Today, sober Friends podcast is brought to you by Angie Mack. Angie Mack is our friend and a friend of the show. You can find her on Facebook. She supports us each and every week. And she bought us ten coffee, she said. Thanks for all you guys do. Love you guys. And I miss John. Yeah. Who's that guy? If you Yeah. want to be like Angie Mack and help support the show and support what we do and help us defray some of the costs so we can get the message that recovery is possible to the new
guy and the new girl. You can go to buy me a coffee dot com slash sober friends pod. Yeah, we missed John too. I guess we'll address it. John hasn't really been here since the first of the year and not really much of a conspiracy if you're looking for John. John is a pretty busy guy. He. He left retirement to go take another job, and he does. Joe and Charlie's and he does a lot in
recovery. And he's got a very for somebody who I think he would say is probably towards the end of his career, I'd say he's at the end of his career because he already retired once and retirement was a little too boring for him. And that's really when he was helping out on the podcast. When he was retired, he went back to work as a demanding job and it's tough to carve out the time for him to be here. So John always has an empty mike waiting for him if he has the time to do it. And John
knows that. And that's why I haven't heard John. So I appreciate couple people have reached out and I just have been hesitant to talk about it because I'd prefer him to be here. I like his message, but he can't and we respect that. He's still doing a lot of great things in recovery. John's doing great. He's probably going to I don't know. You told me how his how was I? How are his knees doing? That's
He's
his biggest
having
issue
a Yeah.
right now.
His. He has a bad knee gimpy need. He's getting a knee replacement, early November, so it's going to knock him off the hiking trail for a while, and but hopefully it'll augur well for him, and he'll be back out there soon,
He's active enough that he has a knee replacement. He probably by next summer will be in a better shape than he was this
yeah,
summer.
Yeah. Now he should do what with it? Cause he's active. He's working out. So hopefully. I mean, that was pretty routine. Not everything's. Nothing's 100%, but they're pretty
No,
routine nowadays. And hopefully, like, like I said, he'll be able to do that. So we're supposed to go out Sunday. Sunday is supposed to be a beautiful day. So we're supposed to hit the hit the woods come Sunday. So we'll see where we go.
I haven't talked to him in ages. And it's mostly Yeah, because he lives in Granby and that's too yeah, far away for me. yeah.
Right,
You're not like, I don't see you every week at the meeting and you're not within 5 minutes of me. I'm not going to see you.
right. Yeah. That's a long way to go. South
Yeah,
ones that are Granby.
Yeah.
Mm
Oh,
hmm.
25 minutes. That's too far for me.
It. It is.
But you get wrapped up in your own stuff. So if you want. If you want to beg John to come back on, reach out to me. I'll give you his personal phone number and Yeah. you can text him. Yeah. So our topic tonight, Steve, is about trust. I have a friend, a very close friend who is constantly telling me I don't trust people and I get burned every single time I trust in this person got burned recently. Real bad Mm to the point that they were going to change their
business direction. When I say business direction, not have a business anymore, and I think I was instrumental in saying don't do that. mm. Don't allow that to be what changes what you got into, that you have a purpose. Don't let them win and it was that she told me this was some that somebody violated my trust. They said something that was gaslighting. I consider them a good friend and then they did something businesswise to violate my trust even further.
This proves that everybody's going to burn you. Yeah, And I hate to say that I can identify with that because it's that's very cynical. I can identify with that immediate feeling. Yeah, I got burned a bunch of times. yeah.
I mean, we all, I think we all have. If once you, if you go through life and you take any chances at all right. That you're going to, you're going to get burned, people, Mm people hmm. do it. you know, it's, it's a, it's a topic that has hits close to home. I mean, I had tons of trust issues, tons. And I've spoken about some many
issues here on this podcast. But early on and a lot of that was in you hear this too, and I'm not saying anything like this is what's happening with your friend, but for me personally, it was a reflection, right? I was looking at a at a, at a characteristic that I wasn't trustworthy, so therefore I didn't trust people. Right? So it was like I was looking at that character defect. And that's still today. The character defects of other people that bother me most are the character defects that I
And
have, right? And
that's
I
the
look
way it
at
is.
them.
Let me
so that was a problem. And then I had, I had a lot of trust issue in relationships, tons and tons of trust issues and relationships. And again, that goes back to childhood and all that kind of grown up an alcoholic family with an alcoholic mom. And it really, it really messed with me for years, like well into my adulthood, like til I came back this last time, I got sober and really did some deep work. And then I was able to finally sort of sort through it and come to peace
with it. So it's a lot better now. And even today, like, I don't trust the fact that I don't think I'll get burned. Like, I know I'll get burned. Right? I know I'll get burned. But I also know today, like, I will only exposed myself so much. You know?
I will tell you that if I was listening to a podcast and somebody was talking about me, even if you don't say my name and I heard maybe that person has issues because maybe they feel trust is an issue for them or however however you're saying, I know Yeah, I'm butchering it. Oh, that would fry me at first, especially if I was new in recovery. yeah. And I don't think we're saying this person's not trustworthy. That's why they
No,
don't trust.
not
But
at all.
I think there's that internal feeling of, Well, where did I break trust? Those are Yeah. the issues that I have. Where did I not show up on time? So therefore I get pissed off when I'm not on time or
Yeah,
when people are not
right.
on time for me.
Absolutely.
And that
Oh. Yeah?
I think there's a trigger there as well of when you get burned. That is a pressure point for you. There are some people it's those are the things that are the biggest pressure points of when we've had trauma. That trauma comes up in other ways and it could be I've been burned, I've been burned, I've been hurt when I gave love Mm and hmm. I chose to button myself and protect myself and I open up and again I get punched in the face. Yeah.
Absolutely. And, you know, I mean, if you're really going to go into a relationship, truly go into a relationship, you have to make yourself vulnerable. And if you have to and if you make yourself vulnerable, you open yourself up to be hurt. No question about it. It's just the way it is. Mm hmm. And you do have to trust people and. And we're all human beings, right? That's one thing that I've learned, like we're all human, we're all fallible,
We're all not perfect. We're all you know, we all have our struggles. And so. So nothing is guaranteed in life. Nothing is guaranteed in life. I've come to realize that. So I realized today that when I open myself up, then, there's a chance I'll get burned. And I also look today like I'm able to look at people today and give people a lot of empathy, really, even people who are doing that kind of stuff, like, Man, you know, what's up
with that person? You know, like, like, I really think like, if somebody's going to steal something from me or something, like, I always think, like, God, I hope that person really needs it. Right? And the truth is, even if they're a drug addict, I understand that, right? I remember my brother years ago, we were talking like one of his guys. My brother always hung around. He was in recovery for a long time and hung around with guys who were in and out, in and out. And one day he was living
with my dad in my dad's house. I think my dad had passed by this time and one of the one of the guys came over, stole his lawnmower and pawned it. Right. And even when we both looked at like, yeah, that's what addicts do, right?
Yeah.
Addicts are going to addicts are going to do that kind of stuff. Right? They're going to they're going to burn you. And I think he went out to the pawnshop and got it back. But it's like that kind of shit happens in recovery. I was in I was I was part of a group right where it turns out that the treasurer was stealing money for for a long time. You know, we never and I was new to the group and I sort of I'd never picked up, but some of the old timers like, we should have more money.
Like something's going on here, right? We should have more money than we have. And, and finally, you know, what happened was, you know, they finally just decided, like, I guess it was supposed to be a two year term. And the next time we had a vote, like we just they just took it away a couple of years time.
And.
It's like now we're done. So those things are going to happen. They're going to happen in recovery, they're going to happen in active addiction and and then if you throw you've mentioned that there was some business you should go and you throw business in there. It's a whole
Yep,
nother ballgame, right? It's a whole nother ballgame. It really is. It just adds a whole nother dynamic dynamic to it.
what the other person did was so small in that small in terms of the effect. But it was there were some pettiness in MM. terms of some things that if Right. you are if you're that desperate, do you have enough respect in your own abilities that you would take advantage of another person's business and try and go around them the way they did? I'm trying to be credit be vague here, Yeah.
but knowing the whole story here, there were a couple of things that the other person did that could harm my friend's business. Mm But in the end it probably would be a short term thing. And it's more like if you really believe in your abilities, you doing that gives you a little bit of a leg up for a short period of time. But it's not going to make or break. So if you if you feel like you have to go to that level, it's something that wrong about you hmm.
and helping other people and listening to them really gives me a kick. I enjoy doing that. It makes me feel better. You talked about empathy. I can I can do it where I'm not just giving the person advice until they ask, What do you think Right, I should do? You know, Should I close my business? My answer is no. Why? Right. Why would you do that? And then I had a little funny there about, you know, if you do that, then somebody else that we know will be the only one in your
business. And that was enough. That was enough to kick her. Kick her in the ass and say, Yeah, you're absolutely right. But I try to, you know, it feels like you're having trouble trusting, feels like this was trauma coming back up. Feels like they pushed her buttons. There's really a lot of that in just listening and trying to hold back and give my opinion when it's warranted. All right. Let's bring this back to when we were drinking, when we were
using. Where do you think our trust issues pop up in active addiction?
an active addiction addiction for me. Again, one of the problems, right, is like I was drinking, I wasn't totally open with my drinking. So first of all, so I was living this lie, right? So I was living this lie. I live with a person who did not know the what was going on at all, right. In my last relapse, like, wow, you know, my wife did not know I was drinking until until I admitted I was drinking. And that's when I went back to to get some help. so that whole thing, I'm living a lie so hard
again. How do I trust anybody when my whole life is a lie?
Mm hmm.
So that was the biggest problem for me is that and then again, you know, I've talked about it grown up in that alcoholic family for me where I felt like I couldn't trust. I just became so self-sufficient in my at such an early age. I didn't feel like I needed anybody, so therefore I didn't need to trust anybody. So and it just went on and on and on. And again, there was I had some relationship, I had some bad relationships that I felt like trust was broken, you know?
Right. And then what I did was I turn around and behave that same way, you know? So it was really it was really tough. It was really tough. So, you know, it's really hard. And I could. Addiction, right? You're living for most of us, Not everybody. I've so many people do it right out in the open. We live somewhat of a lie. You know, typically, we're not fessing up. How much we're using, how much we're drinking, even if people know we are. And and that's where I that's where it starts.
I mean, I think once you're there, it's really, really difficult.
Absolutely. I was also lying to myself. An active addiction. I wasn't being honest with how much I was drinking. In Mm the end, hmm. I was drinking scotch. That's very easy to drink a little bit more than you should, because there's not much room for error there. Boxed wine. I could just walk over conspicuously and top off the glass while you're looking at me. And you saw me only have one glass. And if you're being very obvious about your deception, people don't pick up on it generally.
Hmm So I had those things and there was a lot I was doing to lie to myself. Mm hmm. So and a lot of it was covering up trauma. So and there was the I didn't want you to tell me I had a problem that was too painful. So there was the deception around there and also the idea of being vulnerable in any way, because I think vulnerability equals trust. If you're vulnerable with other people, you could get hurt. And there are aspects of that with me that are still very tough, Mm hmm.
and I think that's a lot of what it is with my friend is she says, trust. I see it more as vulnerability. You're a little Mm bit hmm. vulnerable with somebody and bam, you get hurt
Yeah. It's tough. I always say I have a thick skin, and I think I do for the most part, except for probably, you know, I mean, obviously, people closest to me, my wife, maybe even my kids, they can push my buttons easier than other people probably could. But, you know, one of the things I was I was thinking about was that when I when I when I wanted it, when I want today. Well, one of the things that I think has helped me with my trust issues is working with other alcoholics.
Right? Because one of the things I've learned and I had to learn is that and not only working with them, like just watching new alcoholics come into the rooms and you talk to them and this was just somebody who came in just two weeks ago and that Monday night meeting came in brand new. I'm two weeks sober. I just got my third DUI. I got a three year old at home. I'm really, really worried. Talk to this person after the meeting. Got them a big book, which they didn't have all that kind of
stuff going on. And then I said to them, I hope you come back because I really like you. I would really like to be part of your recovery. Like that's all I hope you come back and and this week shows
and
up, right? This person who is so worried that nowhere to be found, you know, and I realized today, like that, like that's what happens in recovery like that. Anytime you've worked with people, like I've worked with a lot of guys and most of the vast majority of guys who I ever tried to help are not sober. They are not sober. And and I come to realize it doesn't mean that they're being dishonest to me. It's just part of the disease, right? I mean, I've sat with people for over a year.
It's literally going to a on and off through COVID due to COVID I had to sponsor is coming into my house. Just we never stop meeting. You know, we never stopped meeting one of them. You know, I have no idea where he is. And the other one been around and talked to him once in a while. I don't think he's all that great shape, but who knows? I don't know. I don't know exactly what's going on. And that's one that's the other, you know, place. I realize, like, I
just I put myself out there. I, I just, you know, these guys are going to come. They're going to go. I don't have to worry about trusting them. I am I am careful with what I tell new
I'm
people. Right. I'm not going to tell new people all of my dark secrets. I certainly don't want to tell or anything that isn't sort of already publicly known. Right. So I got to be careful with that kind of stuff. But my my, my program, my recovery has really helped me work on that and actually make some distinction as to where I should put some trust and maybe where I shouldn't.
you think the traditions come into play here because Yeah. I think the anonymity with the traditions fit into this somewhat of it's okay to trust. But there's there's also that line of what do you share and when do you share it for your own help, for your own well-being and those of the others around you? Because I was really when you were saying that, I was thinking traditions.
Yeah. Traditions help us in a lot of those ways, right? They give us those. They give us those guardrails. So that's what they do, right? Those traditions give us those guardrails as to, you know, where to sort of keep a lot of leeway in there. You can move all around, but some guardrails keep you from going off the edge. But, yeah, I mean, it's a it's a tough thing. It's
a tough thing. I listen, I feel I feel like today that it's not that big of an issue, but that some of that comes with life experience And too, right? I mean, I'm an old guy, you know? I know, I know. I know the person you're talking about, too. And they're not an old person like know. me. They, you know, they, you know, and they, they do a lot to
They're
go through.
an old
So.
soul.
Yeah,
They're not an old person.
no, definitely so
I think this is really about and I think with when you find recovery, there does have to be some trust in yourself that you can handle the trust violation. That's a that's a lot of words there. There is something to be said with you have to learn to be vulnerable and risk being hurt, because if you don't, you could miss out on something. You miss out on a wonderful relationship with somebody else. In recovery. You could miss making a new friend. You could get burned or Yeah.
you could develop a friendship relationship in some way, connection to another person in recovery or not, that is going to make life a lot better. And if you shut yourself off, you're never going to be disappointed. You're going to be lonely, You might be miserable, hmm. but you'll never be disappointed. And I think a lot of times people aren't going to do that. It's also very easy to find ways that you're going to
get violated. If you're always looking to get your trust violated, you'll never be disappointed either. No. You have to be careful that way Yeah.
Yeah. Our buddy Mike has talked about that. My buddy Mike's been in the program for a long time and sober for a long time. And just in the last three years, four years. Got a sponsor and started working through the steps. And one of the things he always said that he was afraid. He was afraid. He didn't trust people to tell his stuff, too. Right. And one of the things that I was thinking about
and
as you were talking is like, you know, where does trust come into our program? Well, trust comes in to finding that person. And certainly in our program of AA, finding that person to be your sponsor, and then, you know, sharing with that person in a fifth up, all of that stuff about you that are the reasons that you drank, whatever they might be. And we hear it all the time, right?
Like people said, oh, I was never going to tell anybody about this, you know, But when it came down to it, you know, I knew I had to bear my soul in order for me to stay sober. By the time I got here, I was so beat up emotionally, Not again. When I got here the second time, my drinking was bad. It was, you know, I was alcoholic. I was drinking alone in the basement, but I just wasn't drinking the volume that I had been when I
came in the first time. But I was emotionally and spiritually just beat down, beat down completely. And for me to trust and I knew the person because he had been my sponsor the first time for me to It wasn't a problem. And I didn't hold back anything. When I when I finally did all this work. So it's a big thing, right? So I think if for us in our program, in order to get sober, you need to find trust at least one person. Right?
yes, absolutely,
All right. All right. Right. Our buddy Timmy talks about that. He goes, there's one person that he says that only one person. He says Everybody doesn't have to know my story, but one person needs to know. And he talks about how there was one person who knew everything about him and and I know I know
for me, that was important. Now, if you're out there using a different type of program, if you've got a different community, that may play a little bit differently, but I still I still believe that even in those situations, you need to have somebody that is totally trustworthy in your in your life so that so that you could share stuff. Yeah. You had to be a share. Like, I feel like shit today, man.
yes,
You know, I feel like shit. I feel like everybody's beating on me. I feel like whatever the, whatever it might be, whatever it might be, so that you can have those conversations and and maybe get some help with them and not advice, but just get some, some help or yeah, if something like that happened to me or here's what I did or something like that. So for me, trust is really,
really important today. It's easier for me like, you know, I go to a men's meeting and pretty much at that meeting I will almost share anything. It's not a huge, huge meeting, but I will pretty much put anything out that does a few things. I won't. But but even then, those things are like if I come in with something that I'm not going to out that whole meeting, I'm putting out to somebody, when I walk in the door, it's like,
right,
I'll go right, I'll go B I'll be talking to somebody, you know, just to get it off my chest. So
right.
really, really important.
I think that also talks to the quality of meetings. Yeah. And this is if you don't know what a home group is, a home group is that one meeting come hell or high water, you go to it all the time, regularly. You generally take service opportunities with that group. Like that's that's the default group. And if you had no other groups to go to in a whole week, you're going to go to that meeting and whatever that looks
like for you. If you're not in a 12 step group of having that tribe of I need to be around those people. And if you can find that group of people, then it's very easy to share anything in that group. Mm. The other thing is if you're willing to share with somebody and extend trust, more often than not, it'll be extended back to you that you might inspire somebody else Right. to be more open. That's the other issue. The big book does not say anything about a
sponsor. So sponsorship is something that was was a term that was created post big book. I think whatever you're in, there's an opportunity to sponsor somebody in quotation marks, sponsor that you could just be one of the leaders in whatever group it is where you are taking on a responsibility for somebody who is newer and greener in recovery and just taking them under their wing of being a mentor. Mm hmm. Really, a sponsor in many ways is just a mentor who
That's
knows
it?
a little bit more and is willing to take on somebody newer.
Yeah. It has some experience, right? And that's the whole thing. And it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be in a program. Right? No? But if you have a community out there where wherever you find it. Right, even if you go into somebody is paid set ups and all, but you're going to find people who have some experience. And again, like so when you walk in, listen, one of the problems we all face as alcoholics and addicts is that we all feel like we're somewhat unique. We're different, you
know, and it's nice. It was nice for me. It was important for me when I got into recovery to know, oh, wait a minute, I'm not unique. Like these problems are not because if I was like, how can anybody help me? Nobody's ever had these problems before. But today I understand, like, these people have had these same problems. So the nice thing about that is you you go in there and this person can help you because they've been through
similar the same things. And again, like I said, if you find that tribe and if you have enough of these people in your lives, then you find people who can help you with specific situations, too. And I just know that, listen, I've gotten help from weird places,
Oh
weird
yeah.
places that, like, I would have never, ever, ever thought some of the lessons I remember my head are are really just strange situations where somebody said something to me and I've just never forgotten it. And if you told me that that person was going to say something important to me, I would have said, no way, Not, not possible. Not possible that that person could give me any worthwhile advice. And luckily I don't feel that way because lots of people have helped keep me sober.
This is the beauty of being in a 12 step group. I talked about this at a recent interview. By the time this runs, it'll probably have been a few weeks ago. But I talked to our friend Madeline, who was on our show Mm. in our time. It was last night in your time listening to it, it probably was a few weeks ago So I'm talking to Madeline. And one of the things that we were talking about is it doesn't matter who you are. So Madeline hosts the Happiest Sober podcast. If you take a look at
Madeleine's photo. Madeline It looks great. I feel like I look doughy, I'm quite a bit older than her. We could sit there for an hour and lose track of the time just chatting because we had recovery in common. She's got a different path to sobriety than I do. Does it matter? It just picks up like that because we're both sober people. Being young, living in Toronto, me living in Connecticut, it didn't matter. We had sobriety in
common. We had a drinking problem and there was enough there that you can have a long conversation with somebody and make a meaningful connection with somebody no matter what. And I think that's the thing that if you have a 12 step meeting or groups that you go to, you could have that person that you look at and say, they're very different in life than me.
Maybe they're super, super old or they're some kid, 20 years old, who's coming into recovery, who's got six months, The kid who is 20 years old and has six months of recovery has plenty to teach me. Hmm.
Absolutely.
And I may look and say, Hey, that 20 year old has two sponsors already and I don't have any. What can I learn from that kid? Seeing Yeah. a 20 year old is a kid boy. I feel like an old codger now, but somebody like that can teach me something because it's to us we're the same. Or somebody who has a different color or persuasion than me. It doesn't matter. And I can have that. And you learn empathy. You learn somebody else's steps are not just because they've walked a
different way of life. It opens you up to other people's way of living because you have that one thing to connect to.
Right. And again, and when you have that community, you're able to find those people that you can count on, right? You can trust. Yeah. That's a beautiful thing about what's happened to me since I've gotten sober, is that I developed this community of people who I can trust no matter what. Like, I can count on like, these people were all I realized. Like these people, if I'm in need, will be there for me now, not with just talk with Ashley showing up, you
know? And you know, my buddy Tim and I went up and helped Laurie yesterday move some washer and dryer stuff. And it's that kind of stuff, right, To get together, you know? And we reached out to me, Can you do this? Yeah. So we all got together yesterday and spent about 3 hours muscling some washers and dryers around. And it's a beautiful thing to have those relationships. Right. And to know that when we set up this meeting and we say, hey,
Tim, can you help out? Yeah, that Tim's going to be there, right? That I'm going to be there, that other people are going to show up and and not go, Oh, no, You know, I forgot about it or something else came up or all that bullshit excuses that we used to have when, you know, when I wouldn't like you said that I wouldn't show up or I would be late for something. You know, nowadays I don't need to do that. And the people I hang around with for the most part aren't doing that either.
I hope you've learned something about trust. I'd love to hear your side of Is this something that's a button for you that when pushed it, causes a reflex in some way. Do you still struggle with trust? How long injury did it take for you to gain trust? If you want to hit us up, Instagram at Sober Friends Pod. The website is sober Friends pod dot com. Hey, I got another thing I want you to do. Can you go to Apple and fill out a review and tell people how awesome this show is
and give us five stars? If you want to stay connected to the show, you've got a Sober Friends podcast. Com and put yourself on the mailing list. They send out a little e-mail once a week. Just what's on the show, a little sober news, maybe stuff that's going on with the program. It'll be quick. I'm not going to sell your information. Just want to stay connected. Steve, I trust you had a good show today
Hey, Matt, it was great. I always love being here. I always love doing this.
and we'll see everybody next week before everybody.