From Learning to Code to Llamas

Flight control works with any language or framework. It supports servers, static sites and database. Sign up at Flightcontrol.dev and use the code Software Social to get 20% off your first three months. Hey everyone, I am so excited to have a guest with us today, who is someone I have talked to on Twitter a lot, um, and shared a lot of dog pictures with, but have never actually spoken to. So it is Marie Ng, AKA three hour coffee. The force behind Lama life. Marie, welcome to Software Social.

So I think we ended up just kind of looking at each other's fleets a lot and just commenting. And um, I feel like I kind of got to know you a little bit through that, but yes, we haven't really talked about business or, you know, indie hacker journey or anything like that. It's just been more personal stuff. But that's great as well.

What I loved about fleets is I felt like I could just share. Yeah. Like what was going on with my strawberries? Or like how the tomatoes like weren't doing well, or, like, you know, just like pictures of my dog playing. I guess I feel like if I shared that kind of thing, I guess I'm always afraid like, oh, people follow me because they want me to be this business person who's gonna help them grow their business or whatever. They don't care about my strawberries.

Right. And I don't know if that's true, but like, that's how I felt about it. And so I felt like fleets kind of gave me that freedom.

And, I actually have a rule for myself, which is like, when I tweet, I generally don't take more than two minutes to do the tweet. So it's a two minute rule and the reason for that, and it might not work for everyone, but I find this helps for me is that if I take more than two minutes, it's not, I feel like I'm not being off the, or I'm not, or I'm overthinking it.

So for me, it's like, all right, well, if I can't write it in two minutes, I just delete it because probably wasn't really meant to be shared or the thought behind it. Wasn't clear enough to be shared. And yeah, that's just kind of how I do it. I'm just trying to be myself, I guess, on Twitter. And there's a lot of typos in my tweets too, just because, because I'm doing it quickly and I'm like, well, that's, I guess I, It's just part of my account. There's typos in there and I'll leave it.

That's fine.

And the concept behind that is kind of like a time boxing concept, kind of like a slightly different spin on the pomodoro technique. A slightly more flexible pomodoro technique, cause you can assign any amount of time that you want to a task. And I find that just helps me focus because I know I've got a set amount of time. Um, Maybe it's 10 minutes, maybe it is 15. And I try not to do anything else during that time. And I just focus on whatever task it is that is in Lama Life.

And I guess on top of that, it's a little bit, the design is a little bit fun. So it's designed to feel kind of low pressure. There's a lot of emoji in there and it's designed to make you feel good when you complete a task. So you get things like confetti animations when you finish something and lots of little sound effects that, that are kind of cute in nature. And yeah, so it's a it's enough that helps you focus at the end of the day.

So my thinking is that if I design it with neurodiversity in mind, like, and I I'm coming from that background, then, you know, everybody in my mind is kind of on a spectrum anyway. So even if you are further along the spectrum, if it's designed with neurodiversity in mind, then you probably still get some benefit from it. And that's kind of what I'm finding. I don't think all of Lama life's customers have ADHD. I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but I do know a large number of them do.

And I know that because they actually email me and they, oh my god like this t is like you you've designed this tool that works for my brain. Like, This is exactly kind of the thing I'm looking for I've been looking for a long time. And yeah, it's kind of interesting. So when you say, you know, why did you build this? There's two reasons.

One is, I couldn't find a tool that worked for me, and I was trying to do all these hacks with other tools that were out there, but they just felt like it just was too, it was just too much. Like I was trying to do too many things, and it was getting in the way of the actual productivity. So I started just trying to put in features that like I wanted and that worked for me. That was the first reason. The second reason is I was just learning how to code.

I taught myself how to code about two years ago just by watching YouTube videos and, you know, when you're learning to code, one of the first things you you make is a to-do list. I think a lot of, you know, new developers are like, let me make a to-do list because it's a really good way to practice web development. Cuz you get to, you know, you work with a database, and you can create a task. You can edit a task, you can right to the database retrieve tasks.

There's a lot of good things that you can learn by making a to-do list app. So it started off as like a really simple to-do list. And then I put it on Twitter and people were like, I really want this. So I just started building it out more and more, and then adding in features that like I just wanted, and it started getting a following from that.

From just sharing the stuff that I was, is working on and just the fact that some of the features were a little bit different, a little bit kind of quirky, or just a little bit focused on the fact that I've got really bad time blindness, so I was putting in a lot of features to help with that. And people liked that, they were either surprised because they'd never seen that before, or they were just searching for that because they already had that need.

We need a place to store things, and I think there's this thing, um, you know, I I believe that like all of the things we have that like, that are deficiencies or seen as deficiencies, if you can master those, you can then turn them into this thing that like massively helps other people, even if they don't have that struggle.

And so I think because those of us with ADHD have to spend so much time, like learning these very basic things about how do you focus, and what makes you feel accomplished, and what makes you go onto another task? And like, what are all of the things that can go wrong when you're trying to just get one stupidly simple thing done, and you've been at your desk for four hours and still not done it. And it would take you 10 seconds to do it.

How do you prevent yourself from getting in that situation, like we've had to think about that

And then in turn, I was like, oh wait, I have all of this knowledge about like how to have a conversation and how to listen to people. And I guess other people haven't really thought about that. That could use that to like help them. it sounds like you are doing that with Lama Life, but then I also love, okay, sorry, so how you were like learning to code, got yourself watching like YouTube videos building the basic to-do list app.

I remember like my God, like years ago going to like a rails girls thing and like, yeah, starting out building a very basic to-do list, but then like, you got into it.

It sounds like you got that little hyperfocused bug, and then you went from like doing these YouTube videos and then you're just in very ADHD fashion, completely off somewhere else, like totally on the other side, like running off with something completely unrelated, but it is related, but like, you're just like, just way off on a tangent. And, and like now it's your business.

So it's interesting though, because I, this is actually my third attempt to learn how to code, the first two times I tried to read a book and it did not work. It didn't, it didn't click for me. I tried reading a couple of chapters and just couldn't get into it. And this third time, I tried to think about, you know, what is my learning style? What works for me? I am terrible at reading books, fiction, nonfiction, it doesn't matter.

So I don't know why I thought reading a coding book was a good idea. But I just guess, I guess I saw people online doing that. So I was like, yeah, these books have good reviews. Let me try it. But in the end I thought, well, I really like watching videos. I'm really good with audio. And I'm really good with video from a learning perspective. So then I just started watching YouTube videos and I supplemented that with a Udemy course. I think I paid 20 bucks for it.

And that became, you know, my whole, like how to learn JavaScript and I love it now. I just, I absolutely love it. I was spending, I don't know, four hours, five hours a day, just hyper focusing and just being obsessed, learning everything I could about coding. And it was just a very natural thing. It was first a to-do list. And then I was like, okay, well it's just a to-do list. Maybe I should connect a data base to it so I can actually save stuff for people.

Let me add like a user profile and an account and authentication. And every time I Did An extra thing. It was, it was all about learning. Like, okay, well I wanna learn how to add Stripe payments next. And if I look back now, it's sort of, it looks kind of like a larger app now, but it didn't feel overwhelming at the time. Cause I was just doing it in little bits and it was all about me learning to code. So it was just kind of this very natural progression, weirdly so. Like just very weirdly.

So, and I just love it. So it didn't feel like a chore to me. It was quite fun to do. And yeah. And it's just kind of become what it is today from that.

That's why I started doing this in the first place.

So I I've created this thing called chimes, and you can just have it play like a chime, like a little sound every five minutes or every 10 minutes. And it's just something to kind of snap you back in case you're hyper focusing on the wrong thing. So it's kind of like a reverse, a reverse thing. A lot of people have liked that feature. I guess It's just having an, an alarm on an interval

And then I know that I need to, you know, get off of my Wikipedia rabbit hole.

So with those previous startups, I was working with a friend and that friend was doing all the coding, and the dev work, and I was doing more the marketing and sort of the product and business side, but I've always just wanted to create like my own stuff. And I don't know, I kind of just hit this point in corporate life where I was like, okay, I think I just wanna, I just wanna do my own thing.

And I think, I think this decision is a very personal one and it's different for everybody because some people say, you know, I'll, I'll do my, my corporate gig and I'll do my indie hacking stuff on the side until I reach a certain level of MRR and then I can afford to quit.

With me, I think it was quite, I was quite lucky in the sense that I'd saved up a lot of money with previous work that I I'd kind of worked out, I had a certain amount of runway where I could quit and support myself for X amount of, you know, months. For a bit more context, I don't have kids either, and so in terms of supporting myself, it's really just supporting me.

There's less responsibility in that sense, cause there's no one sort of under my care, except my dog, Homer, which we can talk about later. Um, So I'd kind of just. Yeah, I kind of just quit, and I knew I had a certain amount of time to make something happen. And because of that, I think this works for my brain as well. There's a sense of urgency for me. You know, there's a sense of like, if you don't do this, you're kind of screwed. And that really helps me get into gear year.

Personally, if I kept working, and I had a regular income, and I was trying to learn this on the side, personally, that doesn't work for me because it's not as urgent. And I think that's just something for me, like that's just how my life has been in general. When I'm thrown into like a really crazy situation, I tend to get a lot of focus, and I find it exciting, and stuff gets done. But if there's no urgency for me, then it could just drag on.

I probably wouldn't have spent four hours a day, if there was no urgency behind it. But I, I think everyone's a little bit different, but that's kind of how that's kind of how I did It.

And it sounds like you believed you were capable of running your own business for me, it took me a really long time to believe it.

For me, the way I justified it in my head was okay, well, I'm not gonna go back to university and pay for another degree, but what I will do is, you know, I'll just take time off work to do it. And in effect, I'm kind of paying for that experience because there's no money coming in. So I kind of justify it that way as like, I'm not paying for an degree, but I'm paying for experience, in a, in a way. In a fashion. And that kind of really helped me think about the value behind it.

And obviously you're not, you're not going to a lecture and being taught, but you are teaching yourself. And for me, that actually worked out really well because I could never sit in a lecture and pay attention for the whole time. Right. I just, I struggled so badly to do that, but if I'm teaching myself and I'm watching a video, I could fast forward the video if I get it and I can rewind the video if I don't get it.

If the video itself wasn't working for me, if that particular channel on YouTube wasn't working, I would just go and find someone else. And I think you have a lot more control over your learning when you're doing it that way, and you asked before, like, are there particular channels that I follow? And I think what I did was I had like two or three. So there's one called JavaScript 30 by Wes Boss. There's a guy called Dev Ed on YouTube, which I really like.

And also Traversy media, they're kind of the three that I was looking at. Uh, We can put some, some links maybe in the show notes later. Um, They were kind of like three sort of staple ones. And then if there was a specific topic that I was struggling on, like a specific coding challenge. I was struggling on. I would just go Google like that specific thing and hunt for anybody who had solved that or who could explain it.

So it was kind of like a mixture, but I think the main point I'm trying to make is that like, you have to really just go with what works for you. That was kind of like a big thing for me was I don't really fit into some of these more traditional learning models, university, reading books, et cetera, but I kind of know what works for me and because I'm doing my own thing, I have so much more freedom to go, well, that doesn't work. I don't wanna do that.

I don't wanna sit, you know, for several hours doing that one thing, listening to this one teacher on YouTube, if they don't work for me, if they don't click with how I'm thinking about things. Well, I don't click with the way they're explaining it, but that's fine because I can control my own learning. I can go somewhere else. Maybe it's not YouTube. Maybe it was stack overflow or maybe it's Reddit.

You have so much more freedom to figure out what works for you, and you can just go in that direction.

And I think this is something really like, there's something really magical about getting feedback from users that not only does it help you make sure you're kind of building the right thing or building in the right direction. But having people who are using it is so like motivating, right? I think people talk about like how do you keep motivation as an indie hacker or as an independent business owner? And for me like that, that motivation comes from just like knowing that I'm helping people.

And it sounds like that like, like I almost like took you by surprise that people wanted to use it, but then that like kind of kept you going.

And I started just coding, like a new feature because you're right, like, it's just so motivating. Right. It's just so empowering, and it just feels so good that someone else appreciates the work and yeah, it really just is like my energy for this, and um, yeah.

So I always, whenever I look at other indie hacker products, I'm like, if I like it, even if it's just a small part of it, I will write to that person because I know how good it feels when someone writes to me and says, hey, you know, I really love what you've done here. And here's a feature suggestion. It's just it's, yeah. It's just so much, it's like fuel. It's fuel that keeps me going.

Just like something small, but taking the time to appreciate someone else, can feel awkward, but it's so powerful. And once you get in the habit of doing it and receiving appreciation, right? Like It's just, it's amazing. Like I, for me, it is the best dopamine fuel.

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to get a lot more like random DMS on Twitter, and I used to have this thing where like every time I looked at my DMS, especially the ones that are message requests, so these are people that you don't follow. Right. And they just, they just message you. I used to have kind of this anxiety moment where I was like, I don't really know what this person's gonna say, and is it just gonna be something like, they want something from me.

I get a lot of requests saying, can you review this? Or can you, vote me on product hunt. And I just sometimes like, if I don't know someone, I probably won't do it. I probably won't accept the message request unless it's constructive, unless it's something like it's a compliment or they're giving feedback. But I think there's this, this trend where a lot of people ex just ex expect you to reply. And that was actually really getting to me for some time.

But now when, now when I go into my message request, I kind of take a deep breath. I'm like, okay, let me see what there is, but I don't know if you've ever had that with your account. I think as you get more followers, it gets, it kind of gets exponentially worse.

Because like, if it's like somebody that I know and I follow and like we're chatting about something, like, it's fine. But there's, there's the whole thing about, like, I, I used to be able to just, you know, someone reach out to me, like I used to be able to just hop on a phone call with them and chat and like, whatever. I just don't. I have so many people asking me for that now. And I just don't have time for it, in which people say, oh, well then you should do consulting.

And I'm like, these are like other, people who are just trying to get their business started, they're trying to figure something out. I can't just like charge 'em $500 for a phone call. I would feel bad. Even if they could pay it, I would feel bad taking their money. And so sometimes like, I have, I feel like I'm kind of rude and I'm like, and like, they're like, oh, how did you start your business? And I'm like, I have done so many podcasts where I talked about that.

And I'm really bored of talking about that like, uh, I have to like start either ignoring people or not like not, you know, they say they want a phone call and I just like, I can't do it. And I feel so bad, cause that's why I, like, I love talking to people. I just like love making friends and everything. And I just feel like I can't do that anymore. Like, you know, if it's someone I've been like tweeting with and they like ask me up vote them on product hunt. And like, that's it.

I'm like, okay, fine. I'll do that.

You probably already done this a billion times, but you could do another tweet on it and just say, well, I'll tweet about it again. So then everybody can learn.

Like, I like, if you send me a video to watch, I will probably not watch it because I can read so much faster that like, someone asked me the other day, if I'd listened to their podcast and I was like uh, no, there's no transcript. I only listen to podcasts when I'm driving a long distance. And so, and I don't do that very often.

That's really the only time I can sit down long enough to listen to audio and deal with the fact that I could absorb the information so much faster and text, and also be able to reference it later. Cause I feel like in a video, I can't reference it later. And like I love like checking off things in a, like, like a syllabus with all of the homework assignments, list it in chapters. Like that's a to do list to me. I love that. I have an MBA.

I am all in on structure like, cause I don't have any myself.

And you can have multiple databases in notion and you can also link to those databases, kind of create, you know, relational databases, but that's, what's so cool about it is that it kind of gives you all the building blocks and you can design something that works for you based on what they give you. And that's kind of what I I'm trying to do with Lama Life, as well. I'm trying to make it flexible enough that you can tweak stuff. There's a lot of settings.

So when you look at it, initially, it looks really simple. And I don't know if that's worked against me in some ways that people come and they look at it and they think it's so simple. And they're like, well, no, I don't need that, but that's kind know how I've designed it. So it looks simple on the surface, but if you go into settings, you can actually customize it. A lot. And that's just because like, I feel like everybody's slightly different.

So what works for me might not necessarily work for you. Conceptually obviously there's like a core of it and it's always around timers and time boxing, but in terms of how you wanna set it up and tweak, it turns, sounds off, turns sounds on, um, have different types of alarms. So there's like a, there's a visual alarm, that's just silent. Some people don't want to have a sound that startles them.

So you can just have it flush at you like in red or whatever color you choose just to kind of catch at the side of your eye. But that's kind of one of the design, like the core things of it. When I think about the design, it's I wanna make sure it's really flexible.

Um, so what we'll see if that hurts it in the long run, but now it's just something I, I constantly think about like, well, if someone, someone might not like that, so let me put in like a toggle switch and you can choose to turn it on or off depending what works for you.

I think what I'm I'm pulling from this is that you can build something that other people have already quote unquote built, right? Like you built a to-do list app. That has been built literally millions of times because so many people do it as their first code project. But what made that different was that you really applied your own perspective on this. And it reminds me of a famous um, Goethe to quote, which is that, you know, all truly wise thoughts have already been thought.

And what is simply need to be done is to, you know, rethink them in our own experience. I'm probably butchering that, sorry, my apologies to the great German philosopher, but like, you know, it doesn't matter. Like people ask this question all the time of indie hacking businesses. It's like, well, like somebody already built, you know, a to-do list, somebody already built a Twitter scheduler, somebody already built like whatever, you know, a calendar app, like whatever that is. Right.

Like, but have they really. Like you have this unique lens to it. And if you can find like there's something there that you feel like hasn't been done yet, you can make something really magical about it. I, I spent so much time thinking about, am I writing a book that already exists? It was really important to me that I didn't write a book that already existed.

And so I read a million book books on it and, and the more I read about them, the more other books I read, I was like, you know what, my perspective, and the thing that I notice resonates with people, cause it's not just about your own experiences, how do people react when you share your perspective on it?

Like, I can see all the activity on their account has just stopped. They're not returning like the next day. It's just, they've looked at it and they've decided no, that doesn't work for me. Or, or they go, yeah, I'm just gonna pay for like an annual plan straight away, because it just clicked so, so strongly. So, I think it's a maybe a good example of, you know, your product doesn't need to be for everyone. It can be for a specific kind of audience.

And because it's polarizing, like I can see that I can see that in the data. Like it's completely polarizing, and it's not a bad thing because that means I can, when I design it, I'm designing for my audience. I don't have, have to design for everyone. That's when it kind of gets to be like a nothing product, because it becomes so general. And then it becomes like any other like you said any other to-do list.

That's kind of not where I want it to go, but because it's slightly opinionated in, in the way it's going. And the design is a little bit different. It just makes it, and the audience is different. It just makes it a lot easier for me when I'm thinking, like, what features can I add? I don't need to satisfy everyone and I can just go, well, if I satisfy myself, that's the first step, because I know that I'm definitely someone who really needs it. The pain point for me is so strong.

And like you said, I've been kind of thinking about this so much. What works for me? What can I, you know, conceptually what works for me and if it works for me, that's kind of the first step and I might build it in, or at least talk to some customers like I've got some super fans for Llama Life life. So I sometimes will just say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this. Would you want that? And then they're like, yeah, yeah, we would like, we would really want that. And then, I'll just build it.

But I think it helps to kind of, yeah, get laser focused on it and, sort of niche down.

Like there's, there's dangers in following a niche, but for you, you, you have struck on something that other people experience, other people under, like other people understand your perspective on it. And you also understand other people's perspective on it and they are willing to pay for.

It's like the typical thing where everybody tells you to raise your price, but you are kind of super nervous to do it cuz you always underestimate how much your own product Is worth. So I think it went for $4 to $6 to $9. Then it went to $19.99. Then it went to subscription. So it started off just that one time payment, then it went to subscription and now it's, now it's 49 99 per year for an annual subscription.

And that seems to be kind of the price point where, you know, obviously you wanna look at your overall revenue that that's not go down, but for now, And this might change in future, but for now, like I'm happy to have slightly fewer customers at a higher price point and really make sure that those customers are getting value from it.

And then I guess we'll see from there, but that's kind of where, where it's at at the moment, rather than having like a crazy number of users at a super cheap price point, I'd rather have it a a slightly less number of users for a high price point. Because that means I can have a relationship with those users. We can email more if they have requests or any support requests as well. I can attend to them. You know, there's kind of always this balance, right?

In terms of how much time you have when you're a really small team, and I wanna make sure that everyone that's using it is like super happy people with it. And that can't happen if there's too many users, you know, at a low price point,

And then they reached out to me over Twitter DMS and said, hey, like, I really like what you're doing with Lama Life. I can see that you're bootstrapping it. Would you ever consider, you know, raising a little bit of money and joining an accelerator program? And I was like, well, I hadn't thought of it, but now that you see it and because you are in my DMS, yeah. Let's have a chat. So we had a chat. He said, why don't you apply?

So I applied, went through all the interview process and as part of that accelerator. So this is, the launch accelerator that's run by Jason Calcanis. And as part of that, they give you a hundred K and you go through the accelerator program in exchange for equity, which is a, are 6% of the business. And that has really helped kind of, you know, sustain it, take a little bit of pressure off as well.

And um, yeah, I think that's a tricky thing when you are you're bootstrapping and indie hacking is that you kind of, you want a price point that is acceptable to your, your consumers, but based on the volume you get at the time, it might not be sustainable for you from a living perspective is, and in which case, a lot of businesses just fail. Just because you, you just, it's just hard to keep going when you got no money.

But I think with this, it kind of just gave me a little bit of a buffer, so I could focus a bit less on the price and just try to figure out what customers are, are wanting, make sure the initial customers are very happy. Um, and I think that's one Llama life because the user base isn't massive, but the user base it has, they're, they're pretty like happy with the product.

And I have a, I have a good relationship with a lot of them as well, because if they email me, I'm gonna email back and we have a dialogue going and it's kind of one of those things where you've got a small group of people who love it, and they're all really kind of loyal and they generate word of mouth and you can kind of grow it out from their, whereas I think if you take the opposite approach where you just going for like volume, you can kind of spread yourself too thin.

Both from a, you know, a customer support perspective, but also just a community building perspective. And when you're too thin, like it can fall apart really quickly. It's kind of just held if you kind of imagine it's kind of just held together just by like thin whistles of thread or something.

And I think that's kind of where things can break apart where Llama Life's a bit different, it's of it's quite solid, like the community around it and it might not be growing like exponentially at the moment, but it's growing quite steadily with a really strong community. And at some point, you know, at some point you can start adding fuel to that to make it grow exponentially. But for now, I'm just trying to make sure that everyone who uses it really likes it. And they're really happy.

They felt heard. So, you know, I play to every single email might take me a little bit longer, but Yeah, everyone who emails me, they get an email back. And yeah, that's, that's kind of the approach we're taking right now. And I actually hired my friend, as well so now there's two people. It's me and my friend. So it started off just myself, but getting that sort of injection of cash has allowed me to hire, hire somebody as well. That took a little bit of pressure off.

In my mind it's still very much a B2C product and if it, that there are plans to take it to enterprise, but I think that has to be managed like very, very carefully because I would never want it to be a product where somebody in a corporate environment is sort of mandating that you use Lama Life because they wanna make sure everybody on their team is productive. That's definitely not where I want to take it. When it goes into enterprise, I want it to be a lot more bottom up.

So it would be a tool that the employees and selves use or want to use. And they go to their manager and say, can we have this for the team? Can we expense it? That's definitely the way I want to go in versus the micromanagement sort of top down approach. And, you know, I think it's, it's a hard transition to make and it's not anywhere near that at the moment.

I'm still focusing very much just on B2C, but at eventually I think in order for it to become very profitable, Selling the enterprise or selling it, you know, a, a bulk deal for licenses. You know, maybe a company says our employees really want this. Um, or maybe they wanna offer it as part of a wellness package.

I see a lot of big companies doing that nowadays, you know, as part of a wellness package, a working from home package, we will give you access to a meditation app like calm.com and maybe a productivity app. Here's like a hamper of like chocolates or something to help make your work from home experience better. I can kind of see it going that direction where a company says, hey, we'll buy a hundred licenses for Lama Life, a hundred accounts.

And we'll distribute that to our employees as part of a, a package I've like to try that kind of route. Um, But it's pretty early days. So we'll see how that goes. We haven't, we've had one customer do that. So one customer shout out to Preshan, he bought 10 licenses uh, or 10 annual plans for Lama Life, so that was, that was good. I'm not sure how exactly he's using it, but I think he plans to give it out to his, his team or at least, you know, people in his family.

So that was a really good, that was kind of a really good moment for me because I was like, well, This could happen. Like somebody else has wanted to buy it in bulk and give it out to people on their team or to their family to, to help them with productivity.

But perhaps this is a good place to stop, but also to mention that when you get to that point of thing, thinking about company wide plans and enterprise and whatnot, maybe we should have you back on because that sales process that you described where the employees want to use it themselves. And then they ask their boss if they can use it. And then the boss reaches out to you and says, hey, my employees wanna use this. How do we make it work? That is our sales process.

Like we don't do any outbound sales at all. Like we just have people calling us up and then willing to pay us tens of thousands of dollars a year for something. So that can definitely work. It does take a lot of care and sort of how you, how you structure that. But yeah, I I feel like this, you know, that's gonna be one of the next stages for you and that, that could be a fun conversation.