E141: Triumph Over Adversity: From Addiction to Open Water Swims with Ben Tuff

Our guest is Ben Tough. He's a man whose life has been a dance between the land and the sea. He grew up between Atlanta, Georgia, and Jamestown, Rhode Island. I will tell you, I love Jamestown. It is one of the most beautiful places on the planet, especially in the summer. Ben's heart has always been drawn to the ocean. He met his girlfriend at Colby College. That's now his wife. He was a sailing instructor and a boat captain in the British

Virgin Islands. Ben's connection to the ocean deepened his influence didn't stop there, as did a dedicated educator. He touched the lives of numerous boarding students all around the world, leaving a lasting impact. However, there was more than life had in store for Ben. He made the chains change to stop drinking in 2012. It was a decision that would lead him down an unexpected path, one he

never imagined. And even though he couldn't swim at the time, the world of triathlons opened up for him in Marathon swimming. He has swum places like Providence to Jamestown, out to BLOCK Island. These are like places that I look. And I used to swim growing up, and I think of the whole idea of swimming that far. 24 miles is crazy. He's also a movie star. He has created the movie Swim Tough. How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle, Ben. Welcome to the Sober Friends podcast.

up drinking for forever. And it was because there was no way I had tried moderating dry January's. I had tried just having two or three drinks. I tried to be the D. None of it ever worked for me. And it took me going to an emergency room at 1030 in the morning after finishing drinking the night

time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up

everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like,

know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol

siblings. I can't other than now in the last like ten years of my sobriety, I can't remember a time growing up when they weren't drinking around me and drinking heavily around me. That was just a part of our life and a part of our lifestyle. It was like party hard. That's what

And it was great for me because I got to know so many different groups of people because on Monday night it was with the baseball players. On Tuesday night it was with the hippies. On Wednesday night it was with so-and-so. And you know,

And I would have panic attacks. I probably had 20 to 30 visits to the E.R. between the age of 12 and 18 in Atlanta. And it was just constantly things just anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. And, you know, my parents did throw

13. Like most I guess most men usually get diagnosed with bipolar in their twenties. And I had it actually a lot earlier on, and it just went undiagnosed. And I self-medicated with with alcohol

So it's kind of a different dynamic in the family and even the even the guy who comes to pick up the recycling at the end of the driveway in Jamestown, he said to me this summer, he was like, Wow, you guys have made some drastic changes because it's all polar, it's all polar seltzer cans. Instead of instead of the Budweiser's.

had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it.

I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar. Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar,

put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my

life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it.

swim. And maybe it's because I'm too stubborn, but I would not take a lesson and I wanted to figure it all out on myself. And and, you know, maybe that's the alcoholic piece of my brain that just said, Yeah, I just wanted to do it for myself and

can't feel that joy. And and and for me, I spent so much time and effort trying to dull that hurt. I couldn't ever feel the really good things either. You know, it just didn't just backfired but but right numb to all of it and and and now I've taught myself to go to a place that is almost sacred to me. And I pray on my swims, you know, I get off kilter if I ever go more than two days without swimming, like there is something wrong with me. And

says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to

have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I

get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say,

Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is. And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a

challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is

hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those things. And some of those things you accomplished are just

they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff.

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that.

and I throw it on my back. And I convinced myself I was just going to be drinking a bottle of vitamin water When I got home and I come in, I pull into the driveway, I chug that whole vitamin water, which was eight or nine ounces of vodka straight up, didn't even think about it. And to me it was like, Oh, that was just one drink. You know, we are just we are so good or I am so good at lying to myself about what I was doing and rationalizing it. Oh, no, I

needed that. It's been such a stressful day or I can't sleep without it or whatever the excuse might be. Know, and for me, the what I did to try to cling on to that right to drink in the future, even at that last minute when the whole gig was up, I remember the doctor left. I had said I would go, I'd go get help. And and I said to my wife, well, I could I could I can still have like a beer now and then or a couple of beers. Right. Like I can still do. And she was like,

ready to file for divorce. So get out of here. And that's when she looked at me straight and she said, It's either you get help and you never drink again and you will have us in your life or say goodbye to your kids and say goodbye to me, because that's that's where we're at right now. Yeah. And I went home after that visit and I was like, okay, let's set up the rehab. Let's do

this. And I got so deathly ill from detoxing that my wife took me back to the same hospital and they admitted me into the psych ward for seven days of detox, and I had no intention of going back there. But if, like I literally was going through the D ts, I was shaking, I was seeing things, I was it was just an absolutely miserable

experience. And the only way that I would have gotten through that is through medical help, because otherwise people don't understand that you will die or can very easily die when you're detoxing that hard. Yeah, and I am not in nature versus nurture kind of guy. Like as I know under I do understand with some people that that's a piece of it and I got brought up in an affluent family. You know, my dad was a turnaround CEO and we

went on great vacations. But I also got brought up in a British household and my dad's British. My mom is Canadian slash British. And you know, from day one, you know, I first had wine when I was probably eight years old or nine years old, just a little thimble of it with with Christmas dinner or what have you. And it was kind of like I was the youngest of six kids. I have an identical twin brother

and all my older siblings. I can't other than now in the last like ten years of my sobriety, I can't remember a time growing up when they weren't drinking around me and drinking heavily around me. That was just a part of our life and a part of our lifestyle. It was like party hard. That's what we do as a family. That's kind of like the conduit that brings us all together, lets us all hang out.

So when I was 16, it was it was on and both my my twin brother and I would take part in that family kind of gathering and especially the summers in Jamestown, because then with all my summer friends and and that created a kind of drinking scene as well. So the parents would all get together for their cocktail parties and the kids would go down to the fire and have their little cocktail parties. And it was all well and

good. And I wouldn't say, you know, I partied hard, but I was like a beer drinker and never really drank hard alcohol. Like even in college, I would find a way to rationalize going out and college. Like every single night I get home and I would finish all my homework and, you know, all my papers were done by four or five. And then I'd go to the pub or I'd go hang out with anybody who I could hang out

with that were drinking. And it was great for me because I got to know so many different groups of people because on Monday night it was with the baseball players. On Tuesday night it was with the hippies. On Wednesday night it was with so-and-so. And you know, up to that point that I had a lot of anxiety growing up to a lot of anxiety. And and it all manifested in hypochondria. And I was constantly worried that I

was dying of some disease. And I remember I had a worry and a worry sheet because my mom was like, just make a worry sheet and that'll help. And I constantly had a worry sheet of all my ailments and when I was going to die from them, right, I was convinced I had a brain tumor or kidney cancer or who knows what. So that started at 12 probably. And I would have panic attacks. I probably had 20 to 30 visits to the E.R. between the age of 12 and 18 in Atlanta. And it was just constantly things just

anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. And, you know, my parents did throw out the threat of, oh, okay. Then we're going to take you to a psychiatrist if this happens again. And of course, that happens again. And that was a huge it backfired big time because I went to like the scariest psychiatrist ever who was like 75 years old, had like a Swedish accent and like, big thick glasses. And his name was like, Yeah, I think his name was Sven, Dr. Sven or something. And he like, gave me the knife

degree all over. And when I left that office, I said, I'm never going to say a thing ever again to my parents about being anxious or having these feelings. And so I just kept it in a little bit further and and it wasn't until I really like 14 years ago, I started drinking alcohol, likely like hardcore, going through patterns of like one month on really drinking hard and in a couple of weeks off and then one month on. And it was just kind of like this up and down, depending on how I was

feeling emotionally. And it was my third day at rehab in Connecticut at Silver Hill Hospital. And my doctor was like, You're bipolar. Like you're textbook bipolar, and you have been since you were 13. Like most I guess most men usually get diagnosed with bipolar in their twenties. And I had it actually a lot earlier on, and it just went undiagnosed. And I self-medicated with with alcohol and I kind of had a double edged sword because I was self-medicating with alcohol.

But alcohol was also the one lubricant, the social lubricant that would keep me engaged in the social scene and relaxed and and, you know, the fun, easygoing guy that that I am. And now I'm finally able to do all of that even better without alcohol, which is something that is just baffling to me like that. I just never knew anything about it. And so I am in a family of of alcoholics and, you know, some of us have gotten sober and I've helped. I was the first one

to get sober in my family. And some have followed afterwards and has been very rewarding to help them get to where they need to go. But I didn't want to in no way have I put it upon them all. I just they came to me and said, I need help. And and it was at that point that I gave

them the help they needed. So it's kind of a different dynamic in the family and even the even the guy who comes to pick up the recycling at the end of the driveway in Jamestown, he said to me this summer, he was like, Wow, you guys have made some drastic changes because it's all polar, it's all polar seltzer cans. Instead of instead of the Budweiser's. well, for for me not to say I'm a masochist or anything, but I didn't want to

have an excuse, right? I didn't want to make an excuse for my past actions just because I was bipolar. I didn't want to say because I was having these feelings. It makes it okay what I did it. Maybe it makes it okay that I self-diagnosed myself and then self-medicate myself with alcohol. And so I find that I actually don't. Only recently have I started talking more about my bipolar because there are more people out there that can benefit from it.

But at the same time, I also have to own what I went through and in my actions while I went through it. And there's no saying really why I or when I made certain choices, whether it was because of my mental state or was it the alcoholic state in it doesn't really matter in the end, I guess. But for me, I found tremendous relief to know that when I am when I was swinging up and down over these, I was like a two or three week cycle that it was wasn't just me.

It was it was something that was going on within me medically that was producing it. Yeah. And the more I delve into it, especially with my my doctor, my psych psychology just is still my psychologist now that I had 11 years ago, the one who diagnosed me. And I've learned that the dysregulation in it is is relative to each person. So in other words, bipolar isn't

like a bull. It can't be a blanket statement like some people can just dysregulated just a little bit in the middle and yet not quite be bipolar. It's a spectrum. Exactly. And I think you can see this with with Asperger's or what any other kind of doctor all blanket statement and I just like to be careful with it because I don't like I don't like making excuses because if I made excuses, then that's not going to allow me to progress forward.

Oh, so he was five years behind me in going to Silver Hill, and he's he's sober as me and just not nearly as outspoken as I am and that I think, has something to do with this, who he kind of hangs out with and he kind of he likes to roll with like well known people and and and you know, get across the world and private jets and all that. And so he's not a he never drinks but he doesn't ever talk. He doesn't talk that openly about

his sobriety. The first time he actually did was at the in the movie when he talks about when I picked him up and in on his way back from the Turks and Caicos and and got him into rehab and and kind of got him sorted out and I think is his his quote was, you know, the best thing about sobriety is you learn how to live, but it's just really hard to get. And I think that that's a very true statement for for some of us, you know, it is hard to get and it's taken a lot for

us to get to where we are. But in the end, what we or who we are as human beings is one, at least for me, 100 times better than the one I was. I was I was a frail mess, curled up on the couch like drooling on myself. It was just so sad.

Yeah. So my first sponsor, I was told the fourth or fifth day at Silver Hill, we went to an open meeting in town at the church at 730 in the morning and I was told that I had to come home with a sponsor, a temporary sponsor, and that was like my homework assignment if I wanted to see my family that weekend. You know, you had like, your checklist and I was like, boom, I'll get it done. And I felt like I was getting ready for like a dating show or something. It was like, Oh my God, who am I

going to pick? Who am I going to pick? There's like 100 people in this room. And I heard this guy with an Irish accent. His name is Ken, and he start talking about his triathlon experience and he just was smart and he was like, no B.S.. Like, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, This is the kind of guy that I need. I want someone who's going to run me through the steps and I want someone who I can relate to and who I can look up to as well. And so I went up to him afterwards and I said, Will you

be my temporary sponsor? And he was like, Absolutely, totally. And I said, Do you think I can learn how to swim? Because I want to be a triathlete and I know how to bike and I know how to run, but I can't swim. It was like I didn't know how to swim either. Guaranteed you can figure it out in two or three months. So right after I got out of rehab, I went to the pool every day and taught myself to swim. And maybe it's because I'm too stubborn, but I would not take a lesson and I wanted to

figure it all out on myself. And and, you know, maybe that's the alcoholic piece of my brain that just said, Yeah, I just wanted to do it for myself and figure it out. And I didn't want anyone else get in my way. I wanted it to be my journey. That's it. And I figured it out pretty quickly and I went from half a length in the pool to going about a half mile in about two and a half

months. And that's when my ventures in triathlon started for about seven years, all the way, you know, to the national championship. I was, you know, top 10% of the country. But the truth is, my wife decided to start to do triathlons as well. And she started to do half diamonds and Ironman. And we did a half Ironman in Maine. And she beat me by like 13 minutes. Okay. Like it wasn't even close. And I was like, I'm done. I'm done with triathlons, like, and I was getting really competitive

anyway. I was like, trying to beat everyone there. It was just getting it was getting silly. And it's like, I kind of just like to swim. Like, I'm just going to swim from now on. And so I did a two mile swim. And in Rhode Island, the Save the Bay swim from Newport to Jamestown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's tons of fun. And then I was like, That's easy. I'll do the swim around Key West, which was 12 and a half miles. And my, my daughter came down and we kind of had a fun vacation and

did it around it. And that's when the kind of big swim started like swimming around Jamestown, which is 21 miles and then swim from BLOCK Island to Jamestown, which was 19 miles. And then being the first person to ever swim, all of Narragansett Bay, which was just over 23 miles. And I'm still not a great swimmer. If, like every time I watch my movie, I can't even watch the swimming parts, like the underwater parts because it's just like kills me because I'm like, oh, my gosh,

my catch is wrong. Like, my pull is wrong, my kick is awful. I need to rotate more. Like, that's all I do with my head is, is that like, perfectionist? Yeah. So that's what what I found for me is swimming is a place that I can disappear. I was not. I failed. The yoga and mindfulness pieces in in rehab, like they said, okay, Sunday afternoon we're going to have mindfulness where we all just sit still and and, and just kind of zone out and do our thing and I couldn't

do it. But in the water I can do it for hours and hours and hours. And at the same time, I love my doing these swims because it reminds me of the pain that I went through with alcoholism when I hit that wall, You know, coming back from doing the last swim, it was probably 13 miles into the swim. And my shoulder was like killing me. And I wasn't moving. I was stuck against the current, you know, I was like, this is the worst thing in the whole world, but

it's also the best. And even looking back at it, I was like, because life is about hurting as well as enjoying it. Because if you don't have that hurt, you can't feel that joy. And and and for me, I spent so much time and effort trying to dull that hurt. I couldn't ever feel the really good things either. You know, it just didn't just backfired but but right numb to all of it and and and now I've taught myself to go to a place that is almost

sacred to me. And I pray on my swims, you know, I get off kilter if I ever go more than two days without swimming, like there is something wrong with me. And my wife will even say, Ben, go for a swim, get out of here and go for a swim so I can get out of my head. And you know, with the stress of I quit my job after 21 years. I quit my job mid-year to make a movie and to go out and and make try and make a living off of speaking about it and showing it to people and

change lives. And it's very stressful to start something anew. But at the same time, that's what life is all about. And, and, and that's what sobriety has taught me. right? And for me, it's all about I just want people to find their thing. I just want them to find their adventure. And it's not it's not always going to be swimming 23, 24 miles. You know, it can be going for a walk. It can be just like doing your first jog for for a quarter of a mile. Who cares? Whatever it is,

just find it. Because once again, that's what makes us human. And we have to cling on to these this idea of being human because we as drinkers have spent so much time dulling the understanding and the comprehension of what being human is all about. So let's learn it all over again. And I had a great chat with with someone, you know, I'm a huge prescriber to smart meaning smart recovery to AA. I just happened to get sober with AA and did my 1990, and that's

worked really well for me. And it's living in southern Vermont. It's the most accessible for me to go to meetings. And this gentleman who's 80, 81 years old, came to me after the meeting and he said, Well, you're going against the anonymity piece. And I said, Well, actually, I'm not. If Bill Wilson, he actually went out of his way to not be anonymous anymore, and I'm not breaking anyone else's anonymity.

I'm just breaking my own, because when I got sober, I was around who didn't know what an alcoholic was, and they pictured a bum on the streets. And they need to have every human being needs to have someone to look up to in whatever role they are, you know, an alcoholic or or whatever label you want to put

on a human. And if I can let them know that, hey, if there's ever trouble down the road and you have a problem or your friend has a problem or a family member has a problem, you can call me and you can you can come to me in this in the last three months, I've taken four kids to rehab all of my former students, because either their parents or they themselves reached out to me and said, We need help. And and and so I'm starting to see

finally see some traction. And that, to me, is the most rewarding piece in the and the kind of driving piece for me to get up in front of these kids because I just want to be like, Dude, that guy is awesome and he's an alcoholic. And and in the movie, one of my favorite lines that I say is that like, I'm the proudest alcoholic in this planet and I'm so happy to

be that person. And if there's anyone else who can compete with me for that title, then come along for the ride because we need you as well. Mm hmm. Well, thank you notes. It's awesome. And it it is always. There are many I called it kind of like my Trojan horse. You know, this is like the the vehicle that is getting me hopefully into these schools and into these businesses and into these rehabs. And then once I get that, like,

I just want to talk. I just want to like my favorite part, believe it or not, is yeah, I love to see the reactions when when the crowd watches the movie and they they kind of clap and do their thing. But my favorite part is answering their questions because it's the one time that we can just be totally honest with one another and that I can address individual concerns. And I went and talked to a fraternity down at University of Georgia and everyone thought

I was crazy. Like, you're going into like the K house, like a nutso place. And I had 120 kids show up. And I, I didn't even I just spoke to them and told them about my journey. And after words, I had probably 35 emails from those guys saying, thank you, what a difference it made. Like finally, it wasn't someone preaching to me. And then a lot of the guys just asking questions. Well, so-and-so's like really into this. And like it's I think it's becoming a problem. How do I know if it's a

problem? And some like difficult questions. And I was like, wow, if we can have that hour and a half together and they have that with me already, like boom, let's do it. So my Instagram, I have I have fun with that because my twin brother, he was in social media and he's like, You have to do something with your Instagram because you have three posts. So now I have so much fun posting my kind of daily journey on Instagram and it's at Ben Dot

tough. And then again, I'm an open book and I want people to to reach out to me. And you can reach out to me at Ben Tuff at Swim tough com and I'll get right back to you and and maybe it's just a question about a loved one question about yourself or maybe you just want to learn how to swim. It doesn't matter. I'm an open book. Absolutely. No, thank you.

right. And for those of us who follow the program of recovery that's in our that's in our literature is to be useful to our you know, to our fellows. And and that's why I try to get up every day and like, try to be useful to other people without any, you know, any anything that looking for any reciprocation or anything like that, just to be useful and helpful to other people. So. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with your life to. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gig's up. Yeah. Yeah, I. I heard you tell that. That's an amazing story. I heard you tell that, you know, one of your other podcasts that you were on, and it's such a it's such a really it's just that everybody can relate to that, right? Like, you know, sit there and go, Oh, shit, You know, I was drinking the night before and you could say, Hey, I wasn't drinking. But to be told that in front of your wife, who had no clue, I too was a closet drinker.

My wife didn't know half the time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up there. No gigs up. Hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was,

like, on the bus. You did a lot of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing.

Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did

something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she

had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for

12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know, still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she

could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Well, well. One of the things that happens to in that time is right there. Alcohol blurs. What we think is important in our lives, right? I mean, we really can't see through that haze of alcohol to figure out what we're really

interested in at all. And and I to you know, Ben, as I say to myself today, my biggest purpose in life is to be useful to other people. Right. That's what I want to be. I want to be useful right. And for those of us who follow the program of recovery that's in our that's in our literature is to be useful to our you know, to our fellows.

And and that's why I try to get up every day and like, try to be useful to other people without any, you know, any anything that looking for any reciprocation or anything like that, just to be useful and helpful to other people. So. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with your life to. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gig's up. Yeah. Yeah, I. I heard you tell that.

That's an amazing story. I heard you tell that, you know, one of your other podcasts that you were on, and it's such a it's such a really it's just that everybody can relate to that, right? Like, you know, sit there and go, Oh, shit, You know, I was drinking the night before and you could say, Hey, I wasn't drinking. But to be told that in front of your wife, who had no clue, I too was a closet drinker. My wife didn't know half the time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to

that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up there. No gigs up. Hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was, like, on the bus. You did a lot

of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing.

Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did

something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she

had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for

12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know, still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she

could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Wow. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was, like, on the bus. You did a lot of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different

committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing. Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's

all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really

mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And

that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for 12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know,

still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a

normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Oh, yeah. You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a

normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine

drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the

boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make

that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's

all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely.

conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down.

It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too.

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I

empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I yeah.

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal.

Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and

triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. this is the conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your

life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down. It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it

felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too. I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got

nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life

threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. this is the conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your

life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down. It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it

felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too. I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got

nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life

threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too.

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I

empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I yeah.

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal.

Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and

triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into