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It can be so easy, Steve, to think that you don't have a problem because you haven't had a DUI. You haven't lost your job, haven't got divorced, haven't gone to jail, because if you go to meetings, you're going to find a lot of people like that who have lost all but what if your life just isn't getting started at all? Is that as much of a bottom and is that as much of a reason to quit drinking? You know what? I'm getting that one. I'm saying life's not going
at all. Sort of like that old pot commercial where what happened? Because you smoke pot, Nothing.
right.
I
Yeah.
think that's how it goes.
Yeah, I don't remember that one, but I believe that that's probably a true thing. I know when I smoked a lot of dope, nothing happened. but you're right. I mean, we we we do talk about this. We do talk about those bottoms that we hear a lot about. We talk about those people who we all know, some of them very closely who who really had some tough time before they get into get into these rooms. and I know that our stories are
sort of similar. I mean, I have lost some stuff, but I was still in pretty good shape when I got here. And I know you feel the same way, and it's, uh. So. So one of the whole things is that it's not always right. It's not always what we what we lost. It's always probably about what we didn't achieve. Right. And
Absolutely.
I've talked about it in my life, and we can talk a little bit about expand on it some tonight. But yeah, some of the stuff that nothing happened because, I was more worried about drinking or not even not
even that, Not even that. Like I was unaware for a lot of it that nothing was happening, you know, or I realize nothing was happening, but I didn't piece it back track, trace it back to my my drinking, my alcoholism at the time, you know, when I saw some of that stuff, I wasn't I didn't consider myself an alcoholic. So how could you know? So that wasn't part of it. But, you know, in in retrospect, when we do some work, we start looking back on everything that
went on. Yeah. Then you can look at I go, Yeah, I missed some opportunities way back then and you know, if I could run it back again, certainly there'd be things I'd do differently.
At our Monday night, big book meeting, the last week of the month, we do a reading from one of the stories the rest of the weeks we go through the first 164. And a lot of times I get these show ideas from that reading. And what I got the gist was a story very much like mine that well, not like mine, in that she had a good family but went to college, was smart, should have been on a path to success, ended up on academic probation and then after college just kind of did nothing, wasn't
really successful. I look at it this way. I look at it as it's not that the alcohol has prevented me from doing something. It's the behaviors inside of me make me too fearful to take a risk and I can get by with alcohol. And once I'm on the bottle, I can tell myself anything. The mind becomes warped and I can tell me myself anything of why. It's not my fault. I'm not taking a risk. It's not my fault that I'm not progressing. It's everybody else and I'm a victim.
Yeah, it's always scary taking those things. I suffer through that too. I was always afraid to take risks, which is, And it's not all bad things that worked. Things worked out okay for me. but it's why I didn't jump around jobs, right? I was in it. I was in a field that people do jump around somewhere and they chase, they chase some different opportunities. And, and I didn't do that. And there are several reasons. One was
family at home. I didn't want to you know, I didn't have a job that I traveled a lot, really. So I didn't I didn't want one of those jobs. but I do look at a lot of those opportunities that I didn't take. And again, you know, we go back to my story, which is goes back to the late eighties, early nineties. And, you know, one of the things that happened to me and I've talked about this I sure do on Monday night is that you know, I had gone back to school after I got
married. you know, I was married, no kids. And my
What
wife
was your
at
age about this time? I just want to get an idea.
20, I got married at 28, so I had gone back to school. I was working, I was doing some night course works for a little bit. And then they saw a layoff and I got laid off. I went back full time, so I was like 27, 28.
It takes a lot more effort. A 2728
Yeah.
to do that
You know, but, but again, I was, you know, I was somewhat lucky. I was married. I had a wife who worked. You know, we had a very we lived a very, you know, frugal life. We had a literally and, you know, when we got married, we had an act department with a fold out, you know, sofa bed, big one room. That was it. That was it. And so when I when I did that and I went back, you know, by the time I finished up my my, my bachelor's degree, which is what I ended up doing, had an
engineering degree. And I've heard about this. If you go back and listen to my story about, I spent like five, five plus years starting at night to get this degree. And, and I never could figure I couldn't get I couldn't get started, I couldn't get that traction in that field. And as time went on, I graduated in 90 and my first trip into the room was 95. So 1995 was a huge slide for me. So it was exactly that, you know, it was exactly that.
Like what I didn't achieve. And just like you said, it's like, you know, I was, you know, and I used to always say, well, I'm doing you know, I'm working. I got an engineering degree and I'm hanging on with my buddy, but I'm working. but there was so much more out there, and I was petrified to try to get some of that stuff. And I didn't know. And I was really I was bit confused as to why my life wasn't going, you know, and then even got worse. And once I got sober, actually it it got worse
when I first got sober. I don't want to scare anybody, but I hadn't done I didn't do enough of the work to really figure out some of that stuff. So then I was like, okay, I'm not drinking. My life still isn't getting better now what's going on? You know? So it's very, very confusing. It's very easy to get caught up. And you're absolutely right. And I think one of the things was when I was struggling, when I had alcohol, at least I had something to take the edge off, Right.
right?
I could go hide in the bottle. When you took that alcohol away from me, it became really, really difficult. It became difficult for me.
I'm thinking of remembering back at some of my worst times. And this is really tough for me to do because I don't want to think back to those times when I lived alone. I was a traffic reporter. I was making nothing and nothing was going on with my life. And it was difficult to think about life without alcohol at that point because what else would I
have? What else would I have to take the edge off or to be a release from what I felt was a hellish lifestyle, not really knowing anybody, not having good friends, not having a significant other. There was incredible loneliness. So I'm going to stop drinking and just deal with the loneliness or not deal with it, but just have this
loneliness. It just felt it never occurred to me that I could do something different in my life, that I could find a way to get out and to involve people and make friends and change my life. That was totally blocked for me. So then it's like, Well, what's the point? The only thing I can think of here is drinking. Right? That's it.
Right. Because drinking would make you feel good for a while, right? I mean, there might be some regrets later, but it would make you feel good loosening up. It it would relax you the the you know, the early on part of drinking. And it was same thing with me. I mean, I really you know, it's like that that part of the drinking is something that I still can romanticize a little bit like that, that little bit of edge removal type stuff that I see other people do with with
impunity. But I can't do it with impunity because I never I never was able to just take the edge off of anything. Right. For me, it was always once I crossed that line, there was a time where I could have a couple. But once I crossed that line, it was, it was all over. It was like it was always drink, drink until I was either out of booze and I couldn't get anymore or passed out. Either one.
I was listening to a political podcast recently and the host mentioned that he was watching a recent debate and he was doing it with a bottle of Jamison. This house, I don't think has a drinking problem just hearing how he talks. He probably had a glass of scotch with him while he's watching this. And I thought, what a superpower I have today, that if it's something like that that I'm not enjoying, there's no need for me to have a drink to get through it, even if I don't
have a problem. If this guy is, you know, having a half a glass of whiskey at night, I'm like, Oh, boy, this thing is such a mess. Right. I don't need that. Regardless of how bad the situation is or how uncomfortable it is in a sense. Now I have an advantage, a super power over normal people. I don't need anything of a substance. What I do need are some tools, but I don't need
those substances. And I felt really great hearing that and thinking that about myself and this totally goes back to fear. I think back to my childhood, my upbringing, and just feeling always less than. And part of it I thought was on the poor kid in a wealthy town. But there's always like poor kids in the wealthy town who get by and have Yeah, friends. I didn't have the belief, so I had those alcoholic instincts even before drinking that. What's the use unless that I'm a victim
Yeah. We all hear those stories about the poor kid who made it out, right? I mean, we we hear that. We know that. Maybe we know some of those people, but I was the same way. I didn't have the self-confidence to do that stuff. And then when I started to make a little bit of progress in my life, I was petrified to lose it, you know, like I was holding on to that stuff for dear life. That was one of the reasons why I didn't I didn't take a lot of chances with my career, right?
Cause I had a job, was paying the bills. I always had potential. I was in sales, so there's always a potential for me to make money. I wasn't always in the right job with the right structured pay to do it, But I was petrified to let go of any of that kind of stuff because, like, you know, to me I had made something right? And, and I looked around at my siblings at all and it's like, you know, I was doing better
than most of my siblings. And it was like, okay, well, I made it out of that, but I was still petrified. I was petrified and I was afraid to do anything. And again, you know, but we talk about that fear and we both talk about how that fear just kept us drinking for a long time. I really did. Yeah, I know. My fourth step when I went through the when I went through the steps, you know, fear was written all over and and I and it really I tell the story, I tell it again for new people.
But I remember having a big fight with my wife and it was before I came back. This was before I came back after my relapse. And and I don't know if I was drinking at the time, but if I wasn't, it was a very dry drunk period. I remember having a big fight with my wife and and just really ugly, ugly fight. and then realizing the next morning that I wasn't angry at my wife, I was afraid. I was afraid that I was going to I was losing my marriage, which I was at the time I was losing this marriage.
Mm hmm.
And I was afraid. And what I would do is I would turn that fear into anger, which is, again, it was a survival instinct. As a young kid growing up in a very tough neighborhood, as I get afraid and then I would have to survive and, you know, you know, fight or flight type of deal and and there would be times I'd have to fight. So I would get angry and have to fight. So that's why I dealt with that. And then once I found booze, you know, I was able to take care of all that stuff with
booze. I didn't have to deal with those feelings.
I could be the person I always wanted to be on booze. Yeah. I just can't be on booze all the time. But in those moments where I had booze, I could be the adult I always wanted to be. Even if I was a kid, I could. I lost that inhibitions so I could say the things I always wanted to say. Now it turns out I was acting like an asshole. hmm. That's how I behave on there is witty as I feel I am while I'm drinking is as much of an asshole as I really am. It's just hard to see that in the
moment. And thinking back, there was this hard shell around me. It is so helpful to see my kids go through school now because they're having a different experience and seeing my kids. I see what I could have had. Mm. I had a protective shell around me and I did not have a lot of support at home or I didn't have any support at home. That does not mean that the way I was brought up, it caused me to drink. It means that I chose not to do something about it,
which I, I could have. There are things I still could have done, but it was getting through that period of time with a shell around me of I just have to survive. And that feeling with me of I just have to survive just was kind of always there right through when I stopped drinking. And you don't have to just survive. If you're in that survival instinct, you're not going to grow as a person. You're not going to do the things that you might be capable
of. Because if you have to do something that might be hard with a risk of failure, you're not going to do it. That's the only way you're going to get more things in life. Raise your standing of whatever that looks like in terms of personal growth, of meeting your potential. This was impossible to me because of that protective shell.
really hit something. I haven't thought about it, but like you said, you were just surviving. You're just trying to survive and surviving. And when you said it just got me thinking back, like. Yeah, that's why I spent the good part of my. Certainly, I spent a good part of my growing up, my younger childhood just surviving. I mean, I've talked about it before. We had no money. We would get money from my mom's sisters, my aunts. I once in a while she'd give give us money so she could buy
us some new shoes for school. A couple a couple new outfits. we were very, very poor and we didn't have a lot of stuff, so I was the youngest boy, so a lot of my clothes were hand-me-downs. you know, so all that kind of stuff. So yeah. So when I grew up, I just that was part of my goal to just survive, y know, just get through this part of it. And I always drove, you know, I always early on, like I did change jobs because they would make me could make more money like I did take some initiative.
But as I as I just said that. 3 p.m.. But as I gathered more stuff and even some of the stuff was as I gathered relationships and family, then it became harder to for me to take some of those risk, r? I became more frozen in some of my ability to to make some changes in my life because I felt like, you know, boy, I'd be letting these people down, you know? So it was difficult. It was very, very difficult. You know, the story
was great. I remember before we read it, I looked at it and I had a bunch of stuff highlighted and I didn't remember until I started reading it. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, we both talked about it, right? I ended up on, you know, academic probation my second year.
Me
But
to.
yeah, my second semester, I mean, up at the University. and that scared the shit out of me, you know, it scared the shit out of me like, oh my God, if I ever get kicked out of the school, you know, what's going to happen? And sure enough, it didn't happen. You know, I was able to get through there. But I will tell you, that shook my confidence too. And it's one of the other thing that happened. I think that when I went on that probation that really shook my
confidence. And I'm not sure I ever really recovered from that. It was a tough blow to me.
It should have more built my confidence when Mm I got hmm. past academic probation. That was a turning point for me. There were things that improved. I always was a C student throughout college, throughout high school. Before that, I never was a great student when it comes to grades, and most of that was laziness. I didn't hmm. want to put in the effort. Part of it realizing now is I had ADHD and it was very
difficult for me to focus. So I dealt with that untreated, just thinking I'm a moron, I'm stupid. I could have done a lot more with some systems, and if I had the mindset of Why can't you get an A, what would it take to get an A? What would you need to do to push forward? Who could you have asked for help? That was another thing that was not part of my vocabulary. I didn't ask for help because if I asked for help, I'm being vulnerable. And you might see that there's
somebody broken over here. And that would bring attention because Right. I was in survival mode. You can't see my flaws if I don't tell you, and I just keep my head down and move on.
listen, I never wanted anybody. And this went way into adulthood, right? This went into and this was job. I never want anybody to see my boy in a barrel bellies. Right. To see me as vulnerable in any way. Bu because number one is, if you could see what I was, what made me vulnerable, then you could take advantage of me, Right? So I always protected that. I was always like I was not going to ask for help. I was not going to let you know how I was feeling. Like any of those things, like
none of that was going on. Not how I was really feeling. Not that I was petrified out of my mind, like there was nobody I was going to say. I'm petrified out of my mind that I'm going to fail, you know, and get kicked
out of school. And that's not completely true like I would some of us, you know, engineering school up at Yukon was hard and we'd be walking to some tests and everybody would be like we'd walk out of some tests and peop guys would be like, Oh, I just failed that test, you know, Oh my God, what's going to happen? And truthfully, we didn't fail a lot of tests. I mean, it's just the way it's structured up there.
But, so there was a lot of that going on because it was so difficult, but I was never going to let anybody important. Like I would have never gone home to my wife who gone to work while I was gone. School saying, Oh my God, I'm petrified. I don't know what I'm doing here. Like, I could never be that vulnerable to her. And and again, what happened to me eventually I what I did was I, I couldn't deal with those feelings, so I drank to make them go away to help me
forget about them. I'll just tell a quick, funny story about when I went up to school. My first semester after going to a two year school for an associate degree, went up to Yukon, took a physics course, and I get my first exam back and I get a 55 on it. And I'm petrified, right? Because, you know, I was like a 55. I just failed this physics exam. So I go see the professor I walk into his office and I'm like, you know, I just want to see, you know, what's going on. Like, why didn't you know what
happened? Why didn't I do better on this exam? And he looks at it and he goes, Oh, he was an Egyptian guy.
Mm
He
hmm.
goes, Oh, you got a 55. He goes, That's good, right? Cause he goes, You work a little bit harder. You're going, eh? And of course he goes, That's a solid B, So a 55 on this test for the solid B
How?
because they were curving it. Right. And
Oh,
I'll tell you, I'll tell you how, because I finally realized there's a there was a girl in the class, a woman, young woman. She was 18 probably. She was typical college age, 18, 19 years old. Maybe she would get nine years and hundreds on all these tests. So they they realized today they had a find. They had to find that person. Right? I was easy to find. I was just an average student, but they needed to find that
brilliant person. So they needed to make these tests so hard that they could find her, you know, because
right.
it's like, oh, this is an exceptional student. And so, yeah, so that's where it was. And I got a solid B out of there. And that actually that was my first semester and that gave me some false confidence. It really did. And then I was like, You know something? I'm going to be able to do this. And, you know, sort of took it easy. And I've told this yesterday, I started started partying a little bit, and then next thing you know, I was on academic probation, boom, done. And it was like it was
like it happened so fast. So fast.
The behaviors of people who are prone to alcoholism, false confidence is so terrible Mm. because it makes you take those risks that you never wanted to do. And when you have that false bravado, it always ends up smacking you in the head and reminding you don't ever take a risk again. It's that lesson of when I feel I have some confidence. Don't do it because you're going to fail. It's such a backwards mentality when it's the false confidence. When it's real confidence, it's
different. It's okay. I failed there. What am I going to learn from this?
Right.
It's not the end of the world.
I never had that. Oh, yeah, I get it. People, people they talk about Edison, how many times he failed to make the light bulb, you know, all that kind of stuff. Those takes, you know, special people. And you have to be willing to do that again. I was at my other point, too, and it's interesting. I was always in a hurry, you know? I mean, I was in a hurry to get where I was going.
Mm
And
hmm.
that included drinking, right? So I didn't drink slow. So I was always in a hurry to get buzzed. So I would drink a lot fast. And, you know, as I said, I would overshoot the mark many times and I would have too much alcohol in my system. And then all of a sudden I would be way more drunk than I wanted to be because I was trying to get there faster. I was always in a hurry. So I wanted to get things fast. I wanted to get, you know, even take shortcuts. And and I didn't want to wait, so I didn't
want to fail. That's my point. Like, I didn't want to No, I don't want to fail and then have to get back up and do it again. I want to get there without failing. So my point was, I'll take I guess this is the point. I'll take us a smaller shot that I think I could make rather than a bigger shot that maybe I'll fail and have to do some extra
work. So it is. And I do think that when, you know, if you don't have that confidence, that real confidence, like you just said, then when you start getting knocked down, it makes you really, really shy to take chances in life.
Real confidence is not knowing everything. Real confidence
MM
is. I don't know it. I'll figure this out. I
mm.
never understood that I wasn't going to do it unless it was certain.Which means you don't take anything. What really paralyzed me was the fear of being mocked. I was a swimmer up until freshman year of high school. I was not the greatest swimmer, and part of it was I probably could have been a better swimmer if I took better care of myself. But I had real value on the team because I
could swim every stroke. If you don't have experience with competitive swimming, go watch a video of the butterfly and Hmm. try it. I can't really do the butterfly now, but as Right. a kid I could do an acceptable butterfly and you make points by putting people in lanes. So even if I don't come in first, if I'm not last, I'm going to get some points for the team, which means I have a role for the team I could do. The beginning of the swim meet started with the individual
medley relay. The end was the freestyle relay, so in the individual medley relay they could put another team together and I could do the backstroke is another one that's just kind of tough because you can't see. Mm. You've got to learn how to count. You got to look at the flags, go ahead and try in the pool and do the backstroke and do the whole I'm going to reach and not slam my head. Right.
I could do that. I could do my breaststroke was my best stroke, but I could do the backstroke and I could do the butterfly. So I was incredibly valuable even if I wasn't the best. I quit when it came to high school because the team at Miniature Regional High School did Mohawks at championship time. Everybody shaved their head into a mohawk. I was not going to do that. I was terrified of getting a mohawk Mm. because you were going to mock me.
Right. So if I had a fear of somebody mocking me, I was terrified they wouldn't do it. And that Yeah. could be a job interview. It could be going for a club, whatever it was, that there is a risk of you pointing your finger and laughing at me, I wouldn't do it. And man, did that hold me back.
You know, it's really interesting and just reminiscing about some of the time, the early times and, you know, by the time I got to high school, my drinking and pot smoking was well into full swing. And I remember sitting there and I was never a great athlete, but I played a little bit of a baseball growing up. And I remember thinking I should just like we're talking about, I should do something I never tried out for a sport at at high school level. And like this spring, I think it was probably
spring of my junior year. I'm like, I think I'm going to try out for a baseball team and just because I felt like I needed to do something and, and I wasn't good enough to make the team, I wasn't good, like, and I realized today I had no arm. I could do a lot of stuff I couldn't throw. I can't throw a ball well, I can't throw a fast far. And, you know, you got to be able to do a little bit of
that. So, you know, so I didn't make the team, but I do remember like feeling like, okay, at least I tried something, right? Just like we're talking. And there was another guy, another kid who was a friend of mine who also tried out. He was sort of the same reason. And we tried to go, we both got cut. I'm sure I got cut probably the first round of cuts but I felt good for trying, Right? That's what we're
talking about. I felt good that I actually tried something and and failed, that it wasn't like, okay, I was a jerk for trying. But that was the last time I really felt like I tried anything.
I get terrified still when my kids go to their first day of school. Always terrified by this because it's an echo from the past. It's the end of spring, it's the end of summer. And now I have to go back in. That school is terrible and I have to survive again for nine months. Talk to my son. And he's like, Yeah, today was great. Not worried about it. Everything's good. There's one class I don't have any friends in, but I know some people to counting, but there's a lot to take in to him.
It doesn't, it doesn't faze him. He went and tried out for volleyball. He had never played volleyball. He has potential to be an incredibly great volleyball player and he just went for it, took a risk. He would absolutely made the track team as high jumper and he would have been bored. He's like, I'm going to try something different. I've never played. Let's see what happens. He never has that problem. He gets great grades. He has found ways of when I'm
struggling. We put all the kit, we put all my friends, like on speakerphone, and we have a group, study group where we do this together. All these techniques. I'm like, if I had the brains to think about this when I was his age, life would be totally different. But it was not conceivable to me at that time. I really it's almost like if you hear about prediabetes,
I'd pre alcoholism. I was on the path based on my mindset and I just wasn't doing the things I was surviving and that prevented me from living.
And again, it's a whole nother show. We could talk about childhood trauma. I know just talking to you that you've had some, you know, not that I was, you know, you're like I said, you didn't grow up in a family that was full of love. You've shared that before and things like that. And
Yeah,
I
Hate
grew up.
had a home in my home.
Was that hate
He
at home?
had a home
Yeah.
where I grew up,
And I had a home that was just basically an alcoholic home. Right. And it wasn't so much hate. And that was just a lot of chaos. Right. And there was a lot of, you know, and not neglect because my parents tried as hard as they could, but there was a lot of stuff that that didn't happen. And and that was tough. It was tough. There was a lot of there was a lot of trauma that kept me at a very young age from from reaching any type of full potential. And it took me a
long time. It took me a long time to sort of shake, shake that and get rid of that and then start making some strides in life. And then alcohol got in the way. I mean, it really did big time. It got it gotten away from me at the most inopportune time. All right. And this is what I talked about when when I should have been when my life and my career should have been exploding. Right. An engineer, electrical engineering degree. I should have been you know, I should have walked out of there
with a job. It was one of the reasons I took it. I was like, Oh, I'll teach you. You say, Oh, you'll do fine. You'll always have a job, Like you'll make money, like all that kind of stuff. And my life shit. And then that was the worst time of my alcoholism. So they just converged for me, one of the worst times that could have been and it probably was part of it, a lot of that we talked about that fear, that inability to take chances, that kind of stuff,
the ability to accept failure. I think today, you know, I realize afterwards that I never truly wanted to be an engineer, but if I had identified that early on, I could have chosen a different career path. Early on, I fell into a decent career path or what and it worked out okay, but I could have channeled my stuff. I could have channeled myself right into sales, technical sales, right out of school. Right.
right,
And but yeah, I felt like, no, no, I have to give this. I have to try. So I spent a couple of years pounding the pavement, going to job interviews, all that kind of stuff, doing a shit job in home because I was petrified. And instead of saying no, I should be channeling my energies elsewhere because that was I wouldn't looked at that as a failure to me. Like, Oh no, that's the failure.
I stayed in broadcasting too long because of the same thing that I paid for college. And I did radio and TV courses. And if I get out of the because I knew very early on, like, I don't think this is for me, and I stuck with it for six years of waking up at 334 in the morning to do this job that paid nothing with people who were terrible because I went to college when I could have just earlier gotten up and done something else and be on a quicker place to success.
I remember MM thinking, This is my lot in life. I'm Yeah. I made this decision at 21 years of age and now I'm stuck. Stuck right. What a what a fatalistic mindset,
Yeah
what an alcoholic mindset
it is. And it does show that I listen, I've always said that my brain is messed up and my brain was probably, you know, I mean my brain was probably messed up long before. And through some of that stuff I talked about the alcoholism in my home, all that kind of stuff growing up poor. So all of that caused some some really deep stuff for me. And you know it. There is a fatalistic thought that, yeah, decisions I made, you know, same thing with me.
It's like and that's probably why I ended up in this job that I've done for again, turned out okay, but it was the same thing I fell into it and thought, Oh, this is where I belong, You know, this is this is where I have to stay. I finally got a job that somebody paid me some money and it wasn't great money to start considering I had an engineering degree, but it was money. And and it turned out, like I said, it turned out okay.
I was on recovered recently, and one of the guests, Clyde, said, because we were the topic was grief and loss and recovery. And one of the one of the guests, Clyde, said, Boy, this is a downer of a topic. And I mentioned in recovery podcasting, it's all about down are topics. We're Yeah. not here to to have a
comedy podcast. The ones that you are going to identify with the most is when you say, Here is the calamity in my life and when I can share with you the damage that I have lived through, I can help you where you don't have to go through. So recovery wise, these are all calamity podcasts. I hope that what you're getting out of this is there is a way out. And at the end, this is the good stuff and Right. you don't have to live a calamity filled life. You don't
have to do nothing. You don't have to survive and have a shell so you can live and you can do this early. I got sober at 38, far younger than most people, but a lot later than others. Mm. You don't have to wait till 38. You don't have to wait till the end. If you're 60 and you haven't gotten sober, it's not too late.
Not at all. never too late to
Now.
start. Never too late.
If you like what we do, I'd love for you to give us a follow on Instagram at Sober Friends Pod. If you have value in this. If you find value in what we do, head over to sober friends pod dot com and you can link there to buy me a coffee dot com slash sober friends pod. Let's keep the conversation open. I read all the messages, I read all the emails and I try and respond where I can. When somebody reaches out and says What we do on this teeny tiny
podcast makes a difference. It helps Steve and I and tells us that we're doing the right thing to help other people. Thanks for being on the show tonight, Steve,
Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me. Always great to be here.
and we'll see you next week. Bye, everybody.