Thank you, Michelle. And hi everyone.
So why don't you just first, tell us a little bit more about logology. You guys started it in, fall of 2018. Is that right?
Yes, it is. Fall of 2018. The first year was building the product, and we really launched the product in the spring of 2020. And logology is a website where you can find, a branding for, um, your startup in a few clicks, in a few minutes. And it will automatically, propose for you, ideal or, well, we'll try to make it the most perfect logo proposal for your startup, according to your values.
So when you go on logology, and you are looking for a logo or looking for a branding, uh, identity, you can just take the, quiz. It's a creative quiz, I would say. And the quiz will help you define your personality, your startup personality. And after that, you have the logo proposals, which matches, the personality of your startup and your activities of course, and sector and activities.
So, so tell me, where did this idea come from? Like how did you guys, get the idea of creating.
Well, it was a long time ago. We've first had the idea of creating a logo, fun and beautiful logo generator in the first place. It was I think, seven years ago. And then we forgot about this. And then it happened again that I was a graphic designer, specialize in visual identity and logo design. And I have to say, I was, wow. I say quite famous in my hometown. And so people were, calling me saying, oh, I loved what you've done for this company and this company.
And I would love to have a brand identity designed by you. And I would say, okay, so the prices I have, warn you that the price is around, uh, 2000 and 3000. And often I knew saying it, that it was too much for for this person, because when you are still employed, you have a full-time job and you just want to try something, you don't have investment for the moment, only your own savings. Well, it looks too much money to, to spend on visual identity because visual identity is essential.
I think it is essential for, uh, marketing your business and make your product loved for, uh, others. But in the same time, it's not like essential in the beginning that you would put thousands of, dollars in it. So I thought I didn't have a solution at this time when I was telling people that I didn't have solution for them because I could not do less.
I could not do a logo, I would be custom logo or bespoke, and the only solutions where, where I go on the internet and maybe you will find things in terrible logo generator, or maybe, well, at least logo generator are awful solutions from my designer perspective, because you don't have the expertise, uh, about branding. It's just random, uh, logo design that you would find anywhere.
Or usually the icons or the logo is not something that has been designed with a concept, with a story it's just like, icons from, non-project. I like non-project, but it's not like logo design, it's icon design and icons are not logo. Well, this is maybe a bit technical, but it is to say that logo generators are on from my perspective, not a great solution, even if they are very cheap. So it's very affordable, which is a solution.
And the only solu, only other solutions that you could find on the internet at this point was, design contests. And as a designer, I hated this and I didn't want people to do that because design contest is very, is a very sad proposition, because, uh, it is, well, just to say, it is like you go on the website, you ask for brand identity or a logo. And I would say like, dozens of designers are gonna work on your project from your brief, but only one will get paid in the end.
So I thought it was completely unfair and unethical, but I didn't have, um, solution for, people with no budget or a very small budget and big and great ideas because I'm fond of ideas. I have to say that too. I'm fond of ideas. I love working with entrepreneurs because they put so much passion in what they believe in and they are full of, uh, creativity, ingenuity, and I really want to do something to help them. So I begin to.
I don't know, I put this idea aside and I didn't know what to do, and when Dagobert be, and I got married, we went on honeymoon. And we went to United States because I'm fond of music. So Dagobert be, was kind enough to follow me, uh, to Nashville and Memphis. And it was gorgeous and beautiful travel trip. And when we were at the hotel, we were, uh, looking at, um, a show, a TV show, called shark tank.
And so you might know it of course, and I don't know how it come, but Dagobert was on the internet. And, and he found something about a founder who had the opportunity to went to go on, shark tank and giving back his experience. And he was, uh, He had launched, logo design online solution. And we begin to think about this, like, oh, so there is a market and something is possible in logo design online. And, so I, I remember that this time, all the people that I could not help in the past.
And I don't know when you are in the United States, you, when it's a road trip, you spend so much time in car talking and, and reinvented the world that we find this idea, like how, why not create a new solution, something different that you could find online. It could be affordable. It could be beautiful. It could be meaningful. It could have, meaning, could tell stories. It could help you.
And you know, when you start your business, when you have an idea, what could be for me, what could be better that to have new shoes to go dancing, a new suit to go to an employment meeting or a professional meeting, like it helps you so much for your confidence. And so when I was in the, plane on the way back, I was beginning to design the website and how could we do this? Because we really had to imagine a solution to get meaningful logo and it was not easy.
So I was working with the key words from each logo and sectors, and that's how it came and Dagobert, and I, we love, uh, we are very fond of, uh, any icon. I don't know if you ever heard about this. It's an analysis of the different human personalities. And so we get inspired by this to create the, quiz. I was working a lot with design thinking solutions in the past to make workshop with my clients. So I invented solutions like this and we create this quiz together.
Dagobert really has a product design vision, which was very most precious for me, who has, I think, a vision of always all the multiple solution, multiple possibles, um, which sometimes complicated. So Dagobert was the one to say, okay, let's make it simple. Let's keep it efficient. And I was the one who always wanted to put magic. I like the idea that it's a bit magical. You discover your startup personality, and then you have logos that matches, you can fall in love with.
So that's the story of logology.
I love that story. I think, you know, I, I also find that we do some of our best business thinking on road trips as well. Like I think there's something kind of magical about it. Maybe you're in a different place, but also there's no distractions, right? There's no mailman coming to the door, there's no phone. You Know, I get car sick. So like, I'm not on Twitter, on my phone. Right. You know, you're kind of just there in one place with nothing else to do.
And it sounds like for you, you know, you had been carrying around kind of this, both the sympathy for people you wanted to, help with their logos. Because you're so passionate about the importance of visual design. But also then seeing that, the solution, you weren't able to solve them, you know, in your job and then, on a sort of bespoke basis.
But then also seeing that the other options out there for people, either were not great from a design perspective, had some shortcomings or from an ethical perspective. I admit like our, our geo code logo comes from 99 designs, but we did it. And I think, well, the first one actually was just made by me and Microsoft paint. So, that was, pretty horrific. It says new code with a little cowboy hat we drew over it. It's like, it is so embarrassing.
Um, Oh, God. Yeah, I'll have to put it on Twitter so people can see it. Um, yeah, all of our branding was like cowboy theme, cuz we were like Geocodio Cody at rhymes with rodeo. And so all of our emails to people said howdy, like, and it was just, it was a whole thing. And it was not very authentic. Right. Cuz like, you know, I'm from Boston and Mathias is from Denmark and like we're not people who say like howdy and y'all all the time. So like it was just, it was kind of a mess.
But we don't know any neither of us as a designer, we don't know anything about it. And I think maybe a year or two later we were like, you know what, we need to have like a proper logo. So we went to 99 designs because we had previously worked for a design and development agency. We knew we couldn't afford, as you said, a couple thousand to design a logo when that was like all our company was making at the.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not surprised.
Like, and I think actually for the software, so social logo, I just used some like. I just typed in like podcast logo generator. Cause I don't think I even really knew there was an option. So I'm like, I'm actually curious, like if I went to get a logo from logology, like how much would that cost?
It would cost $129, uh, for, yeah.
Oh, so that's super competitive with 99 designs then.
Yes, it is . Yes, it is. It's the, the purpose. Yes, it is, is to be competitive with 99 designs and with other, um, even local generators. So you, you sum up it very well. Uh, you find there is two main problems. The first problem is it's not efficient.
It's uh, in terms of like making the logo or like it, or the logo, like the result you get.
It doesn't resolve a problem. When you take a logo generator solution, you still have the problem of design because designing is, is about, resolving problems. And it's about telling story. And it's not easy. Like you said, you thought about the cowboy hats and stuff and realizing afterwards that it was not authentic for you. So telling a story, it's not easy and logo generators usually don't do that. And on the other hand, you have 99 design.
But it is not ethical because, only one designer got paid. So it's I, well, it's not ethical, so yeah, we are competitive. We are, we want to be, uh, you can find the first, uh, logo package is at, I hope I'm not saying something wrong because we just increased our prices last week. That was a little bit, yeah. I was a little bit anxious about it. Like, oh really? Are we gonna do that? It was already working like that.
Right. Let's not ruin it like right.
Yeah. but it's a good thing. We are providing more, images and more fives. Uh, and so the first logo package is that, 79, dollars, the second is at $129. As I was told you, as I was seeing you.
What was it before.
Uh, before it was the first one was $49. And the second was 89.
Okay. So this is like, 30, $40 jump. How Long did you think about that for before you ended up raising the prices?
Uh, we thought about it a long time because many of our customers told you, you should. Yeah, you really should increase the price. Like I'm so happy you should increase the price. And it's like, really I'm sure. And so Dagobert, uh, did a, huge, uh, work about a asking for feedback, organizing the feedback and reflecting on this. And it took a few weeks until Dagobert say, okay, honey, I have the solution. I know the price, exact price at which we can, uh, sell our product.
It's very difficult to find the good price I think, but we also have, another package, which is the established package. It's when you, begin to have a, a little bit more, I would not say confidence, but, since you've got, have a few customers and you wanna go further on your brand identity? I work with the clients to make, a custom version of the logo. So it means like for example, you chose a parrot on our catalog of, uh, design and of logos. And, uh, you want this parrot just for you.
And I can make version of this parrot just for you. It would not be exactly the same as before. It would be enhanced with your specific needs, your specific activity, the specificity of your, uh, personality, because, uh, as you understood, it's like a huge catalog with many, ways in it. I've designed, well, I, I have to mention it was long because, that's why the first year I was working without launching, because I designed, more than 700 logo. Each logo on the catalog was designed by me.
It's not like sourced everywhere and stuff. It's like only my designs. So I really had to think of all the different possibilities. Uh, imagine someone who wants to make a biotechnology startup, what could be, uh, the personality of this kind of startup, what could be the kind of activities? How could I express the idea of cloud laboratory for example, and stuff like that. So if you want, you can go further with me, on a more , uh, logo.
So it's interesting, this like lower version, that's basically like you have two more sort of straight, you buy it, you buy it online and that's kinda, it options like lower tier versions. And then you have this more bespoke version. But I think what's interesting about that is that like, it sounds like they still go through the quiz logo creation process.
So you're not actually starting from scratch with them in the same way that you would, if you go into a design agency and you do this whole brand identity exploration and, you're doing a lot of hands on research and exploration with them, like, they're coming to you already saying, here's our company. We already know we wanna parrot. But like, you know, we don't know about the rest of the colors and color palettes. And like, we want it to look like, the parrots wearing a hat or whatever.
And you're like, oh God, but okay. We'll find something that's a fun parrot. And they're like, yes, a fun parrot, right. But you're not starting from the point of them being like, we want something fun. And then,
Exactly. You, you, you complete. Yes, exactly. So you, you understand, you understand perfectly the, point, and it's exactly this. We can keep it affordable because, uh, audible, because even on the bespoke part, we already have all the information. We are not, as you said, starting from scratch with nothing, which would take long time.
Yeah. So, so, this reminded me, as you were saying about, you know, people who are, you know, maybe more established companies, they need a bit more of a brand identity. This reminds me of a question that I often hear from, other founders, which is, what is the difference between UX UI and visual design? Because I think at certain, point, you know, people, especially if they're doing everything themselves and, and I guess used to use bootstrap, but maybe they're using tailwind.
But like, everything is kind of off the shelf with, templates and they get to a certain point where like, you know what, we want a little bit more, we want better design, right. And they're like, how do we get better design? And there's these different types of design. And so maybe as a, sort of big UX person myself, like we should talk a little bit about what design means. Just to help people kind of get a sort of lay of the land, um, a little bit.
We've talked a bit about visual design, that's kind of, like things like logo and the color palette, is there anything else that you would put in that visual design category, holding the UI UX categories aside for a moment? Like what makes visual design
Um, I
compared to those other two? What does it
Yeah, it's a very interesting question. I would not exactly put UX and UE design apart from visual design and not UE design, at least. I would rather include visual design in brand design, which is the, the biggest, uh, layer above all this, it's about brand design and brand design, uh, is often something that we don't think about when we are founders. And especially when we begin in the beginning, we think of the product or the service we want to provide.
And we don't think about this brand aspect, which is often related to marketing. And when we think of brand, we are thinking of, I don't know, maybe Nike or Coca-Cola or McDonald like huge stuff, which are so big with so many budget on advertising and stuff, which is not, uh, seems to be our world.
But what is important to instant is that, from the moment you put your product or your service, in the world, people will have a perception of it and the perception of your name and the perception of who are you standing for. And so brand design is about creating a bond between your business and its audience. So you need to find who is your audience? What is, or her, uh, personalities and what do they like, what do they buy? What do they stand for? And you have to know who you want to be.
Who will you represent? Who is your brand? Like if the brand was a person. And when you begin from this large vision, you can now look at visual design with logo and carros and fonts and, and chy of fonts and, uh, even the naming. And UX design as part of this, expression, I think it's Jeff Bezos. Uh, well, everybody know who is Jeff Bezos nowadays? he said something. He said something, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's Seattle.
Hmm. Uh, he said something interesting about brand is said that brand is what people, I don't have the exact quote, because I'm not native English spoken, but it said, uh, it said. Um, brand is what people are saying about you once you've leave the room.
Yeah. He's he is some guy from Seattle, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's OK. Hmm.
What people are saying about you, what people think about you when you're not there, uh, how do they figure out, who you are? And it's like, it's like a club or a group and a brand is like a, you know, it is like a, a flag saying, Hey, here is about, I don't know, here is about, uh, reliability, harness, honesty and expertise. Join my club. If you like, it. It's exactly what we try to say. But we are saying this with visual components with, uh, physical experience.
It's so exciting and interesting, I think, but it's very so, and, uh, when you think of brand design, then you begin to see your business as not only something, a product or a service, but as, an entity, something, a person talking to other people. And so you begin to imagine, okay, how is this person dressed? What kind of words vocabulary? Because always like, the copywriting is part of the brand design, but what kind of gestures, uh, where can I find this person? Where does he, or she leave?
For example. I don't know if it's clear, I'm just trying to put in images, this idea that UX and UE design, can be completely put aside visual design, which can be put aside of brand design.
guess. Kind of a like, and I agree with that point, like there's a bunch of sort of overlapping ven diagrams here. Right. You know, I get, and I guess we'll, we'll get into that in a second, but like, in terms of, you know, to what you're saying about brand identity, it's basically what you're saying is that every product, every service, it has a brand identity, regardless of whether that's an intentional one.
So for example, I might dress in, the latest runway fashion going out somewhere, and I'm intending to make a statement about who I am and, and my personality. I might also go somewhere in jeans and a t-shirt, which is normally how I go places. Um, not intending to make any statement about how I look or having really put any thought into it. And I'm just wearing what's, you know, off the basic rack at H and M, which is actually how I dress, and I'm not intending to make a statement.
But I still have, I am still projecting if I were a service, like a brand identity, right? Like that projects something just as much as a, you know, a very loud, gigantic yellow dress, right? Like those both project, something, they both project something different. They both have different amounts of thought that have gone into it, but that still projects something and, and says something about me.
And, says whether people, you know, gives other people a signal of whether I am maybe someone or something that, shares some of their values. Um, so even if it's not intentional or.
Yes. And it depends on the place you are going to. For example, if you are going to a friend close friend party, you will go there with your jeans and t-shirts, and it would be normal and okay. Uh, but if you go there with a, a gala dress with glitter and eye heels, and maybe they will find it a bit overdressed, but if you are going to the met gala or Tocan, you will need, something glittering.
Or on the contrary, you can go to the met gala in jeans and people would, talk about you and saying, oh, have you seen this actress or model or this, woman coming to the me gala line jeans? Like I remember. A few years ago when, uh, cheryl stone went to, I can't remember if it was the Oscars or Grammy or can, or one of these, great glamour event. She went there dressed in a very simple gap dress and the next day, every newspaper we're, we're talking about this.
And this is again about brand because as human beings, we are very sensitive to signs and symbol, and even just a color has something to say to us, it's a meaning. And just in a second, we are, giving a, a sense, a meaning to it, even if we don't think, consciously about it. And we are in a world to nowadays of information, like it was the case before, but now with internet and we are constantly, looking at new informations, new images.
I can't remember the number of logos we are seeing each day, but it's huge. When you think of all the logos, you've seen all the colors, all the ads. So it's very difficult when you are launching a new product or a new business, uh, to say, hi, I'm here. Look at me. I have something to say to you. I want some to share something with you and it's difficult to find it, your place and to be heard.
That's why you need branding, and I have to say, I'm very happy to have, created logology for this reason, because I do think it's so important. And I do think we can help entrepreneurs with this solution, like where otherwise you would not find a solution or you would not. Um, yeah, it's difficult to send out from the crowd.
Yeah, I love your passion for this. That's really coming through. So I guess if we like continue the clothing analogy, just to make it sort of very straightforward for somebody who's like, I need better design, but I, where do I go? What, what do I do? Like, so kind of the, and knowing that there's a lot of overlap between these things and, and broader ideas at play, like sort of the, the visual design is the colors and the patterns of what I'm wearing.
The UI or the user interface is sort of, I guess I would say that's like the features of what I'm wearing, right? Are there zippers, are there buttons? Is it a jacket? Is it pants? Like, what is the functions of it? What are the types of things that I can do with this piece of clothing? Right. And then you have the UX, which, and again, all of these things very much overlap, but it's like, can I actually use this for what I I'm supposed to use it for?
Like, and do I want to do this in the first place? So for example, if my jeans have a zipper, that's great. But if the zipper is on the ankle and not at the waist, then that might be a problem because I can't close. There's no way to close or open the pants. Right. Or if it's a jacket, but if it's, a hot summer day, I don't want a puffy jacket. That's the, that that has a function, but it's the wrong function for what the user needs.
And so, and all of these things kind of, you know, tie together because it's all sending a symbol to someone of, is this a product that, can help you. Right? And, and we, we make that decision not only based on the color and the look of it, but also the functions of it. And then whether we can figure out what those functions do and if they're the right functions in the first place.
Yes, exactly. And as I was listening to you, I was thinking that you are talking about empathizing, uh, with your users with others. And which is, I think the key of design. What could be difficult with brand design is not to forget that on one side, you have to express who you are, what are your values and, um, express emotion. You have to bring emotion in the game. Otherwise it's cold and nobody get interested in your solution. And on the other hand, you have to help.
And relieved a pain, give solution, be functional. And so you have to think what did you want to say and how can you be in the other people's, um, perspective? You always have to take the user perspective. Once you've got this perspective, it's easier to find solution for your brand, and it will be easier to find solution for your product because, it will be tied together. I don't know if it's clear what I'm saying.
Yeah. Yeah. Like you have that in mind. You know, I, often say like, you know, we listen to our customers, but like, customers are not gonna, they're not gonna hand you a roadmap. They're not gonna tell you what the finished product looks like. They're not gonna tell you what you are capable of building, and that's fine. That's not their job like their job, you know, if they have one really is for you to listen to them to understand what those problems are, right?
Like your users before they were users, had a problem of, they wanted a logo for their companies. They couldn't afford to pay 2000 euros for one. Right. It, wasn't their job to tell you the solution here is logology. But if you went and just tried to, I want to create logos for entrepreneurs, but then you went out and did that without knowing there were these gaps in the market and why people wanted to do it.
And, and maybe there's this people, you know, down at a lower end who just wanna pay starting out $50, but then maybe there's some people who want something a little bit more of bespoke, like you would not have had that context, that understanding of what was to the customer, without, that context. Like there's this framework that I often refer back to from Marty Kagan, who's the head of Silicon valley product group, who's a big product leader.
You know, talking about the key elements, of a product. And let's see if I can remember them off the top of the head, but this is, is valuable, viable, feasible, and usable, which basically means that, you know, only the, customer can determine whether something, a product or service makes is valuable to them, whether it's something that they want to pay for that it solves a problem. And they also can only determine whether it is usable, right?
As I said, you know, if I can't figure out how to close the jacket, it doesn't matter how pretty it is. Like, it doesn't matter how cheap it is. I can't use it. If I need one, like, it doesn't matter. But then, only the company or the entrepreneur can figure out what is feasible for them from a sort of technical and resourced perspective for them to create. Right. Like this would not have been feasible if neither of you was a logo designer.
Even if it's valuable and usable by people, you could have drawn out this whole website, but if you, didn't have the ability to spend that year making the logos, maybe you can hire someone for it. But like that becomes a much bigger challenge. It's less feasible. And then also what is viable in the market, which is something that you guys are, still figuring out.
But so it's, the customer determines whether it's valuable and whether it's usable and the company determines whether it's feasible and it's viable and you can't have a successful product without, the combination of, all of those things. I
Exactly. I think it's the combination of vision and empathy. Like you have to always deal with this. It reminds me that often when we speak of the visual design, we will go with our own tastes like for example. And it's very common or, current example, uh, among designers, the customer or the clients come and say, oh, I love purple. I want a purple logo.
And once you begin to dig in the values or the kind of company it is, you say, mm, I don't think purple is good for you because purple is about, well, it can be a lot of thing, but purple is about transformation and magic and originality. And, um, so maybe for your bank solution, it could not be the best solution or maybe it is be.
Think our bank is purple, actually.
It can be purple. I'm not saying I'm not saying that
but they're also transforming banking, right? Like they are, they are transforming banking. It's all online. I don't have to go into a branch to send a wire. Right. It's a very fresh color for a bank. It's not an orange or a Navy blue, like which you would.
Like the traditional bank design, uh, maybe in the future, we'll see bank logos or bank branding with, Barbie pink and it will be, I will think you see a very fun bank maybe. But it is to say that you, when you think of your brand design, when you think of, yeah, your product design and stuff like that, you have to come from both perspectives. Not only the perspective of your clients, because as you said, clients will not give you the solution.
You can't ask everyone in the street saying, what colors do you do you like for a bank? And maybe everyone will say blue, and it's not the color that you need. And you cannot come. Also neither from a place saying, I want purple because it's the favorite color of my daughter. And maybe it's not relevant for you. So it's the same. When you, when you build a service and a product, you need to combine vision and empathy.
Yeah, I love that. So this has been really fun chatting with you about logos and design. And, I feel like I've definitely learned a few things about, thinking about brand design here. It's Michelle here, so I ended up having such a good conversation with Lucy Baratte that we decided to extend the episode and, combine it into two parts instead of, just one episode. And so you can listen to the second part, of that episode next week.
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