All right, Steve. Happy New Year. You know, we're in our fourth year of doing this show.
No way.
Yeah, we just had our third year in November.
Wow.
This will be the fourth year. Come next November. How time flies in. Thank you, everybody who listens to the show and get something out of it. Unbelievable. At time passes like that.
it really is crazy. If you had asked me, I would have never come up with, like, the fourth year. Absolutely not.
Well, we're talking a little bit about dry January. This
Hmm.
I've been really thinking about this for much of December. And I was listening to a podcast, the Next Level podcast, that's part of the Bulwark network and the publisher of the Bulwark, Sarah Longwell, talked about how she wants to do a dry January. And I've never really heard her talk a lot about drinking. And the other one of the other co-hosts, JBL, said, You know, why are you doing that? I might have one drink every six months. What's the issue? And I felt like screaming back at the
podcast. That's because you're a normal drinker. But
Yeah.
she identified that. You know what? I've got to I've got to dial it back and said, you know, I have a glass of wine every day with dinner. And I thought it was worthwhile for us to take our tradition around AA And what we do here for people who might be trying dry January, maybe for the first time, or maybe this is a yearly thing. And one of the ways that might trip be up for dry January are those damn cravings. Is that something that you had issues with? Do you still have issues
with cravings? Steve?
No, I don't have any issues with cravings these day that's sort of been lifted. Not. Not were physical cravings. Where I'm thinking about drink. I still get some mental and not even a craving, but I get mental ideas. I just shared this Friday night. I guess it was, that, you know, I was a big tequila drinker my whole life. And, and I still get the idea that, you know, that this idea and again, it's a fantasy because I never drank this way of sipping a
glass of tequila over ice. Like, I get that fantasy, like, Oh, that would be nice. And when I and if I let it linger long enough, like I could taste it, I could feel the warmth of it. Like I get those type of mental. I wouldn't call it craving, but some thoughts. And just because of who I am, I can't play with those type of things that long and I realize that I need to squash it pretty quickly.
No. Me neither. Tequila was something I liked, but it was one of those things that I gave up before I gave up drinking because it affected my mood. I
Yeah,
got angry
I did.
on tequila.
You? Yeah,
I found that there certain bruises that
right.
really didn't agree with you. And I found that I was getting really pissed
Yeah,
off after a margarita. So
yeah,
I decided to give that up. Not enough to give up all alcohol.
right.
Clearly, I just had to give up that alcohol.
Well, I did. Same thing with whiskey. Not to get off that track by the same thing. Like, I had some problems with whiskey early on and I sort of put together that probably happenstance, but like, the few times that I did get in trouble, you know, when I got arrested for a DWI and stuff, I had been drinking whiskey. And it seems like when I would would have a beer, something happened with with police, whether I mean, I wasn't arrested, but like when there were interaction with
police, right. For whatever reason. Almost all those times early on, I was drinking whiskey and I gave that up pretty early in my drinking. I was like, All right, I need to get away from that. I don't know if it really is true or whatever. But So anyway, I don't have cravings and I have physical cravings for sure. It's been, you know, spent 13 years since I had a drink more than that now. but yeah, I remember those cravings. I do. I mean, it's like it's been
Me
a lot.
too.
It's been a while, but I remember how they felt. And the truth is, what I remember is not being able to control those cravings, right? That was just a big thing for me. I mean, the difference is, is like, yeah, yeah, that first of all, I think the physical craving then becomes the mental obsession and sometimes it's other ways, but a lot of times it is like the physical craving then became like a trying to fight it off.
And then I'd have this mental obsession that, Oh, I got to, you know, I got to take it, I got
Mm
to take
hmm.
it, or I start lying to myself that it'll be different this time.
So for our friends who are listening and you've been sober a long time, we know in the Joan Charlie tapes, Craving equals I have alcohol in the body. And now that is manifesting a physical craving. I guess what we're really talking about, if you're going through that AA lingo, is the mental obsession, the feeling like I have to drink, but I don't have it in my body.
Right.
If you're brand new to this and you're just trying to give up alcohol that term of of craving goes hand in hand with the mental obsession.
Yeah,
I remember that. That I had that all the time. I had that and felt like I was doing something wrong because it wasn't going away. Like the old timer said that the obsession had been lifted and it wasn't lifted for me for quite a few months. And then for whatever reason, I remember driving by the liquor store and I didn't have I didn't feel like that was a place for me anymore. Almost like, you know, I'm not a kid anymore. There's nothing for me
at the toy store. And that was the big time that I realized the obsession had been lifted in that time. There were a lot of things that I found help get me through those cravings. So the first thing was it was sweets
Yeah.
eating a piece of chocolate. A Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. Bill talks about in the book that sweets can be helpful and there's there's research out there that says it's BS or it's or it's helpful or not. I know for me that having a piece of candy was enough to help me get through. What were some of those little things that you can remember that got you through?
is no question. I see. I think there is a reason for why sweets work, and that is because alcohol is sugar, right?
Yeah.
Alcohol is sugar. So when you take that out, I mean there's also we've talked about sugar cravings, I've talked about my own sugar addiction and stuff like that. So I think when when you replace that alcohol with a piece of candy, which is also sweet, I do think it takes care of some of it. Not all of it, because you don't you don't get the reaction. You don't get the effect of the alcohol when you eat a piece of candy. So you
don't get that aftereffect. But I think it helps you a little bit get through that early craving part. One of the things that always happened to me is when I would get sober is I would work out like so one of the things that would happen to me when I first got sober is if I was not feeling if I wasn't feeling well or I thought maybe, you know, I need to do something, one of my things would be to go work for me actually was run. I would run because I could do
that anywhere, right? I could be home and just go out for a run or I could go to the gym and were and go for a run or whatever. But that was it for me. Like I would do a lot of that and I would focus. I would take some of that, that energy that I had and I would focus it to running. And and again, this is one of the things when you're in AA and this is different from me now, I've talked about it, but early on I would pray, right? We talk about that like I would pray and ask for some relief
from that. that worked, you know, for whatever reason, i worked for me. Like, like if I prayed and I took some time to do that, I would feel some relief from it. again, in our program, the other thing is we talk about it all the time. We talk about community here, right?
Yup.
It's about having that community so that when you are really struggling that you can go and just talk to somebody who understands your struggle. Right? I could sit down. My wife and say, hey, I'm struggling, but she really won't get it. You know, she will understand it the way a person who suffers from alcoholism, the way I do would get it and understand it. And there's a lot of relief in that.
When you pick up the phone and you talk to somebody and like you just know that they understand what you said. There's a lot of relief in feeling some like, oh, I this this
That's
person gets it and you feel I feel better. I feel better when that happens.
this is really, really key. If you're trying to do a dry January, if you can do it with a friend, you're going to be much more successful in getting through the month. Any time that you're doing something hard, exercise is another thing. I'll go to the gym a lot more often because my son wants to go there every single day. He's a
All
maniac,
right?
but if I've got to drive him and drop him off and come home and pick him up again, it's a lot easier for me just to stay.
Yeah.
And now I have some level of accountability. Really the same thing when you're stopping drinking. And this is one of the huge benefits of AA is you have a built in community. That's just the way AA works is we get sober together because I couldn't do it by myself. I think there are great benefits now of things like the dry January app where you're kind of simulating doing it with somebody because you're reporting it on an app that's
really, really good. If you have somebody that you can talk to and hold yourself accountable, that in a moment when, hey, I'm really feeling like a drink. I don't know if I'm going to get through with a 2nd of January. That' going to help you,
Yeah. And that's why you have to have, you know, there's lots of different programs out there. We talk about it, and I know you and I are supportive of all the programs and any
of course.
way that you can get sober. It's a good way to get sober, whatever works for you. But if your meetings are are virtual, if they're online type of meetings and you go to one or two a week or whatever they might be, and that's your only communication. So maybe, maybe do some emailing, maybe that could work too. Then I think I just think that's hard in a pinch, especially in early sobriety. I think you like I think you need that instant at
times. Again, not all the time and not everybody, but at times you need that instant contact. I know I have in the past like and I know you have because you've called me like we just feel like you need to talk to somebody
Yes.
who understands. And the beautiful thing about having a real community and again, for us it's a for you could be something else is that I have a list of phone numbers in my phone. Okay. And I can call up all of any of these people. And here's the key. I always talk about it, especially like there's a whole bunch of people that I talk to regularly, right, Guys who are not worried about
their sobriety. Right. And that like, if I get a phone call from I realize it's probably just a chit chat or maybe some information, but if I get a phone call from somebody who I know and I don't speak to regularly, I take it in the middle of dinner,
Yeah,
in
me
the
too.
middle of anything, because I just want to and again, if it's just a chit chat, I may say, Hey, listen, I'm eating dinner. Can we talk a little bit later? But I take it because it may be that phone call that that person needs to talk to somebody? Because I've done that before. I've done it before. I just needed to talk to another person and there's always somebody willing to take my phone call.
So it's really huge to have some type of connection and some type of community that that you, you know, you can do that type type of thing. You know, that's that's how it worked for me. Again, other people may find different ways work for them, but that's how it works for me,
I don't have the issues where I call somebody where I'm thinking of a drink when I have an issue. Here's what it is. There's something else that's bothering me
right?
that it's really, really bothering. And it's acute. It has nothing to do with alcohol. But the reason I reach out is it's those things that I've discovered were the reasons that I would drink, that I would get pissed off at work, pissed off at a colleague, and my only outlet was to drink through it. Now I have tools. There are steps that help me that I can work through that ease the pain I've replaced, needing to drink with something else that gets me
through it. And part of what's in that toolbox is I'm not feeling good. I will call somebody, somebody else who's in the program because they may not identify with the specific person who's pissing me off right now, but they do know of being pissed off
right. And they do know of being pissed off and having used alcohol to sort of make that
right?
feeling go away. Right? That's what they know. You know, And this is this is what I would I would say. Right. Going back to the dry January thing, the question is and you talked about it, you're absolutely right. I mean, same thing as I don't call people today because I think I'm going to drink. I call people today because I have things bother me. And those are the things I used to drink over. That's right. So the connection, like just like I said, I have
tools now. So when I start feeling, you know, you know, I hit a head, hit a low point, I don't have depression usually, Like I'm not a clinically depressed person, but I over Christmas weekend, I felt depressed for like a day and a half really bad. And I recognized it as depression. And I'm able to call somebody up and talk to them about that, you know,
Yep.
and or I'm able to go to a meeting, which is what I did. I went and lately I'm, you know, I will share that kind of stuff at a meeting, but I'm able to do that. So getting back to dry January, my thought is like, if you are thinking about it, if you're thinking of trying it, one thing I would ask you is what's drawing you to a dry, dry January like
That's a great I've,
right?
I had that. I was on the tip of my tongue. I'm glad you brought that up.
Yeah. Like why? Just like you were talking about, you know, Sarah.
And
Like,
why did. Why does JBL not think that dry January should be a thing? What's the big deal? I have one drink and I can go six months.
right,
What? I have dry. Six months. What is it that you feel like you need to have a dry January for
And so if you're going to do that, then I would ask yourself, like, what? What do you think? You just, you know, because that's the start, right? I mean, I'm all for dry. Dry January is because
me
I
to.
think I think the key is like if you struggle with it, then I think that should be there should raise some flags for you. Right. Like if you get and trying to go dry January and then you're finding like, oh my God, I'm having a difficult time getting, you know, I'm two weeks in and I'm Jones And for a drink. You should. Be concerned about that
Yes.
and and and again it doesn't mean you're an alcoholic doesn't mean you need anything. I'm just saying it should just draw your attention to, like, yeah, maybe, you know, maybe this is the time to sort of cut back a little bit because there was a time, I think, for all of us and for many of us. And I think there was a time for me, I don't know, because I can't turn
back that time. But there was a time where I think that if I step, you know, if I, if I took my drinking more seriously and cut back and started to recognize that maybe it was getting out of hand, that maybe I could have stopped it, you know, on my own without all the intervention and all the help I needed. Again, I don't know if that's true or not, but it felt like I could have years before I came into this program.
This is funny because they're sort of related, but not related. I wasn't going to bring this up, but it's been on my mind. I'm really giving some serious thought to removing red meat from the diet.
Mm hmm.
And the reason I want to remove red meat is not because I don't like it. And it's not really a health thing. It's my daughter goes to the farm to two daughters. They one, they they're the horses and they ride the horses and clean the stalls. But there are two cows there. And my older daughter likes to do stuff with the cows, cuddle with them, take care of them, walk them. And part of this is she's still feeling the grieving over the horse that passed away last year.
Mm
She
hmm.
still is not ready to get back on a horse, but she loves these cows. And seeing how these cows will cuddle with her, they will give affection like almost like a
Mm
dog.
hmm.
And realizing these, it's not the same cow. Different breed of Calvert cows have a little bit more emotion than some other animals. I think chickens are really stupid animals,
Yeah .
but cows are not. And yet if I have a steak, that's what I'm eating.
Mm hmm.
And I don't feel good about that anymore.
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it is going down different road, but. But those are the things that we
But
can make. Changes
I
are,
bring
right?
I bring it
Yeah,
in of looking at why I'm eating something or
right.
drinking
Yeah, yeah.
and then what are the steps I would need to take if I want to give up eating me,
Yeah.
I need to have a programme of action where this isn't going to stop. It feels very much like alcohol.
think you would. I mean, been having eating it your whole life, I think it would be very different. Yeah, I mean, I've thought about that too. I actually have. I've thought about giving up. I've actually given up a lot of red meat. And again, I don't do it for that reason. I do a little bit for the health reason and I'll eat a little bit of it. I haven't torn it off, but but there are, you know, there is a program that you need to figure out whether you do that, whether it's
alcohol. And then you also, you know, touched upon the reason why you might want to do it. And like with what we just talked about, you know, the problem with alcohol is, man, when it goes bad, right? And this is the whole point when alcohol goes bad, you know, and I think I think most people I really do. I think most people today, maybe not most, maybe most is the wrong term. I think many people have been touched by alcoholism or alcohol
Mm hmm.
abuse like like there is there's there's no question. I mean, it's not a six degrees of separation, right. That little game. It's probably a maybe three degrees of separation. Right?
Right.
It may it may be a parent or it's an uncle or it's a sibling or it's a grandfather. Like it's pretty close to home that somebody or it's a close friend or there's somebody has struggled with it. So, you know, the disaster is right there in front of us all. Yeah, our whole society is based upon, you know, drinking and
Yep.
and everything we do and all the advertisements and all the fun. And there's not a there's not a thing. You're going to do this, this coming weekend that's not gonna for most people involve alcohol you know, for us it won't. you know for most people it's going to involve some sense of alcoholism. Oh, alc, I mean, so it really becomes a difficult thing. It really does. And, you know, I wonder if that's why dry January gets such a good kick is because. Right. People overdo it on the
New year on New Year's Eve. And they wake up January 1st and they go, Oh my God, I don't want to do that again, you know?
Right.
And they say that maybe I need to take a break from this.
Well, dry. Jan, there are people who just do it because they've heard the term dry. Jan
Right.
It's an actual thing that started about ten years ago with Alcohol Change UK, where the goal here is the mission statement is to try and change our relationship with alcohol, not necessarily just get everybody to quit alcohol, but
right,
there needs to be a change in the relationship that society has to alcohol and when people do a dry January, they tend to drink less afterwards, or if they have some type of month where they don't do it over time, they tend to drink less. People who have an underlying problem are probably not going to drink less. They may for a while, but you do. You're going to pick up where you where you left off, which I think is one of the great things about doing this, because you can learn a lot
about yourself. It could be, I just need a break and I need to clean up and I don't want to drink as much. And you can be successful there if you're finding you got through dry January and you just pick up where you left off and say, How did this happen? I had a month. Those are some signs that
Mm
it's worth
hmm.
looking at that your relationship may not be so good and slowing down may not work for you.
know, it's interesting. There's a you know, when we when we touched on this, I meant that I meant to check it out, But I've been getting some some ads on my social media feeds about a place out there that advertises drinking moderation. And I wish I remember that. So, you know, this place is and it may be an app. I think it is an app that they're pushing that helps you with drinking moderation. And, you know, that's really, really
helpful for some people. and again, I think if you can do something like that and you can moderate your drinking, I think that's great. I would say the same thing that you just said. If you come out of a dry January period and you immediately pick up or if you find yourself trying to make up for lost time,
Yeah,
like, like, like trying to drink more, like, oh my God, I can drink more now cause I didn't drink it. Like, if you find those type of habits creeping in again, there there are red flags. It may not be you know, it may not be over the line yet, but I really think, you know, there are red flags. I know my red flags, Right. I know what they are today. I didn't know. And then like, this is the whole point to like, I wasn't looking to see if I had an alcohol problem when when these
red flags occur occurred. But nowadays I look back on I'm like, oh, that should have that should give me pause. You know, that should have given me pause for concern. and it didn't it didn't give me pause. If it did, it was a very fleeting, fleeting moment. So if you know, again and if maybe if they had dry January back there and I thought maybe I needed to do that, maybe I could have looked at that before it got too bad
I
for
totally
me.
would have done it.
Yeah.
I'm all about apps, so if you
Yeah,
have like if you can gamify something like this, I'm all about it. This
yeah,
gamified not drinking. I love that. As a matter of fact, I wish AA had something as an app. I don't know what it would look like, but something like that around maybe the 12 steps in an app that gets you drawn in, I think that would be really beneficial. I'm throwing that out there and I can't figure out the details, but I think something in an app helps because that dry January app kind of walks you through and gives you motivation each day.
yeah.
if you don't make it through and you have a damp January, that's okay. If you find your back to drinking, that's okay. Because sometimes the change in your relationship with alcohol takes time
Mm
and you've got to figure it out. You haven't failed If you don't make it through, you haven't failed. If you think you have a problem and you start drinking again and you don't get it immediately, sometimes we have to figure those things out as long as you keep trying. So there is something I want to caution you with. If you're going to try a dry January, a lot of people don't want to talk to their doctor about their
drinking. But I think this is kind of a soft way in of, hey, I'm looking to improve my health. I saw this thing about dry January and I want to try it. What do you think, Doc? And the reason that you want to bring your doctor in is withdrawal from alcohol can be deadly. You could die if you have enough of a problem and enough of a dependency on alcohol. Or you could get very, very sick. So it's not something to be messing
around with. If you're making one of these changes, it's always good to bring your doctor in. And I know nobody who drinks too much wants to talk to their doctor about this, but it's really important and it may help you. They may be able to give you some advice.
Yeah. These days, I think doctors are more in tune to it than they were in the past. You know, it's one of the things I didn't do. I didn't share it with my doctor. I'm sure my doctor knew it. I always went to the doctor. I didn't avoid the doctor even though my drinking years. So I'm sure and I'm sure he talked to me about it. I don't remember him talking to me about it. I shouldn't say that.
I do remember a couple of times he would talk to me about my liver, liver enzymes going up and he would ask me about how much I drank, but I would never be honest with him. I would never talk to him about it. and,
Why ?
yeah, you know, I don't know. I guess part part of that was I was embarrassed. I mean, again, I don't want to go, but I was embarrassed that I was an alcoholic because it was one of those things I swore I never would become because I grew up
in an alcoholic family. So when I realized when I truly realized that I was an alcoholic and I knew that probably for the last three years of my drinking, like I knew I was an alcoholic who could not stop that, I was embarrassed by that, that I had gotten to that point after just swearing I would never get there. And I was embarrassed to let people around me knew. I really I led a double life, like I really worked hard not to be drunk in public and around family and friends, you know,
most friends. So I wouldn't be honest with my doctor. But today I think you can you can be a lot more honest with your doctor. I think they understand
Yeah,
it more. You know, they're they're part of the whole community of referring people. So I do think for for most doctors, you can do it and depending on your doctor. But they would help. They will help you navigate it. Right. And then and then you can have that conversation. And if you're going to have it, let's let's be honest. You need to be honest with them for
yeah.
the reason why you just said right is like you can you know, I would say that if you're drinking alcoholic li, your doctor probably knows that if you're telling them or not, like if you're going to the doctor, he probably knows it anyway because you could tell by the bloodwork. So he might know that, but yeah, you can get yourself in really in a really, really bad situation if you're not careful with it. It wasn't the case for me. I'm not sure why. And well, I think a little bit
wise. Like I said, I drank for a few weeks while I was still going to meetings and I, so I think I sort of tapered myself off, right? I didn't stop cold turkey. I stopped, but I still would drink a little bit here and there. And I think that sort of helped me with the withdrawals first time through
I definitely had withdraw after the fact. I wasn't going into delirium tremens,
right?
but I definitely had withdrawal symptoms and I didn't realize it. Those things were like anxiety, peak anxiety and just the need either for big balls, ice cream or booze. It
Yeah,
was sort of the same feeling. So something to think about. If you're trying to dry January and you have those feelings, Hey, look, we're here. We're here for you. We're not just here for the alcoholic has been in recovery for 15, 20, or 30 years. We're here for the new guy. And you know, in AA, you get membership for a desire to stop drinking, not being an alcoholic. Same thing here. If you want to change your your relationship with alcohol, this
is a place for you. We want to be able to help you and reach out, tell us how you're doing. All of the social media things threads Instagram, Facebook at Sober Friends Pond. The website is Sober Friends podcast. We would love it if you would subscribe to the newsletter and also give us a review on Apple Podcasts. It does help us have that two way conversation. Well, I know I'm already planning on I was going to be dry this January,
yeah.
and I think you are too. Thanks for coming on and talking a little bit and giving people a little bit of inspiration. Steve
Hey, Matt, That's what we do. Happy New Year to everybody. You'll be hearing this one after the after the first. So 20, 24 can be a good year for all of us. So.
We can make
Yeah,
it
look,
a great year.
I'm looking forward to it. Thanks
You're welcome. In
for.
next week. We'll see you again by everybody.