Episode 25 - Neil Sedaka

Oh Carol, CalendarGirl, Breaking Up Is Hard To Do, Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen, Stupid Cupid, Where the Boys Are, Is This The Way to Amarillo? Solitaire Laughter in the Rain. Love Will Keep Us Together.

The history of popular music would be quite different without the contributions of our guest for this episode of Soda Jerker on Songwriting, Mr. Neil Sadaka. For over fifty years, Neil Sadaka has written, produced and performed hundreds of songs, many of which are prominent entries in the rock and roll canon. I'm sure many of our listeners recognise more than a few of the songs that Brian just listed.

I should hope so. This is definitely another major coup for us as fans of that whole brill building era and having been lucky enough to speak with Mike Stoller and Barry Mann and Cynthia Weill already on the podcast. Our older music reunion continues right here with Neil Sadaka and I can barely believe it. In fact I don't think I will until I hear that velvety voice answer the phone.

Well here's a bit more info about our guest. Neil Sadaka was born on march thirteenth, nineteen thirty nine. He grew up in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, a stone throw from the Coney Island Amusement there in New York. By the time he was eight years old he'd already begun training at classical piano, as part of the children's division of the Juilliard School of Music, and at sixteen he was voted one of the best emerging pianists from New York's high school system and

And although he remains an accomplished classical pianist to this day, it was rock and roll that was Neil's true calling. He formed a doock group called The Tokens and they had a couple of regional hits, including a number one with a cover of The Lion Sleeps Tonight.

I think between nineteen fifty nine and nineteen sixty three they sold something like forty million records.

That's insane. And Sadaka went on to become a major team pop star too, didn't he?

Yeah, um Sadaka became a star after Connie Francis recorded Stupid Cupid. She also sang Where the Boys Are, the theme song that Neil and Howard wrote for the nineteen sixty film of the same name, and that became her biggest hit. As a result of hits like these, Sadaka was able to sign a contract with RCA as a writer and performer of his own material, and he soon recorded chart toppers like The Diary.

Rolf Harris sings Sadaka.

Yeah.

I love, I love my little cat. Sorry, that was the worst Rolf Harris impression you'll ever hear.

Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Um then there was Calendar Girl, Little Devil, Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen, Next Door to an Angel and Breaking Up Is Hard To Do, amongst other big hits.

And the mid-sixties were the first sign of any slowing in Sadaka's career. The British invasion, punctuated by the arrival of the Beatles in America in nineteen sixty four, made life harder for many artists who found that their sounds were no longer in vogue.

And in the early seventies Neil moved to the UK for a few years. He released his album Emergence in nineteen seventy two, which is a recent discovery for us, which we're loving at the moment. It was very much a first step in redefining himself, I think, as a solo artist.

yeah he'd always been more of a singles guy hadn't he

Yeah, and he got more into a sort of a singer songwritery mode and more of a progressive album mode at that time. And he even worked with the guys from Ten C C. Believe it or not. That's correct. Up at uh Strawberry Studios in Stockport in Manchester, not far from us here. And that's where he did albums like Solitaire and The Tralard Days Are Over.

I love that title. If ever an album signalled a new attitude to his music it's that one.

That's not me.

And his break back into America actually came via Elton John, who decided to sign Neil to his rocket label. Sadaka's back in nineteen seventy four contain material from his last couple of UK albums and he followed this with The Hungry Years in nineteen seventy five. Both became huge albums around the world.

Sadaka's back is just chock full of hits, isn't it?

Yeah, and he looks like a total pimp on the cover. Red Fedora.

Total badass. So having ceased writing with Harry Greenfield by this point, his comeback was further cemented by two songs he co wrote with Phil Cody, that was Bad Blood and Laughter in the Rain, both of which went to number one.

Bad Blood features Elton on backing vocals, I think. And the great David Foster on keys.

Mm, whatever happened to him.

Okay.

Um also in nineteen seventy-five, Breaking Up Is Hard To Do was re-released as a ballad and it reached the top spot on the charts, becoming the first song in history, I think, to be recorded in two different versions by the same artist and hit number one. During this time Sadaka also helped to launch the career of The Captain and Tanil when they recorded their version of his song Love Will Keep Us Together, which won a Grammy Award for Record of the Year.

And he's never been short of accolades for his work either, has he?

No, I'm not...

He's been honoured by the Songwriters Hall of Fame, he has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, he's received the Sami Khan Lifetime Achievement Award and also in two thousand and six received the Guinness Award for his song Is This the Way to Amarillo? as the best selling single of the twenty first century in the UK.

I think uh his mantelpiece bends in the middle.

Mm-hmm and the latter piece can be heard on his excellent new album, The Real Neal, which is available from october the first, twenty twelve, so should be out by the time you hear this. It's a very intimate piano vocal record with some terrific new songs.

Yeah, it's it's shocking really that he can just be so ageless and and still churn out such great stuff.

Still sings like a bird too.

He's also a relentless live performer and he's on tour across the UK in October supporting this new album. He'll be in our native Liverpool at the Philharmonic Hall on October the 24th and you can get all of the dates for the tour at neilsadaka.com

As always, we're at sodajeker.com. Go there or search iTunes for other episodes of the podcast. They're all available for free to you, our dear listeners. There's a Spotify playlist featuring many of Neil's greatest songs available on our site as well. Also we're on Twitter and Facebook, just add slash soda jerker to find us and give us a follow or a like there. Or just make some other virtual gesture of your love. Preferably keep it clean.

it is all appreciated but first we have an appointment to talk songwriting with the irrepressible neil sadaka

Good morning, this is Neil from New York.

Ha ha ha.

Hi Neil, how are you?

Fine, who am I talking to?

My name's Simon and I'm here with Brian.

Hi Neil.

Hi, two people, my goodness. And where are you calling from?

We're calling from Liverpool in the UK.

I've heard of it.

Yeah.

And this is uh going to be on songwriting? What is the uh spiel here?

It's a podcast that we do about songwriting and we interview the world's most successful songwriters. So we've had people like Mike Stoller on and Barryman and Cynthia Weil and and now yourself.

Thank you for including me.

Well thank you for doing it. We can't tell you what a thrill it is and what a privilege it is to get to talk to you.

Thank you. And I'm coming to Liverpool uh for the new uh tour in October.

That's right, yeah.

I don't have the dates in front of me.

I think it's a twenty four.

Yes, I uh I'm looking forward to the tour. It's ten concerts. The Albert Hall is on the seventeenth of October and that's the one with the uh symphony.

Right.

the London Symphony and they are debuting my uh symphonic piece called Joie de Vive and I am debuting my piano concerto called Manhattan Intermezzo. So I've gone back to my roots as a classical musician. I did start as a concert pianist at the Juilliard School in New York for twelve years. So it's full circle back to my roots.

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Oh, have you heard it?

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. We were blown away by it actually. We have to say you sound better than ever.

Well thank you so much. Yes, it's the first acoustic album and uh I'm very proud of the of the songs and so go right ahead and ask whatever you'd like.

Okay.

On the album, you've managed to craft these melodies that are very simple and singable yet still new and and memorable. After all of the writing that you've done, is it harder these days to come up with something that grabs you and and gives you those goosebumps?

It's much more difficult today. I've been doing it sixty years and you have to raise the level. Uh you have to go out of your comfortable sphere. You have to do something that uh is more challenging. something you were not repeating yourself. there is a big fear when you have that blank piece of paper in front of you and you've written a thousand songs over sixty years. So I think the thing I try to do is raise the bar, raise the level of Neil Sudaka.

Heart of Stone is one that really jumped out to us. It's got those terrific moody chords and some lovely imagery in the lyrics. Uh the abstract symphony paints a picture and frozen pennies in a stream and all that sort of stuff.

Well thank you.

I came first with that song.

I wrote the music and words together. You know, after all of the years with great lyricists like Harry Greenfield and Phil Cody and Carol Sager, I'm fascinated with uh metaphors and painting pictures I think that uh the early uh fifty eight to sixty three were wonderful songs. Howie Greenfield's lyrics were marvelous, but they didn't paint

Runaway Lover is another song we're really enjoying. We were wondering what inspired the I'm your jerk on Bended Knees line. You really sort of spit out the word jerk.

Yes, it's different for Neil Sadaka. It's edgy. Mm-hmm. Uh I wrote it with my friend and uh my houseman who is uh Louis Marquez and he uh inspired me to write something more edgy

because so many of mine are uh sweet and melodic and very uh goody goody and uh shall we say uh uh polite. So I made a special effort to do something with an edge to it. Right. And I like the feel of the song. I have never written that kind of feel, that kind of tempo.

And on Sweet Music you conjure up quite a lot of that nineteen fifties imagery, like the greased up hair and sodopop and stuff like that. Um one of the nostalgic things you say in that song is what happened to the melody, what happened to the harmony?

Uh, that is true. I was raised with music that uh you can understand the lyrics. My heroes were George Gershwin, Irving Berlin, Richard Rogers, Johnny Mercer, Frank Lesser. And I I I can understand the some of the new stuff, but it's more production and sound rather than song. And I think uh yes, whatever happened to the sweet music and the melodies that you can sing, being from the Brill Building we were taught to write singable, memorable songs and um I think that's the basis of my success.

The album also includes some reworkings of some of your classic hits like Breaking Up Is Hard To Do, Laughter in the Rain and Amarillo. How did you decide which of those older songs to include?

Well, I I went for those because they were amongst the biggest most successful uh trademarks of of Neil Sadaka. Uh I had so many to choose from, but where there are more albums coming in the future, I chose these three uh for the Real Neal. People are always interested in the pure form of the song and uh that's why I opened the album talking to the listener, telling them that this is the way I write at the piano, with no uh no gimmicks and uh

Yeah. And you say that the songs on the album represent the pure form of the song for you at the piano. Mm-hmm. But did you ever write with any other instruments? Are you a secret ukulele player or anything like that?

I would love to have done that, but I can't play anything but keyboard. I love the keyboard. Being a uh classical pianist, uh I wrote only at the piano. Many times I can write on a plane on a paper napkin. I would write a poem and then get it home and put the music to it. Uh in this particular uh case, I was at the piano at home. I live in New York and LA and it's um it's a scary thing because uh it's mixed emotions. You you want to uh do it so I have to force myself, discipline myself.

And um thinking back over some of those classic songs now, do you still remember the moment you actually sat at the piano and, for instance, hit upon something like the chorus of Laughter in the Rain?

Of course.

You do.

Oh yes. I started Laughter in the Rain with the And Phil Cody sat with me and I said, I wanna get to that chord in the key of F, it's a B flat minor chord. and I started writing it actually from the middle. The Ooh, I heal after in the rain. And then at the end I went to the strolling country rose with my baby, which is pentatonic. I call it the American Indian

Some of the songwriters we've spoken to have claimed that they have no idea sometimes what chords they're playing at all and they they work mainly on instinct. Mm-hmm. You've mentioned your classical background. Can we assume from that that you're kind of a theoretical musician? Are you concerned with, you know, your minor seven flat five chords and voice leading and arranging and all these sorts of things?

Well, it's a good question because when you start writing something, it kind of goes in its own direction. It almost dictates to you and you think you're going in one direction, but it takes you in another direction. And that's always very fresh and very good. I call it the the spiritual writing. Sometimes you're chosen

We read that after you had a hit with the diary you started studying the anatomy of hit songs, like the chore progressions and the structures, etc. Did you find any formulas in that research that you've used since?

Well, you know, sometimes you hear a song or a voice. A voice inspires me to write. Uh Dinah Washington, Clyde McFadder, uh Mel Tormey some of the great singers Sade, if I hear a great voice I say, Mm, I could write something to suit that voice and that style and that inspires me. Um so your question uh originally w with O'Carrol certainly, you know, uh at the time I analyzed the Billboard uh charts.

And you mentioned your piano concerto Manhattan Intermezzo, which is on the new album. How was that piece as a writing challenge compared with the other songs? Because the songs are so tight and so focused and this is this is quite a different piece of music, isn't it?

When you write classical you have much more creative freedom, uh harmonically, rhythmically. It's much more challenging. Uh it's uh very rewarding, I must say. being from Manhattan, I wanted to uh catch the spirit of New York, both the ethnic groups of New York, the uh Latin, the Oriental, the Russian. We're we're a big melting pot of nationalities.

Well, great.

I'm very proud of it. He's done many, many scores, movies and uh T V. Mm. And he's done a few of my albums over the years. The Emergence album, classically Sadaka album. I've been doing it around the country but I'm very excited about doing it uh at the Albert Hall.

Does classical music figure in your pop writing in any way? Do you ever take any inspiration from the sort of cadences and counterpoint and melodic phrases of your favourite classical composers?

Absolutely. Solitaire is very Chopinesque. I think uh many of my uh ballads. There's a song called Cardboard California, which uh w is inspired by many classical uh uh influences Um, the hungry years. Many, many of the pop songs are inspired by my roots, my classical roots. And also I have that ability that many of the pop singers don't have. Uh not many of my contemporaries can write a serious piece or a concertto.

Right. And it's clear that collaboration has always been a big part of your writing process. Mm-hmm. You've mentioned Howie Greenfield and um we know that you had that relationship from your early teens and then the brill building success. One of the things we've read is that you and Howard always fought over the songwriting. We wondered if you could talk about how that aspect of the relationship worked.

Well you do have to fight a little because sometimes I liked a a a phrase, a musical phrase and how he couldn't put the lyrics he wanted in that musical phrase and forced me to change. And you have to do what's best for the song. And vice versa. If I didn't like some of his lyrics I would put my two cents in and uh and have him change some of the words. So, you know, after thirty years of writing together there has to be some dissension and some uh differences of opinion.

Did you and Howard have specific songwriters that influenced you both?

Oh yes. How he loved uh Lorenz Hart. When Richard Rogers uh wrote with Lauren's Heart, My Funny Valentine and those wonderful songs. Um and I was inspired s by the people I listened to growing up. Um Rosemary Clooney, Johnny Ray, Patty Page, K Starr, Les Paul and Mary Ford, those kind of songs, the standard evergreen songs. And um I did have an album

We were just saying that to each other earlier on today. Actually, we were listening to You, the song You, and we were just saying how it's so perfectly suited for musical theatre, the opening verse, you know.

A very special song, um it gets a standing ovation. the f very week I wrote it, I put it in the concert tours. And uh for an unknown ballad to get a standing ovation, that's quite an accomplishment. People have used it for their wedding songs. I I have now put it in the z I think the third C D that I included it in because it's such a very touching song. Uh that was one where I wrote the lyric first and the melody after.

When it comes to some of your best-known songs from your early days, like Happy Birthday, Sweet 16, Calendar Girl, Stupid Cupid, etc., um were those songs mostly brill-building songs, or did some of those date back to your teenage years working with Howard?

It was the Brill Building Sound, the New York City sound, and uh before that we wrote doop. I had a group called The Tokens. There are two in this album that I wrote when I was sixteen years old.

Oh.

No one ever recorded them. Everybody knows and Queen of Hearts never recorded. I remembered them as being wonderful zoo op songs, so I you know how much I love harmonizing with myself and doing uh multiple meals. So I included them in the Real Neal. You know, being one of the forerunners of doo op music, I wanted to include them.

Yeah, we've always loved songs like Next Door to an Angel and songs like that.

Thank you.

Um, many of the lyrical hooks in those songs in that early period had things like comma, comma, down, dooby doo, down, down and those sorts of phrases. Was there any discussion about replacing those with regular words?

Well, you know, it became a trademark. Uh when we ran out of lyrics, Howie and I would just sing your dooby doos and tralalas, and then I thought it would be very cute to keep it in the song. in the finished record. And it became a Neil Sadaka trademark. So I was the king of the dooby doos and the tralala.

Yeah, well another song you don't hear the kind of very often is is Where the Boys Are. Um that's one of your most majestic and moving songs.

Thank you.

Do you have any memories of how that one was crafted into existence?

Uh yes, Connie was doing a movie. That's the only song on assignment that I wrote. Other than that I only wrote for my own voice, my own albums and C Ds. But Connie was doing a movie called Where the Boys Are and um she convinced the uh producer to use two new writers, Neil Sidaka and Howard Greenfield, and we wrote two songs with the same title, Where the Boys Are. We all liked the one that was not picked.

Yeah.

But uh Joe Pasternak, the producer of the movie, picked uh the one that we know now. Where the boys are, someone waits for me. Yes it is, thank you for saying majestic. Of course Canny's voice helps quite a bit. But the song itself is very well constructed, um, if I may blow my own horn. The melody is is beautiful and uh it's just enough, you know.

The brill building era always conjures up this image of songwriters in a sparse room with a piano writing hits every day. What kind of discipline is required to be a great songwriter? Do you write often or do you work when you're inspired?

In those days we worked five days a week from ten in the morning till five at night. It was a great way to learn your craft. Some days you didn't come up with anything, but you had a piece, a small piece of something that could develop the next day. So I always had a tape recorder there, otherwise I would forget it. Uh even today I write a couple of times a year and I have a tape recorder right next to me because if I didn't I would lose it forever.

Mm-hmm.

And you say in your autobiography that you reached the point where you started to write records, not just songs. Mike Stollers on record is saying a similar kind of thing. Can you expand on that at all?

Well, when I wrote at the piano, the left hand was the bass that eventually became the bass a part on the piano. the right hand were the sweeteners, the uh the strings, the horns were in the middle. And yes, I did write records because in those days it was two and a half minutes. You had to tell the whole story in a two and a half minute uh song.

Mm. Uh but you later wrote together again. In the meantime you wrote some huge hits, uh songs like Bad Blood and Laughter in the Rain with lyricist Phil Cody. Mm-hmm. Was there anything different about that relationship in terms of the way you wrote songs with Phil?

Well, Howie and I were uh social friends. My wife and Libra and I used to hang out with uh Howie and and his uh companion Tori and we would go on trips together. We grew up in the same neighborhood in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn. And that writing of the Brill Building was much different than the Phil Cody, Neil Sadaka songs. Cody was more poetic, more evasive, more elusive, painted pictures, uh Solitaire and Laughter in the Rain painted beautiful pictures

We heard you say once that you're happiest when you write your own lyrics.

Yes.

Does that mean that it's harder for you to connect emotionally with songs where others have contributed the words?

You know, as great as the lyricists were I collaborated with, they put words in my mouth mostly. Right. I think when I write lyrics now, it's more personable, it's more intimate, it's coming from deep down inside me. I think the audience strangely can recognize when the singer is singing his own thoughts.

That's really interesting to hear you say that because as listeners, when we hear you sing something like The Hungry Years or The Immigrant or Betty Grable, you seem to connect so closely with the emotions of those songs.

Well, I was closely collaborating, certainly, and I would never have recorded them if I didn't believe them and love them. Right. Um Betty Grable, uh, was a favorite of mine in the movies growing up and uh The Immigrant is uh what can you say? It's a masterpiece uh lyrically by Phil Cody. I would not have sung it with that conviction If I didn't really believe it.

Do you regard your most successful songs as your best songs or are there songs that got lost along the way that you quietly think of as gems? One that I've discovered in researching is um silent movies from emergence.

Oh thank you. Uh silent movies is something that I don't think anyone ever touched that kind of subject. And when I hear it I'm mesmerized. When I hear it I say, I wonder who wrote that? It's almost as if somebody else wrote that. I've had that experience many times. Uh the other side of me is one of those forgotten gems. But uh the emergence album is a lost treasure. Gone with the morning, Superbird, Cardboard California.

No, it's been a great discovery for us. As Brian said, we've only recently come across emergence and it's just uh great to discover it.

Thank you. You should listen to the George Martin album I did with George, a song and one I did with Dan Hartman called Now and then one all you need is the music with Artie Butler. Uh I have five or six that have never been transformed to C Ds and the songs they'll be lost if someone doesn't finally do them as a C D. Recently uh Verisi Saraban recording company uh did uh The Hungry Years and Sadaka's back on C D and uh this is the way the young people will Discover Neil Sadaka.

picked out of Stockport with the guys from T C. On albums like The Trall Days Are Over and Solitaire in the early seventies. Did they influence your approach on those albums at all?

Absolutely. Marvelous musicians, creative geniuses. Those records they made, uh I'm not in love are standard magnificent masterpieces, um, or things we do for love. Um, they certainly inspired me on the Triladays and the Solitaire. The musicianship, the production, the playing, uh Graham Gouldman and Godly and Cream and uh they were marvelous musicians.

Yeah, songs like The Adventures of a Boy Child Wonder and Dimbo Man seem to really harness that style that they have.

Oh yes, they they blues it up and they uh pushed me in another direction. I didn't have to look at a clock where at R C A Victor the old records I had three hours to do three songs. Here we took breaks and uh Jimbo Man is uh It's uh it's unique. Uh Adventures of a Boy Child Wonder unique. Uh I remember Roger Atkins who wrote Jimbo Man with me, um, called me, said, I'm shocked.

The songs continue to surprise you with their longevity, cause songs like Solitaire seem to make a comeback every few years. Then there's Amarillo which is just a perennial classic

Well you'd like to think that the songs are timeless and I think some of them will outlive me. Uh I think certainly uh Marilla will outlive me. To hear forty thousand people in a soccer match sing it is a great thrill. Or when I did Hyde Park a couple of years ago, uh, for the proms to hear forty two thousand people in the audience sing tra la la la la la la la It's an incredible thing. It's a marvelous feeling. When I get up and sing them, I have this funny experience

Wow. And your songs have been covered by dozens of artists from Frank Sinatra to Elvis and Elton John and ABBA and all these great artists. Are there still things that you want to achieve as a songwriter?

I'd like to see one more number one C D before I say goodbye to the world.

Yeah.

That would be a great thrill. And um I still have a lot of faith in the writing. I'm very proud of the real Neal. You know, I'd like to see that once again because once you experience number one, you never forget that excitement and that thrill of seeing it at the top of the charts. It's happened to me a few times. I'd like to see it once more.

And is there anything that you're working on, any new projects or anything that you'd like to mention?

Well, I love I would love to see the Laughter in the Rain musical on the West End of London. Uh Bill Kenwright just uh we just spoke the other day and he uh has put a lot of time, effort and money into it with Laurie Mansfield and uh Philip Norman who wrote the play to Dear Friend, a great writer. I'd love to see that uh come to uh to life.

Fantastic. So the new album, The Real Nail, is out on October first, is it?

Yes, and the company is very excited. That gives it a much better chance when the company has enthusiasm and um You know, I I was afraid. I said, How can I put o out an album with piano and voice? But I've read some marvelous reviews thus far saying it's about time Neil Sadaka put out an acoustic album and uh I'm happy to read that.

Yeah, well we certainly think it's a revelation really, just so intimate and so uh enjoyable to listen to.

Thank you. You you almost make up your own instrumentation as you hear it. Everyone who hears it hears their own bass, drums, guitar parts. And uh that's an interesting concept.

That's great. Well, we wish you the very best of luck with the tour and the album.

Thank you.

And we can't thank you enough for speaking with us today.

Thanks so much.

Thank you. Very insightful questions. Are you just listeners or are you musicians yourself?

We're both musicians and songwriters and we work together under the name Soda Jerker.

And have you had things recorded or published?

We're pitching songs here and there and we've toured around the UK and had albums out and things like that, but uh

Keep going. It it's difficult, but don't be discouraged.

Thank you.

Okay.

We'll get a message over to you when this episode can be heard.

Oh I'd love to hear it. You really brought some interesting things out of my talk. Thanks.

Well as the man said, that was Neil from New York, also known as Neil Sadaka, an architect of the Brill Building Sound and a hitmaker of some sixty years standing. It was just a joy to have him on the podcast, wasn't it, Bright?

It was fantastic and it was slightly disconcerting at first to hear that mellifluous sing song voice on the other end of a phone line. It was so familiar.

It's weird, isn't it, when you know a voice so well and then all of a sudden it's in your ears and he's talking to you. Mm-hmm. He has some really interesting things to say about the writing process as well.

It was fascinating to hear that he still considers it a bit scary to sit down in front of her. blank sheets of paper at the piano and and try and come up with something. You know, you'd think someone of of his experience and amazing ability it'd just be a walk in the park to write a song, but it's it's kind of inspiring to know it's something he's still really works at and wrestles with

Mm-hmm. And you can hear that effort on his new album, can't you?'Cause he's really pulled out the stops, hasn't he? It's a great record full of nice new tunes.

You should definitely check that out, the real Neil.

Excellent. Okay, so hope you enjoyed our twenty-fifth episode with Neil Sadaka. We'll be back again soon with another one, but until then, check out so the jerker.com and get the other episodes of the podcast on our website or in iTunes and please keep in touch as well.

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