¶ Introduction and Early Career Overview
🎵 Music
Hey folks, welcome to another edition of the Rip Snorting High Octane Thrill Ride of a podcast that is Soda Jerker on songwriting. We've been on one heck of a run of guests lately, and this episode is no exception. Joining us today is one of the most celebrated singer-songwriters of recent years. A member of Canadian music royalty whose beguiling Baroque pop has earned him a huge following and has seen no less than Elton John describe him as the greatest songwriter on the planet.
He's just released Vibrate, a collection of some of his best work from across his 16-year recording career, along with a bonus disc of live tracks and rarities, and we couldn't be happier to have him with us to discuss that and much else besides. We are of course referring to the incomparable Rufus Wainwright
Exciting stuff indeed and oh news just in. A few moments ago Elton John declared you and me to be the two best songwriters in this studio right now. Isn't that nice? Thanks Elton. You know, I was thinking earlier about my introduction to Rufus' music and I think it was an interview with Andy Partridge I read about nine or ten years ago, where he cited Oh What a World as one of his favourite songs of the moment. Right.
Andy is a man of fine taste, so I sort it out and found sure enough that it was an absolute masterpiece. I seem to remember you hipping me to the glory of cigarettes and chocolate milk around that time as well. Right. The song That Is, not the actual items.
So basically you were an empty vessel until I found you, is that what you're saying?
Exactly.
Well it's good you're finally acknowledging that, right? We'll hear from Rufus in just a few moments, but first, as always, we'd like to give you a bit of background on our guest. He was born in New York in nineteen seventy three, but spent much of his early life in Montreal, Canada, where he was raised by his mother, the celebrated folk artist Kate McGarigal.
His father is the hugely respected singer songwriter Loudon Wainwright III, so it can safely be said that musical talent was very much in his genes.
I also read somewhere that his first crib was a guitar case. Apparently his mum took him in to visit his dad in a recording studio on the way home from the hospital and there was naturally no crib in the studio so they used a guitar case instead.
Тадал честно.
We've all been there.
I do hope it was one of those deluxe hard shell cases with the plush for lord lining though.
Yeah, my daughter would never settle in anything else. Got to make sure you take the plectrums out first as well to choke and hazard.
And the capos.
No one's ever choked on a caper.
Have you choked on a capoe? Call in. Rufus took a piano at ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. He later briefly studied piano and composition formally at McGill University, but dropped out to plough his own furrow as a performer and a songwriter, performing at various venues around Montreal during the early to mid nineties.
And recording his first demos, which via his father found their way to one Van Dyke Parks, our guest a few episodes ago, of course, who was duly bowled over. Van Dyke in turn played them for DreamWorks own Lenny Warrenker, who promptly signed Rufus to the label, and his eponymous debut album was released in May of nineteen ninety eight, produced by another fine musician and composer, John Bryan.
The album was a modest success commercially but saw Rufus lavished with critical praise, its melodicism and lushness attracting comparisons with such illustrious singer-songwriters as Harry Nielsen and Randy Newman and even Cole Porter. The follow up, The Excellent Poses, was released in two thousand one and won Rufus a Juno Award for Best Alternative Album.
In 2003 and 2004, Rufus released the Companion Once One and One Two albums, once again meeting with massive acclaim from the music press and his peers alike.
The Nauties continued to be a prolific time for Rufus, as well as his recording commitments he kept up a tireless live schedule, including in two thousand six a number of shows recreating Judy Garland's legendary Carnegie Hall concerts of nineteen sixty one. In two thousand seven he put out his fifth studio album, the self produced Release the Stars, which reached number two in the UK album charts, and hit the Billboard Top thirty as well.
He also toured extensively in support of the album, following which he set about writing his first opera, Primadonna, which premiered here in the northwest of England, in Manchester to be exact, in july of two thousand nine.
Rufus' sixth long player, The Stark, Brooding, and Incredibly Intimate All Days and Nights Songs for Lulu. Saw him eschew the densely layered arrangements of previous albums in favour of just his piano and voice, and this stripped down approach has used a devastatingly emotional effect. His most recent effort out of the game was a conscious and successful effort to make a lighter, poppier record, as guided by the presence of producer Mark Ronson.
Rydyn ni'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi'n gadewch chi?
Just the nineteen. He needs to book his ideas up if you ask me.
Pure bone idleness. As always, we've helpfully compiled the Spotify playlist as a companion to this episode, so if you'd like a Rufus primer, do check it out. You'll find the link beneath the episode player on Rufus' page at our website, and we'll link to it on Twitter and Facebook too.
Should you wish to fraternise with us and other like minded young professionals on a no strings basis, drop us a line via sodajer dot com, follow us at Soda Jaker on Twitter or give us a like at facebook.com slash soda jerker.
You can keep up to date with our guest's activities at his official site rufuswainwright dot com, faceboom slash rufuswainwright official or at Rufus Wainwright on Twitter.
Okay, that's enough from us. Let's get into it with the man himself. Here's our chat with the sensational Rufus Wayne Rice.
🎵 Music
¶ “Vibrate” Curation and “Art Teacher”
So thanks for doing this, it's great to get this chance to talk to you.
No problem.
We were just saying it's great that we get to talk to you at this moment because with the best of coming out, we get to talk about a lot of different songs from throughout your career.
Yes, yes. No, I'm um gearing up here for what I hope will be uh successful uh you know journey back. through the years with with, you know, my public and uh and hopefully a bit of a new one too. So yeah, I'm excited about it.
And is it a pretty brutal process having to select your favourites for a release like that?
Well I I I gave it up to both uh Neil Tennant and also my publicist, Barbara Sharone. They're very good friends and I kinda let them do all the grunt work. initially and then I kinda came in at the end and and uh made some adjustments. Yeah, and that and that was actually more difficult in a sense'cause, you know, the deadline is, you know, in two days and you have to be pretty unsparing and stuff. But it was it was good. I th I think it's important for a best of
to to really reflect what the people like, you know, and what the public like. It's not so much about my opinion. Um but uh yeah, but i it it made sense when I when I saw it through other people's eyes, so
Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'.
Oh well thank you. You know, the art teacher has become a bit of a battle axe uh for me. You know, it's something that I seem to be able to play in a myriad of situations and and always get at least someone's attention.
Well it's got a lot to recommend it, hasn't it? You know, it's a story song and then it's got those very moody chords and you're dropping in all those great phrases like Metropolitan Museum and John Singer Sargent and
And it's easy to play on the piano. So it's it's not like I'm torturing myself, you know, instrumentally, which is uh always good in a crowded room.
Well, any song that can work in uniformish pant suits sort of thing is a triumph in our opinion.
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
The first time I heard that song I I thought it was kind of an autobiographical love song, but you seem to be writing from the perspective of another character when you say I was just a girl then.
Yeah, I yeah, well I wrote it after having um a crush on a on an actual art teacher. Um it's funny because I mean I was fairly young at the time. I I guess I was in my twenties and he was probably my age. And now I think about him and he was you know, just anybody in their early twenties I don't know, it just seems like a child. Uh but uh but I was in love with him and and he seemed older than me.
That's what's freaking me out right now. But um but but but he he was an art teacher and he was very handsome and he would tell me about, you know, these kind of Indiana Jones type stories of him, you know, teaching his classes and And then these young girls, the fourteen year old girls just, you know, completely throwing themselves at him. And it kinda turned me on. And I wrote that song sort of from their perspective. It was kind of like it was payback time for for the women.
🎵 Music
¶ Collaborations with Key Songwriters
We were also really pleased to see World War 3 get a physical release for the first time.
Yeah, no, that was uh I'm really happy about that'cause that was you know, when I did that, um with Guy Chambers on his T V show uh there was a kind of uh I I wasn't aware of it at first, but then turns out that there was some sort of law in England um concerning the BBC because I guess there's public money involved.
in that um institution that you can't really release no you can't make money off uh off something you do on that on that T V channel for I think I think there's like a moratorium. It was like six months or something you have to wait. All right. So we couldn't really release it, um, by law. But now we can. So it's coming up.
We really enjoyed that programme, The Secret to the Pop Song. We had Guy on the podcast actually and we asked him about World War Three.
Right.
I think he still wasn't quite sure about the don't bore us get to the chorus line, but you know.
We've worked a lot in the meantime. I mean I was just in Los Angeles And we wrote some songs there together and actually him, Robbie and I wrote a song that I I mean, I won't get too into it because it's not part of my show, but I'm I'm pretty sure you're gonna hear it fairly soon in Robbie's concert, but that's all I'll say. So uh so yeah, they've they've become mates, you know, which is nice.
Were you surprised when Guy told you about his nothing over four minutes rule?'Cause a lot of your work is quite expansive in length, isn't it?
Um, you know, I've actually that's one of the things that I that I uh one of the reasons why I wanted to work with him because I do have that um chronic uh song fatigue uh syndrome issue where uh yeah, time fatigue. So I I I I do tend to go on for a bit. So so it's nice to have Guy there to monitor that. But I will say that I in working with him I I've kind of gone full fledged the other way and uh sometimes I write them shorter than he wants.
There's moments when he's like, We could add an extra something and and uh so I tend to overcompensate, I guess.
I think you said in that programme that the co writing process is usually like going to the dentist's
Yeah. It is. It is. Well it I I just think w the thing that's unique about Guy and um and really lovely it's that he's not, you know he's definitely okay with being in the background. Um, you know, like when he's touring with Robbie, you know, he's just playing in the orchestra and and, you know, there's no Maybe there is in in this show, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like he needs his, you know, star turn.
uh, regularly. He knows how to sit back. So I still feel like the celebrity, whatever. Um but but on the other hand I think it is a two way street because at the same moment you also have to respect him and have to kinda like Be open to what he has to say. Perhaps it's more writing with another artist who is liable to um, you know, decapitate me when I'm not looking.
🎵 Music
And you've also worked very productively with people like Mark Ronson. Would you say he and Guy are just more compatible with your musical sensibilities?
Well, I mean, I god, I don't know what my musical sensibilities are to begin with, so I would say They're handsome. And that helps Um not that it should be a rule, but uh I mean I would say that the maybe there's something about them having a more of a, you know, European or English
background that uh that helps because it is I know there's been some kind of sympathetic relationship between me and and and and a more European um sensibility. Um but that being said, I don't know, I enjoy putting my neck out, you know, and and um and I'm totally willing to, you know, work with Jay Z if he'd have me and or whoever uh over on this side of the pond and
Does that mean we'll finally get that rap album you've been promising?
Yes.
Yeah.
It's coming out tomorrow.
Yeah.
It's called Beyond Beyoncé. No, it's
I like it.
Yeah.
Anyways, I I I'm pretty good at working with a lot of people.
¶ Creative Process and Career Launch
So ultimately then, would you say that your best writing happens when you're alone at the piano? Is is that where you're most at home?
Um, well I mean for me the piano is definitely a kind of um almost, you know, divining rod or, you know, sledgehammer, however you want to put it. It's some sort of kind of communication uh tool uh to either, you know, nurture or kill. Um and uh so yeah, that's probably where I get the the the highest and the lowest.
Um but that being said, you know, my dad is a real guitar guy, um and and I do play the instrument. I'm not a particularly adept at it, but I enjoy, you know, banging away and um And that can come in really handy'cause it is there's something about playing an instrument that you're not totally proficient in that that frees something up, you know, it it's less sort of weighty and stuff. So but yeah, but when I really get into the camera, that's when when the when the dark magic happens.
And do you ever write away from an instrument while you're just out walking around or
So oftentimes I mean what for me one thing that's really uh essential is is walking actually. I mean and and just the the whole thing of uh of getting into this rhythmic movement and kind of, you know, visually zoning out on, you know, the the world around you and and being kind of hypnotized by existence and
And oftentimes I've gone out for a little stroll and especially in London actually. London's a perfect town for that. Um'cause you go through all these strange kind of different universes in in that city. Um and then you kinda get home and the a song has uh has has been born. So it's um so yeah, so I often write actually without an instrument at all.
I think Zebulon's an example of a song that happened that way, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, I wrote that uh I I was visiting my mom in the hospital in Montreal and uh It was late at night and and I decided to walk through the park and it was very, very cold, extremely cold. And I don't know if you've ever been to Montreal but there's this big mountain in the middle of Montreal.
and uh very beautiful and and the hospital was right next to that mountain and and our apartment was on the other side and I just kind of walked home uh in the cold from that experience and you know I got home and the song had arrived and it was sort of I mean I'm very much
You know.
A friend of mine, this this fantastic woman, uh Cherry Vanilla, I don't know if you've ever heard of her. She's if you Google her, it's she's had quite a life. She used to work a lot with David Bowie and and Van Gallis and all these people, but she uh she's like a real sixties, seventies Die Hard Survivor, um, Rock Chick. But she anyway, she's gotten really into this whole what is it, strand theory or you know, this sort of physics
You know, with this thing of existence where, you know, it takes seven seconds for us to actually make a decision no matter even though it seems instantaneously. And there are all these measures coming in and I've always been very, very um attuned and very uh really ruled by that idea that that it's not me, that I'm just sort of a r a receptor and and uh and the less I kind of
install myself into it uh the the the more I get out of it. Um I'm getting all hippy dippy now. I'm I was just in California for two weeks, so Canada hasn't hit yet.
🎵 Music
Another recent guest on the podcast was um Bandike Parks.
Oh wow, that must have been exciting.
Very interesting, yeah. But we didn't actually realise the role that he played in the development of your career.
Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, he's without Van Dyke I w you wouldn't be you wouldn't be not seeing me today.
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
No, I mean Van Dyke um is really responsible for my career in many ways. I mean, it's interesting'cause a a lot of people say, Oh your your parents were musicians and therefore you had, you know, more of an opportunity and there's there's a grain of truth in that. Um And certainly when I was in my early twenties, late teens, um, my father, Loudon, was somewhat perturbed by my existence, you know, in terms of, you know, going to gay bars and hanging out with uh older men. And uh
uh basically he felt I was in some some danger at that time. So so he I I'd done a lot of demos of songs and he he asked a friend, you know, what what they thought of the uh of the recording and th this friend of of his said, Oh, you know, he sounds a lot like Van Dyke Parks and then my dad, you know,
others on free will, um, out of fear probably, went to Van Dyke who he didn't know personally. I mean they knew of each other, you know, they were in the same world and and gave Van Dyke my tape. But that's really where it ended because
once I mean Van Van Dyke, you know, my dad never went in and took any meetings with, you know, record company people or kind of fight he just kinda passed the tape along. Um and Van Dyke immediately got it and completely um you know decided to uh champion my cause and, you know, went to DreamWorks and Lenny Walker and and and and and you know, thrust it on the desk and said, This kid's inevitable and um
But yeah, but it really began with Van Dyck. So Van Dyke's really the one who's responsible for everything. And um it I mean it's sa it's a bit sad sometimes because because a a lot of young musicians um ask me like well what what do you need to do in order to get ahead and become successful and I'm like, Well My advice is uh is to get a legendary musician to totally champion you um to, you know, the establishment and uh and that's
It's sad that it has to be that way sometimes. It doesn't always have to be that way, but that is what happened to me and um I'm very, very fortunate and lucky that that occurred. I mean it it's it's unusual. Um but it does uh it does tend to work. So go out there Sell yourself to someone famous.
Well, both you and Van Dyken for your quite dense, lush orchestral arrangements. Would you say he had any influence over your songwriting at all?
Um, well, I mean I uh what I what's interesting about Van Dyke and that whole movement, I mean, whether you think of him or Harry Nielsen or the Beach Boys and that that whole sensibility or Randy Newman and is that you know, I I didn't really know that much about their music. Um but uh I had gone to New York uh when I was quite young and been singing around there and really failed miserably. And it was right at the time that Jeff Buckley was on the rise and that whole more kind of heroin
sheep was uh was Doriga, as was, you know, um Kurt Cobain. So it was a much more kinda like hetero uh nihilistic sensibility uh whereas I was this, you know, kinda opera loving, gay piano kid. So I I didn't I really had a terrible time in New York and and and couldn't get arrested. Um and um that's a metaphor. Um I could have gotten arrested many times. But um
So I kinda failed miserably and I had to go back to Montreal, which at the time was not a hip cool place it is today. It was kind of a desert. a French desert and uh and then all of a sudden this whole thing with Van Dyke happened and I went to the West Coast and I I suddenly discovered that that was really more where my um kind of sensibility was
was understood. You know, I did relate even though I didn't know Harry Nielsen's music or Van Dyke's music or Randy Newman's music that well, um, it was so obvious that I was more in that going with that idea than what was going on in New York. or in Seattle, you know. So I did sort of find my tribe and and at that point, you know, really got into all of those sounds and stuff and um those pet sounds and uh
And it was uh yeah, it w it was a homecoming of sorts. But I didn't grow up with that or anything. Like I didn't know it it existed. But it's interesting how that works.
🎵 Music
¶ Family Legacy, Voice, Signature Song
We often ask our guests whether they come from a musical background, but that question seems kind of redundant in your case.
Yeah.
Yeah. You are really an unusual product of such a folky background though, aren't you?
Well, I mean I'm I'm I'm very fortunate because um on one hand You know, I don't know how long it'll last. Uh I mean, you know, my daughter is obviously from a very big musical background as well. When you add up all the parts. And some good jeans there.
And there does seem to be some kind of I don't know, I wouldn't say renaissance but naissance maybe, of of uh of where, you know, everybody is hooked in here, you know, whether it's both my sister Lucy or my sister Martha or My aunt Sloane or or people and um and so it's kind of We all seem to be doing quite well in the music world
It does seem to be somewhat of a golden age, I guess, uh in my family concerning that. I mean, maybe it'll last, maybe it won't, I don't know. But um I hope it does. It's been fun.
Ha ha ha.
Could you specifically put down any of your songwriting attributes to your parents?
Oh yeah, very much so. Probably more with my mother than my father. I mean I I I highly respect and and admire my father's work. I mean his songwriting is incredible in his lyrics. Um but I I think what w what it would always Mostly impressed me with him though is his voice. I mean he's his
truly acrobatic singer. And uh um but but but I would say m I'm really more of my mom's I'm a mom of boy and her whole, you know, lugubrious mysterious Dark uh voyage through uh the pianistic lagoon is uh more where I tend to gravitate to.
Well it certainly sounds like you're describing yourself when you say that.
Yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Speaking of singers, we're big fans of your unerring vibrato.
Oh thank you.
Is it a challenge to write songs that serve your voice?
Um, actually not really. I mean I I my voice has this has a real hunger for all sorts of of uh of corners, you know, and and and be it, you know, Judy Garland stuff or opera or folk, I I tend to uh gravitate towards a sort of Freshly killed corpse. To devour musically. So uh yeah, I I tend to like to challenge myself vocally on many fronts. So it's uh so it's uh it's it's always a a fun thing to do.
Cause your approach to melody seems closely tied into your voice, in our opinion anyway, you know, the way you kind of sing those long legato phrases.
Yeah. It's interesting though'cause I mean speaking of uh I you know, I was in Hollywood the other day and uh I actually had a meeting with Duffy. Um she's a real very beautiful and very personable and um there's some project we're we we were thinking about and she came and she sang one of my songs and uh it's for something that I'm working on and and uh she has a gorgeous voice and it was interesting because it was very It was really refreshing.
to kind of separate my music from my voice.'Cause i I do think it is heavily linked and and I was relieved to hear, you know, a a w f especially a woman interpret uh a a song I wrote. Um You know, th th nobody can sing like me, man or woman. And and it is and they can and and in terms of these really long phrases, one has to do something else and and it's
it still remains musical if they're a good singer. So I'm um I'm looking forward to other people singing my work, that's what I'm trying to say.
¶ Lyrical Focus and Musical Complexity
Well, I think Cigarettes and Chocolate Milk is probably the first song I ever heard of yours, and probably a good example of that sort of approach. Is there a story behind the writing of that one?
Uh I was living at the Chelsea Hotel in New York. Right. And I was uh having a very nutty time um and f a very fun time, kind of uh very much um embracing my uh early attempted demise.
Yeah.
and uh laughably, you know, s careening towards death and uh and loving every minute of it. And and I think I was ex just extremely uh hung over one day and but had this strange penchant for uh for chocolate milk and just needed needed it desperately and then of course, you know, drank a whole carton of it and then felt absolutely ill. and smoked a cigarette and it was sort of like
when the song was born. And uh I think it's a lo a lot of it's sort of about just just um walking that fine line, you know, at at a certain age between um excitement and death and and and just being a and a and and I guess having the liberty and the the and the fortitude and the and the time to uh to play those silly games and and um
And I just I I think I captured that moment which which was nice. I was able to do it because it wasn't it was on the cusp of right before it became a little more truly dangerous. So so uh so yeah, I was lucky.
I always love the way that the song communicates those vices that you talk about and in such a simple way as well, you know, like the jelly beans that you have to eat in just one sitting and that sort of thing.
Yeah.
That is a good line. And it's all very true. I mean it is especially with jelly beans. I mean I've I I I actually do have the jelly beans.
🎵 Music
Is there one part of the songwriting process that's the most important to you?
Um well I mean I will I will say that lyrics are more important to me than music. I I mean a great melody is a great melody. There's no way to really quantify that. It's just an immediate fact, you know, when you hear something it you you can't really think about it too much. And I tend to be able to hone in on on on that whole sensibility pretty fast. Whereas lyrics are of course much more complicated and and are really um
you know, there are varying degrees. I mean, speaking of, you know, my family, you know, with Leonard Cohen in there now, um, it is interesting. I I think I've written a few good turns of phrases and stuff and and I'm very proud of what I've done and I would never And I think we are all different so to compare as stupid. But that being said, you know, that you know, he he is truly, you know, focused so fully on his lyrics and it and and and turned it into this whole other I'm just watching.
From the sidelines and um that that's fascinating to me. It's not necessarily somewhere I wanna go, but nonetheless it's it's nice to have that to um to emulate and to and to strive for, you know. And maybe for me, like there's some other there's some other areas like for instance like orchestration or, you know, the theater.
um drama I would say, where where I am kind of more into into the heavy lifting. So uh so we all choose our our path. But uh but but lyrics in terms of songwriting it is sort of the more sophisticated um branch.
A song like Mon Talk is one that really jumps out to us as a very personal and reflective look at your own life with very powerful words. Did you set out to write about your daughter with that one?
Well, I've already I've written three songs about my daughter, um already. So it kinda just happened naturally. Uh it's like also traditional in our family. I mean I had You know, when I was born my dad wrote a song called Rupert's is a Titman. about me breastfeeding. So, you know, let the games begin.
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And yet you're not afraid to use rhyme either, are you? I mean I was listening to Go Into a Town and I noticed that you use that scheme of town with down and place with disgraced and that sort of thing.
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I'm I'm old school in that way. Um one thing I would like to do w which I think is actually quite a good exercise, even though I don't do it a a lot. But it I it's something that I'd like to maybe focus on a little more And I have focused on it occasionally, uh, is to not have I or you in the song.
Bye.
Like I think or you think and then you did this and then I did that. It's an interesting exercise to try and write a song without I or you. Uh and uh That's sort of something I've I've twied with in the past.
Rydyn ni'n ôl i'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau, mae'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau o'r pethau
I love chords. That's one that's one area where I definitely feel Well dominant is a nice word to use if you're thinking about chords. But I I uh yeah, no I I I'm a sucker for um for little shifts, you know, cord wise, which which I do think is something that is somewhat I wouldn't say lost yet, but it's not necessarily um at the forefront right now of of pop music or even classical music for that matter.
Um, so I'm I'm very happy to be of service to that art because it is it is under threat at times I feel.
So that's something you consciously try and do, y you know, construct chord sequences and melodies that make surprising leaps and turns.
Yeah, no, I d I do a bit of that. But I but it has to make sense. I mean, I don't want it to be arbitrary. I don't want it to be just for the sake of being complicated. I mean that's That's uh silly. But um but but nonetheless it does by the same token dis differentiate me from a lot of people. I mean if we are gonna bring up Leonard again, which I seem to be today, I don't know why. But that's something where I'd say, Yeah, well I'd use a lot of chords.
And I know what I'm doing with those chords and whereas he and I and my father and and a lot of other singers tend to stick to a fairly, you know, traditional uh structure in terms of of of how a song is built. I've always treated a song much more like a like an aria Or kind of uh almost like leader, sometimes German leader that I'm very influenced by. So so uh yeah. I like to get all weird.
🎵 Music
¶ Opera, Education, and Artistic Drive
And we know that you studied music formally for a little while, so would you say that you're a technical musician?
I mean I studied formally, uh I went to a conservatory for about a year and a half, quite a good one actually, in in Canada and Montreal, but I failed every course. I w I really did badly.
So we wouldn't find you reading the scores of operas at home.
I mean I I got into it in a sense. I mean I I I got more interested in hanging out, you know at the art school, you know, down the street. But I but I then um one of the great things that happened at at at music school is that I you know, I when I was thirteen or fourteen I I became obsessed with opera. Which I'd maintain, obviously. And um
But but but one of the big moments was was listening to Verde's Requiem, which is a great piece. And uh and then when I went to music school uh university we sung it. We did it with an orchestra and I got to actually sing the piece. in the chorus and um and that to me was really what it was all about.
Uh
It was like a nice little bookend to that experience and so forth. So so uh I don't regret not um totally pursuing uh the classical agenda. And I will say actually that in retrospect, I mean I feel like I might have dodged a bullet there as well because
in my opinion, a lot of people who come in through that heavy duty conservatory system, they get a little bit indoctrinated and sort of You know, they they they definitely had to fit into some slot, you know, historically and and um I don't have those boundaries, you know.
that a lot of the classical musicians have. I respect them tremendously though. I don't I don't want to belittle what what those people do'cause I actually rely on it a lot right now, especially'cause in terms of writing operas, you know, I have to go to these orchestras and I have to play my works and But I think me having maintained my own personal view, uh, i i i is also important for them to uh to to to acknowledge and to uh take from as well.
Do you put pressure on yourself to come up with ideas and and carve out the time to sit down and make that happen?
Yeah, I know, I I do. I mean staying on the subject of opera, I mean writing saying, Well, I'm gonna write an opera, I mean, that's a lot of pressure. You know, you have to write music for two hundred musicians, you know, arguably. Um maybe not two hundred, but but uh but at least, you know, a hundred. Um so it's it's uh
i it's wild and insane pressure but but I thrive off of that. I mean I don't you know whether it's that or having sung, you know, the Judy Garland show at Carnegie Hall and then That's like going after someone else's academy. You know, um so it's uh Yeah, no, I thrive off the pressure.
In Song of You you say there are many melodies to choose from and we were wondering when you write, do you settle quite quickly on the melody or the lyrics or the chord sequence? Or is it kind of a process of endless choices that you have to make?
Well, I would say the melody and the and and the chord structure it comes pretty quickly. Um as I said before, the the lyrics are are are are are the bitch. So I have to um toy with those a little bit more. But um I mean there was a time I guess when I would write certain songs where I'd spend, you know, years on a on a on a piece
on a song. That sort of happened. Now that sort of transferred more into my opera work, you know, when I have to to have that same kind of sensibility. For now, I would say the best songs are are the ones that come the quickest, you know, where it's like a flash. And that's always actually been the case. With that being said, um
What I'm loving doing now actually the most in terms of really spending time on a song is doing arrangements. Um especially of my mother's songs. Right. I love going through her material and and and and writing these very kind of complex piano frames for them. So I'm I'm enjoying actually uh working on other people's music as well, believe it or not.
¶ Recent Songs and Collaborative Process
Another song we wanted to mention was Out of the Game, uh which was kind of a change of direction for you and has a very nice kind of seventies Californian pop flavour. Did you have that tune before you got together with Mark Ronson?
Yeah, I did. I did. I had all the tunes before. Most of them actually. There was one or two that that that came in while we were at the studio. But that that song was really kind of erupted, uh after uh Well, after my mother's death and I I think it was my return to a less sort of broken heart of a less uh a uh kind of a tougher world weary but you know
I mean my original concept for it was, you know, for the video was, you know, to have, you know, whatever the temple in Israel with all the people selling stuff and then me running in as Jesus Christ with a whip.
Yeah.
Hell in the bottom Carter is used, that would have been interesting.
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
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Another newer song with a really nice groove to it is um Me and Liza.
Yeah.
Which you co wrote with Guy Chambers. Lots of unexpected moves in that one as well.
Yeah.
What was it that brought you guys back together?
Well, I mean I mean we we had such a fun time on that show that we wanted to do it again and and also um he he spends a lot of time in Los Angeles. Um and I've been spending a lot of time there'cause my daughter lives there. And we just wanted to keep the ball rolling, you know. And uh what we did realize with each other is that we worked very, very fast together. I mean, we could we would pretty much do a song a day.
And that's that's pretty good. We we'd even do a couple sometimes. So uh there seemed to be some sort of groove that uh was was immediately established after that show. Once you do that artistically you really you gotta write it.
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Another of Guy's collaborators is Robbie Williams, of course, and all three of you co-wrote Swings Both Ways, the title track from his album.
Yeah.
Which has been a big success. Was that yet another kind of experience, the the three way songwriting collaboration?
Yeah, no, I mean it was great. I mean uh what was fun about it is that Robbie is hilarious. I mean he really he's like a little volcano that erupts. um every two minutes. And and it's funny to you know, and he and he he has he's very, very free with his um uh with his associations, you know, he'll just kinda go on and on and on and and a lot of it's brilliant, some of it's ridiculous and um but it kinda it's like this constant lava flow coming from his, you know, perky little hairdo.
And I would have to sort of interject occasionally with a well thought out um grammatically um orchestrated turn, you know. Uh and it was and it was interesting'cause it was it it worked really, really well. I seemed to know when to interject with something substantial that he would really latch onto and and enjoy. But um Whereas, you know, if we were both kind of spurting out these ideas at the same time it would be, you know, the apocalypse
Ha ha ha.
So uh yeah, it was a nice it was a nice juxtaposition'cause I I let him be, you know, his rambunctious self and I could sort of be the haughty Uh he was haughty, you know, H O T T Y and I was Haughty H A U G H T Y. And I'm up with some music. And and Guy was perfect in the middle. Guy was the grease, you know.
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¶ Future Plans and Episode Wrap-Up
So um Vibrate, the best of, is out in early March, isn't it? March the third, I think. And you've got quite a big tour planned as well haven't you?
Yeah, I mean it's fairly big. It's about two, three months, you know, which which is great. Um, it's not like you know, the last I I I really toured out of the game for about a year and a half. Um, not not consecutively, but we did Australia, we did South America, we did a lot of the United States, we did um a lot of Europe. But but now I'm focusing mostly on Europe and some of the US.
I don't wanna go out for a very, very long time, um because I I have some other projects to to really buckle down and work on and I have to be a good father and a good husband. So the times they are changing
And we heard you're working on a new opera, which is scheduled for twenty eighteen, is that right?
Yeah, I have an opera about Hadrian and I'm noticing you're got you guys have sort of northerny accents a little bit.
Yeah, we're from Liverpool.
Yeah, so it's it's it's, you know, related to uh you guys, a little bit Hadrian's wall. I don't think there's gonna be a li liver puglian scene or anything.
Maybe you can work one in.
Well I'll try to work with that breathe a illusion, a Liverpool illusion.
But no Beatles references.
No no no. Beetles and skirt.
We feel like we're part of the creative process here.
On my lawyer.
Yeah.
Okay, well thank you so much for chatting with us. It's been quite a pleasure.
Wonderful, wonderful, and I'll see y'all in beautiful Liverpool at some point.
That'd be great.
It's fun town, I've had fun there, it's a great place.
Fantastic.
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That was the very charming Rufus Wainwright talking to us from Toronto and typically witty and engaging he was too.
He's got a great way with words and
He certainly has.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about the lava coming from Robbie Williams' perky hairdo.
Yeah.
When he said about lyrics being the bitch, I thought that'd be a possible contender for Beyond Beyonce if he ever does make that out. We should also mention that this was almost the Great Lost Episode, shouldn't we?
Yeah, when we arrived at the studio, we had no way of knowing that a piece of software that we used had been automatically updated, and it now had a bug which was going to prevent our mics from working, so we panicked for a little while and punched each other in the face.
But we eventually hunkered down and here we are. So this whole episode has been an exercise in triumph over adversity, so you know, take that and and be inspired by our story.
Earn this. Guess it's time for me to put on my powdered wig.
And for me to be a total bastard.
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