Episode 216 - Tori Amos

Hello there and welcome to Soda Jaker on Songwriting. This is Brian, joined as ever by Simon, and with us for episode 216 is a prolific, uniquely talented and hugely influential American singer songwriter and pianist.

She recently released her 16th studio album, Ocean to Ocean, written and recorded at home in Cornwall, England during the third UK lockdown, and it was from Cornwall that she recently joined us to discuss the new record and offer us a peek into her songwriting process. We are delighted to welcome the excellent Tori Amos to the show.

Our guest was born Myra Ellen Amos in Newton, North Carolina in nineteen sixty three and raised in Maryland. A self taught child piano prodigy, she won a full scholarship to the prestigious Peabody Institute in Baltimore when she was just five years old, by which time she was already making up her own songs too. At the grand old age of eleven she was asked to leave due to her disinterest in reading music and her burgeoning love of pop and rock, especially Led Zeppelin.

The young Myra continued writing songs and at thirteen began performing at piano bars, hotels and gay bars in Maryland, chaperoned by her father, who around the same time was sending her demos to various record companies, although to little avail.

Though the album wasn't a success, Tori remained on the label, returned to her beloved piano, and developed the singular style she would introduce to the world in nineteen ninety-two with the release of the instant classic Little Earthquake. Her solo debut sold well in the US and also found favour in the UK, where she begun to attract quite a following through her compelling live performances. She remains a brilliant live proposition to this day, of course.

Follow up Under the Pink did even better, debuting at number one in the UK, while the creative left turn that was Boys for Pele reached the top ten in the UK and US and quickly went platinum. She closed out the nineties with the electronica flavoured from the choir girl hotel and to Venus and Bath. While her first offering of the new millennium, not counting two thousand one's covers collection Strange Little Girls, was the twenty two nine eleven concept album Scarlet Twalk.

Tori ventured into the classical music world with 2011's Knight of Hunters, as well as writing the songs for the musical The Light Princess, which premiered in London in twenty thirteen. And as if her recorded output wasn't enough, she's penned not one but two memoirs, piece by piece, co-authored by music journalist Anne Powers and published in two thousand and five and last year's Resistance.

Keep up to date with their latest news at toriamos.com, Facebook.com slash toriamos and at Tory Amos on Twitter and Instagram. Find us at Sodajer dot com, Facebook.com slash Soda Jaker and at Soda Jaker on Twitter and Instagram. If you've just discovered the show you've got ten years worth of episodes to catch up on in our archive, so you might want to pace yourself for it. Oh and be sure to follow, rate and review us on your podcast provider of choice.

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Before we move on, many thanks to Becky for her help setting this up.

Okay, here we are talking ocean to ocean with the brilliant Torre.

Thank you so much guys. Means the world.

From what we've read, it seems like you had plans for quite a different album. But when we were hit with several lockdowns, you actually threw some stuff away, I think, and started over.

Yeah, that's right. I don't know how you all fared during the lockdowns. We were okay on the first one, I must admit. We were doing okay. And then by that third one I think I hit the wall for all kinds of reasons. America's Madness, etcetera. So yes, the songs that I'd been working on just weren't resonating. They weren't taking me where I needed to go anymore.

Right. So does that mean that the songs we're hearing on Ocean to Ocean are all basically a batch of songs you completed in lockdown?

Yes. They are. But I've been working on stuff since twenty seventeen. collecting them to put out an album and do a tour. The idea was to do a tour in twenty twenty around the American election. But of course, because of COVID the tour got kicked down the road. We were supposed to go out then again this November in the States. We had to move that again because of the Delta variant. We were seeing signs in end of July, warning signs.

Right. I believe uh Metal Water Wood was the first song written for the album, or for this version of the album.

Yeah, it was the first completed song, yeah.

Did that one kind of light the way for you in terms of the sorts of songs that you wanted on this finished version?

Well it it did because I was just in a place where whether you call it a rut or despondency, I knew I needed a different energy. for me as a human being to walk into. And songs have the ability to do that for me. And I'm I'm sure they do for you guys too. whereby you can travel sonically travel if you have the right sonic rocket. And so nothing was really working. And I went to the fighters, the idea of I have to fight this monster, the sadness monster.

Yeah, no, I love that uh philosophy of his, that idea that water is uh malleable but it can crash and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, exactly.

I caught a line in Metalwaterwood where you said it's been a brutal year so I thought maybe this was your kind of post lockdown slump

Yeah, I was definitely in a slump. I won't lie to you guys. I can't lie to a Scouser.

No, we can see through phonies.

I know, I know you can. Five to zero. Champions winners. Yeah, I know. But when you're in that place and I don't know how you guys approach it, but I was trying different things and to dance around it, to pretend it wasn't happening, and a certain point the music said to me, You need to be Honest. with where you are. As an artist, be honest. And if you can be honest

It's fair to say it's quite an introspective album in places, with songs like Twenty Nine Years and Birthday Baby. Is writing a therapeutic process for you, would you say?

Sometimes it's torture because Sometimes it's really it's quite a a climb over many mountain peaks to get to that bridge or to find that B section and to listen back and go mm No. Verse isn't right. It's just not right. We are not telling the story in the way that we need to tell the story. And how does this happen? that's a thing that sometimes people will ask me the process and it's a mystery how I'm gonna get out of a really sticky wicket because

Mm-hmm.

Do you tend to have any typical kind of starting points for songs? Like will you go to the piano typically or or maybe start with a a concept or a lyrical idea or does it just depend?

All of the above are on the table. For me, it's you know, it doesn't matter. I could be wherever. and something hits and I write it down, or I see something and I take a picture of it. It could be a seashell or a rock on a beach. Or it's just an observation I'm having in a coffee shop or a documentary that Dash is making me watch because fair play. I was a sitting duck and we were here in lockdown together and she loves her documentaries.

Right. Yeah, that line, um, stay with me until we unravel this fishing net, that wasn't something I expected to hear in that song. But I guess it's kind of well, it felt almost like a metaphor for trying to solve a a difficult problem.

Definitely trying to solve a difficult problem and I think yes, I was responding to a documentary and I was also responding to people having a difficult time through these lockdowns. I got many letters. So these things were happening at the same time where there's a song dealing with that. And yet there's the emotion that people were Some people were really overwhelmed with

We think you've got quite a gift lyrically for seizing upon phrases that might allude to some more complex issue. Something like um how glass is made, for example. That had me thinking about what it takes to make and and maintain something beautiful and fragile.

So I collect these ideas all the time. I collect them. Maybe I get a good one more than once a day, but If I get a good one every couple days I'm very, very, very, very, very, very grateful. And so I just um I treasure them and I put them in a little book. that I carry around and I have stacks of these little books that by the time I get around to things I have these ideas that I've been collecting or possible thoughts. that then I think can be cast. They can be cast into a different story.

So the material in the notebook acts as a prompt for you to start something?

Yes. Or they're my fail safe. Right. When I'm stuck and I can't find that line. And because I've been doing this for such a long time, Sometimes I've been collecting something for twenty years.

Yeah.

You know, you you just don't know. If you know where to put your hands on your doodlings or your meanderings. Or your what is it? Your you know, your dreamings. Then I think that sometimes you sit and go, Okay, maybe that's the spice I need in this. Maybe I just need those three words. Right here. Drop them in right there.

And you've always dealt with more than just your own um experiences in songs, whether it be politics or mythology or the environment or whatever. Do you like to have a concept for an album or a song before you start or or might you appreciate an overarching theme once you've actually got all the material together.

The question The albums are different, some have been concepts. There's this one called American Doll Posse that I did whereby I used the Greek pantheon of archetypes and made a band of them. So five women that I played and there would be a visual team. I knew there would need to be a visual team. But then I needed to get the characters right and really understand what each woman was embodying.

So you mentioned your muses before, and we have spoken to quite a few songwriters over the years who talk about channeling their songs from somewhere. Is that still how it works for you? Do you still feel like y it's kind of like dictation from outside forces in some way?

In some way, yes. And then it's co creating. For me, I can feel when they have walked in the room or landed. and they're present and I can begin to hear them and sometimes it's pictures that they're showing me. It could be light filaments, it could be Anything. And so I'm trying to translate what they're communicating.

Yeah.

I mean I can't lie. And so that's happening, trying to find those sonic ingredients. And trying to push myself to a place where my inhibitions are off and I will try some dangerous stuff. When I say dangerous, I'm talking about song structure. I'll push it. I'll do something that I will pull back and say, oh my God, that's just unacceptable. But sometimes I have to take it there to know where I shouldn't go.

So do you still have quite a lot of agency in the process then to kind of define what the songs will be like?'Cause you mentioned translation. Are you kind of like the crafts person who's shaping what comes through?

I guess so, yes.

Once I get that to a good place, I'll come and take it to Mark and play it to him. and then we'll see where I am. If the bridge needs a bit more or something else, then we'll listen to it. And I find when you listen to something with somebody you trust and then you listen back for me anyway, I hear differently. So then I can go Okay.

Yeah. And sixteen albums in, is this process any faster than it used to be or or would you say it's still as painstaking as it ever was?

Unfortunately, I was still writing songs while we were mixing. Right. Which was driving everybody mad, as I'm sure you can imagine. But that's just what it was this time. And I wanted to make the deadline. I haven't missed the deadline, but by throwing a bunch of songs out saying, nope, they're just not the right ones for this time. Then it put a lot more pressure on me and everybody else.

We were gonna say actually we loved the rhythm section work on the album.

Yes, so that's um Matt Chamberlain on drums and John Evans on bass.

Yeah. They've been with you for a while, haven't they, I think?

They have, but we haven't we recorded Christmas Tide, the EP, came out this time last year, and we were really testing the idea if this process could work. Before then they would fly in here. And we would all just jam and figure it out. But that wasn't possible. So we were fortunate we had the opportunity to do the EP called Christmas tide and saw that it could work. We tested the formula.

When you find yourself under pressure and you're trying to produce material, obviously we think of your process as this extremely pure form of expression. But are you able to ever say, okay, It's these four chords, it's this title and sort of see what you get. Would an exercise like that produce anything worthwhile for you?

It could be an interesting exercise. It's not a challenge I would run away from. I would see what could happen. You know? I'd see what could happen, but a lot of times I'm approaching it from a inspirational point of view instead of an exercise point of view. Or just if I do this chord progression, maybe I'll just put this down and then see if a melody comes on top. I haven't really tried that approach, but it's not off the table. It's not invalid. I just usually approach it differently.

Just thinking because we've got so many guests over the years who've talked about setting some limitations for themselves like that and then being surprised at the results that they actually produce something that they like, you know?

Yeah. No, I can see that. I just haven't been clever enough to come up with that, but maybe I sh maybe I will now.

Mm-hmm.

And would you say your your writing has kind of evolved to the process that you have now, or has it pretty much always worked in the same way?

Once I started writing for this record I did call Little Earthquakes, which is in the late eighties, early nineties, then that technique has really stayed with me, which is observe, document. Whether that's on at the time cassette or now it's an iPad or an i whatever that is. And then on pen and paper. document as much as I can, so that I don't lose the moment, and then collect these little segments, and then start weaving.

I bought little earthquakes on cassette in the early nineties, I have to say.

Cassette.

Yeah. I used to love cassettes. They were great for reading the lyrics on the inlay and all of that.

You needed good eyes to do that.

That's true.

That's a squint of it.

Yeah, I couldn't see him now of my life depending.

Uh-huh.

So all those songs that are kind of embedded in the minds of fans like Silent All These Years or Crucify or Cornflake Girl, they all came through a similar kind of very pure kind of process.

Well, I mean, okay, li if we're dissecting this, so I think I had been working with somebody, the amazing Al Stewart at the time, and We had been co-writing some stuff for him. And I think I did B Vs on a record that he'd done in the late eighties, something like that, and maybe some keys. And I don't know, I just thought maybe I'll write a little song for Al. So I had that piano figure going.

And to come back to the new album. Um Spies is another favourite of ours on there. I love the simplicity of the hook on that one. In particular. Is that a challenge to just choose kinda a few notes that can be a distinctive moment in a song?

Yeah, it is. It is, actually. because it's tricky to make sure you land on something that's catchy without it being to use a British word twij. So to make it work And think, okay, it can be simple and simple can hold. Simple can sustain a listener. Especially if the construction of everything else is in place. So that when you land in that simplicity, it's a relief.

Mm-hmm.

And then you're off again. And then when you get back to that simplicity, it's like you're breathing again and it's a relief and you know it and you're safe there. And you're happy to be there. And then we whisk you off again somewhere else.

Right. And I think he wrote that once to cheer up your daughter, is that right?

Yes, to cheer her up but also get her back in her room because she is twenty one now. She was twenty at the time. So this was over the summer and it was really hot down here. I don't know what it was like up there in Liverpool.

Quite wet. Most of the time.

Oh, okay. Well it was hot in July. And so the bats were coming in. We're in an old farmhouse in the country. And so I think they were coming in for to get some water. But they found her and it freaked her out. So I'm thinking I've gotta get her back into her room because she's taking over the downstairs. So um Lullabies would work for her when she was younger, so I just needed a type of lullaby that would work for a twenty-year-old.

He creates a lovely atmosphere on Spies and so many songs um on the record. Just with that kind of layering of, you know, very delicate bits of synthesizer and and the backing vocals. Are they things that you think about in the writing process or would that be something you would probably layer up in the studio in the actual recording process?

Yeah, we layer that up in the in the recording process, but in the writing process, I'm trusting that all that will be there. All that has to be there if we need it to be there. So no no different than I don't know, I guess adding things in the kitchen. Mm-hmm. Some things as you know are are there in the structure. They're built there. But I feel like we usually know when a structure can hold multilayers.

And despite the album having its beginning. In lockdown, it's quite geographically expansive, isn't it? You've got, you know, references to Londontown, the Cornish coast of England on swim to New York State. It's there's kind of an imagined travel element to it.

Yeah, I guess because I couldn't go anywhere. I needed to use my imagination because traveling is something I love. That's how I process things. maybe a coping mechanism for me. So without that being allowed, I still needed to apply it, implement it, just so that I could shift, transmute. And travel like in a sonic rocket ship. I just needed to do that.

I love that alliteration of Cornish Coast. Sounds really lovely. How did that song emerge for you? Did you start with that line quite early on?

The line was there. Right. I'd swim to New York State from the Cornish coast of England. That line was there and that was all that was there. With the melody and the chord. That was there. And I just That's all. But I played it to Mark and he said, That's going on the record I said, Yeah, yeah, but that's all I've got He said, Yeah, TikTok So I was hoping it would show up, but it kept being elusive because I was really trying to get to it, figure it out.

I wonder if it's your awareness to those kinds of experiences that allows all that to happen. Where it might not happen for someone else, you know, who might have a kind of equal technical facility.

Well, when people say, Okay, so we've done three songs. And it's June and you gotta deliver this on the third of September. And I'm like, it's a mystery. I know team. I know. But the muses are telling me we're gonna make the date and I know it gets a little bit you get the eye rolls from the guys, from the musicians, like, really? Can't they hurry up?

And am I right in thinking you've got no time for the concept of writer's block, that you don't really believe in it?

I don't buy into it because I think to give that energy is not where I want to be. You know, I think you can feed that monster and I think it can become a monster. And so I don't feed that monster. I kind of wink at it. And dance with it and say, Okay, so we're in a different cycle right now. Maybe I'm an intake. So I'm gonna read a bunch of stuff. I'm gonna look at art books. I'm gonna listen to music, I'm gonna watch documentaries, watch some movies, I'm gonna go observe.

Ha ha ha.

And I suppose you have had some songs come entirely in one pass avenue words and music, so that helps to kind of do away with the idea of being blocked.

Yeah, that doesn't happen often though. When it does, it's like wow.

But usually I get a little bit at a time and then I've gotta really work for it. You know, then you're chiseling. You know,'cause sometimes these downloads come at like thirteen minutes a pop.

Yeah.

It's sort of like you're on a mushroom trip. But not. It depends if you're half asleep, half awake, and you're recording it. It depends what's going on. And so then you have to sort through that and go, Okay, at seven minutes we got somewhere. And then at nine minutes it's all gone. So it's really then not just recording these kind of hypnosis moments. I don't know what you call'em, like not out-of-body experiences, but sort of like, okay, let's just jam with the muses and see what happens.

Was there a point where you developed this kind of connection with your own creativity or would you say it was always there?'Cause I know you were obviously playing piano really young and probably writing from that age as well.

I think what happened is I had it. at a really young age and then when I started chasing what songs to write because you wanted to get signed or get played on the radio or get people to say, Oh, that's a song we could use You know, once you step into then once I did, not anybody else. because I do think there are people that can write, not in a mercenary way, but can write and say, I'm gonna write a song that is sort of like that hit from two months ago

Would you say you learned a lot about songwriting from your time playing in all the the hotel bars and things when you were younger? Was that a good way to sort of pull apart other people's songs and see how they worked and then you could later apply that to your own songwriting?

Absolutely. The best thing I think a songwriter can do is play a bunch of songs from a bunch of different genres. 'Cause then you start seeing how other writers you see the trapdoors within the structure. You begin to say, Okay, what's that? And then you start working it out. You analyze it. Even if it takes you some time. Don't be afraid. Never be afraid.

And I know you've done quite a lot of writing about songwriting in your books too. Has that helped you to kind of know your own creativity better?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think so, because I think especially In the book that I did called Resistance, I had a really good editor. His name is Rakesh Satchal, and he's a writer himself, a novelist. So therefore, he was really asking questions and what we would do is we would sit down and have these chats and he'd record them and ask me questions and really push the boat out when we're chatting. And then he would drill down on some of these conversations.

So you might have to gather up a whole range of materials that will help you to write a song.

That's right. That's right. We're back to that sonic kitchen, that sonic pantry, getting those ingredients in there. And sometimes the ingredients is a two bar musical phrase, and that gets documented too somewhere. So I'm collecting while I'm waiting for those muses to land, So it's not that I'm just sitting there waiting. I'm gathering. But when they come, then there's this voltage. Then there's that bit of magic. that I can't explain, but I know that I don't have it when I'm by myself.

Right. So it's kind of one of those opportunity meets preparation kind of moments where you're showing up and gathering the stuff and then when inspiration strikes it all seems to happen.

Yes, that's right. But sometimes they don't show up for weeks. Wait.

Is that quite isolating for you?

Yeah, it's torture. Yeah. Of course. But because now I realize this is the cycle But you have to remind yourself when they're not showing up that it's the cycle. And that's why I won't feed that monster of being barren. Because the idea of barren That's just not something that I like to sizzle with. Mm-hmm. I think the idea is no, we're getting the ground prepared, we're getting the soil prepared, we're gonna plant, there will be a veggie patch.

Yeah of course.

That's such an interesting one. We were talking about it and how the colour of the music seems to even capture that kind of very foresty kind of earthy kind of quality. Wondered what you could tell us about that one.

Well, after Meadow Waterwood, I was drawn outside at the end of that process. So going out and watching, the gales were still blowing, but the trees seemed to be there was a sonic thing happening with them. And I was reading about how they communicate. There are books about this. One book is, hold on, I have it right here to tell you. It's called Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard, and it says Uncovering the Wisdom and Intelligence of the Forest.

Yeah.

Because it's very selfish of me. It's very selfish because I miss her so much, but maybe that's the problem. I'm trying to hold on instead of loving her enough to say, fly, mom. Fly. And then over the next few days. the song started to wrap itself around me, almost like she was holding me. And there was this kind of, I don't know, peaceful dancing with the trees in the forest, with my mom sending her off.

I have to say, um I read Resistance actually and um I loved those passages about your mum, I thought they were extremely powerful.

Thanks guys. I mean it's been look, it's been a journey. I'm sure you've gone through something similar when you lose somebody. Some days are better than others. And I want to just encourage everybody listening. Some days are better than others. But in those moments, sometimes it's music or art or whatever it is that brings back those memories and yeah, she is amazing wherever she is.

Well we really enjoyed chatting to you, Tori. Thanks so much for doing this.

I love chatting with you guys and if I'm playing live somewhere, please be my guest. I know you might not be able to make it, but we'll be in touch. We're touring February and March, so you'll see if something works. And if it doesn't, good luck with everything you're doing and good luck with your songs.

Oh thank you. No, we'd love to come along to a show. Absolutely.

I'll bring back a set of little earthquakes for you to sign.

Please do. Thanks guys, thanks so much.

Yeah, thank you.

شكرا للمشاهدة

Thanks so much. Thanks, Tori.

That was the great Tori Amos talking to us from her studio in Cornwall. That was precisely the chat I needed at that moment, Bri.

Yeah, me too. So nice to be wrapped up in a creative process for an hour and a soothing tone.

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously she's been watching the football too, it seems.

Yes, that reference to a five zero was in regard to Liverpool's emphatic victory over Man United the day before, which I was very happy about.

It was a life affirming conversation though, wasn't it?

It was you know, there's really nothing quite like getting to deep dive on the process with someone who's so attuned to making music and and listening to her instincts and keeping standards high.

Which she's done on this new album in Spade.

Yeah very much so yeah it's a great listen and we highly recommend it.

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, it's a really good rule of thumb that, isn't it? You know, so that when the concept presents itself she's got all the ingredients there to bring that idea to life.

It's a good practice, yeah. And why wait for that moment of inspiration to start preparing? You may as well just stock the pantry.

Stock the pantry. If you take one thing away from this episode, it's stuck that pantry. Hashtag stuck the pantry. She very much has this kind of heightened awareness though, doesn't she? You know, songs are like living, breathing things for her.

There's a kind of respect for the song that permeates her work.

Definitely, yeah. So thanks to Tori for such a nourishing conversation and cheers also to Becky for setting it up.

We'll be back soon with more talented folks, so see ya then.