Steve, my friend Darren reached out to me yesterday and he sent me a text. He knows I don't drink. We talk about sobriety all the time. And he said, If I think a friend has a drinking problem, what should I do? And I'm like, Oh, this is a good one. It's This a. is a good one. Great question. He's not in the program, so I can't give him the whole what we would do 12 step wise for this person. But I thought this would be a great one for the audience, because I think everybody has encountered this.
You get some sobriety however you do it, and you notice those people who may have a drinking problem. And how do you approach it? Because you don't want to piss the person off. You have good intentions. But what if it goes sideways and then if you're in a 12 step program, we've got a whole process for that Right. or at least a guideline. So you get that text. What are you telling somebody? Well, I guess it all depends on my relationship with that person. But there's so many variables
involved with it. Right. You have to somewhat you know, if somebody asked me that text and it's easy, you can now you can have a conversation with that person, you're really not. Well, you don't think you're talking to a person who needs help. Although, you know, who knows? So it all depends on a few things. You know, who you know, this person understand that they might need help, you know, So a lot of things like that. So. But anyway. That's where I started,
Right. Like, does the person think the person think they need help? Like. So you have to get some background right. And I'll tell anybody listening to this, even if you're not a 12 step or if you're not a big book person, this is where the big book has really some really good information that you could get, the big book, you could read through the big book, and you can get some ideas how you can help another alcoholic without buying the whole package. Right? Like, you don't need right?
to buy the whole thing. So there are you know, we have a process that we would follow and you can take some ideas from that process. So if you're out there and you're in your thinking about if you're just sober, curious, you don't have a problem. If you don't have a you know, the big book, I'd suggest you get one and just keep it as a reference guide if nothing else, because there are steps, you know, and, and the first step is, does this person realize that they have a
drinking problem? Does this person, except this person complain that, Oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing that, You know, you to do some investigation on this before you do anything else? Steve That is a great point. And if we look at the why of why Bill wrote the big book, it was to get people sober. But he didn't write it just to give to the person's sick and suffering. No He wrote it to help people get sober. And that included doctors, family members, people who run businesses.
businesses. All The right. president, he wrote it to give people an idea of how to help an alcoholic. Right. There's a lot of reading around that, and I don't think we talk about that enough. Now, when you mentioned this topic, I said it's a really good topic because because of that. Right. That the whole book was written. I mean, obviously it was directed to programs directed towards the sick and suffering alcoholic. Yeah, absolutely. But you're absolutely right.
That whole book is really targeted to a wide, wide range of people. And anybody out there who may have addiction in the family, some alcoholism, whatever it is, really, really a good reference book to have. And it could really help you understand some of the stuff that goes on. It can help you understand the mind of an alcoholic and help you understand some really some of the things and realize like, Oh, crap, this isn't just this
person. This is this isn't my husband or my boyfriend or my brother or whoever might be this. He's acting or she's acting like lots of alcoholics act. And then you get an idea or like, there's a real problem here, right? And this is this is a problem not unique to that individual. It's a paraphrase, the old commercial, because the alcoholic mind is a terrible thing. Yeah. Right. So, so that was the first thing I would say, like, do some investigation. There's this
person. And if and if and if the answer is, I don't know, then that's that's where you start. You start by Yep. talking and you start by, you know, I don't know if you're not in the program, then it's then you got to sort of, you know, do what you can but start, you know, depends on how how close you are
to this person. Have you been around where they've gotten out of hand that you could point out a couple different place things and and you sort of have to lead that person to the understanding to to them self understanding that maybe they have a problem. Right. That's that's the first place to ask. You have to lead them to a place where they can come to the conclusion right, that maybe they have a problem Right. The big book is something is a piece of quetelet.
I think everybody who is involved in recovery, either on the outside or the inside. It makes sense to buy. You do not have to buy that. You don't have to be part of a 12 step group to buy the book. Alcoholics Anonymous. It's an old book, but there's a lot of good tips in there, even if it is outside of recovery. And the steps are the basis for Al-Anon. So right. the program of Al-Anon is an offshoot of the big book. So I asked the follow up, you know, how have you addressed
this? He's like, oh, we've addressed this a bunch of times. Okay. Okay. So I don't think that you think he has a problem if this keeps being addressed. It sounds like there's a problem. Right. This isn't I agree. your first pass, Right. Yeah. So if you get that feedback, then. Then then you could help. They need then do some different things. And I truly think that. Then the next question is, do you want to stop? Right. That's the that's the old quote. That's the question we
are. Do you want to stop? And if they say no or if they say, you know, they want a moderate, then you know, again, you know, that's not us. Right? right? That's not our program. If somebody tells me that they don't want to stop and they want to moderate that, my answer is, okay, well, let me know how that works out. And then if you need more help, you know, you know how to get in touch with me right? Mm hmm. But in your friends case, that may not be how you want to
handle it. Or you may want to come up with a program of moderation. You may want to say, okay, let's let's try this program. Let's see how we do. You may want to help again, help this person get to a place where they undeniably believe and understand that they have a problem that they need help with. Right. We talk about it all the time here, Matt. I talk about it
every time I go to a meeting. I go to meetings and I do this podcast because for me, for this alcoholic, I can't stay sober on my own. Me I neither. can't I cannot stay sober on my own. Therefore, I need a community, I need a program. I need to go to meetings to remind me of that. So I need that kind of help. And so that's what you got to figure out. You know, this person like this, you know, what kind of help if this person chooses to get some help, what
kind of help do they want? So it's a it's a really tough question. I'm sure I'm sure this question has been asked in people's minds, at least by millions of people. Think about it like, you know what? What do I do? What do I do in this situation? Yeah. you know, I told the story before Matt talked very quickly here, but I was in my early twenties, maybe 20 to 23. My mom, I grew up in an alcoholic family. My mom was
an alcoholic. And and I got sort of tasked with the responsibility to try to figure out a way to help my mother at a young age. And I had older siblings and stuff. But it just the way it worked out, my family and and I had no clue. Like, this was long before I had any idea that I had a problem and and I had no clue. I had no clue what to do. None. Zero. And I can remember driving around the streets of Waterbury trying to go into some different places,
and I got some help. I somehow somebody directed me to some type of social worker and I talked to them and they gave me some, you know, pamphlets of rehabs and stuff like that. But but I had no understanding of it. It was and especially I was only 22 or 23 and it was my mom. I was put in a tough position. I was trying to figure this out. So it's not easy. I'll tell you,
it's not easy. But in the case and just to wrap that up in the case, we did come up confront my mom and it was me and my one of my older one, my older sister. And we sat down and we talked to her and I had those pamphlets and and it was what my mom needed. And my mom got sober. I don't think she as far as I know, she never went to any AA meeting or anything. She had a lot of faith. So but in that case, that's what she was needed. So and that's
the other thing, right? I mean, if this thing gets really, really bad, there maybe need to be an intervention. Right. You If know? you're going to do an intervention, here's what you shouldn't do. We're going to go to YouTube and look up Sopranos. Chrissie Moltisanti is Right. his his intervention where the guy comes in and he's like, Hey, I've been sober for this many years and, you know, I help other people. And Paulie goes, and you forgot scumbag fag. That would that would probably be not
the way you want to go. I watch that every once in a while because it just makes me laugh my ass off about how to do it the wrong way. But that's The Sopranos way. Right. You And don't want to go that way. So this is this is a really hard one because this is an out of your control experience, the circle of control here. That person who's sick and suffering is not in your circle of control. You can coax, you can ask. right.
But if they are not going to decide for themselves, you will not be successful and you haven't done anything wrong. That's the other thing, too. If this is not successful, if you talk to somebody and you talk about the drinking problem and you do everything by the book right, and they don't stop, you haven't done anything wrong. You know, Matt is so important. I had the and I really do. I think it was an honor of helping a family with an intervention. They asked me for my help. They
knew I was sober. They told me what was going on. And I met with this family a couple of times and I walked them through what I would do for an intervention and I told them I was willing to be there. I knew the I knew the person who they were going to try to do this with. And and I said, I could be there if you want me to. But I don't think it's the right place for me to be there. And we worked out a scenario where it was this person's children who sort of
did it. And and the one thing I stressed with them was like, really be prepared that this isn't going to work. Like the chances are this won't work because this was a chronic relapse. Ah, and I just like so you just, you do have to, you have to put your all into it and then you have to be able to walk
away. And the nice thing about that is that if it doesn't work and it goes really bad and this person ends up dying from this disease, you could hang, you know, you hold your head up that you tried, Right. that you tried, you put an effort in there and you tried and you did what you could. It turned out that it was successful and Great. and it was really good. And, you know, the person went on to some really good sobriety for for for
several years. So anyway, it was it was good, Here's the unfortunate secret. you Most people don't get sober who have a problem. know? No matter what you do, even if they walk into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, most people who walk in don't stay. It is really a small percentage. If Mm hmm. you're somebody who got sober and has stayed sober for quite a while, you have hit the lottery. You've hit those lottery odds in many ways. Most people don't. And that's that's a sad fact.
Yeah. And I certainly wish I wish it wasn't the case. No, it absolutely is a sad fact. And and we see if you know, if you're if you're on the front lines like we are, you see it like, you know, our Monday night meeting that we both attend. It's like we've had new people come in to that meeting the last, say, a year at least. We've had four or five. I mean, newcomers, like they were sober for days or a week or something, Mm hmm. come into that meeting and talk like, Oh, I'm so happy to be
here. I feel like this time is good, this time is going to work, and then we would never Yeah. see them again. It's like you would never see we, you know, we'd give them a big book. That's one of the things we do if they don't have one, and you would never see them again. So it's it really is like it's it's you know, the odds are against people getting sober. Yes. So it's good to know that. It's
good to know that. So you can have some peace of mind so that you can not feel like you're a failure if it doesn't work, The other thing is, they may not get sober the first time you have this conversation. right? This is a process. Mm hmm. Relapse can be part of the story of a lot of people. Yeah. It. And I'm thinking of our friend Jerry, who was a chronic relapse or for like, 20 years, Yeah. and he. It kicked in and he has some of the best sobriety of somebody I know Yeah.
in really long term sobriety that there are extreme examples where they try over and over and over and over again. But are part of talking to somebody, even if it initially doesn't get them sober, could plant the seed that may be slow to germinate. I went to a I went to a wake just before we. We were recording the state, and the wake was for my sponsors. And because I am in a program and I had a sponsor, his mom died, and so there were a couple of
program people there. I was there early because I have a busy night tonight. And there was a guy there who got I met this guy just talking about chronic relapses. I met this guy probably ten years ago now, and I had known him. I had seen him before, like I had been around the program since 95. So I had known him somewhat and he knew my sponsor like he was. He and my sponsor were connected and maybe my sponsor may had sponsor
him once. But anyway, he was at the wake and he's back in the rooms and he's doing a pretty good job right now. And his wife was with her and he introduced us and he goes, he goes, Oh, Steve and I go way back and he made a joke. And he goes, But there was a couple big gaps in there, like when he was out. Right. And because he was a chronic relaxer Yeah, and and it's a funny story that but I was I was talking about it when I met him. He goes, hey, you know, I went to your house
with a pool. Right? And it was one of these days where anyway, he came over to my house once and he he stunk of alcohol. He had been out drinking that whole night and he left. And I never saw him again until I went up to a meeting a couple of months ago. And he was at the meeting. And that's the whole point. Like I didn't feel when he left my house that day, like, I failed. I talked to him. Um, I tell people all the time, you know
something? When I, when I finally saw him a couple of months ago, I was still in his phone. You know, my phone number hasn't changed my address. I tell people all the time, my phone number hasn't changed, my address hasn't changed. and there's two meetings I've been going to since I got sober in 2010 or shortly thereafter. So you can find me at those two meetings pretty much any weeks. Like. So I'm a findable person if you if you need help and, you know, and it was good and and
that's what it is like. There are gaps. And I said, hey, we all have gaps in our lives. So I told him, I admitted, okay, we all have gaps in our lives. right. And and he had and he struggled and he struggled big time. But, you know, he I think he's probably getting close to a year. He feels pretty good. He looks good. I was just talking to him
tonight. But, you know, possibly going on a retreat and march, you know, those are the type of things that you can do to to try to enhance your sobriety once you get here. But you're right, it doesn't it's not a straight line. Sobriety is not a linear thing. Right? It No. is. And it's up, you know, for for many of us, for many of us, it's up and down, up and down, up and down. And and I didn't have a lot of relapses. You know,
when I had a relapse, I did. But, um, but there are people who who really struggle with it, and there's a, you know, we got all those stupid sayings in our program, and one of them is don't quit before the miracle happens. And Mm that's hmm. what that is, right? Don't quit. Keep coming back. I'm always proud of those people who keep coming back. I really Me, am. too. They inspire me. They are. Me, too. And there was. There was a woman who for years, she used to come to our Monday
night meeting years ago and. And then I used to see her on the outdoor meetings, and she would come in and get a 24 hour chip. I bet you I saw her get. I mean, I am kidding. I bet you I saw her get a couple dozen, 24 hour chips over, you know, three, four or five year period, whatever it might be. And she would get up and I could never do that. I've always said that, like, I couldn't do that. Even if I was kept really, I wouldn't get up for That the chip. would be hard.
She got up and got that chip every damn time. And I used to tell her, I'm so proud of you. You inspire me that you're able to do that. And the last time I saw her, which was a while ago, So I don't go to a lot of the meetings where she goes. She was really good. She probably had a couple of years sobriety. You know, she looked good. She sounded good. So it's always a nice thing when you see those people after they struggled for so long.
This is not like going on your phone and ordering an Uber and within minutes you've got a ride. Right? Or now you know, it's like $25 or more on Amazon. They'll ask you, Hey, if you want to get to this level, buy enough of this and we'll bring it same day. Yeah. And sobriety doesn't work on the smartphone principle. It's slow, it's tedious, and it takes a lot of patience and people don't get it the first time. And just because that's the case doesn't mean they're
not going to get it. I told my friend to lead with empathy. That's how I sought to lead. I don't think he'd be comfortable saying, well, I don't drink anymore, but you can start with something like that of Here's why I'm coming to you. If you're somebody who's ignored me. Here's why I'm coming to you. I really care about you. Mm. It feels to me that this is not going well. And it hurts me to see you. Is stopping drinking something that you
might want to do? I would approach it somewhere like that. Yeah. The book talks about you tell your story first. So if you're in the program, here's probably what you should do. If you had that conversation, go with another guy into interviews. That's helpful because there are stories out there that you go to have that conversation with somebody and next thing you know, both of you are drunk or you say the wrong thing. It's to go with a buddy
is always a good thing. But I would lead with I just want to tell you my story. My story is this, that there were times I could drink and I'd stop, but I'd be miserable. And the mind was racing all the time. I didn't get the whys. But I have these things, and you give them something to identify with as opposed to Mm. You're a damn dirty drunk. Well, that's probably not going to work. But if you if you lead with empathy of I'm having this conversation because I care about you, I want to see you
healthier. And let me tell you a little bit about me. I've got some experience with this. This is how I felt and this is how my life has been really awesome. It's amazing the work that the booze I found was the least of my problems. Now I'm able to work on the things about me that allow me to get through life where booze is not the thing that I need. That's always going to be the better approach. a perfect weather open, right. I mean if you can, if you can leave would lead with empathy.
It's the perfect way to open and I'm just going to say that, you know, if possible, it might not be a bad idea even if you're not in the program to take another person, if that person Yeah. is available. Right. Like if this is known to other people, you think and there's other people or, you know, if there's somebody else who maybe discovered discussed this with, you know, maybe not such a bad idea, and again, maybe not the first maybe not even the first time, I guess, you know, that's
what it is. It's listen, it's more of a art than a science, right? Yep. It really is. It's like you got to sort of figure out the situation. Maybe the situation calls for just a one on one first time and then maybe there's another opportunity down
the road. If it doesn't take where you bring another person and it becomes more of an intervention type thing, not a full intervention, you know, but something maybe a little bit more stepped up of letting them know, like, Hey, now you got a couple people concerned about you. And then here's the other thing I was thinking as you're talking, your friend doesn't drink. So I don't know why your friend has chosen not to drink.
And I don't know if that because they they believe that they might have had a problem or they just decided that they just wouldn't want to have alcohol to be part Yeah. of their He life. believes life's better. Right. So, um, you know, and, and that's a perfect way to address it. Like, Mm hmm. you know, something I used to drink, like, I'm sure maybe they used to drink together. These two people. And I just think my life is better without alcohol, you know? And not that I can't
drink it. Um, not that I can't drink it responsibly. I just think my life is better without it. That's one of the things that's happened in today's society. A lot of people are starting to realize that life is better without alcohol, Yeah. even even if they don't have a problem like it's just better without alcohol. There's a lot of people who are gluten free and don't have celiac disease Right? just because it's. I actually. I actually got an
email. I'm reminded of this because I got an email from a listener who is telling me about what I have to. I have to find the name of the book, but he is gluten free. And he told me going gluten free fixed a lot of his problems. Yeah, our friend, my friend Jeff, who emails me from time to time and he gives me some stuff and he mentioned I can't even find I can't even find with what the book was. And he's going to then he's going to hear, this is going to send me another one. He said, I told you
what it was, grain brain. So but I bring that up that some people look and say, you know, the health benefits of removing gluten are good. The health benefits of going with a vegan diet. You Right. can do the same thing with alcohol. Yeah, And I would say if if this is somebody, you know, and you have access to friends or family, you might want to bring them in a little bit. Hey, so-and-so, I'm concerned about his drinking. What have you seen? right.
What are your feelings? It does help get some reinforcements there. You know, another thing, and I don't want to go down this rabbit hole and I don't want to sound like I'm a you know, I hate people who drink cause I know my wife drinks, my wife drinks and she drinks fine. And we had one of those great things where we went out to dinner just Sunday. We after I was supposed to give blood, I didn't feel good anyway, went out to, like, a late lunch, early dinner, and.
And she got a glass of wine and she left half it on the table, which always kills me. That infuriates me. Yeah. No, that is more blood. We paid for it, but. But I just. I just don't get it. And so we're leaving. And I told them, like, hey, we could sit here while you finish, Like, there's no hurry. We're not going anywhere. Like, it was like a 215 lunch, like we had nothing going on. She just didn't feel like finishing it, and she'd love to be home. But,
um. But one of the things that they say now and again, there are reports done. They used to say that, you know, glass of wine a day was good for you. They do say now that no amount of alcohol is good for you. Um, and I do believe that that's probably true. It's, it's a poison. Um, yeah, it makes us feel silly and good and a lot of things. And it's a subtle social lubricant, but as a health benefit, there's no amount that's really healthy for you.
There's other things that you can get from a glass of red wine or something you can get from other things without the alcohol. You That's could eat a handful of blueberries. right. So, so that's the thing. And again, it's not that, you know, if you don't have a problem, then if you don't have a problem, you're probably not listening to this podcast. So, um, but, but there's a lot of reasons why people don't drink nowadays, and one of them is health. I'm making instant pot chili tonight Okay.
because it's easy to put together. For some people, it's like making instant pot chili. That it's not something I make all the time. It's a decision that, okay, there are these circumstances, I'm going to bring out the instant pot and I'm going to make chili. But I'm not addicted to chili, nor do I think about it All all the time. And right. that's how most people think of alcohol. Okay. Well, if I'm in this situation, well, sure, I'll have a drink and they don't think about it again, ever.
And so the people who have it once in a while, which normal drinkers, they have a handful of glasses a year. I saw some study that it's it's an obscenely low amount that normal drinkers drink. And in that case, it's probably not going to hurt you. But yeah, all the studies now coming out and saying there may of whatever benefit is there, the other things associated with it that could be a carcinogen, Right. cancel it out and it's much easier just to eat Yeah.
literally a handful of blueberries Yeah. and you get the same thing. And I think that's what a lot of people are deciding. Like once they see some of that information, they say, why bother, right? Like, if Yeah. I'm only if I'm only having a glass of wine when I go out to dinner, which is sort of what my wife is doing now, We were she was talking this is her talking to me. She's decided, like she said, I don't think you're going to buy a bottle of wine. She doesn't buy a lot of wine from.
And she's like, I don't think going to buy one. I think I'll just have a glass when I go out. And a lot of people, once they get to that point, then they start thinking, why bother? Oh, Like, that's my wife right, why? all Why the time. bother having that one glass a month or a week or whatever it might or be two or three weeks, right? I mean, if my wife isn't going to drink it at home, then she's only going to drink it
when she goes out. And that may be once every couple of weeks, sometimes for a while, every week with some friends, but once every couple of weeks. who knows? Who knows why people don't drink? I don't drink because I can't drink now cause I don't want to drink, but I just can't drink. And, No, me neither. and, and that for me and and it's not a bad thing. I today I do realize, like, my life is so much better without alcohol. And, you know, nowadays I really. I guess maybe if I could drink, I
would do it. But yeah, I. I'm happy my life doesn't include alcohol. It's one thing off my to do list Yeah. that I have more time for the other things, and the list is pretty long as it is Mm now. hmm. I have plenty of things I got to work on for myself. Removing that is an obstacle. And nobody ever, ever said, You know, I went out, I didn't drink and I drove my car off off the road. Yeah, Now, you might have done that, but that's yeah, incidental. yeah. You know, I left I left
the bar. I didn't drink. And I immediately the cops, you know, surrounded Right. me and arrested me. Yeah, I didn't I don't walk out sober and am a menace and get into fights with people. yeah, So yeah. there's that. For for for many of us, that's a that's a key, right? Mm hmm. and even even if it did, those things didn't happen. They were possibilities, right? We talk about it all the time. When you drank, when you if you drank the way I drank, when in the worst, my worst days I had not even
that. Even that when I was when I was just a young drinker, partier, you know, I mean, I was just I was a menace on the road. I was I mean, I didn't think it, but I was a menace on the roads. And it got you know, I'm so happy that I'd never hurt anybody, including myself, because I smashed up several cars. luckily, you know, none of them were bad. Most of them were one car accidents, you know, And, and I was, you know, I was lucky that I wasn't a speed driver.
And, you know, I wouldn't you know, it wasn't drawn too fast. And when those two accidents happened, I was I was okay. Well, we'd love to hear your feedback on this. What has been your experience trying to reach out to somebody still sick and suffering? Did it work? Did it not work? Was it a disaster? Was it man? Did you have any success? Is this something that helps you hearing this? Have you thought about reaching out to somebody but you didn't know
what to say? You can reach us at Sober Friends podcast or on Instagram at Sober Friends Pod. Steve, thanks for another great podcast. All right. Okay. Have a great night. You too. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody.