I'm Matt. Hey, I'm Steve. Hey. I'm John. This is the Sober Friends podcast. We're here for the Sober Curious. The new guy and the old timer. Here to talk about the stuff. Anyone looking to live alcohol free has to face day to day. How we overcame the struggles. We speak for No. 12 step group, but we do try to remain anonymous. You're not alone. This is the Sober Friends podcast.
Steve, what do you know about sober curiosity or the Sober curious movement, The high bottom versus the low bottom drunk? Is that a buzz phrase nowadays? And I got lots of thoughts about it. What do you know about sober curiosity?
Oh, you know, it's been in the news, so you can't pick up a newspaper or go online, especially these days in January, without seeing something about dry January. Right. And when you talk to me about that kind of stuff, sober, curious. That's exactly what I think. Oh, dry January. And, you know, if you go if you're on social media at all, people talk about dry June like they're going to do a dry June or something. So
Dry July,
that's dry July, right? So that's what I think about is people who, you know, are questioning where alcohol fits in their life and they want to see, you know, what being sober feels like to them. And and they yeah, you can do that somewhat, I guess, by doing a dry January or dry July. and I guess all depends on, you know, how, how you, how you do that and how you come out of it is the biggest thing, right? I think a lot of people can go a month without
drinking. The question is, what do you do when you come out of it and how do you act?
right?
And I think that's where if I was going to advise anybody to do a dry January, I would say don't worry about that so much. But what happens in February, I do try to make up for, you know, wha you know what to do. So that's what I know about dry and sober, curious people. And then there's a lot, right? Again, you and I are both out there, you more than me, but out there in the social media stuff. So there's there's tons of people out there who do recovery and
sobriety. Way different than you and I do it.
Right.
and it seems to work for them, you know, and it seems like it works.
There are a lot of those people out there who I consider doing something really good. This is off topic from where we're going, but you're bringing something up where people are recovering out loud. And I thought recently listening to a podcast, I'm going to say I recently listened to this podcast, God Only Knows when you're going to hear it, because when these get recorded don't necessarily line up or when you actually hear them. So it could
be weeks later. But I recently heard an interview with our buddy Jillian Teets of the Sober Power Podcast. She was on the Heather Parody podcast, which is not a sober podcast. It's a podcast about entrepreneurship, like digital. How do you do a YouTube channel, all that stuff. And Heather is having on some alcoholics or people with alcohol use disorder disorder or sober curious people because Heather's a little bit sober, curious. She's interested to know stories about people who
stop drinking and listening. It brought up some thoughts around when I heard her talk about her own curiosity. It brought me back to when I was green, and it hit me right in the face. And then it made me think about people who are recovering out loud and made me think, What if there was no stigma anymore? Because in the end, Alcoholics Anonymous is anonymous to get around the stigma. That was Bill's work around there. If we look at lean process improvement, do you need to have that rubbish
tradition? If there is no stigma? If we just got to a place where if you have a problem, it's accepted. And if you're out outloud saying, Hey, I don't drink anymore because I had a problem. It's not looked at as a bad thing. How would that change things for people?
I think it would change a lot, although I think it's more, I think it's, I think that is true for many people today, that they can look at addiction very differently and look at alcoholics very differently. as a society in general, I don't think that's the case. and I think that unfortunately we're a
long way from getting there. I' not sure it's a possibility to get there, but it would be a lot easier that if you could go out there and say, like you said, as you like to say, recover out loud because you're so sober, curious, and then be able to work through some of the pitfalls that come with that. Right. And that's
Mm
like
hmm.
I said, how do you come out of that? How you do it without the shame, without right, without the judgment, you know, going on because let's face it, we know that as soon as you step into an AA room and you raise your hand and say, I'm an alcoholic, listen. Well, we always welcome you back, but you are judged as the success of your sobriety, right? I mean,
Right,
if you're if you're in and out and in and out, and now some people are going to say, Oh, this guy just can't get sober, right? So. So there is a judgment, even though we you know, there's a saying you don't take up somebody else's inventory. So it it is hard. And listen, we both know somebody who, because of that exact thing, has stopped doing AA, although he's still trying to find recovery, he stopped doing most of the AA
stuff. Doesn't have stopped at all, but a lot of it because of that exact reason, because he just felt like he was in a spotlight. He could not stay sober. And there was just too much, you know, too much pressure on him. So, you know, I do think they go hand in hand somewhat. So because let's face it, if you're sober, curious, you're going to probably from most people. Well, I don't know, maybe if you're really thinking you've got a problem, you claim to be sober. Curious when you're
like really questioning. Right. It's easy to go, oh,
Right.
man, I got a problem. And then somebody says, Hey, why aren't you drinking? Like you could say, Oh, I'm just doing a dry January, or I'm just doing a dry July, when it may be more than that. So not sure what any of that means, but it's tricky. It's tricky that,
It is.
you know, that that moderation is something that you and I can never find. I have no experience in moderation. So listen, I know. I mean, it's
I
like,
have experience in failing at it.
right? I have no experience in moderation. as I like to say, I have a personality of more. You know,
Mm hmm.
John and I were hiking, and we got off there and we met this young, these young couple heading up, and we are talking to, and, and we were talking, we were, you know, complaining about it. So he goes, Ah, you sound just like my father. I'm like, I am your father.
How so?
All right. It's like. And so he started saying, you know, I don't know who all we get. Somehow we got talking about drinking. And I'm like, No, not us. And I said, We have a personality of more. And he goes, More what? I said, more everything. He goes more drugs, more. Yeah.
Mm hmm.
I said, more everything.
Yeah.
And that's, that's what I have. So moderation never worked for me in anything. So, so I can't, I don't understand that. I can't help people figure that out. I can only help people figure out how and tell them how I stopped drinking. So the sober curious is great. Maybe for the sober, curious people, they find out they have a problem. And then as we always talk about on this podcast, they find a community that works for them,
Right.
right? Not our community, but community that works for them.
To have to
Yeah,
be in our community.
it could be. I don't know. I mean, absolutely it could be. Ah, I'm just saying doesn't have to be our community, but something that works for them that could help them. And, and there's plenty of out there. I mean I listen some podcasts out there that are people who, you know, there's a podcast that I like. It's a woman and the guy she dabbles in AA, she she she's used it he's done lots of that.
And, and they but they talk, they, the talk about it when I don't when they talk about their struggles, I identify with them. Right. Or they're just alcoholics. Just because they're choosing to find a different way is fine. Although there's some questions, you know, there are some questions about, you know, one of them and what they're doing and how they handle a certain situation. But that's up to them. Again, they don't want to take their inventory.
Well, this is. This is all I could get sidetracked on this topic. And this is a separate podcast, but I was thinking was driving the other day the definition of recovery. And are you really a recovered alcoholic if you if it's not through a which my my thought is. Of course. Yeah, Of course it is. And then there are some people who will think, you know, that's not real recovery if it's not through AA, right. which that's that's a
tough thing. But I think there's you know, what what is what does real recovery look like, regardless of your method? I think AA is a method to get sober. It's an incredibly popular one, an incredibly successful one. It's a big part of the pie, just part of the pie. It's like Yeah, a lot of people use Google, Google Chrome, but there's Firefox that's out there too. If you want to use it, or right, Safari or Edge. right.
You know, and I, you know what? I, I use as an analogous to to that is, you know, I grew up we both grew up Catholic in the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church has been declining in the United States for a long time, as
I was
a
thinking
lot
about
of
this
them
as I went by a beautiful looking
as
Catholic church
as
yesterday.
as a lot of them have. Right.
Yeah.
but it was growing in other places, right? It was growing in some of the in
Mm
the
hmm.
Africa, you know, countries in
Definitely.
South Americas and in other countries. Right. So so it was finding other places to grow, even though it was declining in the U.S., I actually think is that again, this is probably another topic is headed in a little bit in that direction. Right.
Mm hmm.
Because there's so many other places now to find this recovery in your community that I do think that you'll find that probably the the the rapid growth of AA, you won't see that in the future as you have in the past because there's so many other ways to do it, you know, And there's other people and I will say this is that you know, society has accepted alcoholism. Most of society has accepted alcoholism
Mm hmm.
as a disease, as most people do say, you know something, this is a problem that this person can't overcome with willpower. He needs help. You
Mm hmm.
know, you need hospitalization, maybe need some counseling, maybe you need you know, you need some type of program. But most most people realize that today that alcohol
Right.
and drug addiction do that. So so most people understand that there is a program out there that people need. And if you have the money, if you have the Ways and Means, then you could find a program that could cost you a pretty penny and go to some type of spa and and get more help. Some of them are really good, even though they're big, sparse and they cost
Mm
a
hmm.
lot of money. Or you can go to AA and it's basically free, you know,
Yeah.
So lots of lots of options out there.
I'm sorry, Mr.. Mr. Old Timer. You want to say something about recovery other than AA? I want to fight you. Okay. Yeah. That's seems Yeah, seems a bit much. By myself. I'll take yeah. you physically. Right. Okay. That. That's Yeah. a little much. I think.
Yeah,
I think it's okay to
yeah.
say there are other options.
You know something? I was thinking about that too, how we, you know, we make a lot of fun of the over time, but we know old timers, especially, like the Thursday night meeting, right? If you go into that meeting, you
Yeah.
got a bunch of those guys there, and I'm I, telling you, Get away from me. and I can remember back in the day, and this is now only ten years ago say that it was really hard to come into AA and talk about being an addict rather than an alcoholic. It's
Right.
almost impossible now. Almost impossible, at least for the meetings I go to to go into a meeting without somebody raising their hand saying I'm an addict, or at least
That was
saying
Monday. I didn't. I didn't raise
it
an eyebrow. Once
now right
Monday,
with my
we had
life
a
straight
guy.
right now, do not cross addicted. I'm an addict.
No. Mm hmm.
Right. So and so even those guys have accepted it. Right? Have accepted those old time ills grandchildren. Now they're still out there who will say, nope, this is a and a. But most people, again, I think we've all realized that an addiction is an addiction. Come on and we'll try to help you out and we'll do the best we can.
So I'm going back to the high bottom drunk, Mm the hmm. sober, curious, Right, and talking about breaking the stigma. Here's my theory on that. The more you break down the stigma, you lower the onramp to the high bottom drunk. Right. I don't know about the low bottom drunk. There is a group of people who have a severe addiction. They are getting DUIs all the time, losing jobs, homeless trenchcoat, divorces,
Going to jail. Going
going
to jail.
to jail. It doesn't matter how much stigma there is or is not. There are some people who are going to be in the grips of addiction no matter what. If you can lower that bar to people who might be more sober, curious, and look at it in a way of I don't have to feel shame for this, that I'm realizing that I am uncomfortable with how I feel with alcohol and I can stop. And there's a method and there's a fellowship I can get together that's going to help me do that.
That would be a big thing. There is a thought process that I can't stop until I fall down drunk and you don't have to. I felt Right? that way going in for the first time, sitting next to an old timer who literally fell into the emergency room with blood coming out of his mouth, his ass, his ears, his nose, literally. Yeah, And it's easy for me to look at that and say, well, that never happened to me. right. Well, good. It never happened to me. I didn't have to
go through that pain. You don't have to go through that pain either. You can be sober, curious.
Yeah. And you can start there, right? And again, let's let's try. We we talked my first time into this program. I mentioned this many times. M first time into this program. It was very dry. I came in twice, so I relapse and I came in the second time, the first time and I was, I still, even then, wouldn be called a low bottom drunk, right? I lived
Mm hmm.
in my own home, which was a condo at the time. I had two kids. I had a college education, which I had just finished a few years earlier.
Yeah, me too.
and things like that. So I had a whole bunch of stuff so you could look at that and say, Oh, he was a high bottom drunk. I always would go say, Go talk to my ex-wife and ask her if I was a high bottom, a low bottom drunk, and she would say that my bottom was a lot lower and and that even the same thing applies to my second time in because I had a different wife at that
time. They would both say that my bottom was a lot lower than it's appeared when you look at the materialistic side, the financial side that but even the second time I came in, I was I was drinking so much less volume of alcohol and I was really worried about some of the things I did. You know, I never drank. I only drank at home. And there's so many things I was doing differently. But so I was a very much a high bottom drunk at that time.
Mm
Now, the
hmm.
thing that saved me was the fact that I had a lot of AA. I knew the program, I knew the program, I knew that I was an alcoholic, especially when I tried to drink and I couldn't. It was really obvious to me, Oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I am still an alcoholic. I always been an alcoholic. And the only way to fix this for me is to not drink at all. I mean, I knew
Right.
that. So. So for me, I knew my solution at that point was to go back in the room. And I was able to do that on my own without any intervention and go and take care of that. But again, that was only because I had had some experience in it and my my bottom was a lot lower the first time than it was the second time.
Tim Phillips of the Sober and Happy Podcast was on this show on episode 128. Check it out in the archives. It's a great conversation. I bring him up because I saw an Instagram post that he had at I Am Sober and Happy where he had a video, and what he said was, If you want to understand what it's like to be an alcoholic, think of drinking something and you want it more. And I saw that. I'm like, That is the greatest video to describe Yeah. alcoholism. All right, think of something. I'm going to
have a drink. And as soon as I have that, I have a craving for even more and it gets exponentially greater. The more that I have, if you are a normal drinker, that is going to boggle your mind. You will never understand that. It's like I'm At going to some dinner and the more I eat, the hungrier I get. right. If you have a problem, you will not only identify that with that, you're not going to believe that other people don't feel the same way. It will be inconceivable to you.
Yeah. No question about it. I mean, that's a great way to put it. And that's why I say I have a person and I get and that just something that pops into my mind having that conversation with that young couple after we hike last weekend,
Mm hmm.
I have a personality of Moore
Yep.
and for me that that does include food, right? It does include when I go out and eat good food. I don't you know, I mean, it's a little bit different, but I don't have just a little bit. I always have more than I should. and I do the same thing. You know, the, the problem with the alcohol is you described it as a craving. We both know it as an obsession.
Yep.
And that's that's what happens. It starts as a craving, but becomes an obsession. I becomes. And if you don't have any obsessions, it's really easy not to understand what that means, but it becomes the only thing you could think of for most of the day, right? W is? Which is how I knew I was in trouble if I wasn't drinking. I was thinking about drinking or I was planning on drinking, right? No, really, I was planning on drinking
Yeah. And I
or
know this feeling.
or I was pissed off because I knew I couldn't drink. Li, it was always one of those things going happening. Always. There was never any peace when I wasn't drinking. The only peace was when that was the early part of my drinking and I mean early by not early in my career, early in having those first few drinks like I would have those first few drinks and feel like this relief that we talk about. We always talk about that, you know, relief, the feeling of comfort that comes over us when we take
that first drink. But even then, when I get into that fourth drink, because I once I hit that line where I know that I'm going too far with it, then I lose all that again. And because it's no longer fun and I'm back into this miserable, miserable old merry go round of of not being able to get off.
Once you feel that. Oh, I've gone over the line, it's way too late Yeah, because you have already booze in your belly that you're not going to feel for another right. 20 minutes.
Yeah,
So it's even if you stop, it is going to get worse.
I heard that. Another podcast. I was driving around and listened to this other podcast and this person was talking about he was talking about he got, I think he called a surprise drunk like,
Mm
yeah,
hmm.
he had drank a lot of stuff and he was trying to do something and he took his drink. It was a lot like my he hit it a lot and, and all that kind of stuff. And he would, he would do it. And I've done it plenty of times. Like, all right, you're out with people. You're trying to you're trying to get your buzz on, but you can't do it in
front of people. So you go you pound a few shots, you know, you have a beer, and then you go back and you have a social drink and then all of a sudden, all that stuff you pounded 20 minutes ago or 30 minutes ago starts hitting you and all of a sudden you're getting drunk standing there,
Right.
right. Like you're standing there getting drunk. And sometimes people could see it and they're like, what's happening here? You know, like, you know. So anyway, so that kind of stuff has happened to me all the time when I was when I lost control to drink, that was a regular occurrence to me.
When
Of
I
me.
drank Yeah. hard alcohol, that happened every time. Yeah, Because I could have a vodka martini and it would go down so smooth. yeah. And I'm looking at the amount that's in there, so I'm drinking it like I'm drinking a beer, Right. and I'd have, like, t. And I'm like, There's nothing to this. And then all of a sudden, it's Yeah. like the world comes to a stop and everything crashes. And I realize I am in a very bad place and I am very drunk.
So yeah. So that that's a great point to jump back as to really what we want to discuss here. So if you're listening to this podcast and you have, you know, somewhat sober, curious and you can identify with what Matt just said, like, oh yeah, that's happened to me. Like I've done that and you've done it more Like anybody could do that. I'm accident. You do it once or twice
Mm hmm.
and if you did it once or twice and then you then that's not a problem. But if it happens to you on a fairly regular basis or if it's something that you notice that is happening, then you may want to check into some sober, curious stuff, some some some type of program to see, you know, how do you feel without alcohol in your life? And and the biggest thing we talk about in our program is in AA. It's the obsession, which is what we talked
Mm hmm.
about like like I said. So if you find that you remove alcohol from your life and then all you can think about is, oh, I'm not drinking like, like you, There's no comfort around the fact that you're not drinking. That's those are the red flags. Those are the red flags. Like, hey, you know, you may want to
pay attention to this. And again, it doesn't mean you're an alcoholic, but it may be something you want to pay attention to and make sure that you have your arms wrapped around that before it gets out of control. Because one of the things we always talk about is that once you cross that line and
Right.
I tap, it's happened to us. Once you cross that line, it's almost impossible to come back. We talk once you're you know, we always say once you're a pickle, you can never be a cucumber again, Right?
Right.
That's what we're talking about, Right? So if you think about a cucumber in a pickle, once you a pickle, you're never becoming that. You're never going back to that cucumber. It's the same way for everybody that I know who's been an alcoholic is that once they crossed that line, there was no going back to that normal drinker who could have a couple beers or a couple glasses of wine or, God forbid, leave a half a glass of wine on a table at dinner and leave the restaurant. It's impossible to
go back to that. And that's my experience. And the people that I've seen in the program and people I've seen recover is that they just can't do that.
I would propose that there's a spectrum that once you get over a certain line and you're in the spectrum, you can't go back. It's sort of like if you go to the store in one section of the store are the fresh pickles that are refrigerated. And then there are the classic ones that have been boiled so that they can have the canning process. And those things are really pickled. Yeah, They're both pickles, but they're different in how pickled
that they are. I think what you get over that line, you can't go back. But there is a threshold of where you are on one end of that threshold. You have the person who can't even maintain a home and is on the street and can't live without drugs and alcohol. On the other end, you have somebody that once it's in their body, it causes them to go nuts. But they might be able to go a long period of time without it, as long as it's a way that there is some level of control there. But right.
once it's in their body, we're no good. And you may move through that spectrum in different ways. You could go pretty fast or it might go pretty slow. I would almost say the person, and I think it was a pretty slow one. The person who goes through pretty slow is more in danger because you may never get fixed because you're not seeing as much as somebody else. If that happens fast, it's apparent to everybody.
Yeah, yeah. If you if you slide down the bottom quickly and again, you could, you could see yourself like I noticed it myself when I relapse. Right. So it was obvious to me that when I decided to stop, start drinking again and for me it was a complete decision and I thought that I would give it a shot. I thought, man, I'm going to get, you know, maybe I could do this after 14 years
I'm
of
going
not
to
drinking.
give it a shot.
Really, I just it was true. I really I went out on this sales thing and I just said, I'm going to drink and I'm going to see how it looks. And so once I once I started drinking again and then I started seeing how I was drinking, which was exactly the way I drank when I stopped the first time. And I would say and in in three months, less than three months probably, I was drinking in my basement alone again. Once I saw that, it was easy for me at that point to go, Oh, I'm back. Right? So but
here's the problem. And this is where we talk about crossing that line, okay? Is that I recognized in December of 2009 that I had a drinking problem and I could not stop my own drinking. I knew that. And now I drank all the way to July before I decided to come into the program again. So I drank for another solid. All right. The end of July, another solid six months where a lot of crap was happening in my life, a lot of stuff was going on. I talk about it. My marriage was, you know,
touch and go. Back in December was when my wife went to see a divorce attorney. You know, all this time I'm drinking. I'm trying to hide it from my wife and we're trying to go to marriage counseling. And I was a mess. So because I'm an alcoholic, I crossed that line again and there was nothing I could do about it. Right. Until circumstances got me to go back.
There were circumstances that got me to go back, but I had to hit a certain wall to get there and that's that's what we talk about, that that's how it works for me is that I can't go back. I'm a I'm a pickle. And no matter how much I want to be a cucumber, it does. It doesn't matter. It's just impossible possible for me to to even think about it.
So if you've just been thrown into the brine, you're still a pickle. Yeah. It doesn't matter Yeah, how fresh you are. right. Don't compare. Don't compare where I am in the pickling process. If Yeah. I've started the pickling process and really listen to Heather Paradise's podcast with Gillian Tietz. Really made me think back that my bottom was the awareness that I had a problem and that knowledge that this is very clear, that I have a problem was enough of a bottom for me, at least at the time.
Mm. That's, that's how I saw it. Having a problem in it by itself was as unacceptable enough for me to realize that things had to change, that that was enough to get me to stop. And I struggle with that for probably a good year, thinking I didn't deserve my spot in recovery because other people had more bona fides than me. Right. They went to they went to rehab and they had this and they had that, and they're bleeding from their ass. And and that type of stuff. And that wasn't
me. So I don't belong there. No, I was lucky that that was enough of an irritant, that it was okay, I got to stop. For some people, it's more, for some people it's less. And that's the thing to hold on to. If you have a curiosity here. If you're thinking, like Tim said, in terms of I drink, I want more, you're going to have to trust me here. That that's the abnormal reaction When my wife has a few sips of wine, she wants less.
Mm. I can not get my head around that mindset and that tells me I have a problem. Yeah. I'm willing to trust Mm. that.
Here. Here's how I know. And it's this sort of thing is I'm hyper focused on it. Right. So when I was hiking last Saturday, so basically seven days ago. Right. my wife went out while I was gone and got herself a bottle of wine. I think she finished up bottle of wine Wednesday night, small
So when
bottle,
did this start?
Saturday night.
Which was like a seven? Is it like the the
So
300
yes, I'm, I'm 5750.
or the 750?
Right. The small the regular bottle, right. Yeah.
Okay.
Right. So she got four. She got five and again five full days out of that bottle of wine which would have lasted me an hour. Oh, right,
You know, it would be in my head right. if I don't finish this, it's going to be go to waste because of oxidation. An.
Yeah, it might. It was never a problem. But that's where I look. And I remember watching that thing every time I open friends is sitting there so I could watch. Was not going down. Right. And again, because I'm an alcoholic, I'm hyperfocus on those things. So I notice how much that bottle goes down each day. And she would literally issue come out. And, you know, a
00 we'll sit down together, read a newspaper or watch the news or something, be watching something, and she'll have a glass of wine before dinner. And that's what you do and haven't
How long did it take her to drink the glass? I
Oh,
need to
it
know
takes
that
an hour, maybe 45 minutes at least. Yeah. Which is I think, Della, that's still something. That's the other thing that pisses me off. You could tell that I'm an alcoholic because I hate when she orders a second glass of wine at dinner because it takes her so long to finish it. U we're sitting there and we're done and she's two and she doesn't guzzle wine. Like I look out and I could just guzzle
right.
it and be done with it. She doesn't drink that way. And so I was like, I got to sit there and watch her drink when I want to be leaving the restaurant. I've been much more patient with that. And actually she's learned that she typically doesn't get to second class anymore. that's where she ends up leaving it behind. Which pisses me off cause then we paid for it and then she leaves it behind. It's
The only thing I'm thinking here is she's doing no it wrong. right.
That's
There's nothing
it.
right about how she's doing this in the process. Right? It's taking too long. It's taking too many days. Yeah. This
But
is not
that's a difference.
how you do it.
But that's a difference between her and I. Right? And you her know that. Yeah. She can do that. And I can't do that. I look, I listen, I, I've had those same bottles of wine. I, you know, I've always talked about it when I, at the end of my, my relapse when I, before I came in I was drinking the same wine as her, the same bottles, but mostly the same bottles. And they, none of them would last me more than a few hours at night I get home, you know, I was
working in an office that. But the by time I get home, it might be 6:00 and the bottle would be done. I would finish that bottle and probably more if I had more before I went to bed.
Sometimes I wouldn't finish the bottle, and I invested in vacuum tops. Some really good vacuum tops in a pump Yeah, that would give me the superficial peace of mind to allow me not to finish. right, And sometimes I would get to a certain point on the bottom. That's like, no matter how much more I want to finish this, I cannot. I must stop and stop it. Right, I will tell you, I got through most of the bottle.
Those it was almost like a I'm not going to drink the whole thing, but I basically drank the whole thing yeah, to say I didn't drink the whole thing. yeah. Oh, And yeah, then there were some nights that I couldn't, but that I realized that that whole vacuum top thing was a ruse to tell yeah, myself I didn't have a problem, that I could do it. And that's what would give me the permission, Nancy, because if I didn't have the vacuum top, then I have to I've wasted my money
because that will go bad. You right. can't put the cork in there. It's going to oxidize.
Yeah. And now again, I'll go back to anybody who might be listening to this. If you identify with any of this stuff. Right.
Mm hmm.
Those the things that, you know, you might want to look at and say maybe there's something going on. I mean, if you're if you if you look at a bottle of wine and think, oh, I'm going to stop if I finish it, because if I finish it that I'm an alcoholic. That is a little game we play with ourselves early on
Yes. Early
that,
on,
right? Yeah. That we you
20
know, that's when
years.
we start
You didn't
knowing
do that.
that we might be having a problem. So we start playing those games with ourselves.
Here's what's great for you. If you do have some stupid curiosity. And this wasn't available for me and it wasn't available for Steve, there are now alcohol free bars. Mm Alcohol free places that you can go out to these craft, non-alcoholic drinks that if you want to try that, that are not duals, that are not course cutter That is like, you know, a warmed over bathwater, that there is some stuff out there. There is. I actually would like
to have this guy on. I've been talking back and forth with a guy who lives in the Finger Lakes, and he never was much of a non-alcoholic guy, and now he's sort of embraced. I would like to try all these craft non alcoholic places and go from place to place and try these places that you can go have an alcohol free experience. That terrifies me, hmm. but I'm really interested in somebody doing that. And if that's the thing that might say, Well, I don't want to stop drinking because of the
experience. There are now places and beverages where you don't have to give up that experience. You just don't have the alcohol. If Right. that works for you, I will tell you right now it does not work for me. I'm not interested. Plus, I. don't like people and I don't like to be around people. And leaving the house is you know, that's a that's a difference. That's another personal defect I have
That
to work
is.
on. So there's that. But if you're curious, this is like the best time ever to do it and try out because you can remove the excuses of you don't need to have the alcohol to go do something fun. It's not like the alcohol free places are the uncool places now. They can be pretty cool. They just don't have any alcohol. And quite frankly, the people who don't have a problem, the the people who drink that one glass of wine over 2 hours to probably be happy enough to go to an alcoholic
Yeah,
bar with
absolutely.
you.
Yeah, I'm with you. It wouldn't work for me. I can't have anything that's, like, supposed to be alcohol and is make believe, not alcohol or, you know, is not alcohol supposed to be make believe alcohol And it just doesn't work. It's like why? It's the same reason why I don't drink non-alcoholic beer. If I drink it, it's going to taste like beer, right? If it's done right, it's going to taste
Mm
like
hmm.
beer. But it's not going to give me the buzz and it's going to mess with my brain is what it's going to do. My brain is going to be expecting the bugs to come with it. So there's no question about it. And and again, I could tell you that that's how it works for me, because
Yeah.
I did that during my 14 year of being sober. Right. I did drink two non-alcoholic beers and and I did do that. And I would go out to a bar and drink a little bit like I was drinking a regular beer, Like I wouldn't go there and sip on one. I'd go there and have three or four of them. Right? So it doesn't work for me. It's not something I'm interested in. But you're
absolutely right. If if it's something that if you don't have a problem, but you're looking to cut back or whatever, then it might be the perfect place for you to go check it out, have some fun and still and think about it. You go out, you can have some fun. I'm sure there's lots of activities you can do with it and you don't have to worry about the consequences of being pulled over or getting arrested. All the all the
hangovers that come with it. You don't think about with worry about putting on a few pounds because they're probably full of calories,
Oh, of course they are. Yeah, I feel the same way about decaf. I would love to hear your
yeah.
thoughts. You can reach out to us on the website, Sober Friends podcast on Instagram and threads at Sober Friends Pod or on Facebook at Sober Friends Pod. But mostly. And it was a sober. Honestly, Facebook is like a repeat of everything that goes on Instagram. You can reach out to us on Instagram and join the conversation. What your thoughts Are you sober, curious? Have you tried the non-alcoholic stuff? Do you feel differently when you
stopped? If you thought you were low bottom, then you do now. Steve, thanks for coming on. Thanks for making a great show.
Hey, Matt, t you.
All right. And we will see everybody next week. Bye, everybody. You're a creep. Get away from me.