¶ Podcast Introduction and Sacha's Overview
🎵 Music
I enjoyed your timely pause then, Brian or Cesura?
We also hope you've enjoyed the Spotify playlists that accompany each episode. They're a great companion to the podcast and really help illuminate the songbooks of the artists in question. So Simon, in the words of Eddie Murphy and Michael Jackson, what's up with you?
Do you remember that? What a horrendous song that was. Video. It was like Eddie Murphy in like a cartoon background picking daisies and dancing with Michael Jackson. Dreadful. A lot of military garb, I record.
That was MJ.
So what's up with me? Well, we've recently finished writing a song called State of the Art.
sydd wedi dod o'r master in-house. Mae'n llawer o'r newydd yn ysgrifennu. Mae'n llawer o'r hynny'n ysgrifennu. Mae'n llawer o'r hynny'n ysgrifennu ysgrifennu Caeli O'Neill. Caeli'n llawer o'r hynny'n ysgrifennu Caeli O'Neill. Caeli'n llawer o'r hynny'n ysgrifennu Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli Caeli so by the time you hear this podcast you should be able to go to the website and have a listen to both of those tracks if you like
That's true. Also there's been a bit of activity on the blog. Uh we recently posted a demo of a track we pitched to an artist a few months ago. It's called Lovers Undercover and uh we dusted that off last week and thought it sounded rather nice, so perhaps you will too. Check that out on the blog, that's blog dot soda jerker dot com. So Sai, what have we got coming up in today's episode?
Well in recent episodes we've spoken to a couple of veteran writers from the States. The first was Billy Steinberg, who's a writer who's written a lot of hits for artists since the nineteen eighties. ac yw Todd Rundgren, sy'n unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw.
Indeed he is. Sash is a Grammy nominated songwriter and two time Ivanovello winner. He's written with a host of people who've become household names in the past few years, chief among them James Blunt, Adele, Duffy and Jason Moraz.
Not a bad resume. He's probably best recognised as the co writer of the worldwide number one hit You're Beautiful for James Blunt, along with other standout cuts from the Back to Bedlam album such as Wise Men and Goodbye My Lover. And let's not forget he also co wrote Cold Shoulder with Adele and uh If It Kills Me for Jason Moraz.
Yeah, he's also a seasoned Session musician and producer and he's worked with the likes of Beverly Knight, Bon Jovi, Just Stone, Gwen Stefani and the Pussycat dolls. We're really glad to speak to someone who who was at the vanguard really of a new generation of professional UK songwriters. So here's our conversation with Sasha Scarlet.
🎵 Music
¶ Early Musical Journey and Classical Roots
Okay, well the first thing we wanted to ask really was uh if you could talk a little bit about how you became involved with music early on. We know you come from a classical background.
Mm my family's quite um musical, so my Uh grandmother was a concert pianist. My mum trained to be a concert pianist. From my father's side is the name Skarbek, we were uh Chopin's father was tutor to the Skabeck family. So the Skarbek's family p uh paid for Chopin's uh musical tuition, sent him to Paris, all that stuff. So there's a quite a long history within music with my family. So it was always it was always pianos around, it was always encouraged to
play. So I kinda started when I was a you know, really l little five, that sort of time. Um, and my grandma would teach me and and then I sort of just grew from that into w g being lucky to get some, you know, music scholarships to g a couple of really good schools where they uh I was able to move from just playing piano to sort of French horn, clarinet and study music more in a sort of theory
Side of things.
But I got to a certain time when I was about eighteen when I realised I wasn't good enough to be a classical pianist or be a classical musician. I also didn't have the temperament, I didn't have the the focus or the or necessarily the passion for that.
And I was kind of like,
Yeah, I was I was at a great music school but it was also a normal school so I got into playing s quite a lot of sport and girls and of course that always then changes things. So So it was more of a I I s I sort of stopped being so focused on classical stuff and got into I met a few people that were into jazz, so sort of just shifted over a little bit into into jazz and and you know, becoming interested in that in that side of music.
And I suppose that there were probably a number of people who also studied alongside you there who um would never have gone on to write pop material necessarily and and who might not have had the connections to progress in the music industries either. So, what was that transition for you? How did that come about?
¶ Breaking into Music Industry: Lucky Break
Eventually I went to I ended up I went to university and I started to read music there, but I met a guy at university who was um a saxophone player and he'd been to the Berkeley School of Music. But everyone else in the in the music class was I mean, it's horrible d uh but it's not horrible. They were pretty square and it was a bit you know, it wasn't wasn't necessarily the ones that I'd be hanging out with.
So but this one guy was kinda like I was like, Oh man, he's cool, he's sort of big beard and long hair and and he was like a he'd been to Berkeley so so I kinda hooked up with him and we jammed a bit. He then said, uh, Oh, do you wanna come to London? and jam with this band in uh in Ealing. And I was like, Well, okay, it seems a bit weird'cause I live in London but I'm now in Oxford, but we'll drive back at the weekend to Ealing, cool and
And so I started playing in this band, which was at the outset of there was this sort of movement which was called Acid Jazz. So it was the sort of times when brand new heavies, Jamiroqua, Galeano, all these kind of acts. And we sort of were in that kind of style of music and uh we began to do okay quite well and we were managed by Jamiraquai and Brandy Heavy's management then.
So that's what sort of s was my first real introduction into the industry as it were. And it it so it wasn't a sort of normal necessarily a normal route, but it's kind of one that we're you know, playing in a band happens to be the manager that that manages us quite a successful band manages you and then it then from that I met I started playing a bit for brand new heavies, started to
So the band that I was in was was okay, but it wasn't great. So it was we got a publishing deal with EMI, but we never really were gonna take off that that well. But I sort of realised I could, you know, through some of the connections I made there, I then got a very lucky thing which was the the bass player in the band
Um his best friend was a very, very good producer who a guy called Johnny Dollar. And Johnny Dollar did massive attack, Naina Cherry, um, quite a lot of uh Gabrielle, quite a lot of big things, but he was And one day he needed a keyboard player.
Ciao.
the bass player and his mate said, Well just use our one. He's good. He's he's classically trained'cause he needed something which was a little bit more classical thing. And the first thing that I ever did was a keyboards for him was a track with Nenacherry and Yuswendor called Seven Seconds. Oh right.
So that was a sort of um you know, big that was my kind of lucky break as it were into into it and when you get one little thing that you're then, you know, you can have as your calling card and Luckily in that instance it was quite a big calling card.
Yeah, it was a big hit that record.
Massive. But I hasten to add again, like a lot of these things, it it was initially it was penned only to be a B size. And it was only done as a little extra thing. And so there was no it was done in Nena's flat in Maidervale here in London, in a you know, tiny little sort of space. I had the keyboard on my knee just
Did it that way. It wa and there wasn't you know, it wasn't like I was sort of paid vast sums of money, I think like two hundred quid or something. But it was definitely a one of the first steps into it.
¶ Transition to Professional Songwriter
So were you already writing your own material at this point? If not, when did you start doing that?
Um, I started when I was at school. Because I used to not enjoy practicing the classical pieces that I was meant to be practicing and I didn't really enjoy but I was quite disciplined with myself about getting up in the morning at six o'clock to do that hour of of um of practice. But I would spend probably half of it noodling and pissing about. And and I was e again, it was I was incredibly fortunate because I was noodling about on a s on an eight foot Steinway ground in a big hall.
Yeah.
Not a bad place to so everything sounded amazing. I was like, Oh that's good. Um Started then but never really getting into you know, I I was too scared to to let any of it be seen or heard. Then I finally did a I think in my last year at school, so I must have been sort of seventeen, eighteen, I I used to organise these little rock concerts at school and I did one of those
one of my own compositions in there and a and it wasn't a it wasn't really even a song, it was a kind of, you know, just some chords and a bit of stuff on it. But it was my first sort of real thing. And then i i I it the actual real songwriting side of things came After this sort of stint of being a musician, session musician and playing with
the y you know, doing those the nana s sessions that and then working as a session player and playing in lots of bands. I really enjoyed it, but I also realized that I didn't want to be on tour for the rest of my life. I saw it as a quite a finite career. I could see that, you know, this is great, but only if you're so amazingly good and talented do you become the top top of your game and get to go on tour with
the Rolling Stones or the the really big uh guys. And then i i it's quite hard to make it as a as a job in musician, as a session musician. So I found a lot of people then that I was working with I sort of you know, I thought, Well, some of this is quite good but actually some of their songs aren't that
All right.
And you know, I'm you know, we're being handed this stuff to learn to then play out live and you know, and then there's a few sort of complaints about it and you're thinking well the reason why there's a complaint is because it's actually just not very good. So I started to think, well, maybe I could try and do this a bit. So I started trying to develop a relationship with some of the artists that I was playing with. Uh and at that time there was Beverly Night.
I was MDing her band and it came to a point where w she just said, Well, why don't you know, uh shall I just come round to the to your flat and let's try out some ideas and stuff. So I started writing with her And that was great to be able to that's when I made a sort of bit of a leap into that.
that side of being a a a writer and a few other artists similar to that where coming out of being the sort of M D of a band, just the Cuba player, I started to to develop a relationship with that the artists and then
You know, there was there's a sense of we had enough trust, we knew each other enough, and it was then, well, let's try writing something. And not all of it worked, but I got You know, a few things with Beverly on her record and that was quite an exciting uh you know, first time you get a cut on a big well, not a big but a a a relatively successful record.
¶ Songwriting Philosophy: Authenticity and Structure
Um, so would you say at that point that professional songwriting really became your career goal? Or did you still have other aspirations maybe to to be an artist yourself or anything like that?
No, for me personally I've never really had aspirations to be an artist because I can't sing like him, but it's pretty awful. I I love playing live, but I'm not uh I I I'm not a great I wouldn't be a very good friend. front person. And I think I it's probably because I've seen the really good ones what it takes to be that. And I'm not good. I'm not that good. So I see that, you know, I and at a l quite an early age. So, you know, age nineteen, twenty, when you see
You know, JK from Jamaica, or you see a a singer like uh Carleen Anderson or Beverly Knight or something like that, you're like, Oh wow, that that sort of artistry, that ability to be the centre of stage and that charismatic on the stage, I think I I would I'd crumble.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. What I sort of knew that I was gonna be good at was writing songs, helping artists in the songwriting process, in the in that creative side, uh express themselves and get their ideas across. And that's why that became I found that I I tend to r work more with artists rather than just sort of say for instance, just write songs for other people. I I do less of that. I'm I found myself if I if I can work with an artist, for me fundamentally what what people want to hear
in a song and in a in an artist is is honesty out of that artist, is what what is this person saying? W wha they're able to explain how I feel about something emotionally or or And there I think it's incredibly important that that comes from an artist. It's not just written by a sort of hit songwriter that's that's putting a sort of formula together to do it. I think, you know, yes, I help within the understanding of how
song structures work, how what will work as a hook, what will work as a a melody line, what will work as a concept and so on. But but the individualness of it coming out of an artist himself I think is is super important.
¶ Collaborating with James Blunt: You're Beautiful
On a related point, you're credited with taking a key role in the development of James Blunt as an artist. How did that collaboration come about?
Um, Blunty and I met when I was um oh gosh. quite a while back, I I had a small publishing company that I'd set up with at that time well think he still is, Beverly Knights manager, a guy called Alan Edwards and Dave Wolfe. Um We had a an assistant that come in. Alan runs a very successful PR company as well called Outside and as does Dave. Um and we had a really s um an assistant come in who had been at school with with James. And he was like, Oh, you must hear
this guy, he's really, really good. And it was a bit like, ooh, well, not sure. It was certainly because it was come from, you know, Harrow school and it was all a bit posh and a bit
So I sort of met.
Up with James then and slow he was still in the army. So slowly we just we started to ride together. I started to I helped him out a little bit playing gigs with him, doing just more than anything, developing a bit of a uh a relationship together where there was sense of trust and a and a you know, he at that time he really was
filled with lots of ideas, with lots and lots of you know, he had books, big book of lyrics and all these things. And he um but what he didn't quite know how to do was to how to structure it, how to how to bring how to bring it into a t into a song. He had it kind of like in phrases and stuff like that, but just piecing it all together. So I think more than anything I I added that to the equation. But it was you know, we've we did that and
Between two thousand and two and two thousand and four. In fact we wrote we wrote Your Beautiful in Los Angeles. But just around a piano, it wasn't like, Oh, we're flying off to Los Angeles to m to a Suji studio or anything like it. It was I happened to be working on a record out there and
uh he was like, Oh well I haven't got anything this week you know, I've never been to Los Angeles. Okay, we'll fly out and he was lucky, I think his um his girlfriend at the time w was Carrie Fisher's godmum or something like that. So he was staying with Carrie Fisher. much more exciting than the anything else with it. But you're beautiful just sitting around a piano.
in the space of about three hours. But he had some of the things already, but it was by that stage we'd got to a position where we you know, we we knew each other quite well, um So we sort of stuff came out quite quickly. Other things took longer. I mean I think goodbye, my lover. Did about ten versions of it and yeah, and you s y you'd think how is that possible when it's only got four chords in it?
So there's a there's a couple of specific things about um you're beautiful. There's the opening line where he he he suggests the first line but then doesn't continue. I don't know if that's something you get asked a lot, but it is was that something where he came in early when he was doing the vocal take?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what it was. I have to look back at the demo, but I'm pretty sure exactly the same thing happened on the demo. And so therefore it was like, Well Ashley, that's all right. Just leave it like that. It's kind of something a little bit more, you know it's like a sort of weird statement right at the beginning.
And the other thing would be the choice to use profanity as well in the song. I was interested in that decision because uh obviously it's a very potentially very commercial song.
That was one of those ones which was there was a little bit of debate over it. You know I I have to say I thought it was not cool. 'Cause I was a bit like, Oh, I'm not sure about you know, for me swearing in the song's just not a bit it's a bit like we haven't got another word to put there. But he was quite adamant about it. He was like, you know, fuck that, it is like you know, I wanna put this in there. So
He was good like that. He was quite he was really sort of um no, no, no, I this is what I think it should be. So it was yeah, it was his his call on that.
Right. And did anyone at the label object? I assume there was a label at that point for the song.
No, there wasn't at all. That song was written before label, before before anything, before publishing. I think even before we had a manager. Um but This is why sometimes when you're able to do development stuff, so you're able to work with artists at an earlier stage, you don't have any of these other outside influences coming in to play. It's just two people sitting in a room writing a song.
with nothing no regard for anything other than let's just write a great song. We're not worried that the A and R man that happens to be on the project is thinking about, oh God, we've got to please him and he's gonna go, Oh, that doesn't sound like it can go on the radio or all of these different issues.
We're just doing it. And I think that's the key with certainly with artists like Blunty Harry was. I think with you look at whether it's Adele to any of those big selling Amy Winehouse you know i it's this thing of like being left alone to to let their songwriting, let their artistry breathe.
Then there comes a time for the jobs of labels that do very well at marketing it, at getting it out there at building and so on. But I believe quite a lot if you if you are that kind of artist as and you are a you're aiming to be a true artist You need to make those decisions yourself and you shouldn't have too many influences put in there because I think making music by democracy doesn't work. It has to be done on your own terms.
¶ Impact of Success: Songwriter's Dilemma
How did your life change after the success of of Your Beautiful? I mean, did the the phone start ringing off the hook?
It changed yeah, it it obviously changed is because it it Like any industry that it's it's based on your success and it's and that helps to just it's it's like you you're given a sort of badge to wear which which is you're accepted into. a sort of certain club because you've okay, it's an affirmation of what you've you've been able to do.
The irony is I think every songwriter or artist or whatever will turn around and say that the songs that they've become best known for or are not their favourite songs, not the songs they think they are their best written ones, that are
You know, they they write hundred, two hundred a year and only one in every f four years ever does anything or So it's quite a strange it's a sort of mixture of things because you on one side it's great to be given the affirmation that you are oh, you know, you are A good songwriter, or you have done well, or something. On the other side of it is it's conflicting because you also think, well, every time you write a song, well,
Why isn't that as successful? Why isn't that as good? So it's a sort of strange thing, but it has certainly I mean, it opened doors to me, it was great, I'm being able to work with people I wouldn't have necessarily been able to get into the room with because of it. you know, obviously is is a you know, I can't I can't complain about that.
¶ Collaboration Dynamics: Inside vs. Outside
I was interested in what you said a minute ago about songs being written democratically, because some of the songs that you've been credited on have featured multiple songwriters. Rydyn ni'n cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod yn cael eu bod
Yeah, you uh I mean, there's always m moments where Th the the old sort of adage of where there's a hit there's a rip. You know, there are times when you have to make compromises, you have to make decisions uh that you wouldn't necessarily want want to.
Y you you know, that that's y you have to make those choices. So, you know, I have had a few of those, but there's also been times where, you know, I do I don't believe in making music by democracy as in having other other influences outside of the songwriting process. telling me what to write or how to write or what to do and so on. Who if I'm in a room though with four other people and we're writing it.
then and everyone's bringing something to the table, then that's absolutely fine. That's that's okay. But it's just the it's more about the um the outside influences. When a manager starts saying, Oh no, I think that that bridge isn't right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, I th I think your uh business plan isn't right. That to me is I don't think that's right.
Can you talk a little bit about your typical process then when you collaborate with an artist? If we were in that room, what what's that process like?
It it really varies very much from artist to artist. So there are There are times when if it's an artist that is already established and has been out touring and playing and and writing loads and loads with lots of other people, sometimes they come in and they're completely wiped out. void of any sort of um you know, their d their creative juices are not flowing, they're kind of a little numb. Then that's the time where as a co writer, somebody
you know, I have to try and be able to instigate something. So I'll hopefully have had a little idea in my head or or put something down already. Go, okay, well how about this? Or uh you know, and and and git put some options out there. Sometimes it's a case of an artist will come in and it will be I've really wanted to write a song about this. Uh this subject. You know, and we sit and we chat. Most of it in the songwriting for me is
is you know, i w I'm I'm la I'm a lazy git. We just sit here and sit have cups of coffee and tea and and talk. But it's the talking process that gets us to where we're gonna go with the song. And so That becomes a you know, we start sometimes in that way. There's also you know, bits where an artist will come and go, I've got this chorus idea, but I can't ever get
Averse, or I can't get a I don't know how to get out of the course, or I don't know whether this is right or not. So, you know, then we'll work on it in that way. It all depends. But I think the the a good co writer to an artist is one that is is flexible, that knows when to shut up and let the the artist breed and let the creative thing from the artist go and then when also be able to step in when it hits a low and
And hopefully g be able to r reignite it, bit bring some ideas in there. You y I think you need to have both both sides.
¶ Working with Adele and Duffy
Could you talk about the writing of Cold Shoulder with Adele? H what kind of collaborator was she?
Well that was an a an interesting one because She I think fairly reluctantly came into the studio um'cause she wrote a lot herself. Yeah, she's a pretty good well not pretty good, she's an amazing songwriter in uh on in her own uh by herself. But uh we spent a day and a half really struggling to get somewhere and and we didn't we didn't bond particularly well at the beginning. We were sort of it was a little it was a little tricky.
On the sort of second day after lunch, we went and had a bit of lunch and and what we had done by that time is we chatted a lot. We sort of I think we just learn a bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little trust within each other. It's quite it's really tough when you're in these situations when you're shoved into a room with somebody you don't really know and
You know, sometimes that thing can be worth a lot of money. Sometimes it's worth nothing, but th there's a lot of issues around it and there's a lot of people waiting to hear a result from it. And you're shoved in a room and you're and you're expected to like then unload your heart just stripped naked and be that's really that's not easy to to do. But she finally we we sort of came back in and and we were working on one idea and and she was like
Excuse me.
But I've got this other little thing. And then she started to go into the chorus of Cold Shoulder, like as in the melody line of it. And I was just sitting at the whoop the piano well, a little whirly thing that I haven't And we uh it was like two and a half hours, three hours, knocked it out. She had lyrics flying out of her. We didn't do anything of it, didn't do any production. It literally was just a little whirlitzer and her voice.
start to finish in I I think it was like three three hours. But I didn't think it was gonna go on the record. In fact I didn't until my engineer said to me, Oh, that song's on the record I didn't know it was on there. I was like, has it?
So how would um someone like Duffy compare you've also worked with her, so how does she compare with Adele in that regard?
Duffium is immediately very lively, bubbly and you know, quite affable in that Adele's a different completely different character. Um with Duffy i the the song that we wrote again was quite painless as it were in terms of it. It was quite we'd written a couple of little things and they weren't really working. It's quite quick then to move on to something else.
And she was you know, she could write quite fast and we reacted quite well together. It was sort of um Yeah, there were similarities between them, but also quite a lot of differences in terms of who they are as as artists.
This is Savour for your prayers you're talking about.
Yeah.
¶ Creative Environments and Idea Generation
So um we can see you're based in a studio at the moment now. Yeah. Um this is your London studio.
Yeah.
Do you do a lot of your writing in that environment or do you write elsewhere?
Um I do most of it I'd say here. I sort of work In Los Angeles a bit I do I write at home a little bit. I have a two year old uh daughter, so the writing at home becomes a little less easy, especially'cause it tends to have to be Papa, Papa, play grand old Duke of York.
I know that one.
Which I by the way I'm becoming quite good at. But uh but I too I like to write a little bit at home. I also do I like to um run to to keep fit and stuff but also I just like the the time that you get to um be on your own. It's quite tricky in today's sort of life where everything is, you know, we have phones, computers and and everywhere there's stimulation, technological stimulation that's going on and stuff like that.
It's quite hard to get those moments to be by yourself and s try and work through ideas or stuff in your head. Um and I'm no good at meditating because I can't sit still. So for me I find I go for a run and I try and come up you know, sometimes little ideas. come up then. I then also scooter into work and that's another good one because when I'm on the in when I'm in the car I have the radio on or I'll, you know, put the earphone in and be on the phone.
when I'm in this on the scooter you can't do that. So you're just sort of you know piddling along through the streets. But that gives you that little bit of time to you know and so with I remember with uh with Jason Moraes I had this this idea of uh of as I was going go coming into the studio And it was like that pretty much formed everything into my head. I came in and it was on a Sunday, and he just literally arrived.
from uh Los Angeles on the plane and we s we sat and I said, Okay, this is it. I c I don't know what the chords are exactly because it's still in my head, but I think it's something like this and this is how it goes and he was like, Okay, man, do you know what I've got this thing I've just been thinking about when I went on the airplane and it went up in the air and it was called Up Up Up and I th and then boom we did wrote a song in again three hours called Up, which was great and
so i think it's
Y for me it's that balance of like you need different environments to get ideas, but then here is predominantly where I sort of nuts and bolts of stuff get done.
¶ Writing Tools and Classical Influence
And what what are your principal writing tools? Do you use technology or is it more just a simple sitting at a piano or with a guitar?
I am so bad with technology that it took me about twenty minutes to get the Skype thing to work. I work with uh uh logic. And we have uh another program called Soundscape here at Kensletown. So I do work with that and I have I work as in in in the sort of producer world of things, but I tend to with songwriting I I work more in an acoustic way, so acoustic guitar or or piano or Fender Rhodes, Worlds, or whatever it is the ch I feel that if you can get the song great in that that way.
moving it across into then production land and and uh is so much easier. Um I find doing too much Okay, track and then let's write something on the track. Um I don't find I I it doesn't really work that great for me.
And do you still find yourself drawing upon your classical background when you write, you you know, and how your voice chords and things like that?
Definitely from the classical side, definitely from the jazz side in particular. Like I play probably sometimes not in a good way, um, but I play quite a lot of jazz voicings. Um And it's interesting that thing though as well of th of sometimes though when you're a songwriter of of learning to be to to keep things simple. That I'm not a very good I'm an awful guitar player, in fact. Really sort of basic, basic things. But sometimes I kick myself off the piano or the keyboard.
and go to a guitar because I'm overcomplicating, I'm overcompensating sometimes for the lack of maybe what I've got in a melody or as I've got as a look that so I'll go into a the guitar and like Try and do this. But it then that that actually is then what turns out, uh you know what? That really is bad. Start again. Or oh okay, if I you know, change this. I think that's quite important. And then I did recently, just in terms of the classical thing, I did a
um film score. There's a uh author called Chap Planwick who did that movie Fight Club. Um so done a film score for a a new film called Lullaby and I um I did it with uh guy called James Walsh who was in Star Sailor.
We basically wrote fourteen songs, which are kinda chapter headings for this And quite a lot of that I took ideas from classical pieces just as the starting uh way of writing something because it's that thing within film music of we're trying to get something that would work as a score but then would also work as a song.
And the the sort of the way that this particular story is is very sort of dark and melancholic. I found that actually using Certain elements from I remember like my this is my childhood in terms of classical stuff, so very simple kind of early Kabaleski work or early bits of Chopin prelude and stuff, but just little themes from it that would would work and I'd be able to do that and then, you know, James would sort of
take on a bit of that melody and sing it and then maybe we transfer it to his acoustic guitar and suddenly we'd be like, Oh, that's worked that's really kinda come come together. So I've been it's I've really enjoyed actually that you know, that process sort of taking a little s sort of step back.
And you think perhaps James has different attributes as a collaborator because he comes from a band situation?
Definitely. I think it's why we kind of work well on this particular project and we work and we do work well together is because He comes from that band. That's his that's his background. His he hi everything to him is about ear, what he hears and and how um and he is one of those rare rare people that um is able to w the when it i emotively he can he really can dig down into his his uh depths of his soul really quite quickly and come up with some amazing
Amazing stuff. So I think that that kind of the balance that we we had was worked quite well. And does work. I mean, we just finished doing his his solo record. Which has been a you know, again, another interesting process because it's going out of for him going out of being in a band and then having to make a step across. And you know, we decided from the outset that we weren't gonna try and make this another sort of Star Sailor Mark II. So we've got to not have
you know, loads of band sounding instruments and loads of that sort of thing. So it's like okay, you know what? No drum. We we as in the the two other guys that we did it with, we one of us will have to play literally we were only allowed one kick, one snare, and one hi hat.
And just but that's our gonna be our little thing. Then we're not gonna be afraid of of you know, none of us can play the bass that well. But it was like okay, bits of keyboard bass and bits of live bass, but really trying to make a thing of like this This is now going from a band into
the solo uh the solo artist, but always maintaining the same feel that James always has because he has an iconic voice, but also within the songwriting side of it. You know, how you dress up a song, you know, is up to producers, is up to that way that that goes. Key is if you you know you've still got to have your song right.
¶ Developing New Talent and Industry Philosophy
Developing new talent seems to be an important part of your life. Can you speak a little bit about that? Are there any particular artists you're working with at the moment who you think are particularly promising, uh especially in the songwriting vein?
Yeah, I came to a a sort of I've always been interested in developing artists, mainly because every bit of sort of successful thing that I've had has come at a time before Uh and the artist has actually already been particularly successful themselves. So it's come in the early, early stages of their career. And I found that that's always I've I've always enjoyed it at that time. I l I enjoy it less when it's become part of the big machine and
Y there like I say, music becomes a bit done by democracy. So I um I've always looked at developing acts, but it it recently I've I've really gone taken a sort of stand where I'm not doing work for the sort of like I was before m the label acts that are coming in. I'm sort of turning down a lot of that and concentrating on finding artists and acts that I really believe in, that I feel that I can add something to, that I can give them that chance to go from
out of their bedroom, into the marketplace, but all bit in a in the early, early stages, but to get the foundations of their career absolutely solid and right. And that means getting their songwriting home to the best It can be getting their identity sorted out ho howned so that they write who are you? And they can tell you exactly like they can sing, you know, two, three bars or something and you're like, Okay, that's so and so.
um getting the production right, getting them out playing live, getting the the uh social media side of things working as well. But predominantly for me it's about that those early formative stages so that they then have that that solid foundation to go on and have a long lasting career.
¶ Dream Collaborations and Inspirations
That's great. And um in terms of more established people, uh is there anyone you'd like to collaborate with that you haven't yet? A holy grail perhaps?
Oh, you know what the the other day I was was at home and uh Prince came on and they had hot they had the Purple Rain and then they had the the sort of documentary before and it in some ways it sort of slightly depressed me because God, this it is incredible. Like And then in other ways it was a real sort of sense of like wow that's
That's a ma you know, really inspiring as well. I find that quite a lot. I get there's um a guy who used to have a studio here has now just moved down the road called Paul Atworth, who's a super successful producer and he he did the sort of adell rolling the deep, Florence and the Machine, all this sort of thing. And I used to find the same thing with him, I'd stick my head out of a
my window here and I'd hear these ridiculously cool like beats and nice sounds going on. And I'd come back into my room like, Oh dear shit I don't know where to go home now. Or kick myself in the house and do more. I think that's that thing. So I've been quite lucky with the the ones that I've been able to work with already'cause they're ones that I've really loved. I would love to just get in with prints. I only just to you know, see what goes on in the head and the the mind. Uh
You know, there's other people that I absolutely adore. Neil Young would be another one in terms of songwriting. I got very lucky one day I got to sit next to Joni Mitchell uh at dinner. Which w actually wasn't the best thing because she was in a stinking mood and it kind of like put put me off.
Ha ha ha.
That sort of horrible puppy dog, like couldn't control myself and nearly wetting myself and wagging the tail at the table and she was also like, Oh God, go away. And then current artists oh I don't know, that's a tricky one, isn't it? Um, you know, I'd I I like this. There's this um band called the Civil Wars. I would like to do something with them. I really love that record they've done. So I they there's somebody that I would I'd like to, you know, get in with.
¶ Hosts' Reflections on Songwriting Process
Fantastic. Well I think that's about everything from us.
Cool. Well listen, guys, thanks for that.
Thanks so much.
Seeke. Bye bye. So there you have it, that was Sasha Scarbech and what a lovely engaging fellow he was, Sai.
He was such a nice bloke, really enjoyed listening to him talk about how he'd written those songs and uh other aspects of his process as well, like getting into a room to collaborate with someone and then, you know, realising that you are both essentially strangers. and that you've got to lay your hearts on your sleeve and sort of try and create some sort of emotional statement together. And that's a really hard aspect of the process.
And I found that his comments on that were really insightful and uh really interesting and and the way that he addresses that situation, you know, which is basically have a few cups of tea and have a conversation and soon enough you'll find some common ground to start from.
That's certainly something we can relate to as songwriters as well. Um we s we spend a lot of time sitting round chewing the fat when we're supposed to be writing, but then when you do eventually come up with something you you find a lot of the things that you've talked about have found their way into the lyrics. So uh it's definitely a useful thing.
Well I've I've listened to podcasts about screenwriting where famous screenwriters like the Cohen brothers for example talk about how sleeping is a large part of their writing process. They actually nap a lot during the day as a way of letting their minds just turn over ideas. And I think, you know, not songwriting sometimes is as important as writing.
Yeah, you find when you're away from a keyboard or a guitar and you know, any musical instrument. your mind moves a lot more freely and you can just come up with I a lot of more ideas sort of unfettered by having a guitar in your hands and trying to feel around for chords and and melodies. If you just let your mind wander, you find that that's how you you come up with the best ideas a lot of the
the time. And that ties into what Sasha was saying about getting that time away, like where he's on his scooter for example. And he can just have that little bit of mental peace where he he allows his mind to just wander and take over. And uh you know, it's hard to find that in this day and age.
as he said, when you're surrounded by technology all the time or you're in a busy studio or you've got the pressure of, you know, the music industry is wanting to see the results of some collaboration that he's involved with.
Rydyn ni'n gwneud hyn, mae'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud. Mae'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud Duffy a Adele a Blunty, fel yw'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny. Rydyn ni'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny'n gwneud hynny.
It does, yeah, I'm intrigued to hear how his voice will translate to to that sort of cinematic classical context that Sasha was describing, um, because we're most familiar with James Walsh of course a singer a star sailor, so yeah, it'd be interesting to see how he translates to that to that kind of thing.
I'm sure he won't have any trouble harnessing that raw remotion and putting it into some sort of memorable context.
¶ Episode Wrap-up and Promotions
Okay, so thanks to Sasha for taking part. It's been a real honour and uh thanks to anyone else who helped make that happen. We'll be back in the near future with another episode for you.
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