Colleen. I am dying to know how the Refine launch went.
Okay. First of all, let's not call it a launch because it wasn't really a launch. It was
Letting people know they can buy it things.
Right. So it went poorly.
No.
But I don't think that, I don't want to say poorly. I don't know if that's the right word. It was a good step in the right direction, but we did not get any sales based off of that email.
Did you get any sales after that email? So how many sales have you had?
I want to say five total over the course of the product. So we didn't get any, and all five of those people like had found us on Twitter, or knew us. So we did not get any stranger money.
Oh, um, I've been like bingeing hammerstone don't podcast this week. Um, I feel so bad we haven't been able to make that recording happened by the way, like we have, so slammed. And like, I was just talking to Mathias earlier. It's like, yeah, like where are we going to do that this week? And he's like, yeah, I can like no, we can do that. And I was like, but it isn't it going to take, several hours to deploy it.
And we're in the middle of a massive server migration and like, and it was like, oh yeah, I guess so, so it was like, okay, so maybe next week we're going to do it. Like.
I think here's what I think the deal is Michelle. I think that our primary product is not for Nova. And we have created the Nova integration for people like you and we have another Nova client, but ultimately, you know, Aaron and I talked a little bit about this on the hammer stone podcast, which hasn't come out yet, which is why you haven't heard it, but ultimately the way Laravel does its pricing.
So, I guess the way Taylor prices Nova and other Laravel software packages is he has a huge reach. So things are very, very inexpensive. And so there is a theory. We have a theory that like Laravel Bell devs expect really, really good software to be really, really cheap. And so Nova is only $300, once. So for us to come in on top of that with no marketing with just, hey, we're nice, you should buy our software and to price it at a thousand dollars annually.
I think that's a hard sell for people that don't have this pain point or they don't, it doesn't feel incredibly painful to them. And I think a lot of that too is on me and Aaron. We got something out there to get something out there, but we didn't do, we didn't do any kind of drip emails. We didn't do any kind of marketing emails. And our landing page is so much better than it was, but people are still confused when they go to our landing page in terms of like what the product does.
So, what I'm trying to say is of course it was a disappointment. Like, wouldn't it have been amazing, if we sent one email and got five sales. We sent one email and got zero sales. Of course that's a disappointment, but it's just, it's just the foot off the block, right? This is just the starting point.
So something in there that I think, dive into a bit more because I don't, I think I disagree with you that this is something specific to Laravel developers, but you said something in there that I think is worth exploring, which is that for people who do not experience this problem or who don't regularly experience this problem, it's too expensive, which is a broadly applicable concept, right?
Like this is when we're talking about, you know, customer interviews, like talk to the people who have a frequent and painful, who experienced that problem frequently and painfully. Right. Because if you try to sell me something, even if it's amazing, but I don't experience that problem. Or I experience it once a year for 10. I'm just not going to buy something to solve it because it's not a problem in my life.
And so I think it's less that like people who use Laravel are not used to paying a high price for that. Like, by the way, the way I read his pricing is that it's like, there's very much an element of agency's baked into that and like freelance developers who, it's only $300 per site, but if you're a freelance developer, who's building, you know, 12 sites a year or more, or an agency that adds up really quickly. Right. They're just not necessarily paying for it themselves. I don't know.
I guess we should just ask Taylor what his pricing philosophy is, uh, rather than trying to guess it, but. But, yeah. So I think it's maybe a question of you just haven't found the people that experience it, like painfully enough and like, you know, I like you and Aaron were talking on the hammer stone podcast about how, managers probably experienced this, the general problem of like, I would rather buy a tool than have my developers spend 20 hours building something.
Then the developers who were like, oh, I could just spend a week working on that. No problem. And so I know your, your Laravel list is like mostly people from Aaron's Lara con talk. Right. And so I wonder if this list is just mostly those developers who, look at that and say, oh, I could do that myself and not their managers who are like, yeah, I'm sure you could do that, but I need you doing other things. So I'm just going to pay a thousand bucks and then we're good.
Can you just deploy this please? Right. Like, I that's, what I wonder is going on.
Well, and I think there might be another aspect too, whereas Nova is an admin dashboard. So I think I can hypothesize that most of Nova uses internal. Whereas, if you have a public facing site and you need filtering. And so if it's internal, maybe you're not doing it that often, or you know how to write SQL. So you just write your SQL or whatever.
I mean, I'm in Nova. I have by basically constantly have a Nova tab open. I'm using it all the time during the day. And I do not, not know how to write SQL. So neither of what you just said is true for me. And I bet you.
I take it back then.
And I know you and I like you, and that influenced my decision, but it was also like, Hey, like I could just quickly look this up and not go have to like use metabase suite.
Sweet. And I think you're right. I think that list we have, like, it's a good list, but also those might not be the people that are buying. And we have people interested on the rail side. I think we're going to do a proper or kind of like a bigger deal launch when the laravel total thing, not just the Nova integration, but we'll like when the Laravel of L thing is done, which is like in a month. So I think what I'm trying to say is, is, yeah, we didn't, we didn't knock it out of the park.
We didn't even like hit it to first base, but the process of forcing ourselves to do this. You know we launched the landing page. We got tons of feedback. We have this time to really work on our copy and our site and to really work on how we are going to present this. Like, what is the elevator pitch for this thing? I think the next couple of weeks, Aaron and I are really going to drill down into that.
And so hopefully when it's done in a month, and we do another launch for Laravel and we're going to do a bigger deal launch when we do it for Laravel, we will find more interested in.
You know what to extend that baseball metaphor. My apologies to all of our European listeners who are going to have no idea what I'm talking about. It wasn't a home run. It wasn't a first base. It was kind of a strikeout, but this was a foul ball strike out. You were like, there was effort, there was genuine effort and learnings from this. Right. You've learned things from it. You didn't just stand there and look at the balls at, went by three times, right?
Like you were actually up there giving this a solid effort and you have been learning things from it. And I think you can, I think that is a very respectable strike out.
I think what's frustrating though. Michelle is we felt like we felt that, of the market and maybe the pull is Laravel, it's not Nova. Like we knew Nova was a special integration, but I think, I mean, we're definitely disappointed.
Yeah.
However, this is the game, right? Like this is what happens. It is so rare, for people to just have a magical, like they send an email and it's flying off the shelves. Like I think we have a great product. I think people want this product. I think where we have failed and what we are trying to do better is communicate the value of this product. And I think once we can figure that out, this is going to be, this is going to be the thing, like it's going to be really successful.
Um, But of course, like, yeah, of course you just want it to work with, without putting too much work
That'd be nice, right?
Wouldn't that be
I mean, I think you need to be better at communicating the value of it to the people that would value it.
Yes, I agree. And that is the challenge. How do you do that? And I think we're going to write up some like case studies of how you can use this tool, you know, make your life better, do certain like really specific things, but yeah, absolutely. And honestly, once the, once we were able to get together, um, and actually, you know, and help you guys integrate it.
and I can't wait, I still can't wait to get your feedback on that because I think that's going to be really instructive in terms of like how much time it's going to save you once it's in a.
Honestly, it was like, we've struggled to figure out how to do that meeting. Cause it was like, I was like talking to Mathias about it and he's like, so they just, watch me write some code and terminal, and then we're all going to sit there for three hours as it deploys.
Right. Can't you just install it locally so we can show you how it
yeah, I mean, that's what we considered was installing it just on staging. Um, actually we have to install it on staging anyway, um, because we can't show you our customer data. I'm sorry. I love you. But you know, contracts, I need to abide by and like, you know, privacy, I need the respect, um, that whole thing.
So I could, we could install it on staging, but then in order for you to get like a genuine, like, oh my gosh, wow, this is so cool reaction out of me, Like I need to actually be using it with production data. And also we need to make sure that, like, it doesn't overtax our databases. And I accidentally run a really expensive query in terms of computing. And, I don't want to accidentally like, take something down, which is like something we worry about with meta base.
It's like, don't query this database like, you know, so, um, yeah, we ha we actually, we were talking about that the other day and we have to figure it out, and Yeah. No, like I really want to make that happen, but then it ended up being really complicated once we actually thought it through. But we will find a way to make that happen.
Yeah.
We were like, maybe like, we can like record ourselves as we install it and then
Well, it doesn't have to be video either, right? Like more than anything, we just want your feedback. I mean, even if you're like, we can't meet, we're just going to do it ourselves.
Yeah.
But we can help you. Like, if you're worried about taking down a database, like you have a query in the past, that's taken down a database. I mean, we can advise you on.
Yeah. Yeah. I need to, we basically need to make sure there's like safeguards on our end so that we, uh, yeah, so we have to think about, and it's been, it's been busy. So the other thing you said on Hammerstone podcasts that I wanted to ask about, and so you said that you need to sell what? 30, 40, 50 licenses a month in order to
No, wait, keep going.
in order to support you being full-time in August
No five licenses a month.
Okay. No, you need 30,000 a month was, or no. Why am I thinking about 30 of something? Okay. I don't
I have no idea why you're
It is. It is late in the day and we're going to blame it on that. Okay. You need five licenses a month.
Yes.
to support you being full-time in August.
Yeah.
Considering this launch that you just had, how are you feeling about the achievability of that by August?
I still feel good about it.
You do.
Which seems totally out of sync with the reality of what just happened.
You're like your spirit animal is a golden retriever like of, so I would like,
You're so sweet.
I would kind of expect that to you, but I would also expect you to, I mean, you said you were disappointed, but like you're, so you're still like, you're still feeling like that's achievable.
Yeah, I don't think this is a signal of anything bad. I think this is just, I think what we learned is we have got to work on our copy. We have got to work on our marketing. I think we have low, to your point, this list is probably developers who are interested in the tech. What I have found talking to a lot of people is usually the decision person on this is someone who is a manager because they think of time value differently than a developer. And the pricing is weird.
It's out of sync for Nova. I mean, people, I get that. I don't have any, I'm not worried about it at all. I mean, asked me in a month after we've launched Laravel for, Laravel like just the straight up Laravel and we'll see where we are.
Is that the product name Laravel for Laravel.
Laravel for Laravel. Speaking of product name, we should talk about that next because people are super confused.
Well, so once I listened to the podcast, I haven't listened to it in a while. Admittedly, I don't listen, I actually don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but if I have a long drive, then I will listen. And then you started talking about how amazing all my ideas were. So then I like kept listening. Um, so yeah, this is a great self-esteem boost. Like, um, so cause you have the, you have like. Sidecar, which is a Laravel of a thing, right, like people were really psyched about that. And then,
Yes
uh, no, Aaron did a Torchlight, the highlighting thing. Aaron did something with Lambda, but I don't remember what I think that was something on
that was
that side. That's the Lambda thing. Okay. And then, there's other stuff. So then it made sense to me, why there's hammer stones. I guess the name here, I guess I don't really get that name. Um, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's cool, but it's like, you're not making, you know, I don't know, like reproduction Viking clothing or something. Like, I feel like that's like that, like, you know, like it's like hammer stone metery, you know, like.
Okay. So I want to talk to you about this name because all those other packages we have, like, none of those are for I mean, Torchlight is for sale, but we don't anticipate that being like a big moneymaker where we might open source that. So I feel like I was thinking about that actually, my friend brought up that like, Wildbit owns postmark, but they're they feel independent, right? Like when you go to postmarks website, it doesn't say postmark by Wildbit.
Also because Wildbit sold it.
Well before that though. No, where I know they sold it, but before that, right before they sold it, like it was their company, but it felt like if you went on their site, if you Googled them, like it felt independent. And I bring that up because maybe instead of calling it Refine by hammer stone, like that's ridiculous. Maybe we should just call it hammer stone or maybe we should just call Refine, but I do think, and I got to talk to Aaron about this.
I do think there is an opportunity because now if someone Googles, what if they heard on the podcast that I call it Refine and they Google, refine query builder, like nothing's going to show up. So I feel like there is some opportunity, if people seem really confused about the name thing, and I feel like we should fix that since this is the product we want to make money. Somehow, whether we just call it hammer stone or we just call it refine. I don't know. I'm open to.
I mean, it's also worth doing a trademark search and just checking that there isn't another piece of software out there called refine because if there is, and then you eventually, this becomes like a big thing and you want to trademark it. Like you could have to change your name, or you could get a cease and desist from somebody, so it's worth just going on the patent and trademark office is website and just checking that as well.
Yeah, I mean, like I said, we're going to spend the next couple of weeks, really, really all. I mean, obviously we still work have our jobs, but really thinking about this, like giving this marketing stuff some like real time, because it seems a little confusing.
I would focus more on selling than I would on the marketing and the name right now. I feel like people get really hung up on like names and logos and color schemes, when they're trying to launch a business, when they should be focusing on launching a business, like you can always change that stuff later.
Okay. So talk to me about what you think that looks Like,
So this is interesting because Aaron on, on hammer stone pod was also talking about how, like, he has a lot of experience with marketing, but not necessarily with sales. And I guess you've done a lot. I mean, as a, as a consultant, you've done a little bit of sales, right? You have to like sell, like, do you have to like write proposals and stuff like that?
Yeah. I do. I feel like I kind of get it. I mean, I feel like I know how to close and yes, I have to write proposals, but
Hopefully, you don't have to do that for this. Um,
Yeah. Well, and I don't know. I mean, how would you even let's let's like practically think about this, like, so we have a handful of people that have purchased it. What is the next step?
mean, so if you, if you feel like your target customer is managers in an organization that use Laravel. Then you need to figure out who those people are and where they are and how you can get in front of them.
Okay. Now I want to talk to you about something though, because you are an ideal customer of the Nova because you are in Nova every day. You don't want to write custom SQL. You want what you want, and yet you have not yet installed.
Yeah, because we got stuff going on, like. You know, I want to install it, but like, you know, server migrations and feature built. Like, there's all this stuff that was like already happening. Like, yes, we have some flexibility in our roadmap, but it's not like it can just
Okay. Try this
Immediately. Do you know what I mean? Like it takes time.
I do. If you didn't know me, if I wasn't like your best friend, you're kind of obligated. If you didn't know me and you were like, wow, this meta base is really pissing me off. And you stumbled upon our landing page. Do you think you would have bought it?
Uh, I don't think I would have stumbled upon it. More likely is that, I'm, I'm trying to do something in meta base. And then I'm like, Mathias, how do I do this? Is this the right thing again? Like, you know, whatever. And he's like, oh, let me put my headphones down and come over it and I'll help you with it. And like, he's very patient with me, but like, I'm interrupting him. And then, so in all likelihood, he sees this on hacker news. Hey, like we should do this.
So you, you know, stop bugging me with help writing queries that, and then I would be like yeah, probably. I don't know if I would buy it at a thousand dollars, but I mean also I like in the beginning, I think it's okay, if it's like your friends who are supporting you, cause like me being like, I don't know this thing, like, what is it? But then, do you have like testimonials on your website right now?
We have
okay. like we need it, me writing a testimonial, that's like, this is so great. I don't have to go into metabase and write SQL anymore. Yay. Buy it. So worth it. Right.
But two things. I th I think you said that were interesting. And I agree, like having your friends support you in the beginning is awesome because you get some, we're going to get such good feedback and great
I love supporting my friends and being a business expense. Like it's just like this. There was like, I think I bought a, what was it? Oh, it was Peter's thing, reform. The other, the other re thing and QuickBooks, like categorized it as a donation. And I was like, where's the lie? Like what? Like,
Where's the lie. That's amazing.
you know, so it's like, yeah.
So this is what I took from what you just said, which was interesting, use meta base and that's a pain point. So maybe one place I can look would be like meta base forums for people's pain
Yeah. People trying SQL
People trying to use SQL who are frustrated. I need
trying to figure out use metabase. Yeah, like maybe like product people who not only managers, but also like the product people who need, or in a small enough organization that they don't have a BI team they're asking developers to, you know, like, can you give me a list of all of the users in the last month who have done this because they need to like send an email or do whatever, or do some analysis.
So small enough that they don't have a BI team, they're using Laravel or using Nova, and yeah, the like the product people and then find them, you know, whether they're the thing is, is like you could probably go on stack overflow and find people asking questions about like, I'm trying to write the SQL query to work with metabase, but like, do you know that they're working with Laravel and with Nova right? Like there's like, there's a lot of pieces there. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. No, that's, that's really good. That's, you know, that's a good kind of, to think through that flow. And I think what we are going to do. Uh, Aaron and I are going to see each other next week. Yay. For our workshop.
Oh, my God. It's next week, right?
it's
Is it ready?
week. Oh yeah. I finished it. just been, it's been a lot, like, I'm going to be honest, Michelle. Like, I'm a pretty happy person, you know, me really well, but when we got no sales and I had to build that workshop from scratch, I was not in dude. I totally was. It's like, this is terrible. Why did I agree to do
What do they call it? The, uh, the trough of sorrow. Have you ever seen that.
Oh dude. I was so in the trough of sorrow, like to whatever that was two weeks ago, I was like, this sucks. Why am I doing
Yeah. That's the trough
Oh yeah. I feel like, you know, it, wasn't a trough. It's more of a dip, but you know, that's what I remind myself. That's part of the game, right? These emotional
water bowl of sorrow for your golden retriever. Ah, yeah.
So yeah. so it's done now. I just have to practice it, but it was a lot, I mean, putting together the workshop was ton of work. It was a tremendous amount of work. And so I just want it to be over
How long is the workshop.
Um, Well, so here's the interesting thing it's supposed to be 90 minutes. I have no idea how long it's actually going to take. I think, you know, we have tons, we can just keep going and going. Right. We can just like, I can do this for all day, but I have prepared what I think will take approximately that amount of time. And, um, you, know, someone who has given a lot of workshops told me it always takes longer than you.
' cause you're like, oh, I'm going to give you 10 minutes to do this thing. And then someone's dependencies are out of whack or someone can't get the, you, know, they don't have Docker installed or whatever that always happens. So it's been a whole thing. But anyway, I give it
Can you, send people like a list? It's like, Hey, like, make sure your dependencies are in order. And like, you know, make sure you have
People don't do. So I got a cloud IDE git pod. I got it set up and git pod, so for those that do not have the correct, like can't get the repo running. Like they can just, it's pretty cool. It's like one click and it, um, it's the whole IDE and it runs the server for you. And it has all the dependencies in it, which I got set up yesterday, which was a huge pain. Yeah, so it'll be good. I think the workshop's going to be great. I do, but I also just want it to be over
Yeah. And then I guess you feel like after rails conf you can really focus on selling this.
That's what I, yes, that's exactly how I feel. So I. You know, Aaron and I have a lot of things to talk about. We have a lot of feedback. I'm going to see him, which will be really good. And our plan for the next like is just to push on the marketing and sales, like just really get out there, try stuff. Um, while we have a contractor finishing up the front end for Laravel and Vue, we have a different contractor working on Vue and it's going to be all themed and amazing.
And so that's almost done. So that's going to be done in a couple of weeks. The rail stuff is almost done. So I still think in the next like two to three months a lot is, oh, it's may I just realized it's may, may June, July, August 12th, whatever. Um, In the next two to three months, things are really going to pick up.
So I heard you talking about a lot of building stuff. There was less, marketing the stuff in there, even though you just talked about marketing it, like, have you guys thought about, you know, I mean, I know Aaron's done this a bunch in the past, like posting more stuff on Twitter about just what you're working on. So people are aware of it and can see it in action. Even as you're working, like, like, I feel like you're holding this really close to your chest and.
Kind of, I mean, you didn't even tell anybody about it for like, uh, like how long was it between the time people could actually buy the Nova thing and then you actually sent the email like two months.
Yeah, I know. I know we're not, we're not doing that anymore. We're we're going to change that cadence. Aaron didn't want to do a big tweet to thread about Nova cause he wants to save, like, save that social capital for Laravel since we're so close, But um, yeah,
just stuff like you're working on like, Hey, like I'm building this Le like rails thing and like, it's not complete, but like, here's what I did today. Like, people love that. Like just post, like just like build in public stuff, except you're like 95% built. And
Yeah. I usually do that. I think we've been distracted. He has been, he had his lara cast. He had to finish and I had to do the workshops. So we've both been kind of heads down in this like kind of busy work ish kind of thing. But you will see more of that. That's obviously a great idea and something we need to, we
And so you're at rails conf next week and the rails thing is, is that going to be refined for rails or, or,
Yeah,
Is that the, so that's not going to be available for sale at rails.
It's super close, but it's not quite ready yet. So we still have like a few little bugs. We gotta iron out. Man. No cause that's next week, but like it's, I mean, so close almost
so then your goal for the conference next week is to talk to people and drum up interest in this and. Like have you thought about doing a pre-order of it so that people at rails conf can pre-order it.
That's an interesting idea.
then, so you're not waiting until the launch,
That's an interesting
like just having a simple landing page where they can pre-order it for, I don't know how much you're going to sell it for,
that we're going to sell for the same thousand dollars. a
So put up a landing page that says they can buy it, you know, for, I don't know. 7 99 or something if they pre-order it
That's a great idea. Um,
and like join and like join a
in the next,
Right.
uh, yeah, let me talk to Aaron about that. So I mean, we have some
You got to have something to do on the plane. Right.
Right. Right. It's like, you know, I was talking, oh, because Stripe announced their mark docs or whatever yesterday that everyone's so excited about. And the reason they're so excited about it is cause we have like, here's the problem we have. And I'm just going to rant a little bit. So Aaron did our, and I had the same problem with simple file upload, landing pages are so much harder than they need. So what you just said made total sense.
I should just throw up a landing page, but ours is in Laravel, which I don't even have running locally. So I can't just throw up a landing page. So then I'd have to spin up like another domain and, or, you know, a sub domain and link to it from our main domain. I guess it's not hard. It's just like, I don't know.
You're selling a Laravel of a product. Maybe you should have some passing familiarity with it, at least as it pertains to your marketing website. Like, what if there's a day when like you need a sales call and somebody is late and like Aaron isn't available.
Yeah, I think too. I mean, I don't know. I guess this just goes back to like, where do you do your landing pages? Like how do you do your landing pages? Um, you know what I should do, Michelle. Like let's simplify this you're right. That feels a little overwhelming. Cause I still have to practice this workshop and get on an airplane. But why don't I, what is that? That one page thing everyone loves, it's not carbon, it's yeah. Why don't I just Do a card
Do a card plus one of those Stripe checkout links.
yeah. Card
And then also you have a MailChimp and you have a MailChimp thing set up, right. So you can have a MailChimp
We have MailChimp set up. We can segment, like, I think we have a reform. I got to talk to Aaron about this. We have a reform to that he's been
Oh, does that feed
talk to him.
thing or?
Yeah. Right now we have a reform that feeds into the MailChimp, but that would be easier to segment using that as opposed to like what I do on simple file upload where I actually write the code to segment in the app. Um, Y Yeah, I, you know what, that's what I should do. I feel like that's the fastest is spin up a card.
it doesn't have to be
Stripe checkout link. doesn't have to be perfect. I'm
Give people a discount for pre-ordering like say it's going to be available. I don't know, say like June 1st or whatever,
months.
Or July 1st and say, if you pre-order it right now, like 7 99.
Yes. I love this idea. Okay. I'm in
Cool. I think we're good. Um, okay. Would you like to read our list of, uh, sponsors this week? Okay.
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Isn't that such a nice list to read. Like it's so heartwarming to like, read that. Okay. You've got a lot of work to do.
Oh, can I just take a nap?
No, Colleen actually, I guess golden retrievers do nap. So yes.
I was joking with my husband. I literally have to go to a conference to get some sleep that was like the first two days are going to be rails conf and then the last day I'm just going to spend the whole day in my hotel room.
So, I guess I won't talk to you next week. It'll be two weeks then.
Yeah,
Yeah, because you're at rails conf. Okay. I will
All right. Cool.
in two weeks.