Soccer For USPod, Episode 111: Can USL Pull Off a Division One League...?

Hey, y'all, welcome to another episode of Soccer for US. I am Mark and on this episode we're gonna be chatting about well, it's MLS kickoff weekend, so we're going to be chatting about not MLS, which is kind of funny. We are going to be talking about the USL United Soccer League, as you as the extrapolated name of it is, and their news that they are going to launch a Division one men's league come twenty eight, So to talk about that with me on this episode is the greatest

I'm doing fine, cold up here in the Northeast, so MLS season kicking off might hopefully give me a little warmth of my soccer socker heart to get me through these cold winter days.

It is. Indeed, I will be at a tailgate this Saturday for Atlanta Nights home opener and the lowest twenty seven, the highest forty nine, so that'll be a fun Saturday. Hopefully it's closer to forty nine. And when we're tail dating. Also joining us is the man who is the lead soccer writer for Bluff City Media and the host of the nine er one Soccer podcast, which is also on the Bluff City Media Network. It is Lawrence Docker. You've heard him on here before. Lawrence, welcome back.

Thank you.

Not to rub salt in any wounds, but you're not really part of USL anymore, but you have a lot of valuable insight and I think you're particular. Also, maybe grudge, if I put it that way nicely, might come into play here tonight.

Well I don't.

I don't know that any of the parties involved that we're going to be talking about tonight, I necessarily hold a grudge against any of them. My grudge is more against the Memphis Grizzlies. But you know they operate, They operate like a certain Italian organization from the seventies in New York. So I better not say too much or they're going to find me in the back of a car somewhere. But no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll end up in the river. You know, Memphis nine I want

Why is the question that we're hopefully I don't know if we'll answer it, because only I think a select group of people know. But we're going to talk about it.

But before we answer that, I can't answer the why not Well.

We probably all can. Before we get into that, Thomas, I got to ask you, man, we watched the last time we recorded. We were keeping up with a twenty two to nothing drubbing by the US U seventeen national team over the British, the US version I keep calling them the British version Islands, the US Virgin Islands. We owned them and we beat them that badly real quick.

I think it's twenty nine knowledge one that no knowledge one, that's thirty thirty one.

Yeah, three. They scored a lot of goals, Thomas. Look, the competition was what it was, But I just want to know your thoughts on the guys and what this means for them and as we look forward at now the U seventeen World Cup that we've officially qualified for.

Yeah, I mean it's always good to qualify for the World Up for these young for these young U seventeen players. I mean the Cuba match was the most competitive match to.

Nil win for them. I don't think we took a lot from that. In general.

There are some players that you'll probably want to watch, uh, you know, out of this group. But it's just I'm disappointed that we didn't have a knockout stage of the tournament. You know, fine, have your have qualifying, but also to have a knockout stage for these players to kind of experience.

That level of tournament heading into that tournament.

So because eight and eighteens qualified, so it's it's a big group from Cockcaff heading to this h you know, uh you seventeen World Cup.

Yeah, it definitely given the expanded field, this was the most logical way to determine eight qualify qualifiers. But I'm with you, I wish we would have had some sort of a knockout round, because you know, it's just more fun, Lawrence, like I said, I don't think you could look at

Yeah, and it's it's it's one where you know, that's what you're You're just scrolling through the Twitter feed and I saw it was like half like seventeen nothing. I said, hang on, time out now wait hey now, but so I mean, scoring that many goals, good, winning all your games, good, Conceding zero goals good. I'm with both of you, guys. I do wish that maybe there had been some sort of knockout stage. Maybe probably might have gone roughly the

So sorry, how many of the teams that you referee could have beat the US Virgin Islands? Like, let's let's be really.

Like regular weekend tournament to Mike Rose, maybe not a whole lot, but you get to events like President's Cup and Regionals and Nationals. Yeah, I think there are any any number of them. Probably not too.

That was my unfortunate thought the whole time was like, man, I've some of the e CNL teams that I get, you know, some of the NAL teams. The Yeah, anyway, we got the job done. That's what matters. The women will have their U seventeen qualifiers coming up in April? Did I get that right?

Yeah?

And up March thirty, first start April. It starts in April, so that'll be a hopefully a summer Lily, I don't want to say dismissive, but guaranteed path to the World Cup. That would be great. That is done. So let's that has done. So let's move on to what we actually came here to talk about. The United Soccer League announced last week right before Valentine's Day, they were showing some love to the soccer world that they are going to take a quote bold step forward with the launch of

Right.

There are standards you have to meet. We will talk about those in a bit, but in theory, it's the league that's at the top of the pyramid. US Soccer only has one of those right now, it is MLS. There have been others that have tried in the past, including an ASL well Air Quotes tried tried to form a Division one pessional league and for many different reasons,

I don't.

I don't. I don't know that I do have a better answer, because it's it doesn't make any sense to me. It's it's just there's there's there's there's no reason to do this. There's just not and and we'll touch on I don't want to want to blow the whole show here in the first fifteen minutes, but I mean, I guess nominally you want to take the game to more places,

That is.

I think that's that's a recipe for disaster. I think this might end up going the way of the old, the original XFL, where they gave themselves no time to do anything and it was a success for a day and then and then it imploded.

So I.

My gut tells me this is what they think they need to do to capitalize on the World Cup being in the United States, and it is my belief, in my opinion, that it is folly because there's already like they would be much better served stabilizing what they have and bettering their existing product than trying to add to it and essentially newter some of the best things that they have going.

That's a great point that Thomas, you and I have talked about this. It very clearly seems like the why is to capitalize on the World Cup. But isn't it fair to say, well, you can still you know, put soccer in more communities and capitalize on the excitement of the World Cup while just having Division two and three teams.

You can, I mean, and I think the model is challenging because they have to again we'll get into it, well, you have to meet certain minimum requirements for for uh, you know, Division one status, and I think that's I think that's where they're going to fall short. I don't know if an exception for a period of time, but you know, to Lawrence's point, they are they're very much rushing into this. I mean, you can't. It's not like, oh, we've got to do it now. Because I think they

To watch the matches. Right, So like like take that uniqueness. I understand it's maybe a money grab a little bit, but you know, learn from the NASL. You know, they could not do it.

They had eight years, you know, when they came back in twenty eleven, and they weren't able to really hold it and you know, MLS is growing, it still growing very rapidly with you know, their teams, and I.

Think I think there may be ulterior motives.

Personally, I don't know if they're trying to try to align with the MLS in some way and trying to partner with them a little bit.

I think there's an opportunity there, but I just don't know.

If it's just trying to, you know, trying to capitalize on that World Cup, because if you were going to do that, you should have started four years ago.

Yeah, And just to be clear, I don't think trying to capitalize on hosting a home World Cup is a bad idea at all. I think everything that's basically been now that I don't have a team to cover on a regular basis, a professional team. I still got the University of Memphis Go Tigers. But essentially, like the last four podcasts I've done for the Not on One Soccer podcast have all been how do you capitalize on a home World Cup in the United States? So USL should

Uh.

But that I was a little kind of just firing from the hip on that one, since you know, the details were still emerging. But yes, try to capitalize on a home World Cup, just not by launching a new league. It needs to be solidifying and stabilizing what you already have, because let's be real, there's been a lot of tumult and up evil in the teams just within the USL Championship. That's I was involved in that league for six years.

You just got a USL team in your state, Portland, Heart's Pine their USL League one. They're going to be starting this year. They have had a great start. That to me is the great distinguishing factor of the USL system is and it's part of this press release, part of their kind of mission. They they talk about the deep community ties and quote bringing professional soccer to more markets, including mid sized cities.

Right.

Obviously Major League Soccer MLS is targeting major metropolis, right, that's kind of their thought process because they want to grab the biggest markets in the country. So if USL right now for the most part is grabbing and bringing soccer into those tertiary, secondary and tertiary markets, is do you do you think that that is?

I don't.

I Like I'm moving from the why because I just want to ask you personally, as someone who's kind of in that realm, like, is that something that is going to make you want to support Hearts of Pine more if they could possibly be in the USL Premiership or whatever they call it two years time?

Right?

I mean I think it's you know, I think it's a logistical challenge. I mean, I think there's there's there's interest in that. But I mean to the largest point, I think it's I don't know the exact number, so you know, but there's over thirty teams in the USL that since twenty eleven that that that have coming on, right, So and you know, some some last season. Some you know, the longest is what seven or eight seasons, and so

They're not crazy draws on that. So how are you going to build that fan base in that way?

You're gonna from a sustainability perspective, right, because there's only so much time, so much money, and so many people that are going to come to these sorts of things on a long term basis. So I think that's where the market struggles.

I mean, how you know, look at the mls.

They had the most attendance last year, but that's because of Messy, right, So when you look at these things, how is it sustainable. I don't know what their market strategy is to help build that, but I think, you know, again, they would be interested in it, but for how long I don't know.

I just don't think that.

I don't think that we have the population to support something of that nature.

I would love to see it.

I mean, there was a group in Maine that's tried, that had tried. Their vision was to have a USL you know, lower level teams within thirty minutes of each other, so you sentially you could go to a game whenever you wanted, you'd have it at these local stadiums. I love the concept of that, right, if there was a game on a night and like, hey, let's go. I mean I go to as many high school games as

I mean they started out gangbusters. The first year, I think not I want to see his attendance was like sixty eight hundred people a game, and then by twenty twenty four it was down to I have the number right here in front of me, it was twenty eight

Let's talk about those professional league standards and really the meat of what has to be accomplished. Because to be USL, both championship in League one meet professional league standards because they are pros and most of them are blanket like, you have to do certain things. There are certain things that a Division one league needs to achieve. One of those is they need to have twelve teams to start and fourteen total teams by year three. This is for

That's that's where the USL Championship already is right in right and the biggest cities that MLS isn't.

In the next thing, and this is the real crux that I think Thomas, you're getting at too. Is so stadiums must be enclosed, which, to be fair, yeah, that makes sense. You want a professional soccer stadium, it should be in closed, meaning that you just can't walk into it. With the minimum seating capacity of fifteen thousand, now, I will take some. I don't think the million plus is the biggest problem because this is the United States. We

Mean average attends I mean you got I mean in the beginning, you know you're probably gonna sell out most matches.

I'm guessing you know. And I think it's about a five to eight thousand. I don't know what the.

Statium iss Yah, it's about five thousand.

It's about five.

I think they're trying to expand sorry, six thousands.

Yeah, I think they're gonna try to expand it close to eight maybe put seats on the end uh in general. But but again I'm gonna I'm gonna expect that to be primarily sold out for the first season for sure. But I mean, you've got you've got to have at least, you know, four thousand in there, you know, consistently. I'm gonna say, like, you've gotta have sixty five percent capacity on that to make it viable, right, because they're dumping a lot of money into that, and there's a lot

You know.

Well, that's a great point. That's a great point. They don't last long. And this is actually one of the things that you I want to move on to the next couple of points, because they are I think speaking to that why did they fold? And one of the things that you need.

To have is.

The league must basically have they have They have to have like a lot of money basically, and that I don't think USL will have a problem getting that once say, if they launch a Division one team, they'll be able to get spawn. I don't think that'll be an issue. But from a league perspective or a club perspective, which that is the major difference between USL and MLS. MLS is a single entity model. USL is not. USL is

That's that's that's deliberately vague and nebulous capacity. I think you're this just is just just how much this is not even soccer brand. This is just how like regular Lawrence brain works, where it's just like you can you can make that work or not work, depending on you know, who you've got lined up in front of you. Demonstrate

And those definitions aren't listed, you know. And I'm sure, I'm sure US Soccer does have their metrics. I'm sure they have some sort of banking partner that they work with, some financial group. But that is a legitimate question. Now. One that does have a little bit harder, you know, definition is that the principal owner of the group must have an individual net worth of at least forty million dollars that does not include his ownership of the league,

Yeah, and it's it's something that you know, there's there's a lot that annoys me about MLS as somebody who's covered a USL Championship team for six years. There's there's a lot to dislike. But I think Alexi Lawless makes a compelling point when he says it's the most stable and most successful American soccer league in history. And I

Some might argue you've even added another team in Los Angeles' Yes.

And it has been. It has been one of the more on and off the field successful teams in the league. And you come back to the USL Championship. There's there's a lot more instability in the USL Championship than there has been an MLS, even even to this day. I have no way of verifying that. I have no access to the books or or any sort of insider information other than somebody that knows. Somebody that worked high up at nine O NFC said that they lost a million

I like that.

I don't like the other, the other American model, where if you sink you get all of the best of everything, and if you are good, well you don't get to be good anymore. Uh, That's that's insane to me. But you know, there are you know, there's the promotion and relegation is not like everything is fixed everything. It's not

Thomas. It's obviously financial is one thing, right, you need to have the money to put into it, but you've got to also Again, this is where unfortunately soccer in this country does have to be a business to some degree because we're not a country of We're not a soccer country in the sense that if you just put a club somewhere, people are going to go watch it

Right, I mean, I think you're you know, you're starting to have issues, not issues, but talks about players, you know what I mean. I know from the main thing, they're having tryouts, right, do they have to build a roster and right, so that's how they're building the roster.

So do they have enough.

Quality players are gonna be able to put an interesting product on the field. Outside of that, because of the thirty eight teams, I believe that in the USL that left the USL and moved to may have folded, may have gone to USL one whatever, you know, Like they average like four and a half years in the league, right, so that's right on that five year line right of that. So when you're averaging that period of time in that league, you're right on the edge of it, right of what

Well, I think that is the crux of my concerns. But one of the things that concerns me. And when you look at even MLS teams in large metro areas Chicago, the second largest city in this country, the Fire have struggled historically even when they've been good to really push the envelope in terms of attendance. Right, we are seeing finally that you know, to be fair to New York City FC and their baseball stadium, they average.

More than twenty thousand. They get, they get they get two Baseball.

Plus Yukon Stadium plus Red Bull Stadium.

Yeah, there was one day when they played a CONCERCAFF Champions League game at LAFC Stadium.

Yep, yeah they did. But they regularly average twenty thousand more fans. But there is one thing you notice when you look at especially MLS statistic figures, and I'll bring up us L Championship in a little bit, there is a line of dcation at like eighteen thousand. You either have eighteen and up or you have like twelve thousand.

Worth noting the the USL Final on CBS drew more viewers than MLS Cup Final drew on Fox slashed Apple TV.

Correct supposedly, we don't know what Apple TV actually said.

If the numbers were good, they would find a way to let us know. Nobody keeps good news quiet.

I do agree with that. I think it's fair to say that from a league standpoint, USL has financial viability overall as a league. They have existed in USL since twenty eleven and have established this Pyramid for the past five years. Those things I think are fair to say. They also meet most most clubs, and again you would get I think it is also fair to say, once you do become Division one, you'll find people who want

Yeah, and it's it's all gonna come down to, like at the end of the day, for any league anywhere, it's it's about the attendance, right, and especially in a league like the USL, where yes, they have a TV deal, but it is not you know, uh, the SEC on ESPN ABC paying every school in the conference seven hundred berzillion dollars a year.

It's not even to be fair MLS and Apple TV, which is very lucrative.

You know, exactly exact.

Brag about it as much as we want. It's bringing MLS a lot of.

Money, exactly well, which is why they took the upfront money and killed access to the league. But who cares when you got those checks?

Relevant?

But the thing with the USL and is the championship. And I've got the last three years of attendance for each team right here in front of me, right And I don't think it's a coincidence that the most successful or some variety of the most successful teams on the field are able to spend the most money. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the teams that are able to spend the most money all have the best attendance.

I know which Tibian, Sacramento Republic Sacramento had. Yes, so Sacramento has some sort of stadium agreement with the city. The city is very supportive of it. Now, okay, I will say this. Their original plans are twelve thousand seed Stadium, which makes a total lot of sense for us.

Yeah, exactly, because I think they're the the heart Papa Murphy's Park or whatever it is that they play at seats like eleven five, six nine. Yes, so twelve thousand boom right there.

So one I would say, anyway, always bet on yourself and make that I would make that fifteen thousand anyway. That's the question here to me is how do you do that?

So anyway, Yeah, but you know, Colorado Springs. They have their own stadium. New Mexico United is about to get their own stadium. I think several months ago the Albuquerque City Council said, do it.

Indy and the Albuquerque that's would they need that? They truly they need they need that type of investment from the city anyway.

Yes, and the wild card in there is Indy and this isn't. This is another thing that I that I I want to want to touch on is one of my concerns with USL doing a D one league is do they think that MLS is just going to sit there and go, yeah, that's cool. No, they're not us. The MLS, like I said, one of the things, there's a lot of things that annoy me. It's very clear

MLS does not seem to be actually interested in Indy. That again, I agree with you. Seems to be they shod their hand a little bit.

The the wild thing about that is how much the indie media went after and wanted a bullet put into Indy eleven. It was wild to see, like we had our problems here in Memphis with not on ONEFC, but it was more of like a neglect rather than outright hate. And my god, the indie star whoever that jackass columnist was was a jackass columnist. I mean like it was, it was, it was wild.

But again, I mean it's like I will say, going after what they called a minor league club, when y'all support a minor league baseball team building at a stadium recently in the recent years, wow to me.

So again, one of my concerns is MLS has operated for the last several years predatorily. Well then trying to put I mean that's the reason is saying that's the chief reason the San Diego loyal does not exist anymore. It's because MLS wanted to put a team in San Diego and they went bye bye. Same same deal with with a number of places.

I mean, look at Cincinnati and Nashville very specifically almost you know, being chopped up, you know by Emila saying hey we like that.

Come on Orlando City back in the day, talk about that and uh but you also look at the Open Cup. The biggest gate for most us L championship teams is when they get to host an MLS team in the Open Cup. M LS bailing on the Open Cup was not about uh what what what? What was the bullshit excuse.

They used I mean, they they talk about quality of competition.

Fixture congestion that we created.

It's they're not making money.

On it, no it I My belief is that they were trying to put the us L out of business. It it's your biggest it's your biggest gate, and we don't like that. So we're going by bye and y'all. Y'all aren't getting that money. H deuces. So again we come back to this D one league regardless, and this is a different discussion, but do we really think that the average American that doesn't know a whole lot about soccer is going to see USL D one? Huh? Major

I mean, we want to get into that in a little bit because I think a lot of questions, So do put a pin in that, because that is a direct question we need to ask. But I do want to allow a little bit of a counterpoint. And Thomas, you and I have talked about this on the podcast a little bit, but there are a lot of Americans who are very wealthy who own clubs in Europe. And the reason they do that is because it costs five

Know, I mean, it's yeah, I think it's pretty clear that they want the value they want, you know, they want to make money, and this is the problem, right, this is the problem. How are they going to make money? And I think being there already have some uniqueness over MLS. Continue with that if you again promotion relegation, I don't know how it would work with USL, but they're more aligned with how that would work better than the MLS. Is right, because MLS is not going to buy into that.

And MLS will never do it.

They won't do it in the way it needs that that that you know your Europe doesn't. They just won't because there's they're not gonna owners are not gonna be uh.

Relegated.

Spending five hundred million dollars for a franchise and saying, hey, you know what, you know, we had our chance and you you know, and in the in the league would hurt too if you have some of these you know had in LA or New York or whatever fall out and be and be relegated. So I think you have. I think it's gonna be a slower burn for them. I know they're probably impatient with that, but you know, the NA s L, just we sawry it did not work.

And also speaking of the n A s L, I also don't think it's a coincidence that this USLD one.

League they said it was a.

Drop three days after, three days after also totally not at all related to anything that we're discussing. But how wild was rock O Comiso's testimony. Holy mackerel, some of the stuff that dude was testifying to.

Look, I think the judge looked at him and said, yeah, I see why you weren't allowed to do this.

Yeah.

Oh man, let's let's just wrap up the the talk about the the professional league standards for D one real quick.

And just.

I want to say this and Lawrence and Thomas, I want your thoughts. I think that there is a way for USL to challenge, maybe it be not legally but maybe not in the court system, but challenge them and get some level of change that are not waivers, actual concessions from US Soccer to drop some of those not financial because I don't think they're budging onto the financial because that actually, to me is a key component of

I don't know. I mean that it makes sense to me, and that's what I would do because if you look at the teams currently in the USL Championship that have stadiums of that capacity, doesn't none of them have a snowballs chance in hell at getting any kind of support to justify status as a D one like Birmingham League.

There right now are three It's Birmingham, Yeah.

And they and I've been there. Look so little time out for a story. I covered a I don't want to see game in Birmingham last year at Protective Stadium. Protective Stadium is the home of Birmingham Legion, but it's it's uab's college football stadium. It's brand new, it's like three years old, very nice facility. The people that work there and that run that show do not know their

I will say for Miami two things. One they have put talked about possibly having a stadium.

Well, the problem. The problem for MIAMIFC is they've been dead last or second to last in attendance each of the last three years. Their forty nine game averages one, six and fifty nine people. They also have to play a number of games at FIU Soccer Stadium and they get like eight hundred people of a game for those, So that's I think probably not happening. And then the third one, if I had to guess, just because it's new,

There's a reason no one plays in an Oakland Coliseum anymore.

It's because Al Davis ruined it. It is well, it was a great baseball stadium, and then he and then I shan't speak ill of the dead.

The point is they have a couple of teams that could do it. The problem is, and I just don't see how they Basically the standards require a one year lease at the start of the season proven so I don't think Birmingham would have a problem necessarily with staying it protective. It's fine, UAB doesn't use that stadium, but for what six Saturdays a year, plus the Birmingham Bull which is not in soccer season, and then you.

Have the UFL team, this Birmingham Stein.

UFL team, But again those are not as many. You know, that's when that's another six to eight Saturdays.

I think it's five.

Yeah, yeah, Okay, you can work around it. You can find a way to play on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, whatever you want to do. There are ways around that. Oakland, they could stay at the Coliseum because lord knows no one else there, but that's not a viable option at all. I will say for Miami this is I think they could if they locked in with Pitbull Stadium and said we want to do this.

The artists, not pit pull the dog.

Pit pitbull, mister three h five, mister h I think that could be a legitimate thing. But who's moving to actual Miami very soon? In Miami, in er Miami. I actually think they's just wat places that would make sense. You have Fort Lauderdali United on the Women's Super League excited playing up there. So anyway, so we okay, let's we've talked about that for a second. Let's talk tackle

Maybe?

Uh?

I think it's called dream style still well, yeah, I don't know.

If it's New Mexico and New Mexico State that plays in Albuquerque, I forget, but it could be amazing. Maybe play there for a year a year possibly. That's another one we talked about. The stadium ready ones Birmingham. I think Birmingham could pull it off, and I think they could find investment to make it worthwhile they don't have any other real shows in that town to go visit.

If I had this, if I had to guess, I would lean more Oakland in that regard.

Just want to Oakland's ownership group as we're.

The The only bad thing I have to say about Oakland is when nine on ONEFC in early twenty twenty three was going to fly out there to play like the second or third game of the season. They flew all the way out there and showed up at the stadium and they were like, oh, guys, we forgot to tell you we just put new turf in yesterday, so we can't play the game. And I was like, how did you forget this thing?

The thing that Oakland has going for it is where it's physically located, or you know, is you're right next to Silicon Valley. Can you just get one of those tech bros who like soccer to dump in one hundred million dollars, you know, that's really all they need. Miami's kind of the same way. Can you get someone from who's rich who lives to Miami to buy into it. Birmingham might need a little bit more, but those money

Didn't I just build a new stadium like two years ago.

It's still a temporary stadium Technico.

Oh okay. I don't know why one wild card and I I don't know that you'd be able to do any sort of renovation or expansion, but it is and it's got It's a great stadium with an iconic backdrop. And that's Pittsburgh, the.

Nice literally like market market wise, it would work. I know we when we did our show on back in October, the three of us when talking about where US soccer and start playing some games. I'm pretty sure we were all in agreement that Pittsburgh would would be a good place. But you know, surprisingly, for as long as they've been around and as good as they they're really a regular season team, they're not really.

A postseason team. But as good as they are in the regular season, they don't get a ton of support. They only get three for the last.

Three years, only hold four thousand.

No, I think it holds five. And I know when they hosted the Crew in the Open Cup and got like sixty two hundred people there like five thousand.

You're right, it holds five thousand, but that's that is way too low for D one.

Oh no, I agree, I agree, and I don't know what you would be able to do, and I'd hate to make them move. But also one of my concerns is, you know I touched on it earlier, is where are these teams in this new Division one league going to be coming from. You're either going to have to pull them out of thin air or which I think is a recipe for disaster, or you're going to have to pull them out of the promote them, for lack of

The other one that I think absolutely could make it happen. Stadium wise, I don't know, but Tampa Bay because that's where the league headquarters are. Honestly, I would just find a way to play in Raymond James for a little bit while you get your stadium built. You could build. I think you would have to build a stadium on that spot. I don't know if al Lang has any protections. I have heard from several people in the Tampa Bay area that al Lang is already like you couldn't expand

Yeah, I think you got to expand out.

I mean if you look at like the League one, like Greenville Triumph, Charlotte Independence, they have their capacities, what sixteen thousand for Greenville and over ten thousand for Charlotte, Like like they're kind of on that line in terms of stadium size, maybe does I think there's the Omaha team. I think that they're on nine thousand, I think for their stadium. So like again the.

Baseball stadium, and I think we're trying to build a soccer stadium, but I'm not sure that's going anywhere.

So I think when you look at like what that is, you know it's you know, yeah, I mean you just you're grasping a lot here, right.

Like, like the minimum is twelve?

Do you want just twelve? Like, I mean it's kind of needs to be an even number, ideally.

Fourteen after the third year. So again, where are you getting that team?

Right? And I think that's the thing.

I mean, they may have it all mapped out right and have the plan in place.

Right.

If they did, they would have said what it was when they announced it.

Right, Because when you look at like, you know, you know the teams in the A A N A s L. I mean, you know, you know the team Atlanta, team in Carolina, they they had a couple of teams in Canada, San Antonio, Tampa Bay. You know they had some of these you know, areas covered for teams in general, and again, you know the I think Indie, you know, Indi India was you know, Indi eleven was part of that. Obviously they had one of the bigger stadiums, you know, at

It just, you know, it just doesn't make sense. I just can't.

I just can't see how they're gonna be able to do that and sustain it.

I do think there's a there are like three markets that I think have to be Division one if you're a USL, because you already own exclusively that market, Vegas at Detroit and Indianapolis. If you can get those to D one, you're not losing too. You can backfill that a little bit with USL because you do have some USL teams coming in, championship teams coming in. But Vegas to me is like I know, MLS is one of

Well the Mirage is gone.

Oh that's right, sorryo stadium.

My mom my mom opened the Mirage back in ninety one.

Uh you know the wind they got the damn sphere. Oh you know, find a casino that can go to there. You know, Treasure Island Stadium at cashman Field. I don't know they got money at the gang there. So Vegas to me is a market you have to pull up to Division one because it is a Division one city at this point in time. Detroit is another one. I think from a city standpoint, it's I hate large MSA. It's the fourteenth largest MSA. So here's here's an intre.

Right.

USL actually exclusively has four of them already. You're looking at Phoenix, which I think we all agree has to be the You can't let mls go into Phoenix, San Francisco, Oakland because technically where San Jose plays is a whole separate MSA. But that's another question.

For US It's all Bay.

Area, Yeah, Tampa and what was the other one?

Detroit?

Oh and Detroit is fourteen. So yeah, there's I think you got to pull those up from a just a you got to have a large city base to justify it. Let's talk expansion though. So Thomas, this is a question. You kind of said, we got to go outward. Here's my question to you. Do you think that USL Division one would be smart to go into a market like New York, Chicago, LA.

I mean, they're almost going to have to do that, right. I mean, there's no price right venue.

You know, you can maybe a venue if they want it. I'm just location, But I mean I think that's part of it.

They're gonna have to pull.

They're gonna have to They're gonna have to be smart about it in some respects. But they're gonna have to take risks on the on the other side, because they're clearly invested in doing this, and so you're gonna have to they have they've got to have some of those bigger markets in mind, and I just don't know.

How you compete with it.

I mean, you got New York's got two teams Ali's got two teams Chicago. I mean, you know, again there's there's volume there, but I I just don't know how you ramp up the interest of the Lawrence's point, like when you look at it, you're like, well, Major League Soccer.

And then YOURSL Championship, Like there's just.

Again they just I think they're biting up more they can chew with that, and I think you have to find the pockets of those markets and and fill in there. If if you look at the United States and I'm also the map for the MLS, I mean, they've got the markets covered and maybe San Antonio is one you could bridge, you know, I mean, do you go to Canada maybe, I mean maybe that there's an opportunity for.

I don't know if you're getting that with the CPL now if that's well legitimate league, but right.

I mean that's I I don't know, like they're gonna have to get a little creative with with you know, some of those those other markets and and kind of on the fringe of that because I.

Here's here's here's another problem is that what you know you're gonna have to pull from the USL Championship for this new D one league. Who you're putting in the USL Championship, You're gonna have to expand there right now.

There are expansion teams that are supposedly coming in.

Well, I know Lexington just moved from League One to the championship, so you have.

Somewhere brook Lyc, but that could just become your USL Division One team in New York. I don't know Jacksonville, which unless they get a real stadium, which doesn't look like it's going to happen, they're going to be championship. Santa Barbara, which technically has a fifteen thousand seed stadium, could be in there. I don't know.

I don't Santa Barbara is what was formerly known as Memphis.

Nin Sorry, Milwaukee, Ozark, Buffalo, and then rumored Iowa Palm Beach in Dallas. Now they've also rumored I think a Fort Worth team at some point. So I get your point, but I think there are teams that would be more willing to take it. But some of those teams i'd say need to be in Division one. Buffalo, Brooklyn, those are your Those are your Division one teams. In my opinion, Lawrence is frustrated.

If you yes, I think this whole thing is stupid, and I think it will fail, and you know, you also have to to wonder if it actually gets off the ground. USL has has thrown a lot of big ideas out there over the years, and how many of them have actually happened.

Let's talk about the big one. Let's talk about it. We're going into it. Here we go. How long Lawrence has USL floated, Oh, we might do prorail. Oh we're gonna.

They've They've been doing it at least since I started covering Memphis nine on ONEFC in twenty nineteen, so that's six seven years.

So what is stopping USL from doing pro rail right now?

I'm not sure, I mean exactly unless there's some sort of like stadium requirement for the teams below that it's not right because it because you could do it right, because I mean, again, you're gonna have bigger I mean, largest point is the same five teams are gonna be there, just like they are everywhere else in the world. Right, the same five teams are there. They'll be there, right and then you can just mix in because that is

Yeah.

That that that I think people can grasp onto as supposed to saying, well, you know they're gonna be in Division one. You know, I don't know, like you already have it built, like like refine it, you know, balance the teams a little bit more. You're gonna have more teams than fourteen in that second that second division of USL, I think, but you know they've got one hundred and forty some odd teams in the in the third one.

But you have to figure that out.

That is that is a legitimate actually thought though I think Thomas is sorry, we're derailing a little bit. But if you move some of your USL Championship teams up to prem I'm just calling it the premiership now. It's too easy. That's what it's gonna be called.

Sorry.

That is, you move some League one up to the championship some of the League ones, Like I think if you get Omaha Stadium, that could happen. There are teams that could do it. You're gonna move some D two teams up, you know, you're just going to And some of those are not like a lot of D two teams are by no shape like at all, you know, professional. Some of them might find interest in that, you know, if they if they have a decent run. But anyway, Yeah,

I don't know why either.

I mean, I just think that there's there's a thirst four in this country, and I think you're gonna pull a big group of people who are kind of fringe on males fans. Right the games are on. Maybe I'll watch it, Maybe I won't like to like to do that piece of it. As I said earlier, mols is not going there. That is that's the uniqueness you have is to do that piece of it. And that's not gonna cast you that much of anything.

Yeah, you could do it this season.

And and and the thing about it is like, oh I lost my train, thought damn, well, I kinda say I forgot oh my no, But like this, like you've talked about it for years, the infrastructure to do it is already there. I if the whole reason that you're floating this new Division one league so we can do pro rail. I don't buy that, because you've already had the setup to do pro rail as long as as

I don't know if any we've got.

We already have two Division one leagues in this country, and the USL is involved in one of those, and it's going every bit as poorly as you would expect itself.

Well, that's a great question. I've found stick figures of centers figures for USL Super League, which is the now rival for NWSL. The largest attendant average attendance for the league is Carolina Ascent at forty eight hundred. Now that has floated by their high attendance being ten thousand, the highest they they know that that was just their opening game and their stadium homes t thousand. It's a nice stadium. They renovated it out just east of Charlotte. It's still

But you did it.

Do it, you passed on it. You have a women's league that doesn't that is what I think they call it pre professional, so you don't even have a professional women's league. But you decided to go for D one right off the bat instead of a Division two league. And it's not it's only it's only half of the season, so I'm not going to cast wide dispersions on it yet. But it's not like it's going well. And the reason is I don't watch much of it. As good as the product isn't as good as n WSL.

You also have to take into account that most of the with the exception of maybe Portland and at Portland, Oregon and Kansas City current well, not even Kansas City.

Current well angle Angel City.

Is Angel City. Most of most of the teams in the NWSL draw would be middle of the table in the USL Championship. So were given people something that nobody asked for and that nobody needed. And then here the USL is again attempting to give people something that we didn't ask for and we don't need, Thomas.

If this happens, we're gonna have forty two top flight teams in this country.

Uh.

The real question is can this league be successful and if so, how or why not?

I mean, they have to They're gonna have to learn from the mistakes of the n ASL. I I can't say that, but they're gonna have to learn from the mistakes that that that league had for the eight seasons it was there and figure out how they're going to generate talent, interest, all these things and be able to continue growing the league in an already saturated country in terms of where things are and what the requirements are. So I just I don't see any way forward to that.

Right, So at some point you just you're at saturation.

Well the only real way when the only real way that you're making money is expansion fees, you can't really afford to stop expanding.

Now, can you.

Right, And then that's a little bit of a flaw of how it is in general, Like at some point they've got MLS has to figure out really what they are like that right now they're riding on the messy you know, the messy UH money right that he's bringing into the league, which is, you know, don't find a smart move. But when he goes and what does that where does that leave? It drops their interest down drastically. So and so those are the things that I don't think USL is going to be able.

To pull in.

They're enough players two to pay them and wellst can't even do that typically right, So how is USL gonna be able to pull in the talent to draw that interests? Again, go back to I think they have a niche where

But not now, Lawrence will let's be successful.

I'm happy with that. No, not happening. This is going to be I mean, this is going to be like, there's going to be documentaries made about what a disaster this is. You know, Netflix will have one, Amazon will have one, Apple will have one, Hulu will have like that. Everybody's gonna make a documentary like who killed the USL D one league? Nobody?

It was.

It was stupid, it was unnecessary, They didn't need it. They And here here's another thing. This is something that has just now occurred to me as we've been talking about this. I believe this new new league is gonna fail. And if you pull all the successful teams out of the USL championship, like you're imperiling those other leagues when this one league fails, like it's it's almost gonna be I think a domino effect unless uh, the USL champion, the USL just goes Now you can go back to

I really thought we were done with this and in US soccer landscape. And I don't mean that in a bad way, because it felt like after the NASL thing and USL came around. USL feels like, and this is why I'm with you. I don't understand why they're doing it.

I don't know.

I think one thing, we're we're all discussing this like it's a done deal, like it's happening. I think we still have to wait for US Soccer to approve this correct and so you know, I've been yelling and screaming about everything wrong with US Soccer for the better part of a decade. Here's what I'll say. I really like I'm starting to like the attitude and the rhetoric coming out of US Soccer the last year.

Oh you know now that JT, Cindy and Matter are all working together with like Copdent people's copy soccer people.

Making you know, making good coaching hires on both the men's and women's sides. A lot of the messaging that JT bats and has been has been sending out as far as you know, we want to make all these games big events, this this. You know, there's a lot of they d sanctioned NISA finally, which was which, which

Yeah, Because I think Barbara brings up a good point to it.

This isn't good for the This isn't good for the game, like for it to fail, because you don't want to fail in the market, right, You don't want.

To lose the team, right you.

You know, you need to figure out ways to keep the teams that are where they are and figure out how we're going to sustain that because again you've lost teams either because they've moved, m lost, next folded, whatever it is, Well, Okay, some moves are fine, but like figure out how you're going to sustain and hold what you have to again, create that pyramid, create a three tier pyramid, right, and then use pro reillm there and then work from that for a competitive team that maybe

Is you know what ends up happening.

All Right, gentlemen, we have talked for almost an hour and a half about this thing that may or may not happen because, you know, to be fair. Also, the as Lawrence points out, the us soacras to approve it, and they say, we have plans to launch, and that is not the same as we are launching. We don't know which clubs are going to be part of it.

The closing thought is that while I appreciate what they appear to understand is the importance of capitalizing on hosting a World Cup in this country, not just the World Cup, but you know, stuff this year and then the Olympics and all that, all this high level soccer. I appreciate that they are trying to do something to capitalize on it. I just think this is not at all a good idea to go about it in this way, with this thing. And I I've said it before and I'll continue to

Support that for you, Thomas, I'd love to hear your final thoughts on this whole matter as well, if you have them.

Yeah, I mean I probably never happened, but you never know. I meant the collaboration that doesn't exist between MLS and USL, to me, I think is where this whole conversation is lacking.

I think there is a past there.

It's, you know, in some form of fashion that we can have the best of both worlds and maybe find that again, find that uniqueness that SL has a capitalize on that and allow that pro real to exist and then maybe in some respects you can have the best of both worlds between the two leagues and they can share that and maybe at some point if Emma Lots can figure it out, you know, maybe they can jump into that into that fray. But it's, uh, it's it's interesting to talk about for sure, But.

Well, I appreciate both of you gentlemen, joining me on this episode tonight. You can follow Lawrence himself on Twitter at l DOC ninety three. You can also follow the Memphis nine not Memphis nine one, the nine on one Soccer podcast sorry on Twitter as well and Bluff City Media. Also, this first time I've talked to you in persons that you got married, and congratulations on that, sir.

Thank you. I appreciate that it was one month today as a matter of fact.

Wow, congratulations. I hope the honeymoon period is still going well.

Oh.

Absolutely good to a man who's been married a little bit longer.

Yeah, quite, I've been on my I've been I've been with my wife.

For thirty years in uh in October, married for twenty in October, so and I'm only forty five. So we've been uh together since high school.

So it's amazing.

Actually, yeah, it's it's good stuff, but it's it's you know, there's work involved, and and I appreciate the time that she allows me to do my passion and love for soocker.

So it's always great being here.

Thanks well, yes, thank you both for being here. You can follow Thomas on Twitter at us Keeper. You can follow this show on Twitter and Blue Skuy at soccer for us pod. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Mark, I'm

And