Hey, Colleen.
Hey, Michelle.
It has been recently brought to my attention that last week was our 100th episode and we forgot to talk about that.
Yes. Yes. I realized that on Tuesday, the day, the episode aired people were like, oh, it's your hundredth episode? Are you doing something special? I was like, no, no, we're not.
I feel like it was the kind of reaction you get from people after they've been married for like five years or so. Like after that point, you're kind of like, oh great. We just had our seventh anniversary, like, cool. Do you want to fold laundry together? Like man hundred episodes.
That sounds crazy. I am. I find that hard to believe and it's very cool.
It's kind of wild to think about where we've come from. And I don't know, I guess it kind of makes me think of where we're at, where we're going to. I think we realized at a certain point that we have of unintentional story arcs that we have gone on, I guess, do you go on a story arc? I guess here it goes on a journey. Right? We learned that from StoryBrand, but um, we had these sort of unintentional arcs and I still feel like our show is stronger when we stuck to those unintentional arcs.
And of course, anyone with a communications or like writing or anything background is probably like, yeah.
Obviously.
Um, Yeah, podcasting one-on-one. But, yeah, I mean, I guess so when we, let's talk about this for a minute. So when we started out, it was, I had just moved to Denmark. We'd been running for six years at that point. You were a consultant and for at least a year at that point had been like, trying to like dedicate one day a week to side projects to try to get uh, SaaS off the ground.
Yeah.
And that, I mean, I feel like your kind of journey with that. And eventually, like, I guess, I guess it was like maybe like a month after we started that you decided to focus on simple file upload because it was on the, you needed for your own clients. You were tired of building image, uploading every single time.
Yeah, I think that was right. Yeah. That sounds about right.
Yeah. And so then we, followed you on that journey basically for six months. Well, I guess when we started out, we did, like, we tried to do like 15 minutes of each of us. I don't know. I guess we got tired of that. And we like, and we also realized when we prepared for it, we were too stilted. And um, it'd be kind of interesting to go back and listen to those, to hear us like experimenting with format before we decided to have no format. Screw it. Yeah.
We just decided to stop.
Um, And then you, so you launched. And got customers. And bought a twenty dollar bagel in February of 2021. And, and that was also around the time that I started writing my book. And so then there's like, last spring, there's kind of the arc of you trying to like get your first customers, start to like grow simple file uploads, still doing consulting. Um, I'm writing the book, figuring out how to write a book, how to market a book. Having a lot of self doubt and angst about that.
And then you kind of, I guess, got a little bit disillusioned with simple file upload and in a way, and like, you know, there's some financial pressures and you were like, you know what, I just need to take a job. You took a job and then you had that job for like three weeks or something like.
No.
A month, you were totally like um, Adam Scott's character in parks and rec where he liked, I don't know if you've seen parks and rec, like, so there's this running meme that he like takes a job, at an accounting firm. And then like on his first day he tells them he actually has to quit. And this happens several times. Um, And then, so you took a job and then people are like, wait, Colleen is for hire uh, let me offer her a job.
So then you got all these jobs off, which led to working on hammer stone because it's like funded by a client. So now you're actually founder of two different things. And then did you stop doing work for other clients when you started on hammer stone? Like, do you have other clients at this point?
Yeah, I have one, one kind of
Okay. This seems pretty common for people who are consultants to have like one client that kind of just hangs on no matter.
Yeah, I think, okay, so we lasted like a big update at new year's, right, which is
I was Like six months ago, Colleen.
Oh my gosh. That was June, and that was six months ago. So I feel like if we look at, if we want to like look back, I think for you, when we started the podcast, you were kind of, you like had your business in obscurity, like
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.
You guess? So. No. No, for sure, so.
I was in an obscure artisanally crafted founder.
Well, I feel like we are so now active on the internet. I feel like before that, I mean, you guys were running a super successful SAS, like before we started the podcast. I mean, not kind of well-known in the bootstrap.
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, I guess we had been to micro con once, like, and I talked to people on Twitter a little bit. Like. Yeah, but I guess I didn't really feel like a part of the community. I didn't really feel like I have. Like, as I felt like, you know, a part of like, you know, the independent, like software worlds, but yeah, I guess I didn't really uh, I dunno, I dunno.
I didn't feel like I had like a ton of, you know, community beyond, beyond the couple of people I knew and sort of some small communities.
So when I look at like your story, through this podcast journey to me, for you. I mean, you guys were already successful doing over. You say this publicly, right? Like over a million before, um, We started the podcast, but I think for you, so for me, when I think of the podcast, like, I think for you, it's more personal and for
Hmm.
business. So you. W okay. Relative obscurity, I didn't mean to make you feel bad. I feel like no one who you were, no one knew
I was a beside Japan only release of a founder.
Right. But that's, what's so interesting about it is like it also, it brings home the point that, that those of us, a lot of us are trying to build in public and be active on Twitter. And those things are good, but there's a lot of people like you and Mathias who are running million dollar plus sasses
And there's more of us too. Like I have friends who are in this position who are not.
Right. But I think for you, this has been kind of like an interesting personal uh, experience because we started the podcast and I feel like you really quickly started engaging with the community and became like a really active, well-respected member in kind of the bootstrapping indie hacking, whatever you want to call it community. And, that was kind of like a stepping stone to the book.
And then obviously the book U S you know, speed wrote that and like we're so, and have been so active on podcast and the book, and then of course the burnout.
I think was that really coming sort of to reus was like that, you know, I think when, when we started the podcast, I had just moved to a foreign country in the middle of a pandemic. So I, didn't have any friends. You know, my in-laws here of course, like, so I had family, but I basically just needed people to talk to um, and to feel like I had friends.
And yeah, I think kind of the burnout was a little bit of like, you know, there's some instances where people were kind of, putting me on a pedestal a little bit. And I was like, oh God, like, I don't want this. I was like, I'm not in this to be famous. I just want friends.
Um, So I, Yeah. I guess that kind of drove that a little bit, but also, you know, the book also came out of being like, you know, I used to just hop in a phone call with people if they had questions about doing like product strategy or user research, or kind of anything sort of related to that and being, you know, six to nine hours, time zone wise away like that just wasn't as possible.
And so then that made writing a book more important because it was a way for me to sort of scale myself when I just genuinely didn't have the ability in my calendar to do, you know, just have those sort of impromptu phone calls with people from Twitter anymore, unfortunately.
Yeah. Um, and so then the book and then like all the accumulated burnout and like recovering from that. So that's kinda what I meant when I said, I feel like for you, it's kind of like been more of a personal journey. And for me it's
Yeah. Though, I mean, so speaking about, I mean uh, where we're going, I think actually for me, it's going to be more of a business journey. We're actually for a reason that I don't know, if I don't think I told you yet, actually.
I'm on pins and needles over here. Geez. Okay. Michelle, we're like 10 minutes into the podcast. I
burying
to but you're
Totally burying the lead. Um, We are making our first hire, like full-time hire.
Oh, that's wonderful. I'm so happy for you.
The next yeah, six months or so that's going to be me figuring that out, an us, you know, going from being a two person only company to a three person company, of course. Plus, you know, we still have, you know, contractors, I still get like a VA. Right. I feel like that's kind of, part of it is like I got, I finally got a VA last January and of course, you know, we always had an accountant and a lawyer before.
Felt a little bit different, and so us kind of very slowly branching out into not being, you know, just the two of us. And, we also decided to go through SOC two. So there's kind of a, there's a lot of actually business stuff going on. And I think the book and kind of all of that sort, stuff is going to be a little bit less of a focus also because, you. know, I'm, you know, the, the book is written.
I'm not writing the newsletter really any more just to update people when I'm doing like a talk or something. I am going to conferences, which I'm super excited about. yeah kind of less of a focus.
kind of person are you hiring
Um, so a combination, their title will be contents and support engineer. So a combination of technical support, and also um, like basically developer focused content. So like creating sample projects, creating tutorials on how to do things like from a, you know, a developer's perspective of, if you need to build an app that, you know, let someone look up their congressperson. Here's a sample app and rails that lets you do that.
For example, that's like a full tutorial on how somebody could build that, for example.
So you were prepared to pay a developer salary.
Yes.
Okay. So you're hiring, you're essentially kind of like what Aaron does a Tuple. Right? It sounds like, Like developer, marketer, content, e.
Uh, It will be different than Aaron's role. I kinda, yeah. I mean, in that same sort of content engineering space of like, building tools and resources for developers, I feel like Aaron's role is a bit different and also this one is, half support as well.
Half support. Okay. So will they also help Mathias with like tech stuff or no? Will they be on call. and how will you handle that
I think we have. Not now. Yeah. I think it's two. I think really what would be helpful is like somebody, you know, we get a support request. It's like, Hey, I'm having trouble with your Python library. And like, it's something that like I can do a little bit of very basic API troubleshooting, but, um, not too much. And so, and like, if we could just you know, take that off of Mathias has plate I think that would really help. Um, like I've gotten help.
you know, I have the VA, I have a bookkeeper, we have an accountant. We have like lawyer, like I've, I've gotten some help on some of the sort of low hanging fruit tasks for me, but Mathias hasn't really gotten that help. Um, And so I think that's kind of where we're hoping that they will plug in and also. You know, but also, you know, grow in that role, um, as well, but then also both of us have to figure out how to be. managers because
It's only one person, you don't really have to be.
yeah. Yeah. I know. But both of us were like, Oh we just love that, it's just the two of us and it's, there's no drama and it's so calm. Like, so I know, I know I'm just saying we, both of us will have to figure out like how to do that. We'll probably have to have a lot more process, like you know, actually have to have like
Oh my gosh. This is so.
uh, like, uh, actually prioritize all of our issues and to do's and like, I'll have to do some actual PM-ing. so, And then, you, know, how SOC two changes our business, like the intent of doing that is not to grow it's to, again, lighten the load for Mathis so that he doesn't have to be spending hours in security reviews for our enterprise customers. And instead we can just send them over SOC two audit report.
And, hopefully that saves a lot of time, but then again, whenever we make improvements to our product, it tends to grow. And so then it's always like,
Oh,
So now we have to deal with that. I know. I'm sorry. I just, yeah, I sound terrible. I know. It's so it's so it's so hard. But you know, I mean, we're recording today. It's almost eight o'clock for me, like, you know, I have a family, like, you know. It's just a constant negotiation between, balancing like, you know, life and, the business. And um, and yes, I recognize it's an enviable position to be in and I should not be complaining.
It's just, it's a challenge of like making ourselves more efficient and automating and yeah.
I feel like you can absolutely complain because you do have challenges.
I mean, we've realized we haven't gone on a work free vacation, for eight years.
Eight years. Yeah. I was giving you a hard time, but I mean, you were here and you, you guys like, yeah, I saw, I saw you. So, I mean, I understand, I mean, I saw you and like how you, because it's just the two of you, you can never be fully disconnected ever. I get that. That is a real stress. And that is a real challenge. I am really proud of you for trying to hire someone. I think it's going to be amazing.
But speaking of your crazy schedule, people ask me what you do all day and I have no idea. So um, I got a suggestion, not for this episode, but like for a future episode, like to do a day in the life of Michelle as the co-founder of , because I'm like she works all the time. I literally don't know what she does.
Like keep like a diary or, oh God, should I become a tick tocker, who's like, here's my day in the life. And now this
how to
do my dance now. Um.
But it was like a real question. Cause I was like, I don't, no one knows what you do.
What would you say you
like a big mystery. What would you do here? I don't mean my response was, I was like, I think she just negotiated enterprise contracts all day.
I do spend a lot of time on that. I do a lot of time with, yeah. I mean, negotiating contracts. It's a lot of, like product type work too. I mean, so lately, you know, I'm chasing down data files for redistricted, congressional districts and state legislative districts, like um, you know, today I was talking to a potential data vendor trying to license some of their data. You know, of course, talk to the person we're to hire. I mean, I was also like,
oh,
oh yeah. oh, yeah, no, I mean, we haven't verbally agreed to um, oh yeah. I guess I should make that clear. Yeah. It's like, Yeah. And they've been consulting for us for a month. So when it seems like it's a good fit. So I guess, yeah, I mean, it, I mean, okay. But like your story of everything going on with hammer stone and refined in the workshop, I mean, that's just like, that's really interesting. That's more interesting than my life to me, quite frankly. So like, I would rather
No. I mean, it is very interesting. Like I have a little. Like, yeah. I have a lot going on, like I do and things for me because of where I am change frequently. So
growth stage of things.
The beginning. Exciting. Yeah. Like, is it going to work? Is it not, how fast are we going to grow? No, it is very exciting. And I get that and what I'm doing is, really cool and very fun and very energizing. But anyway, Yeah, I realized I have no idea what you do. I was like, I don't really know. I mean, she just eats bond bonds and pick strawberries all day. Kidding. I know you work all day, but that is like, the thing is like you work all day, but I don't know what you do. Um, yeah.
Diary or something.
Maybe it would be fun. I think you should. I think like maybe for like a day or
I'm going to just do a lot of like operational. stuff. I mean, you know, I mean, do customer support, like I follow up on invoices, right? Like, you know, just make sure like the sort of that house is in order with contracts and invoices and everything like that. I mean, replying to customers, negotiating contracts, doing, you know, product touching stuff, right. Writing content, you know, writing guides about how people can use our product.
Yeah, and then I, you know, admittedly, I do a lot of podcasting, too, which is probably too much, but I'm I'm kind of excited for it to shift from like talking about the book on podcasts, which I will still do, but like more so like going to conferences. To what we said, like of why I do this, you know. First of all, the reason why we do this podcast is to force us to talk to one another every week. Everybody listening, I'm sorry, this podcast is not for you.
It's for Colleen and I um, but then really it's, you know, to make friends. Right. So I'm excited to just talk to people in person, which, what a novelty um, at a conference. Yeah. That's that's me for like, Six months. to a year. hope is kind
Six months. Yeah. Cause we probably won't do another check-in until, oh my gosh. I can't. Okay. First of all, yeah, six months from now, we'll probably do it next year, 2023, which is weird. So a lot's going to change
I mean for you. Yeah. I mean, the big thing for you is like you have this like cliff coming up in August of does Colleen have to go back and get more clients again, or can she stay full-time on hammer stone or refine or whatever we're calling it these days. Okay.
Refine. Here's the deal, Aaron talked about this, I'm committing To refine. No, like it's not that I don't appreciate what you're saying, but I feel like you, you give suggestions about things, would matter when we're in a million dollar business and
Yeah, but you don't want to get a cease and desist from somebody like right. That's not fun. I know people who that's happened too. We got one for one of our freaking like a mobile app we made once, we got a cease and desist because somebody had a trademark on two words in our phrase, just did it takes five seconds, go do a trademark search. You don't actually have to file the trademark, but just go do the search before you commit to refine so that you know, that it's at least available.
Yeah.
That's actually, that's also the kind of thing like I deal with was you know, one point I was filing the trademark application and then, you know, I'm not a lawyer. And so I filed it wrong. And so that actually had to, you know, ask our lawyer to go do it and like, just, I don't know, like little stuff like that, but it's actually important. to.
Yeah. Yeah, so since we last did an update was January. So this is June today. Oh my goodness. So the next six months for me, it will a lot will change because in the next six months, we are going to, I mean, we're all in on refine and so, or hammer stone, whatever we call it, but I'm going to call it, refine for the immediate future. We're all in on refined. So it's going to be getting this product off the ground.
I mean, it's just going to be head down, try all the things and get this out there. So it's going to be really exciting. I think a lot is going to change between now and January. Yeah. Even I've already started kind of making the shift. We hired a contractor, a rails guy, and he's amazing. And so he is doing more of the technical work right now, so I can focus on more of the business.
So I still, yeah, so I still have to do a lot of technical work, but before it was like a hundred percent like 40 hours a week technical. Right. Whereas if we're going to grow this as a business, like I have to business. So it's an interesting thing though, because as I do more business, I'm not getting those consulting dollars. So my actual personal income goes down so I can focus on building the business. Which is exactly what I want to be doing, but also it's kind of like, oh, okay.
Like good to, good to know. Good to, good to see. So yeah, so the next six months for me, or this is definitely going to be hammer stone, scale back consulting. And my sister was here this weekend, and she is off maternity leave. And so she is ready to start working on simple file upload again from a marketing person. So she has all kinds of ideas and she's all excited. So I'm going to let her run with that. So hopefully she can, you know, run with that and see if we can
But you just said you're all in on Hammerstone, but then you just told me that you've got this resource coming back online, so to speak, and she's going to be focusing on simple file upload and not refine.
Right. So I think all in. I mean, I'm working a lot right now. If I can scale back consulting, I think I'm going to have time to do both because remember my business partner has a job and a half already, so I think I will have, we'll see. I mean, I'm, you know, obviously open to managing things differently if I need to, but I think I will have time for both um, once a consult goes away. And then I can a simple file, upload revenue to offset what I'm not making from consulting.
Right. So I think, I remember last time we talked about the work your sister was doing, you were basically putting the leftover profit into her work. Is that still how you're thinking about that?
Yeah. For now.
What is it like, what is the revenue level of simple file upload right now, if you're, are you still
It's like, yeah, it's not, I mean maybe if it actually makes like crazy money, I'll stop sharing it. Yeah. It's right around fifth, try to run 1500.
so it's been about that level for like a year now. Like it got to like 13.
No, it got to like, I mean, it's, if you look at the graph, it is growing, but it's growing like 35 bucks a month. So. Yeah, it's been stagnant for, I wouldn't say a year, but she went on maternity leave in September and I think September was the last time we really thought about it. So, and it's been relatively stagnant. It's grown like 200 MRR since September. So it's been pretty low um, just hanging out, but we haven't, I mean, she and I were talking about this weekend.
We haven't done anything on it since september.
I mean, that's 1500 bucks a month that you did not have previously, which
And
over months of not doing
yeah, totally. So the thought is like, if she can put her full effort into marketing that cause it's really, I mean, nothing is ever feature complete, but it's feature complete ish. So she's going to kind of put all of her time and effort in. And see where we can go with that. And then I'm going to be primarily focused on hammer stone and see where we can go with hammer stone and hopefully, know, the stars will align, to, to do.
Where Is Refine at? like, like, so last we talked with Erin, you had sold two licenses. Is that the pre-sold
I pre-sold two rails licenses. I want to say I figured it out. Cause I wanted to know what our MRR was and I think it's like three, if we take, so we sell annual licenses. I think we've,
ARR then?
ARR I think is like, I think we've sold five licenses total.
Oh,
Yeah.
I guess it Includes us. Right.
Includes you guys. licenses total, not including the two like productized consulting contracts we had. So, yeah, so there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of uh, of opportunity there and it's already, I mean, we've already sold five licenses, which is pretty cool because we only have one product that's done
And so, I mean, you said you're going to be shifting more towards doing business stuff. Like
business.
what kind. business. stuff.
it's
are you going to learn how to do this nebulous business stuff.
I feel so good about this. I feel like I know exactly what to do. Isn't it.
W which is.
Okay, well, first thing, Aaron and I are completely redoing the landing page because if you go to our landing page, you can't really tell what the thing is or what it does or why you'd buy it. We are going to do um, we got MailChimp set up, so we're going to do like a marketing automation sequence. And it's going to be like how to do XYZ with refined, like friendly, friendly marketing emails.
You know how to get that report, your boss wants with refine, how to let your user search by XYZ with refined stuff like that. Um, I have other stuff on my list. Those are two big ones to start. Oh. And the calls, the calls. So we have a, we have an email list of 500 people. So we're going to like pump that list and get, get on the phone with people. We have a call scheduled for Friday. He was scheduled last week, but he had to cancel last minute, which is totally makes sense.
So we're trying to do one a week right now and we'll pick that pace up, like once we get going. But the big push for us right now is the calls and the understanding what people need. I'm trying to do this thing where I'm doing like a founding customers on the rail side. So I'm going to take five pre-orders only, and those five pre-orders are going to be like. Beta testers. And they're going to kind of be like founding customers.
So they get to be, they could have like private slack channel access to us and they get to be involved in the product roadmap and figuring out like what we build and what, how it ends up integrating with rails applications and all that stuff. So, um, yeah,
Oh, interesting. I remember, um, you know, Jesse Hanley from bento. I think he's still. I don't know if all of his customers or a subset of them, but I certainly a lot of them get access to a discord with him. Like just as like a regular thing. People seem to really like that. I mean, I guess you're kind of risking that you're going to get at all hours. So I don't know how he manages that but that might be an interesting thing to ask him.
Yeah. I mean, we're, we have such a, with five people, I think it'll be fine. And maybe we'll do that on the Laravel of Alside too. I got to ask, what he wants to do, because we do have to balance like all the inquiries um, against our time. But I think at this early stages, like pushing those one-on-one interactions is really what's going to move the product forward and we can, you know, figure out exactly what people need build that.
I think, we talked about how the list you felt like it was actually, it was like the developers who are not actually the end by, of the product. And so I'm curious, like, how are you going to, and maybe we're getting too in the weeds for this conversation today, but like, how are you going to get to the people who would actually be the buyers?
I'm not sure yet. I think we'll just start reaching out to these people one by one. Once we get them on the phone, like that's the question you asked? Can you, can you, make this decision? Can you buy this? Like, who is the person who would make this decision? Like who is your end user? Um, cause we have two real use cases.
We have the use case where you have, kind of, we talked about it a little bit on the pod next, last week, where you have the developer who implements it and they're trying to allow their marketing team to build reports. That's when use case, which is a completely different use case from like my real estate clients where it's forward. It's user. So for them refine is so their users can come in and filter on properties.
Oh, interesting. You have real estate
my client, so my consulting client is a real estate company and we have like uh, they have, a really poor, like fuzzy search situation that just did not work. And so refined is perfect for them because users come in and they're like, I want a three bedroom house and, you know, Mechanicsville, Pennsylvania that was listed within the past week. That is literally the perfect use case for refine.
You know, it's funny as a, we have a lot of customers who are also real estate companies, like you know, searching for apartments or houses or whatever, wouldn't it be so awesome if like there happens to be a real estate website that uses both geocoding and
Yeah.
That would be
Yeah. Honestly, Now that I'm telling you this, I'm like maybe we're reaching out to the wrong people. Maybe we shouldn't be, I mean, developers, maybe that's they, maybe we need to like focus on niche markets, like real estate company.
Yeah. I mean, if they've found it difficult to
Oh, yeah.
Maybe a
That's an interesting idea.
Does it, our friend, um, Chris with jet boost, doesn't he do a lot of like filtering and sorting stuff for jet boost. Right.
Yeah, I think so.
I feel Like you should talk to him about this. Cause his, I mean, of course his customers are all on, sorry, they're on Webflow. They're not on jet boost deck was, is his product. right. But like adding, filtering and searching for web flow. And I was, I'm wondering if you could. If talking to him might be helpful for you in understanding like the use cases a bit in terms of like how people discover they have this problem. Like,
a great idea. I will. Um.
But like it's definitely kind of similar. Yeah.
that's a great idea. I should, I should ask him. And like, now that I'm talking to you, I mean, If we want to niche down, this might be, this might be the way. This is a really interesting idea. I like this idea. Hmm. Yeah. Okay.
Who's going to pay you. Right. You
Yeah. There's a plan.
on demographics and
I've just, I, it was just this idea that I was like, oh, the real
Talk to them.
think this is
Talk to them, even though your client.
Talk to
right. Well, so me for the next six months, you know, figuring out calm, sustainable growth, ish direction. That sounded better in my head. And then it came out and I was like that, that, that is not, um, no, but, you know, being, you know, just continuing to be a sustainable company, but maybe with a bit calmer from our perspective, right. Even though, as we tackle these big things, like learning how to manage and, and, you know, going through, um, SOC two audit, which is kind of a VFD.
And then for you, it's, figuring out how to business, which has been the, been the thing kind of from the beginning, but now I feel like you're, you know, I feel like you're in the major leagues now. Right? Like this, this, is it time to business. You know, kind of get down to business, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that wraps us up for today. And also, so, I mean, this is our hundredth episode and it's still our 101. A hundred and first I can't speak my own language anymore.
Um, Episode, I am still, I just so filled with sort of a, awe and gratitude that we have all these people who listen and support our show. I mean, Yeah, it just still, still kind of blows my mind. So, we want to give a huge, thanks to all of our listeners who become software socialites and listen, and support our show. Uh, You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year at software social.dev/supporters.
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All right. Well, oh, I guess. Oh, we should probably say, I think, I think we might've one more. So, so we're coming up on this summer and Colleen and I will both be traveling and both be traveling sequentially. So I don't think we're either one of us is going to be able to like re we'll be like in this. Well, we're not gonna be the same place, but have like the ability to record together for like five weeks or something. So we're going to be doing a lot of guests over the next couple of weeks.
I'm really excited about these, conversations. And I hope you guys enjoy it as well, but then Colleen and I will be back, uh, August, end of July together.
Oh, and I'll have big updates
the deadline.
be exciting.
of all going to be on pins and needles for the next, uh, yeah.
Twitters. I will be tweeting a lot.
I hope you all Cause I, I will get the updates there too. Um, So we will regroup in August and we will find out has Colleen learned to business and has Michelle learned to manage tune in? Um, But yeah, in the meantime, having some friends come by and. I hope you'll enjoy that as well.