Episode 277 - Boy George

Hello there and thanks for joining us for another edition of Soda Jacker on Songwriting. This is Brian, here with Simon, and gracing episode 277 is a Grammy and Ivanovello winning singer and songwriter who first made his mark on pop culture over four decades ago as the flamboyant gender-bending lead singer of Culture Club.

During a long, colourful and astoundingly prolific career, he's worked in a dizzying array of creative mediums and performed or recorded with the likes of Luther Vandros, Paul Weller, Dolly Parton, Smoky Robinson, Faithless. Mark Ronson, Niall Rogers, and Anthony and the Johnsons.

As this episode reaches you in early December 2024, Culture Club are thrilling audiences nationwide on a UK tour, performing their first two studio albums in their entirety for the first time. and we recently had the tremendous pleasure of sitting down with the inimitable front man in London to hear all about his writing process. We're thrilled to welcome the fabulous boy George to the show.

Our guest was born George O'Dowd in nineteen sixty one and grew up in Eltham, South East London, one of five children from a working class Irish Catholic family. He had a strong age to perform from a very early age, and as a child would sing music hall standards for the residents at the local old people's home.

As well as being a bowie acolyte and a huge fan of glam rock pioneers Mark Bolin and Alice Cooper, he also enjoyed jazz and classical music, crooners like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, and classic singer-songwriters like Bob Dylan and Johnny Mitchell. A rebellious pupil, to say the least, George was kicked out of school at fifteen and spent some of his late teens living up in the West Midlands, before returning to London where he became a regular at Covent Garden's infamous Blitz nightclub.

He was very briefly a member of Punk's Vengali Malcolm McLaren's protege's Bow Wow Wow, adopting the stage name Lieutenant Lush, before being invited to form Culture Club in nineteen eighty one by bassist Mikey Craig, they wisely abandoned their original moniker, Sex Gang Children. Hm. With drummer John Moss and guitarist Roy Hay also on board, within a year they'd signed with Virgin Records.

Do you really want to hurt me? The third single from their 1982 debut album, Kissing to Be Clever, topped the charts in sixteen countries, by which time our guest's androgynous image and unmistakable vocals had already made him a household name. 1983's Colour by Numbers proved an even bigger smash, with the indelible Karma Chameleon hitting number one on both sides of the Atlantic, and ultimately ending the band the 1984 Grammy for Best New Artist.

Culture Club's imperial phase came to a close with nineteen eighty six's from luxury to heartache, but the years since have seen sporadic reunions, both live and in the studio. Nineteen ninety nine's comeback album Don't Mind If I Do spawned the top five single I Just Wanna Be Loved, not to mention one of their most underrated songs in the excellent Cold Shoulder.

George's deep solo catalogue includes albums like 1987's Sold, 1995's Cheapness and Beauty, and 2013's This Is What I Do. With Jesus Loves You, he scored a nineteen ninety one hit with the song Bow Down, Mr, written under the pseudonym Angela Dust, and enjoyed more solo chart success the following year with his typically soulful interpretation of the classic sixties song The Crying Game.

In the early two thousands, our guest co-created, starred in and co-wrote the lyrics and music for the Tony nominated stage musical Taboo, which premiered in London's West End in two thousand and two, later opening on Broadway. He returned to Broadway earlier this year, treading the boards as Harold Zidler in Moulin Rouge.

Since the early nineties, George has enjoyed a parallel career as a massively in-demand international DJ. He's also published three memoirs, and as if all that isn't enough to make your head spin, he's a talented painter to boot, and a selection of his highly idiosyncratic portraits are currently on display at Castle Fine Art Galleries in a town near you.

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Before we move on, our thanks to Shoshana and Tanisha for their help setting up this conversation.

Okay, that's enough from us. We hope you enjoy our encounter with the one, the only boy George.

Watch your sound signs first of all.

I'm a Scorpio.

Gemini. Oh, same as me. Scorpio. I like Scorpios, they're a lot of fun. Sometimes lazy though.

Oh no him.

It depends on your moon.'Cause I know some proper lazy Scorpios were literally like Get off your ass and do something or something trying to take credit. And then other ones that are super dynamic, so I'm not gonna judge you.

Sam's the most industrious person I know.

Probably good in bed as well, so I think we're good in bed.

How about Truman Let's We're close friends, but not that. Well, George,

Lovely to have you on the podcast.

Thank you.

I guess like a lot of people our age, we're mid forties now, so our earliest memories of pop music are just essentially you on top of the pops. And I guess you must hear that a lot.

I do. You know, it's funny but I make so much music. I've released fifty four tracks in the last year alone. I could probably drop about twenty albums tomorrow with no problem. Since the pandemic I've been writing and writing like a crazy person. I mean, I've got two collaborations out right now. I've got the one with Pete Murphy today, I've got one with Dark Globe, Mind Joint Existence.

Oh well.

And we sent it to her, she did her thing with it and it's great. You know, I did it on tour just now and I was thinking, Will I get away with it?'Cause people can be very precious about you changing something. So I thought I'm gonna try it. And as no intro, it just goes straight into the chorus. All the small talks have been taken out of it. And the audience were really warm to it. Ah, they loved it. Plus I have a sort of policy now when I go on stage.

So whereas a lot of people sit and try and find the melody always start with the words find something to say always decide on what you want to write about Yeah, so I love writers like Morrissey, you know, even though, you know, some people think he's a bad guy, but the way he looks at love.

Yeah. It reminds me of um we had Alan Tucson on the podcast quite a few years ago now and he mentioned about being vigilant, you know. He said if you stop at a red light while you're there, look around, you might see a couple kiss on the corner. There you go, they kissed on the corner, that could be a song, you know.

Absolutely. I mean, a lot of it is what comes out of people's mouths. People say things and you go, That's a fucking hook. That's a country song, you know. If he walks away and he doesn't look back, I'm like, what the fuck? That's like Dolly Parton. Come on, write it down. What I try to do, a lot of producers, they'll send you a track and they'll give it a name. Just something they've used to name the file. So I'll try and write it to what they've called it.

No, it's interesting what you say about his sort of vocal identity as well'cause you have such a strong

It's got that thing and it's like it hits something in you and it's

And it enables you to sort of you've spanned so many styles in what you've done.

Punk rock gave permission. I mean there's always been interesting voices, Nico, Leonard Cohen, there's Dylan even so you know, they're kinda more interesting voice, but there's always been those like singers that are like storytellers. I'm not a big fan of like perfect singing. You'd be surprised at the stuff, you know. I mean I still love bands that I loved in the seventies, you know, like Pink Military and Big in Japan from Liverpool and all that stuff. I would say I'm a music obsessive.

To me it's like an exercise now when I'm writing. I think what needs to be said? You know, last night I was doing a painting'cause obviously the election, I was doing this painting, 47 Reasons to Cry. And I thought well that's a great lyric. You know, it could be like a A Johnny Cash thing, it could be something I don't know, there's so many things you can do.

So is there a lot of crossover then between your painting art and your musical?

Completely, completely. The paintings often like make me think of a lyric. I invest a lot in my creativity. We called our studio the pyramid because it's so much music that we've done. I've done collaborations with people without the permission. I got one with Stormsey. He's never heard it. I got one with Plan B, because they wrote with my friend Benny years ago.

So it's like Prince's Vault, basically.

Well he was a Gemini. He was a prolific writer. I mean he's the same as me, like just And also Paul Weller, he's a Gemini, doesn't stop writing. He doesn't stop. I'm like, see? When people tell me I'll do too much, I'm like, look at Paul Weller. Unbelievable. It's Gemini. We have to do. We can't observe.

So what are the specifics of the process? You've got all these ideas, you've got a really close connection to lyrics and to titles and things like that. Where do you go from there? Do you take the material and write pages of things that you then translate into a melody? Are you picking up a guitar? Are you sitting at a piano?

There's this weird thing that happens. I don't know if anyone has this experience, but there'll be times when I've written something down at home that is absolutely abstract. Dark Globe sent me a thing called flat earthers and I thought, hmm, what's that about? Then I started to write it about the whole trans in female spaces thing. And then, you know, people that are so certain about God and religion, flat earthers, you know, like people who just they've got a narrative and they stick to it.

And how how he play with sort of melody as well, like a song like Stay, which is very rhythmic and drive, and he would sing this kind of legato style over the top, very long notes, you know, uh very

Like if I do like a disco track, I always think what would Bowie do on a disco track? Yeah. You know, where would he go? Like when he went with Noel Rogers. I feel like well, because he had that word thing. So he had that method of cutting up words. There's that documentary, Cracked Actor, where he talks about cutting up words when he does Moon Age Daydream.

So will you walk away from a song that way as well and come back to

Particularly the one Flat Earthers, because I wrote the lyrics first and then I was trying to force them onto the track and it doesn't always work. And then sometimes you get frustrated with the person recalling, help me here, you know, what's the chord? But eventually you have to sometimes walk away and come back and then you play it again, you've got an idea, and then you think, oh, I'll add this to it.

And you know it's interesting because I work with uh a guy called Benny D. Yeah he just gets me. It's really unusual. I never thought I'd find anyone because I could write songs of anybody. One of my favourite writing partners is a guy called Luke Begley who is In the spam we are Brando, who are a bit of a ghost band.

Yeah, there's so many facts.

So, you know, because if you accept that everything's already been written to an extent, if it's a good song, I'll get excited. Whoever writes it, if it's some obscure person I've never heard of, but there are a lot of people out there who think they can write. And they can sing and they can't write. And there's so many people I meet, I just think, oh God, let someone else write the song or learn to write better.

I was gonna ask but when you are collaborating with Benny D or whoever it might be, do you still consider the lyrics and melody very much your domain?'Cause I was watching um there was a BBC four documentary about ten years ago, the way you were recording with Culture Club and you seem very protective

I'm better than I used to be. I'm much better. I worked with Andy uh Bell a couple of years ago. We did a track called That Night in Brazil. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Rydyn ni'n amlwg. Surreal. He wrote this lyric about hanging from a chandelier at a mandolier's party, careful you don't fall and break your ankle. It was just insane, right?

It was to be reborn, was that one of the things that we're going to do?

And also keep me in mind we wrote keep me I think I wrote it with Jocelyn and with Lamont. But you know, there were so many people I worked with, um Arif Mardin, I have my head up my ass. I miss so many opportunities with certain people. Which is why I think now I have such a much more dedicated attitude towards what I do.

It's interesting what people come out with and sometimes they dismiss what they come out with. Someone might say something really funny or simple and you go, that's the hook. The hook is like a fan saying to me a couple of weeks ago, she said I said something and I went, Who said that? You said that. I thought that could go in a funk song. You said that, you said it's like that's all anyone's doing.

Have there been experiences where you have encountered a different kind of writing though, like thinking about something like Taboo for example, where the songs have to have a particular type of function, maybe that's something you hadn't done before.

Yeah, but I'm rewriting to Boo right now. I'm actually writing the script myself, which is a bit ballsy, but I've been trying it out on people because I felt like the songs were really cute, but there's other songs now that need to be sung and said. 'Cause there's some of the same arguments going on. You know, I wrote this thing called Noise about four years ago, which is really about the whole trans thing.

That's where elevates so much of your stuff. You know, it's great pop music but it's got this soulful delivery to it that transcends the the pop idiom almost because you you're singing in such a soulful way about like real things, personal things.

Yes, taking the sort of records I grew up with that I loved, like Tina Turner and Smokey Robinson, Gladys and the Pips, obviously Bowie. you know, but I also knew that Bo was obsessed with Scott Walker. I mean, the Pete Murphy track that we've put out today is so Scott Walker. I mean, it wasn't accidental. You know, I wrote it with that sort of sweeping stringsy

I've actually started also recently not wanting things to be too like perfect.

There is an element I guess in song, right? Precious. It made me laugh in your um in your book when you said about writing with Mark Ronson and that uh you didn't end up coming up with anything'cause it nothing was cool enough for him and you said I just write the song and regret it later.

I think it's great. I feel like I mean listen, I will write with Mark again because we haven't done what we can do. But I know if I had got in a room with Mark now, it would be like a different story. Cause I was still in that kind of weird place when I was writing with Mark. I didn't realise that I had it already and I didn't have to look for it.

Right.

I definitely think it's down to wider thinking. I follow this thing called The Free Principles, which is a sort of philosophy. But when you first start practicing the three principles, you always get told, You already know this. All I'm doing is telling you what you already know. And when you start to look back at your life

Do you think from having being such an avid listener at such a young age and just having such a a wide range of tastes, do you think you like absorbed song structures?

You imitate when you're a kid, don't you? You listen to people like I was listening to old jazz music and records my dad brought home. And really my older brother was the only one that was really into music. Oh actually, Richard and Kevin was into funk.

I just think that's what writing's about. Whether Bowie was actually you know, was he living that, was he making it up, was he just picking up on what was going on in society? 'Cause I remember when like Boys Keep Swinging came out and I was like, Done it again you know, we thought we were the Blitz kids. We're like and then here he comes again, he's in drag and the whole thing is

Do you remember the point where all that listening sort of developed into actually writing or or was it not till Culture Club that you started

I feel like when I joined Culture Club there was a sort of you know, I was insecure because I didn't really know about mus I didn't know what chords were, I didn't know how to structure a song. So a lot of the early songs are really overwritten, sixty-five verses, you know, blah blah blah. And one of the things that John did,'cause John was really into those sixties movies and pop songs and, you know, Adam Faith and he liked that whole vibe of a three minute pop song.

But I just think it's a muscle, writing is a muscle and it the more you do it, the better you get. Bit like running, although I wish I could run. But I find like anything I can do with my hands and my mind keeps me busy. I love writing. Like I'll probably end up in a Guinness Book of Records as the most prolific writer ever. I think I will.

Yeah, it's really interesting. It is, yeah. And we know, we talk to so many songwriters and some of them have quite a defined process. They'll say, Right, Oh, I start this way or I write like this and

It's easy.

It's quite a but it's quite a contained thing and they can articulate exactly how it happens, but it's almost like you're kind of fluent in song, like you just

people write the same song over and over and we're all guilty of sort of doing things like, Oh, I always do that. I often hear a song and think that's exactly like the last one they put out, which may be smart branding. But every time I bought a buried record, I was like, what has he done? What's this? You know, I mean, when I bought Low, I was like, it's five instrumental tracks. I felt like I've been robbed, you know? And then just went, Oh my god, this is so brilliant.

I remember hearing something about Bowie actually when he did the movie, um I don't know if you've ever seen the film Into the Night, where he does a cameo as like a hitman in it, and John Landers said uh he needed to look seedy, he needed to look kind of unattractive, basically.

Yeah, I feel like Bowie definitely to look at was yeah, it was very interesting looking, wasn't it? It was kind of so instantly recognizable. and look good in everything. I feel like, yeah, for me, like Boeing Mark Boland. I feel like Mark Boland is deeply overlooked as a writer. Yeah. When I wanna be surreal, I always go and listen to like Spaceball ricochet and you know, I had a car, it was old, it was kind, I gave it my mind and it disappeared.

When you're right with you sort of almost'cause some writers do that thing where they pretend to be that.

One thousand percent. I think Shareza was a good one. If you could imagine Cher singing it, he's no good for you but then you go it's a fucking hit. And I feel like sometimes I like getting other people to sing my stuff. And then there are certain things go, no one's having this song. There'll be times when I've written things and thought, No fucking way am I giving that to anybody. It's my song.

What did you feel like about um'cause you did the song for The Beach Boys, didn't you? Passing five

Oh god, I wish I could do it now.

Yeah.

Wish I could write with the Beach Boys now. I mean, fuck man. You know, I would have done something mind blowing. You know, they're really good pop writers and I'm a total pop fan. I like everything. There's nothing I don't like. Even some soft rock, I like some so I can't even say even like a bit of Bon Jobu. Yeah. You know, I might change the lyrics to you give Quiz a bad name, but

Well, I don't think we've ever met anyone so kind of wrapped up in songs and so sort of engaged with creativity. It's uh it's great.

Lucky to have I've had some amazing friends in my life who I had a friend who died called Paul Starr, who was a makeup artist in LA. Paul is obsessed with music. It makes me look like an amateur. I remember him playing me Amy Winehouse for the first time. In America and saying, listen to this album. No, no, no, you're gonna love it. No, no, no, no, listen to this album, Frank, and then going, Oh my god, obsessed.

Well on that note, George. I think uh we've got to wrap up but it was such fun.

I'm away! Don't bloody touch me! I'm short! I'm flunging! I'm fucking ugly! Such a good song.

This has been brilliant. Thanks so much.

Great too.

I have to give you a bus and I quickly wait when it was.

That was Boy George talking to us about his life in music and art.

What a buzz that was. He was just a ball of energy, wasn't he?

To say the least, yeah. I mean one of the things you learn about doing interviews is sometimes you have to guide the person through the conversation. But it's safe to say George needed no such help.

Yeah, he's an amazing force and and when you sit down with him you can easily see why he's achieved the things he has.

Yeah, definitely. He's very prolific too, isn't he? Still writing songs at such a race.

Constantly, it seems, yeah. And that's not mentioned in his other forms of expression, uh particularly the painting.

Yeah, I mean he kind of reminded me of our former guest, Willie Russell, the great playwright. Yeah. Not because of his makeup or his clothes or anything like that.

I was tasting that.

Yeah. But because Willie also paints and makes music and has an art studio attached to his office, doesn't he?

Oh yeah, yeah, of course. And yeah, he actually told us, didn't he? He feels the day is wasted if he hasn't done something creative. And you very much get that vibe from George.

Yeah, I can't see him wasting a second.

And you know, he's keeping up the quality with his recent stuff, you know, like that Kinky Roland collab, You're not the one. I really love that track.

Yeah, I love the mood on that and those underpinning cords they're really nice.

Yeah, there's just so much to like throughout his catalogue though, isn't there?

Yeah, well you're a fan of Cold Shoulder, aren't you?

Yeah, on a musical and and lyrical level. I mean it's it's just such a solid song in every department and um I particularly love the scene setting of the opening lines, er watching the stars on Primrose Hill, the moon is high and the city is still. I came here to escape the chill of your cold shoulder.

very seductive opening

that isn't it? Yeah, it just draws you into the song, which is exactly what you want. Yeah.

Yeah. And it was a huge pleasure going back to the old culture club catalogue too, wasn't it?

Yeah, I mean, because he's such a huge personality, I think people forget that there's an undeniable talent there for starters and also so many great pop songs.

Well yeah, I mean when you go to our playlist and you've got Do you really wanna hurt me and I'll Tumble For You and Clock of the Heart and Karma Chameleon and It's a Miracle and Change the Boys and Mind and Miss Me Blind, it's like you just spoil for choice, aren't you?

Yeah, and as I think I said in the interview, you know, with those songs and all his solo stuff, all his different musical projects, he pulls together the disparate genres those songs occupy with those very direct and soulful and distinctive vocals.

Yeah, such a unifying thing his voice, isn't it?

Absolutely and you know, the new tour is gonna be such a treat for people who wanna hear those early culture club records.

Yeah, we recommend going along if you can still get tickets, that is.

Exactly. Well that's it from us. Cheers to Shoshana and Tanisha for all of their help with this, and lastly, thanks to Boy George himself for a wonderful experience.