Steve, I have a friend who reached out to me recently and we were talking about this podcast and he said to me, you know, I don't know if I'm doing enough in recovery or was questioning that. And I have question that myself. And my immediate response was, Are you sober? And he said, yes.
right,
And my immediate response is, you're doing enough. But with the. Without ending the podcast. Now, 54 seconds in,
the right?
I think there's more to a topic than that because I have felt that way and I am sure you listening feel that way. And if I were to poll people in an AA meeting, I would mention I probably 90% of people are going to say, Well, I don't feel like I'm doing enough
Yeah.
unless you're going to seven meetings a week, twice a day. So what does that look like? Have you can you identify with that feeling? Am I doing enough in recovery?
Oh, I definitely identify with it. And I think most people in our program of recovery would feel that way. And again, it's it's it's really a strange question because our primary purpose is to keep our self. So, you know, we talk about a
Mm
primary
hmm.
purpose, but it's to keep our self self sober. Right. To to make sure that we're doing everything we need to do to keep ourself away from that first drink and all those things that come along with it. So when you ask that question to your friend, that's a good question. Are you sober? So on that level, yeah. You're doing you're doing enough because you're keeping yourself sober. The flipside to that is that again, in our program, in the 12 step program, part of that program is reaching out and
helping others. So
Yes.
that's where I think it comes in to the fact how am I doing now? Enough on that part of my program, right? I'm doing enough to keep myself sober because let's face it, I talk about it like I have guys who I have sponsors, that's what I call them, because they are who I took through the steps. I spent probably a couple of years with this guys, these guys who, for whatever reasons, they don't do meetings anymore. They are sober. They seem to be
well-adjusted to their life. I don't have any questions about that, and I have no judgment about how much how much program they need. Okay. So that's fine. But I know that I'm called to give back because for me, for my for my program, the big part of it was that I needed so much help. Right? I needed so much help and I had so much stuff to fix that I feel like it's a debt that I can only try to repay, right? Because this change, this whole program has changed my life in ways that I would never
have foreseen, foreseen. So I feel like I always got to give back more. And that's why I think you'll get that thing like, Hey, I don't feel like I'm doing enough. Because that part of your program now, if somebody says, I'm not sure I'm doing enough, and because I'm not acting, you know, appropriately, then that's a whole nother story. Right. That's a
I
whole.
don't think
No.
that's where he was coming
Yeah,
from.
I don't think so either.
I
Probably.
think it was a case of feeling less than.
Yeah.
I don't think it was the latter. I think it was being inferior.
Well,
And I think that's that's a common thing with people in recovery.
right. And listen, it's like, again, part of our recovery and again, I don't know how some of these other programs work, you know, some of these online stuff, some of these groups that we talk about. I don't know how they work. Right. Maybe if you join one of these, you know, one of these podcasts or whatever it is, and you're paying a $30 a month and you have this community, maybe you don't owe anything to anybody else. Maybe that's your gig,
right? You just do it. You show up, you do your stuff and you know, Oh, that's not how AA works, right?
No.
AA relies on sober alcoholics giving back to the community. So that's where we get in this. You know, I've been we've we talked about it a little bit last week about maybe trying to find some new meetings and stuff like that. There's always an opportunity to give more and there is a balance. We talk about it and that's the other thing. There's a balance and sort of maybe Dusty subtitled this of this little this podcast is
Oh,
am
I
I,
hadn't thought about that.
am
The balance.
I, am I
You're
doing
right.
enough? And is this, you know, do I need to balance it? Like, do I do I need to figure something out? You know?
That's a really great way to phrase it. The balance piece. I kind of want to come back to that. Here's what is a big driver for me, is I compare myself to other people.
Yeah.
I will look at the crusty old timer who goes to seven meetings a week and has 20 sponsors at any one time. Mm hmm. And if I'm not doing that, am I doing it wrong? I'm not hosting a Joe and Charlie at my house. Am I doing it wrong? Should I be? What is the minimum amount of meetings I should go to? And if I don't hit that, that number, I'm not doing recovery the right way. And I think that's where it comes for me, is I'm comparing.
Yeah. I don't. I think we all know and I shouldn't say we all. I think some of us do that. And it's easy to look at these guys who have found a way in their in their life to really give a lot to the program and even talks about that in our literature. Right. It says some of us will be able to devote a lot of time, you know, I'm paraphrasing to this and others will not be able to do that. So I look at some of the people who we both know can devote a lot of time. They're really, really,
really called to service. Right. And there's a lot of people
Yes.
out there, right? There's a lot of people out there called to service. Right? We've talked about the GCR meetings and stuff like that. And I see just for the little bit of time that I've been in there, the guys who seem to just move from one position to the next position, sometimes more and more responsibility, sometimes sort of a lateral move, whatever it might be. But they're called to service like they, they, the part of their program is to
serve in that capacity. And that's part of how they stay sober and give back. I easily can look at those guys and look at myself and go, Oh man, I doing shit. I'm not doing anything compared to these guys. Right? It's easy to look at that. All right. You hear Chip, right? You hear the old timers like Chip talk about, Oh, he's been to five or six or whatever. It's been international conventions, right? He's been all over the place.
He's you know, he's been to these places where, you know, there's thousands of people in the crowd.
Mm hmm.
So it's easy to look at people like that and go, man, I don't do any of that. Right. I've been sober enough that I could have gone to one or two of those. There's one coming up in 2025. I've been talking about it. I've been thinking about going. I mentioned to my wife, Will will I go? I don't know. Well, we'll find out if I call or not. So. But it's something I'd be interested in taking a look at.
We've talked about Shep a bunch of times on this podcast, and maybe I'll have the balls to ask them on someday. But today I don't, because he can be a little crusty with certain things. But Shep is the old timer who is in his seventies, has been sober for decades, goes to seven meetings a week, goes to the same meetings every single week. So he's got his Friday meeting and he's got his he has he's this guy who's gone to a Tuesday meeting for 20 years and is not part of the group
Right?
because he never put his name in the group and he doesn't go to the business meeting. So he's not part of the group, but he has gone to that meeting for 20 something years. Every single week. He's that guy. He's also a guy who doesn't have a family. He's Mm hmm. single. He doesn't have kids. He's retired. That is a tough comparison
Right.
to say. I was a drunk. Gary and I enjoying meeting every night. Well, I also do have a family and I have young kids and I have
Yeah.
a demanding job that
You know.
makes
Yeah,
it more difficult to meet that high standard.
it absolutely does. It absolutely does. And I look around the table like, I know, you know, I go to fairly the same meetings. I branch out here and there, but, I mean, I could look around and there are a bunch of guys in this program who. And women, too. I shouldn't say just guys, but I know women too, who don't have kids. And I don't know what
Mm hmm.
that is. I don't know what that says about alcoholics, but it seems to be and I don't know, maybe maybe it's just society again today. There are less people having or there are
Well,
more.
I know a guy at the Monday meeting who makes up for that, and I think
Yeah.
he.
Yeah. It was just over my house that I actually
Yeah.
stopped. Stopped by to look at a couple of windows. So anyway, but. But I do think there's more people not
Mm
choosing not to have children. Right? It's
hmm.
not a totally new phenomenon. But so you do have those type of people. You have those people who no kids, whatever, and they have lots of lots of time. Maybe they work a job, maybe they're self-employed and they seem to have that. But I will tell you this, that's not the only thing that makes them available. Right? That they really again, they're drawn to do that. Cause I know plenty of people who work jobs and do it and they're still drawn to help other alcoholics. I know a guy
who was on retreat with me. I know this guy. He works two jobs to like full time jobs pretty much. Yet he brought up three spouses with him. Right. And this is a guy who is out there, does a lot of work. And I'm talking about New sponsor. He's like, one guy was maybe just over a year. The other two guys had months, you know. So, yeah, he he just believes in the program and he believes in giving back to the program. And they find a way to do that. You know?
God bless them. That's difficult for me. I am. I am trying not to make this sound like excuses. There's a lot going on. Like just the volume. Last. Last night was the last night of club volleyball on Wednesday, which is Club volleyball day. Work starts at 830. I immediately leave at five to take him to volleyball. We're not home by nine.
All right.
That's a long ass day.
Yeah.
So I'm getting some serious time back, both on the weekends and during the week to some level. I mean, he's going to be playing volleyball, but that's. That's all local.
Right.
That's during the week. That's local. A lot of them are. I don't live far from the high school,
Yep.
but there's stuff like that. I'm being pulled in 20 different directions. When that picks up, the girls will then be in soccer. And so last last season we purposely chose club Times where the girls were practicing on the same night at the same time. And at the last minute the town said, Guess what? Girl one is on one field on this side of town. GIRL two is on this field on the other side of town. Totally blew up. Our plan
Yeah.
made it more difficult than if we'd picked different times. But there's stuff going on, So then it becomes I'm. I'm managing my calendar with a lot of the stuff.
Yeah. Plus, you have a wife who travels on occasion for work,
Yes,
right? Which puts you
she
at home.
does.
So. So, you know. Yeah. So those. Those are just the things of life. And, listen, I know I've been to enough meetings with you. Right. We go to the Monday night meeting, we do this. I know that you're available to help people if somebody needs help, whether
Absolutely.
that's true, whether through a phone call or whether it's through sponsorship. If somebody were to ask you, I don't
Yes,
think there's any question that if somebody came up to me and said, hey, I'm looking for a sponsor, I like what you said, would you be my I think you would do that and
absolutely.
you would and you would fit that person in and you would find the time within
Mm hmm.
your schedule to do that. So. So. So some of that is just opportunity, especially when you talk about sponsorship. And we you know, we talked a little bit about that. I did a lot of that in the past and I seem to have less opportunities to do it now and maybe less drive to do it now. And I'm not sure like the same thing. If somebody came up to me and said they wanted me to be their sponsor, I absolutely would would consider it would
get together with them. And if we if I thought we fit as a as a couple, if you would, and we thought I could help this person, absolutely I would find the time. And that's what I've always told people. I'll find the time because I sponsor two guys, like two new guys at one time where, you know, I was meeting with them both once a week, one guy twice a week, like I was having three meetings a week with your sponsor. He's taking them to
steps and doing some stuff. So I'll always find that time and might have to be early in the morning. One of them was very early in the morning because we were both early hours and the other one was, you know, a little bit later. So we find the time. And I do think that part of this is comparing ourself and
Oh, yeah.
it's that whole thing of I think some of it is the guilt. Like we both you know, we both have gotten we talk about it all the time. We both have gotten a lot out of this program,
Yep.
out of getting sober, out of the help we've gotten from this program, out of, you know, our former partner, John, opening up his house to do Joe and Charlie's four
Yep.
years going up there in those small groups. So, you know, we get a lot of that kind of stuff. And I think we do we look at it and go, well, I'm not doing that right. I've never hosted anything at my house and I haven't
Mm hmm.
hosted anything at my house either. I've talked about it. I've sort of offered it. it's never happened. So it's easy to look back on that and think that somehow because that's never happened, I'm failing and that's unfair.
I also am always afraid that the people I put on a pedestal, which the old timers will tell you don't do that is they're looking down on me that they're going
Yeah,
to point a finger at me and say, You're not doing enough. Those people who I do respect. And that is something that bothers me on the inside, where if I go to a meeting I haven't been to in a while, I'll get the finger wag and not the good natured ribbing of you don't even belong here anymore because you're not doing enough.
Yeah,
And that that goes through my head. And I have to say that out loud, because if I say it out loud, it's insane.
yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, there's this are people who think like that, but I think there are few and far between and
I avoid those people.
Yeah, well I think and I mean if you go, you know if you show up at a meeting that you haven't been to in a while, in a meeting you used to go to some of those people may be in that meeting, but for the most part, people are going to be happy to see you. Right. That's
Yeah.
just justice plan. So they're going to be happy to see you. And if you decide to come back to that meeting, they're going to be happy to see you. You know, we may have talked about this, but I go to a Friday night men's meeting that was sort of that has split from a meeting. And there was some some bad feelings with that split. And six months ago or so, I decided I was going to go back to the other meeting and I wasn't sure if I was going to be
welcome right. Because I was one of the guys who got involved with this whole thing. And some of the guys at the other meeting made it clear that they weren't happy with me. But it was an AA meeting and I went, You know something? I'm a little stubborn and I'm like, If it's an AA meeting, then I could go show up. And the truth is, I walked in there and the guys who I thought may be problematic,
And
if you will, or happy to see me came up to me. Talk to me. Glad to see you. So maybe I was just making a big something out of nothing. Right? And I've been to that meeting a couple of times since and it's been nothing but good, and I wish I could go to it more, but it conflicts with my home group and my Friday night. So. But I do try to pop in there once in a while just to see two guys and a bunch of guys. I know a bunch of guys are like bunch of guys who helped me a lot throughout my
sobriety. So yeah, I think we could all do, you know, make make a big deal out of something that's not a big deal.
there is. If you're not familiar with this, if you're brand new, a lot of meetings are started on the basis of a resentment that is something stupid that happens, that splits a group, and they start a new meeting. So the silver lining on this particular meeting is now there are two AA meetings on either side of town. At
Right?
that time there are two meetings instead of one.
Right.
That's always a good thing.
And they're both really good meetings, right?
Yes.
And that's the whole thing. They're both really good meetings. So and I've told people that, like, I'll say, hey, you know, right, we're in the same town. It's the same almost the same exact meeting. And I've told people, hey, you know, we're at this meeting. This is where we are. There's another meeting in town. And if you go to that meeting, you're going to like that meeting, too. Like I never you know, I'm not trying to sell my meeting, but it's like, yeah, go. Go where you want to
Do
go?
you?
Go. What fits? You know?
I used to have feelings around. Well, this is a good meeting. And this is a bad meeting. Meetings being good are all based on your perspective.
Yeah, absolutely.
What works for me may not work for you.
Yeah.
I mean,
Oh,
there
I don't
are some meetings that I've heard of or seen that I haven't felt were the best. But for the most part, every meeting is good and it's good for somebody. It may not be the thing for me, but it might be right for you.
you know, I used to say that about the recovery club. That's up by me. And I used to go there and go, You know something? I don't like that place I saw. God, I'm like, it's not me. The the people that are going there, blah, blah, blah. It's two people move around too much with too much
It
transient
has a perception
people, right?
for
And
people in the and it has a perception of its low bottom.
right. And I remember coming to that Tara's one day, I said, you know something that's all about me,
Yes.
because a lot of people love that place. A lot of it has gotten a little helped. A lot of people get sober. A lot of people go to that place on a regular basis and it works for them. So if it doesn't work for me, it's not a there it's not a meeting problem. It's a me problem, right? It's like, oh, that meeting doesn't work for me, but it works for other people. You know, if a meeting doesn't work, then the meeting will die on its own right.
Yep.
People will stop going to it and it'll died, you know? And that's why a lot of times I'll see the people like, Oh, we need support, We need support. And I get it right. People meetings do. And sometimes you go and ask for support and sometimes you can you can bring the meeting back up. But there I have been to some meetings where I'm like, I don't like this meeting. There's some structural things I don't like about it. For instance, there's a big book meeting that
I went to for years. I went to a little literally a solid two years because I like to have a third meeting, and that was my third meeting for a while. And it's a big book meeting and I already do a big book meeting. But what this group does is they read from the first page to the last page of the big book and the thing I don't like about that is when you get to the stories, there's 39 stories.
Yeah.
That means you're in the stories for 39 straight weeks and I'm like, Yeah, I don't like to do a big book meeting. I want that 164 you know, I want the first part
I
of that book,
agree with you.
and that's fine. Like I said, there were people who like that meeting and they went there and they supported that meeting and that's fine. And I did it for a couple of years and I took chairman, I made coffee, I took I did everything. But after a couple of years, I'm like, yeah, that that meeting doesn't work for me, you know, because I don't like to structure that meeting.
I will tell you, on top of anything, there's the structure things. I would say the biggest part are who goes
Yeah.
if if it is a good crowd in good sobriety, that can almost always overcome the format
Oh, absolutely.
with the exception for me is I can't make a speaker meeting in my home group. I do. And it's a weird thing because in the podcast industry, like sober podcasting, a lot of this is about telling your story. And I've gone on other podcast and told my story a bunch of times. I don't really like hearing other people's stories
No,
in a meeting because it sounds like it's the same thing over and over again. Or what could be the thing that's most off putting to me is I hear you're drunk a log, and then you say, And then I got sober and that's the end
Yeah,
that really makes me want to beat my head into the desk. And that's okay, because there are some people who love that. Just because it's not my thing doesn't mean it's bad.
no, I agree. There's people who love speaker meetings and that might not mind speaker meetings. No. Great. For me when I want to do a meeting, I just want to do something and
Mm hmm.
I don't want to work. That's why I put like, I don't want to think. I don't want to have to work. I know I'm going to go there. I know for whatever it is, a half an hour or 40 minutes, somebody is going to talk. Maybe they're going to open up some time for some questions, especially if it's not my meeting. I don't feel obligated to say anything. I could just go there and be part of that meeting and and chill out. That's that's how I like my
speaker meetings. I true, I too wouldn't, you know, wouldn't want to have one be a regular, be a home group or even a regular meeting for me. I would just get tired of hearing, you know, speaker after speaker, you know, four or five times a month just a again, there's plenty of people who like that. It's just not
Yeah.
my thing.
There's some people who don't like literature all the time.
Right?
I have to tell you, I am much more interested in literature meetings, even more than like, a discussion meeting. Like, a discussion meeting is great, but to me, it can devolve. You throw a topic out there, it ends up devolving into Mm my problem. hmm. And so I like them better than than speaker meetings. But I like the I like the structure of a literature meeting. I know it to expect. And you almost have to discipline myself even.
I can talk about what's going on with me if it's necessary, but I have to discipline myself to try and share something about what's in that reading. How can I tie in my life to this reading? And for me, that takes some work. But I like that and I can learn something from that. And I see this around the different type of meetings because part of the work is empathy, and I have to empathize when I go to a place like a recovery club or Pathfinders, where I see people who live and look in in a way
that's not like me. They come from a different world. And it is a reminder that these people who have less than me are not any different.
Yeah.
They just are in a different circumstance. But they have the same disease. It just so happens I have more. But I might have ended up in a sober house with nowhere else to live after that. If I drank long enough, and if I drank long enough in this progress long enough, I would be irresponsible enough to end up in a sober house thinking, Where am I going to live after this? And that's the reality with some people. And fortunately, that's not mine.
Yeah. We're both fortunate in that. And yeah, I'm fortunate enough that I've been around long enough and you've been around long enough, too, but that I've been able to get to that point. We would just like you. Like you said, I have not even empathy. Like I go to a meeting and I'm able to go to that meeting and not compare
circumstances to me. I'm go I'm able to go to a meeting unless they start whining about their circumstances, then it gets but I'm able to go to a meeting and listen to how they suffered from alcoholism and
Yes,
how that impacted their life. And there is no question, no matter where you are, whether you have more money or less money than me, that when you start telling your story and how alcohol impacted your life, something in there is going to ring a bell for me. I'm going to go, Yep, I did that. Yep, I felt that way. So I'm able to do that
today. And the other thing, like you said, listen, I had a sponsor who, just like me, you was married, had a wife, a loving wife, had kids, had grandkids who drank himself into a place where he had to go into a program and then go to a go to a sober house. And he was in his fifties. And and I mean, he had a house. He had a pool in his backyard and in he ended up at a place where, you know, he needed to go for 30 days or whatever it was to get his shit together. humbling for sure.
absolutely.
And I remember talking to him, right? We would talk about it and he'd like, you know, guy guys are half my age. Like, these are all the guys, the 20 year olds or 30 year olds coming out of rehab, coming out of this, like, and here this guy is, you know, mid-fifties and there listen, that's out there for me and you still today.
Mm hmm.
It is. It's out there. I can I can drink that way. I can. I know I can. Hopefully I don't ever have to, but I know I can, which is why, you know, I make sure that I do what I need to do. And and that's and I guess that's one of the other thing. It's good that I question, am I doing enough? Right. That's
Mm
the
hmm.
other thing. I might say it's good that I have that question because that's always challenging me to look at, Are you doing enough? Do you need to do more? Do you need another meeting? Do you need to reach out more? Are people not asking me to be the sponsor because I'm not making myself appear that I want to, You know, like that? It makes me question some of those things, you know,
Yes.
So. So it's always good to have that question and do a little work on it and say, Yeah, maybe I do enough or yeah, I can do a little bit more. But you're right, I'm sober today. I'm doing enough. And that part of my life, which means that it's a good success for me,
I would say the question to ask yourself and this is this is a great place to wrap things up for the podcast today. The question is not necessarily am I doing enough? The question should be, how do I feel?
right? Yeah.
And if I'm
Good.
not feeling so good, that's the trigger for me of I need to do something more. I recently started going to therapy again because I could tell my mental state was not in a great place. October 2023 was a bad time, a bad and very dark time for me. There was works and fortunately, and maybe it's because I had that low moment that I was able to change things careerwise and lo and behold, with that, I'm in a much better place. But I was in a bad place. I needed to go back to therapy.
I wasn't in a good place. And if you are going downhill, doing enough means a lot of things that could be more meetings, could be more phone calls to people. It could be therapy, it could be going to see a medical professional and look to see, is medication something you need to do? There's a lot of things if you are happy, healthy and free, and a drink is the last thing you're okay. That doesn't mean don't push yourself to do more. You know, you can always
challenge yourself to do more. I don't think you have to kick your own ass if things are in a good place. And you know I'm in that place where I don't think about drinking to the point I feel grateful that I don't have that when I see other people needing to drink. I feel grateful that I don't feel that way anymore. So that tells me I'm in a good place. It doesn't excuse me for doing more, but it's a different, healthier attitude of I could do more and that would make things even
better. It could help somebody else that makes the positive as opposed to beating myself up, making it a negative.
Matt, I think you hit the nail on the head if you're uncomfortable, if you're feeling like you not doing enough, doing enough, then it means you got to take a look at that, right? That's what you're saying.
Mm hmm.
Like, you got to you got to take a look at that and try to figure out what that means to you. Like, why do you feel that way? Right. We talk about it all the time in this program that when we start feeling weird, we need to do some work. So that's a perfect way to wrap this up. If you
Yeah.
do have those feelings out there, take a look at it. If you're in our 12 step program, talk to your sponsor, talk to some guy, talk to some of your people and try to figure out what's making you feel that way, what's making you feel inadequate in that part of your life? And is it just a trance
Mm
from, you know, is it being
hmm.
transferred from another place? But it's a it's a really good way to sort of sum this up in and let people know like, yeah, there might be some work to be done.
Jordan, we'd love to hear from you. You always can email Matt at Sober Friends podcast. There's a link right on our website, Sober Friends podcast, or at Sober friends on Instagram or Facebook. For whatever reason, more people have been piling into Facebook recently, and I do like nothing other than copy over everything that goes into Instagram on to Facebook. But for whatever reason, I'm getting notices that, hey, you've got more Facebook friends, which in many ways baffles me, but I
guess it's a good problem. We you know, one of the best ways you can give us some feedback is write in Apple Podcasts by giving a review. But all headlines say what you like. Give us five stars if you believe that we deserve it. That is a great way. And we read all of this stuff and Steve will do it again next week.
Sounds good. Matt.
All right. And we will see you next week. Bye, everybody.