E141: Triumph Over Adversity: From Addiction to Open Water Swims with Ben Tuff - podcast episode cover

E141: Triumph Over Adversity: From Addiction to Open Water Swims with Ben Tuff

Aug 22, 202355 minEp. 141
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Dive into an inspiring and transformative journey as Ben Tuff of the movie, "Swim Tuff, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle," shares his story of battling addiction and emerging victorious through open water swims. In this captivating podcast episode, we explore Ben's struggle with alcoholism, his path to sobriety, and the unexpected but profound role that open water swimming played in his recovery.

Matt and Steve sit down with Ben Tuff to delve into his compelling narrative. From hitting rock bottom to finding hope through rehabilitation, Ben opens up about his early days of sobriety. Join them as they discuss the significance of sponsors and the turning point that pushed Ben to conquer his fear of swimming, eventually leading him to triathlons and open water challenges.

Ben's determination and resilience shine as he recounts the arduous yet rewarding journey of training and participating in various open water swims, including the awe-inspiring Narragansett Bay swim. You'll hear about the struggles, the pain, and the unyielding commitment that led Ben to achieve remarkable feats.

Discover how the challenges Ben faced in sobriety mirror the challenges he embraced during his open water swims. Uncover the deep connection between pushing physical boundaries and facing life's obstacles head-on. The hosts and guest delve into themes of perseverance, pain, joy, and the profound realization that embracing both the highs and lows of life is essential for growth.

As Ben Tuff shares his personal insights, you will be moved by the power of transformation and the importance of embracing adversity. Join the conversation as they explore how breaking down stigmas around addiction and mental health can reshape our understanding of recovery and inspire countless individuals seeking their own triumph over adversity.

Tune in to this episode as it unearths the remarkable parallels between conquering addiction and conquering open water, leaving listeners with a newfound appreciation for life's challenges and the strength within each of us to overcome them.

Key Takeaways:

  • Uncover the journey of recovery from addiction to sobriety, guided by sponsors and resilience.
  • Explore the unexpected role of open water swimming in personal transformation.
  • Gain insights into the connection between pushing physical boundaries and facing life's challenges.
  • Reflect on the power of embracing adversity and the value of the pain-joy dynamic.
  • Break down stigmas around addiction, mental health, and the potential for change.

Join us for an inspiring conversation with Ben Tuff that reminds us that every challenge is an opportunity for growth and that the triumph of the human spirit knows no bounds.

Check out Ben's website: Swimtuff.com
Ben on Instragram: @ben.tuff
Ben's Email: [email protected]

Support the show

📫 Get more honest conversations about sobriety delivered to your inbox! Subscribe to The Sober Friends Dispatch, our weekly newsletter where we go beyond the podcast to share real strategies for alcohol-free living. Join our community by clicking here.

Transcript

Ben Tuff

it took me going to an emergency room at 1030 in the morning after finishing drinking the night before at 9:00 and my wife had no idea that I was drinking and I had a blood alcohol content that was twice the legal limit and they wouldn't admit me to the hospital. And the doctor said, We can't admit you because your blood alcohol is so high. And my wife looked over at me like, What the hell? And I was like, Oh, everything is up. It's all over. It's done.

Matt

All right. Wait until you hear this introduction today, because if you're the type of guy like me when I got sober that you only thought people who are living on the streets were bums, who have the trench coats, the long beards, they don't wash. Those are the people who are alcoholics. Where we're going to break some stereotypes today. If you're one of those people who consider themselves grey area, you may not see yourself as a low bottom alcoholic. You're going to enjoy our guests today.

Our guest is Ben Tough. He's a man whose life has been a dance between the land and the sea. He grew up between Atlanta, Georgia, and Jamestown, Rhode Island. I will tell you, I love Jamestown. It is one of the most beautiful places on the planet, especially in the summer. Ben's heart has always been drawn to the ocean. He met his girlfriend at Colby College. That's now his wife. He was a sailing instructor and a boat captain in the British

Virgin Islands. Ben's connection to the ocean deepened his influence didn't stop there, as did a dedicated educator. He touched the lives of numerous boarding students all around the world, leaving a lasting impact. However, there was more than life had in store for Ben. He made the chains change to stop drinking in 2012. It was a decision that would lead him down an unexpected path, one he

never imagined. And even though he couldn't swim at the time, the world of triathlons opened up for him in Marathon swimming. He has swum places like Providence to Jamestown, out to BLOCK Island. These are like places that I look. And I used to swim growing up, and I think of the whole idea of swimming that far. 24 miles is crazy. He's also a movie star. He has created the movie Swim Tough. How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle, Ben. Welcome to the Sober Friends podcast.

Ben Tuff

Thank you very much for having me and thank you for that grand introduction. I too, thought that my life was going to be

Matt

That's

Ben Tuff

somewhat

Matt

right.

Ben Tuff

boring

Matt

You've

Ben Tuff

when

Matt

got

Ben Tuff

I got

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

sober

Matt

got big standards

Ben Tuff

and be like,

Matt

here,

Ben Tuff

What

Matt

and

Ben Tuff

am

Matt

I've

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

heard

Ben Tuff

going to

Matt

you on

Ben Tuff

do

Matt

other

Ben Tuff

now?

Matt

podcast,

Ben Tuff

Who

Steve

Mm

Matt

you

Steve

hmm.

Matt

will

Ben Tuff

am I

Matt

deliver,

Ben Tuff

going to hang out with? Like,

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

what am I going to do to fill all this time?

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

And the total opposite

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

happened.

Matt

know,

Ben Tuff

And instead, I now find that my life is filled with purpose and is filled with activity. And for me, that is what gets me going. When I wake up every single morning instead of that hangover that was kind of lingering from the night or day before.

Steve

Yeah.

Matt

this is the conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think

Steve

Well.

Matt

I don't want to do

Steve

Well,

Matt

this,

Steve

well. One

Matt

I'm

Steve

of the things

Matt

going

Steve

that happens

Matt

to be boring.

Steve

to in

Matt

How

Steve

that time

Matt

does life

Steve

is right there.

Matt

go

Steve

Alcohol

Matt

on without

Steve

blurs.

Matt

alcohol?

Steve

What we think is important

Matt

Your

Steve

in our

Matt

life

Steve

lives,

Matt

is going

Steve

right?

Matt

to get

Steve

I mean,

Matt

better.

Steve

we really

Matt

All the

Steve

can't

Matt

things

Steve

see

Matt

that you're

Steve

through

Matt

worried

Steve

that

Matt

about

Steve

haze

Matt

not happening,

Steve

of alcohol

Matt

that you have

Steve

to

Matt

to hang on

Steve

figure

Matt

to the drink

Steve

out

Matt

for

Steve

what we're really

Matt

are all

Steve

interested

Matt

the things you're

Steve

in

Matt

going

Steve

at

Matt

to

Steve

all.

Matt

get

Steve

And

Matt

because you put the drink down.

Steve

and I to you know, Ben,

Matt

It's counterintuitive,

Steve

as I

Matt

but yeah,

Steve

say to

Matt

you

Steve

myself

Matt

have

Steve

today,

Matt

one hell of a

Steve

my

Matt

story

Steve

biggest purpose in life is to be useful to other people. Right. That's what I want to be. I want to be useful right. And for those of us who follow the program of recovery that's in our that's in our literature is to be useful to our you know, to our fellows. And and that's why I try to get up every day and like, try to be useful to other people without any, you know, any anything that looking for any reciprocation or anything like that, just to be useful and helpful to other people. So. And

Ben Tuff

Right.

Steve

it sounds like that's

Ben Tuff

And

Steve

what you're

Ben Tuff

the

Steve

trying

Ben Tuff

best

Steve

to do with

Ben Tuff

part

Steve

your life

Ben Tuff

is

Steve

to.

Ben Tuff

that, you know, I have a sober group of friends and I also have a group of friends, a lot of group of friends who still drink and I call when they kind of drink around me, I can give them a hard time. After 11 years of this, I'd be like, That's a shortcut. You know? You know that people who who rely on alcohol are actually the boring ones because they don't know how to have real connection anymore. And and for me, I had a huge learning curve because I had I drank from

Matt

and

Ben Tuff

the age of 16 all the way to 33, and I didn't know how to make those social connections without the facilitator of

Steve

Mm

Ben Tuff

alcohol.

Steve

hmm.

Ben Tuff

But once I did understand it and once

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

I did put it together and having a sober network really helped me do that because I was constantly surrounded by people who are making the same decision as I was. It was like, Oh my gosh, I've been missing out on this. This, this whole time. And I had flashbacks of like when I was 15, going camping

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

with my buddies and just having those true laughter and, and, and true connection with one another of that, like brotherhood and being like, Wow, this is so cool.

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

Mm hmm. Yeah. And because I work with so many people who are either

Matt

that's what

Ben Tuff

afraid

Matt

you know,

Ben Tuff

to

Matt

It's

Ben Tuff

take

Matt

funny

Ben Tuff

that

Matt

you said

Ben Tuff

leap

Matt

that it

Ben Tuff

or

Matt

felt like that for

Ben Tuff

are

Matt

me when I got

Ben Tuff

out

Matt

sober.

Ben Tuff

of the need

Matt

Like I'm

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

going

Ben Tuff

their

Matt

back

Ben Tuff

health

Matt

to

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

my

Ben Tuff

the

Matt

childhood.

Ben Tuff

well-being of their loved

Matt

I'm

Ben Tuff

ones,

Matt

going back

Ben Tuff

they

Matt

to

Ben Tuff

have

Matt

the things

Ben Tuff

to

Matt

that

Ben Tuff

take

Matt

brought

Ben Tuff

that

Matt

me

Ben Tuff

leap.

Matt

joy.

Ben Tuff

I would say

Matt

Before

Ben Tuff

that that's

Matt

alcohol

Ben Tuff

the

Matt

came into my life

Ben Tuff

biggest

Matt

and

Ben Tuff

barrier

Matt

it felt so weird.

Ben Tuff

to entry of the sober

Matt

I don't

Ben Tuff

world.

Matt

think I've articulated that until I heard

Ben Tuff

And

Matt

you say that

Ben Tuff

even

Matt

right now.

Ben Tuff

in the those who are looking to moderate

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

their drinking, because, you know, I am not a one size fits all kind of person. And and I just want humans to make the best decisions for themselves. I know for me that the moderation thing would not

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

work. There's no way that I could just have one beer and and be totally fine or a drink and go on or two drinks. That's just not who I am. But for others, that might work. And it's all about taking that that leap of faith and I had been holding back for so long that it I think that we as alcoholics, as a group not to speak for all of us, but for me, we said, yeah, that was my that was my rock bottom. You know, I had to hit that rock bottom to understand where I was to give

up drinking for forever. And it was because there was no way I had tried moderating dry January's. I had tried just having two or three drinks. I tried to be the D. None of it ever worked for me. And it took me going to an emergency room at 1030 in the morning after finishing drinking the night

before at 9

00 and my wife had no idea that I was drinking and I had a blood alcohol content that was twice the legal limit and they wouldn't admit me to the hospital. And the doctor said, We can't admit you because your blood alcohol is so high. And my wife looked over at me like, What the hell? And I was like, Oh, everything is up. It's all over. It's done. See,

Steve

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

that was it?

Steve

yeah. Yeah. Gig's up. Yeah. Yeah, I. I heard you tell that. That's an amazing story. I heard you tell that, you know, one of your other podcasts that you were on, and it's such a it's such a really it's just that everybody can relate to that, right? Like, you know, sit there and go, Oh, shit, You know, I was drinking the night before and you could say, Hey, I wasn't drinking. But to be told that in front of your wife, who had no clue, I too was a closet drinker. My wife didn't know half the

time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up

Ben Tuff

Yeah.

Steve

there. No gigs up. Hmm.

Matt

Me too.

Steve

Right.

Matt

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper.

Ben Tuff

Yeah. And,

Matt

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

you

Matt

yeah,

Ben Tuff

know,

Matt

yeah.

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

We did

Ben Tuff

me,

Matt

this

Ben Tuff

as an

Matt

test.

Ben Tuff

alcoholic,

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

Here

Ben Tuff

relied

Matt

it is.

Ben Tuff

on dishonesty

Steve

Yeah.

Matt

The blood

Ben Tuff

and.

Matt

alcohol level

Ben Tuff

And

Matt

is 0.8.

Ben Tuff

the lack of trust

Matt

You're double

Ben Tuff

in

Matt

that. You're

Ben Tuff

everything

Matt

really

Ben Tuff

that I

Matt

messed

Ben Tuff

did

Matt

up.

Ben Tuff

and my whole

Matt

And

Ben Tuff

life, because

Matt

to

Ben Tuff

it

Matt

have

Ben Tuff

was a secret

Matt

that,

Ben Tuff

not

Matt

I got nothing

Ben Tuff

only

Matt

here.

Ben Tuff

to those around

Matt

I got

Steve

Yeah.

Matt

nothing.

Ben Tuff

me,

Matt

I'm living another

Ben Tuff

but

Matt

life

Ben Tuff

also

Matt

that

Ben Tuff

to myself.

Matt

you don't know about.

Ben Tuff

You. I would go to the

Matt

That's.

Ben Tuff

liquor store.

Matt

I

Ben Tuff

I would buy

Matt

hear that.

Ben Tuff

two vitamin

Matt

And

Ben Tuff

waters.

Matt

I empathize

Ben Tuff

I'd sit them

Matt

there.

Ben Tuff

down

Matt

I'm

Ben Tuff

the

Matt

like,

Ben Tuff

the label.

Matt

Oh,

Ben Tuff

I'd buy

Matt

that's

Ben Tuff

a

Matt

a

Ben Tuff

pint

Matt

kick

Ben Tuff

of

Matt

to the gut.

Ben Tuff

vodka. I would fill it up. I'd throw the ball away, I'd seal up the vitamin waters. I put them in my backpack on each side of my Patagonia backpack, and I throw it on my back. And I convinced myself I was just going to be drinking a bottle of vitamin water When I got home and I come in, I pull into the driveway, I chug that whole vitamin water,

Steve

Wow.

Ben Tuff

which was eight or nine ounces of vodka straight up, didn't even think about it. And to me it was like, Oh, that was just one drink. You know, we are just we are so good or I am so

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

good at

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

lying to myself about what I

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

was doing and rationalizing it. Oh, no, I needed that. It's been such a stressful day or I can't sleep without it or whatever the excuse might be.

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

And then you.

Steve

Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story

Matt

And it becomes

Steve

here before.

Matt

a normal

Steve

I'll tell

Matt

part

Steve

it really quickly

Matt

of your day

Steve

is that I was

Matt

that

Steve

big

Matt

that

Steve

in church

Matt

is

Steve

for

Matt

your

Steve

a long

Matt

routine,

Steve

time. I was, like,

Matt

that

Steve

on

Matt

you go

Steve

the bus.

Matt

to the liquor

Steve

You did a

Matt

store,

Steve

lot of stuff at

Matt

that

Steve

church,

Matt

you you dumped

Steve

and.

Matt

the ball,

Steve

And

Matt

you

Steve

I

Matt

put

Steve

was

Matt

it in

Steve

really

Matt

the VitaminWater,

Steve

deep

Matt

you chug it

Steve

into

Matt

down,

Steve

my

Matt

you

Steve

alcoholism,

Matt

go in the house,

Steve

too, at the same

Matt

and

Steve

time.

Matt

then you start to believe

Steve

And

Matt

that,

Steve

I used to run

Matt

well,

Steve

different

Matt

that's what

Steve

organ,

Matt

normal behavior

Steve

different committees

Matt

is. Everybody

Steve

at church.

Matt

does that.

Steve

And at the end

Matt

No,

Steve

of it, just,

Matt

this

Steve

just

Matt

is

Steve

before

Matt

wildly

Steve

I came

Matt

abnormal

Steve

in the first time,

Matt

behavior.

Steve

I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and

Ben Tuff

Know,

Steve

I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing. Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not

everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like,

Ben Tuff

and

Steve

Oh, yeah, I did something similar

Ben Tuff

for me,

Steve

to that. It's

Ben Tuff

the

Steve

just crazy, crazy stuff.

Ben Tuff

what I did to try to cling on to that right to drink in the future, even at that last minute when the whole gig was up, I remember the doctor left.

Steve

MM

Ben Tuff

I had said I would go, I'd go get help. And and I said to my wife, well, I could I could I can still have like a beer Yeah. now and then or a couple of beers. Right. Like I can still do. And she was like, ready to

Steve

Yeah, yeah,

Ben Tuff

file for divorce. So get out of here. And that's

Steve

yeah,

Ben Tuff

when she looked at me straight and she

Steve

yeah,

Ben Tuff

said, It's either you get help and you never drink again and you will have us in your life or say goodbye to your kids and say goodbye to me, because that's that's where we're at Yeah,

Steve

yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she had had enough. And she didn't

know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol

Ben Tuff

right

Steve

after

Ben Tuff

now.

Steve

not drinking for 12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know, still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, yeah.

Ben Tuff

Yeah.

Steve

now

Ben Tuff

And

Steve

this is

Ben Tuff

I

Steve

like 12 hours

Ben Tuff

went home

Steve

after I stopped

Ben Tuff

after

Steve

drinking,

Ben Tuff

that

Steve

and

Ben Tuff

visit

Steve

I'm still double

Ben Tuff

and I was

Steve

the

Ben Tuff

like,

Steve

limit.

Ben Tuff

okay, let's set up the rehab.

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

Let's do this. And I got so deathly ill from detoxing that my wife took me back to the same hospital and they admitted me into the psych ward for seven days And of detox, and I had no intention of going back there. But if, like I literally was going through the D ts, I was shaking, I was seeing things, I was it

Steve

Oh,

Ben Tuff

was

Steve

yeah.

Ben Tuff

just an absolutely I miserable experience. And the only way that I would have gotten through that is through medical help, because otherwise people don't understand that you will die or can very easily die when you're detoxing that hard.

Steve

You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. yeah.

Ben Tuff

And you have.

Matt

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did

Steve

Yeah,

Matt

that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening

Steve

absolutely.

Matt

and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending

Ben Tuff

Yeah,

Matt

on

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that,

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

am not

Matt

might

Ben Tuff

in

Matt

have

Ben Tuff

nature versus

Matt

big

Ben Tuff

nurture

Matt

withdrawal symptoms,

Ben Tuff

kind of guy.

Matt

you might

Ben Tuff

Like

Matt

not.

Ben Tuff

as

Matt

But if you

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

have

Ben Tuff

know

Matt

them,

Ben Tuff

under I

Matt

you must

Ben Tuff

do understand

Matt

seek medical

Ben Tuff

with

Matt

care.

Ben Tuff

some

Matt

This could be

Ben Tuff

people

Matt

life threatening.

Ben Tuff

that that's

Matt

You

Ben Tuff

a piece

Matt

could

Ben Tuff

of

Matt

die

Ben Tuff

it

Matt

from

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

alcohol withdrawal.

Ben Tuff

I got brought up in

Matt

Some you've

Ben Tuff

an affluent

Matt

you're very lucky.

Ben Tuff

family.

Matt

Ben, tell me a little

Ben Tuff

You

Matt

bit

Ben Tuff

know, my

Matt

about

Ben Tuff

dad

Matt

growing

Ben Tuff

was

Matt

up.

Ben Tuff

a turnaround

Matt

What

Ben Tuff

CEO

Matt

was the family like?

Ben Tuff

and we went

Matt

What

Ben Tuff

on

Matt

got

Ben Tuff

great

Matt

you to

Ben Tuff

vacations.

Matt

this point? What

Ben Tuff

But

Matt

moved

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

it to the

Ben Tuff

also

Matt

place

Ben Tuff

got

Matt

where

Ben Tuff

brought

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

up

Matt

might

Ben Tuff

in

Matt

start drinking?

Ben Tuff

a British household and my dad's British. My mom is Canadian slash British. And you know, from day one, you know, I first had wine when I was probably eight years old or nine years old, just a little thimble of it with with Christmas dinner or what have you. And it was kind of like I was the youngest of six kids. I have an identical twin brother and all my older

siblings. I can't other than now in the last like ten years of my sobriety, I can't remember a time growing up when they weren't drinking around me and drinking heavily around me. That was just a part of our life and a part of our lifestyle. It was like party hard. That's what

Steve

Mm

Ben Tuff

we do as a family. That's kind of like the conduit that brings us all together, lets us all hang out. So when I was 16, it was it was on and both my my twin brother and I would

Steve

hmm.

Ben Tuff

take part in that family kind of gathering and especially the summers in Jamestown, because then with all my summer friends and and that created a kind of drinking scene as well. So the parents would all get together for their cocktail parties and the kids would go down to the fire and have their little cocktail parties. And it was all well and good.

Steve

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

And I wouldn't say, you know, I partied hard, but I was like a beer drinker and never really drank hard alcohol. Like even in college, I would find a way to rationalize going out and college. Like every single night I get home and I would finish all my homework and, you know, all my papers were done by four or five. And then I'd go to the pub or I'd go hang out with anybody who I could hang out with that were drinking.

And it was great for me because I got to know so many different groups of people because on Monday night it was with the baseball players. On Tuesday night it was with the hippies. On Wednesday night it was with so-and-so. And you know,

Steve

you're

Ben Tuff

up to that

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

point that I

Steve

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

had a lot of anxiety growing up to a lot of anxiety. And and it all manifested in hypochondria. And I was constantly worried that I was dying of some disease. And I remember I had a worry and a worry sheet because my mom was like, just make a worry sheet and that'll help. And I constantly had a worry sheet of all my ailments and when I was going to die from them, right, I was convinced I had a brain tumor or kidney cancer or who knows what. So that started at 12 probably.

And I would have panic attacks. I probably had 20 to 30 visits to the E.R. between the age of 12 and 18 in Atlanta. And it was just constantly things just anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. And, you know, my parents did throw

Matt

What

Ben Tuff

out

Matt

are

Ben Tuff

the

Matt

we talking

Ben Tuff

threat

Matt

about

Ben Tuff

of,

Matt

for age

Ben Tuff

oh, okay.

Matt

when

Ben Tuff

Then

Matt

you're doing this?

Ben Tuff

we're going to take you to a psychiatrist if this happens again. And of course, that happens again. And that was a huge it backfired big time because I went to like the scariest psychiatrist ever who was like 75 years old, had like a Swedish accent and like, big thick glasses. And his name was like, Yeah, I think his name was Sven, Dr. Sven or something. And he like,

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

gave me the knife degree all over. And when I left that office, I said, I'm never going to say a thing ever again to my parents about being anxious or having these feelings. And so I just kept it in a little bit further and and

Matt

Freud himself.

Ben Tuff

it wasn't until I really like 14 years ago, I started drinking alcohol, likely like hardcore, going through patterns of like one month on really drinking hard and in a couple of weeks off and then one month on. And it was just kind of like this up and down, depending on how I was feeling emotionally. And it was my third day at rehab in Connecticut at Silver Hill Hospital. And my doctor was like, You're bipolar. Like you're textbook bipolar, and you have been since you were

13. Like most I guess most men usually get diagnosed with bipolar in their twenties. And I had it actually a lot earlier on, and it just went undiagnosed. And I self-medicated with with alcohol

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

and I kind of had a double edged sword because I was self-medicating with alcohol. But alcohol was also the one lubricant, the social lubricant that would keep me engaged in the social scene and relaxed and and, you know, the fun, easygoing guy that that I am. And now I'm finally able to do all of that even better without alcohol, which is something that is just baffling to me like that. I just never

Steve

Mm.

Ben Tuff

knew anything about it. And so I am in a family of of alcoholics and, you know, some of us have gotten sober and I've helped. I was the first one to get sober in my family. And some have followed afterwards and has been very rewarding to help them get to where they need to go. But I didn't want to in no way have I put it upon them all. I just they came to me and said, I need help. And and it Oh, was at that point that I gave them the help they needed.

So it's kind of a different dynamic in the family and even the even the guy who comes to pick up the recycling at the end of the driveway in Jamestown, he said to me this summer, he was like, Wow, you guys have made some drastic changes because it's all polar, it's all polar seltzer cans. Instead of instead of the Budweiser's.

Steve

Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we

had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it.

I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar. Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar,

Ben Tuff

Yeah,

Steve

like all there's a name for it and now I could address

Ben Tuff

well,

Steve

it like,

Ben Tuff

for for

Steve

was

Ben Tuff

me

Steve

there relief or was it something else?

Ben Tuff

not to say I'm a masochist or anything, but I didn't want to have an excuse, right? I didn't want to make an excuse for my past actions just

Steve

Mm

Ben Tuff

because

Steve

hmm.

Ben Tuff

I was bipolar. I didn't want to say because I was having these feelings. okay.

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

It

Steve

Okay.

Ben Tuff

makes it okay what I did it. Maybe it makes it okay that I self-diagnosed myself and then

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

self-medicate myself with alcohol. And so I find that I actually don't. Only recently have I started talking more about my bipolar because there are more people out there that can benefit from it.

Steve

Okay.

Ben Tuff

But at the same time, I

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

also have to own what I went through and in my actions while I went through it. And there's no saying really

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

why I or

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

when I made certain choices, whether it was because of my mental state or was it the alcoholic state

Matt

And

Ben Tuff

in it doesn't really matter in the end, I guess. But for me,

Steve

No,

Ben Tuff

I

Steve

I

Ben Tuff

found

Steve

agree.

Ben Tuff

tremendous relief to know that when I am when I was swinging up and down over these, I was like a two or three week cycle that it was wasn't just me. It was it was something that was going on within me medically that was

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

producing it.

Steve

Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of

put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

Ben Tuff

Yeah.

Steve

get

Ben Tuff

And

Steve

things

Ben Tuff

the

Steve

going.

Ben Tuff

more

Steve

And

Ben Tuff

I

Steve

that's why I've asked

Ben Tuff

delve

Steve

and I really

Ben Tuff

into

Steve

appreciate

Ben Tuff

it,

Steve

you sort of expanding

Ben Tuff

especially with

Steve

on that

Ben Tuff

my

Steve

a little bit

Ben Tuff

my doctor,

Steve

for those who might

Ben Tuff

my

Steve

listen

Ben Tuff

psych psychology just is still my psychologist now that I had 11 years ago, the one who diagnosed me. And I've learned that the dysregulation in it is is relative

Steve

and.

Ben Tuff

to each person. So in other words, bipolar isn't like a bull. It can't be a blanket statement like some people can just dysregulated just a little bit in the middle and yet not quite be bipolar. It's a spectrum. Exactly. And I think you can see this with with Asperger's or what any other kind of doctor all blanket

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

statement and

Steve

So

Ben Tuff

I just like to be careful with it because I don't like I don't like making excuses because if I made excuses, then that's

Matt

it's

Ben Tuff

not

Matt

a spectrum.

Ben Tuff

going to allow me to

Steve

yeah, Yeah.

Ben Tuff

progress forward.

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

Oh,

Steve

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

so he was

Steve

I agree.

Ben Tuff

five years behind me in going to Silver Hill, and he's he's sober as me and just not nearly as outspoken as I am and that I think, has something to do with this, who he kind of hangs out with

Matt

How about your

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

brother?

Ben Tuff

he

Matt

You

Ben Tuff

kind

Matt

got

Ben Tuff

of

Matt

a twin

Ben Tuff

he likes

Matt

brother.

Ben Tuff

to roll with like well known people and and and you know, get across

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

the world and private jets and all that. And so he's not

Steve

Well.

Ben Tuff

a he never drinks but he doesn't ever talk. He doesn't talk that openly about his sobriety. The first time he actually did was at the in the movie

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

when he talks about when I picked him up and in on his way back from the Turks and Caicos and and got him into rehab and and kind of got him sorted out and I think is

Steve

Okay.

Ben Tuff

his his quote was,

Steve

Good for him.

Ben Tuff

you know, the best

Steve

Well.

Ben Tuff

thing about sobriety is you learn how to live, but it's just really hard to get. And I think that that's

Steve

Well.

Ben Tuff

a very true statement for for some of us, you know, it is hard to get and

Steve

Oh,

Ben Tuff

it's taken a lot for us to get to where we are. But

Steve

yeah.

Ben Tuff

in the end,

Steve

Um.

Ben Tuff

what we

Steve

Well,

Ben Tuff

or who we are as human beings is one, at least for me, 100

Steve

well.

Ben Tuff

times better than the one I was. I was I was a frail mess, curled up on the couch

Steve

Oh,

Ben Tuff

like drooling on

Steve

yeah.

Ben Tuff

myself. It was just so

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

sad.

Steve

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the

past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my

life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it.

Ben Tuff

Yeah. So my first sponsor, I was told the fourth or fifth day at Silver Hill, we went to an open meeting in town at the church at 730 in the morning and I was told that I had

Matt

So

Ben Tuff

to come

Matt

where

Ben Tuff

home

Matt

do we

Ben Tuff

with

Matt

get

Ben Tuff

a sponsor,

Matt

to the point where

Ben Tuff

a temporary

Matt

you get sober?

Ben Tuff

sponsor, and

Matt

You are a rudimentary

Ben Tuff

that was like

Matt

swimmer

Ben Tuff

my homework

Matt

at

Ben Tuff

assignment

Matt

best,

Ben Tuff

if I wanted to see my family

Matt

and

Ben Tuff

that

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

weekend.

Matt

get to the point

Ben Tuff

You know,

Matt

where

Ben Tuff

you

Matt

you

Ben Tuff

had

Matt

doing

Ben Tuff

like, your

Matt

marathon

Ben Tuff

checklist

Matt

swimming and triathlons?

Ben Tuff

and I was like,

Matt

How

Ben Tuff

boom, I'll

Matt

does that

Ben Tuff

get

Matt

happen?

Ben Tuff

it done. And

Steve

Mm.

Ben Tuff

I felt like I was getting ready for like a dating show or something. It was like, Oh my God, who am I going to pick? Who am I going to pick? There's like 100 people in this room.

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

And I heard this guy with an Irish

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

accent. His name is Ken, and he start talking about his triathlon experience and he just was smart and he was like, no B.S.. Like, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, This is the kind of guy that I need. I want someone who's going to run me through the steps and I want someone who I can relate to and who

Matt

Oh,

Ben Tuff

I can

Matt

yeah.

Steve

Well

Ben Tuff

look up to as well. And so I went up to him afterwards and I said, Will you be my temporary sponsor? And he was like, Absolutely, totally. And I said, Do you think I can learn how to swim? Because I want to be a triathlete and I know how to bike and I know how to run, but I can't swim. It was like I didn't know how to swim either. Guaranteed you can figure it out in two or three months. So right after I got out of rehab, I went to the pool every day and taught myself to

swim. And maybe it's because I'm too stubborn, but I would not take a lesson and I wanted to figure it all out on myself. And and, you know, maybe that's the alcoholic piece of my brain that just said, Yeah, I just wanted to do it for myself and

Steve

yeah,

Ben Tuff

figure

Steve

I agree.

Ben Tuff

it out. And

Steve

I

Ben Tuff

I

Steve

agree.

Ben Tuff

didn't want anyone else get in my way. I wanted it to be my journey. That's it. And I figured it out pretty quickly and I went from half a length in the pool to going about a half mile in about two and a half months. And that's when my ventures in triathlon

Matt

That is definitely

Ben Tuff

started for

Matt

alcohol.

Ben Tuff

about

Matt

A piece

Ben Tuff

seven

Matt

of your brain.

Ben Tuff

years,

Matt

That's stubbornness.

Ben Tuff

all the way, you know, to the national championship. I was, you know, top 10% of the country. But the truth is, my wife decided to start to do triathlons as well. And she started to do half diamonds and Ironman. And we did a half Ironman in Maine. And she beat me by like 13 minutes. Okay. Like it wasn't even close. And I was like, I'm done. I'm done

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

with triathlons, like, and I was getting really competitive anyway. I was like, trying to beat everyone

Steve

Right,

Ben Tuff

there. It was just getting

Steve

Right,

Ben Tuff

it was getting silly. And it's like, I kind of just like to swim. Like, I'm just going to swim from now on. And so I did a two mile swim. And in Rhode Island, the Save the Bay swim from Newport to Jamestown. Yeah, Yeah. yeah,

Matt

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

yeah. And it's it's tons of fun. And then I was like, That's easy. I'll do the swim around Key West, which was 12 and a half miles. And my, my daughter came down and we kind of had a fun vacation and did it around it. And that's when the kind of big swim started

Matt

yeah.

Ben Tuff

like

Matt

That's

Ben Tuff

swimming

Matt

the one.

Ben Tuff

around

Matt

That's the

Ben Tuff

Jamestown,

Matt

one. I've seen

Ben Tuff

which

Matt

the

Ben Tuff

is

Matt

Save

Ben Tuff

21

Matt

the Bay

Ben Tuff

miles

Matt

one. I

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

looked

Ben Tuff

then

Matt

at

Ben Tuff

swim

Matt

that going

Ben Tuff

from BLOCK

Matt

over the bridge.

Ben Tuff

Island

Matt

I'm like,

Ben Tuff

to

Matt

I

Ben Tuff

Jamestown,

Matt

want to do that.

Ben Tuff

which was 19 miles. And then being the first person to ever swim, all of Narragansett Bay, which was just over 23 miles. And I'm still not a great swimmer. If, like every time I watch my movie, I can't even watch the swimming parts, like the underwater parts because it's just like kills me because I'm like, oh, my gosh, my catch is wrong. Like, my pull is wrong, my kick is awful. I need to rotate more.

Steve

right,

Ben Tuff

Like, that's all

Steve

right,

Ben Tuff

I do with my head

Steve

right,

Ben Tuff

is, is that like, perfectionist? Yeah. So that's

Steve

right,

Ben Tuff

what

Steve

right,

Ben Tuff

what I found for me is swimming is a place that I can disappear. I was not. I failed. The yoga and mindfulness pieces in in rehab, like they said, okay, Sunday

Matt

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

afternoon

Matt

I think Michael

Ben Tuff

we're

Matt

Phelps

Ben Tuff

going to have

Matt

would

Ben Tuff

mindfulness

Matt

probably pick up

Ben Tuff

where

Matt

on

Ben Tuff

we

Matt

that.

Ben Tuff

all

Matt

I

Ben Tuff

just

Matt

think

Ben Tuff

sit still

Matt

normal people

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

wouldn't.

Ben Tuff

and, and just kind of zone out and do our thing and I couldn't do it. But in the water I can do it for hours and hours and hours.

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

And at the same time, I love my doing these swims because

Matt

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

it reminds me of the pain that I went through with alcoholism when I hit that wall, You know, coming back from doing the last swim, it was probably 13 miles into the swim. And my shoulder was like killing me. And I wasn't moving. I was stuck against the current, you know, I was like, this is the worst thing in the whole world, but it's also the best. And even looking back at it, I was like, because life is about hurting as well as enjoying it. Because if you don't have that hurt, you

can't feel that joy. And and and for me, I spent so much time and effort trying to dull that hurt. I couldn't ever feel the really good things either. You know, it just didn't just backfired but but right numb to all of it and and and now I've taught myself to go to a place that is almost sacred to me. And I pray on my swims, you know, I get off kilter if I ever go more than two days without swimming, like there is something wrong with me. And

Matt

you're numb.

Ben Tuff

my wife will even say, Ben, go for a swim, get out of here Mm and hmm. go for a swim so I can get out of my head. And you know, with the stress

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

of I quit my job after 21 years. I quit my job mid-year

Steve

Yeah.

Ben Tuff

to make a movie and to go out and and make try and make a living off of speaking about it and showing it to people and change lives. And it's very stressful to start something anew. But at the same time, that's what life is

Steve

Mm

Ben Tuff

all

Steve

hmm.

Ben Tuff

about. And, and, and that's what sobriety has taught me.

Steve

Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there. I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he

says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to

have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I

get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say,

Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is. And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a

challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is

hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those things. And some of those things you accomplished are just

they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff.

Matt

Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

Ben Tuff

You

Matt

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the

Ben Tuff

right?

Matt

Bay would freak me

Ben Tuff

And

Matt

out once

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

I get

Ben Tuff

me,

Matt

north

Ben Tuff

it's

Matt

of Jamestown

Ben Tuff

all about

Matt

and see some

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

of those

Ben Tuff

just want people to find

Matt

some of those

Ben Tuff

their

Matt

factories

Ben Tuff

thing.

Matt

and stuff and like,

Ben Tuff

I

Matt

what's

Ben Tuff

just

Matt

in

Ben Tuff

want

Matt

that

Ben Tuff

them

Matt

water?

Ben Tuff

to find their adventure.

Matt

But to know

Ben Tuff

And

Matt

and

Ben Tuff

it's

Matt

I see

Ben Tuff

not

Matt

BLOCK

Ben Tuff

it's

Matt

Island

Ben Tuff

not always

Matt

from the

Ben Tuff

going

Matt

beach

Ben Tuff

to be

Matt

and you have

Ben Tuff

swimming

Steve

Yeah.

Matt

to squint your

Ben Tuff

23,

Matt

eyes. I'm like, you're

Ben Tuff

24

Matt

going to swim

Ben Tuff

miles.

Matt

all the way

Steve

Yeah,

Matt

there to

Ben Tuff

You

Steve

me

Ben Tuff

know,

Matt

be

Steve

too.

Matt

able to accomplish

Ben Tuff

it can be going

Matt

something

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

like

Ben Tuff

a walk.

Matt

this

Ben Tuff

It can be just like

Matt

after getting sober

Ben Tuff

doing

Matt

of

Ben Tuff

your

Steve

Absolutely

Ben Tuff

first jog

Matt

that tells me I

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

don't have to swim

Ben Tuff

for

Matt

to BLOCK

Ben Tuff

a

Matt

Island.

Ben Tuff

quarter

Matt

I

Ben Tuff

of a

Matt

can

Ben Tuff

mile.

Matt

live a good life

Ben Tuff

Who

Matt

not

Ben Tuff

cares?

Matt

drinking.

Ben Tuff

Whatever it is,

Matt

I can bring

Ben Tuff

just

Matt

the bar

Ben Tuff

find

Matt

down.

Ben Tuff

it. Because

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

once again, that's what makes us human. And we have to cling on to these Yeah. this idea of being human because we as drinkers have spent so much time dulling the understanding and the comprehension of what being human is all about. So let's learn it all over again. And I had a great chat with with someone,

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

you know, I'm a huge prescriber to smart meaning smart recovery to AA. I just happened to get sober with AA and did my 1990, and that's worked really well for me. And it's living in southern

Steve

Yeah,

Ben Tuff

Vermont. It's the most accessible for me to go to meetings.

Matt

All

Ben Tuff

And this gentleman who's 80, 81 years old, came to me after the meeting and he said, Well, you're going against the anonymity piece. And I said, Well, actually, I'm not. If Bill Wilson, he actually went out of his way to not be anonymous anymore, and I'm not breaking anyone else's anonymity. I'm just breaking my own, because when I got sober, I was around who didn't know what an alcoholic was, and they pictured a bum on the streets. And they need to have every human

Steve

right.

Ben Tuff

being needs to have someone to look up to in whatever role they are, you know, an alcoholic or or whatever label you want to put on a human. And if I can let them know that, hey, if there's ever trouble down the road and you have a problem or your friend has a problem or a family member has a problem, you can call me and you can you can come to me in this in the last three months, I've taken four kids to rehab all of my former students, because either their parents or they themselves

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

reached out to me and said, We need help. And and and so I'm starting to see finally see some traction. And that, to me, is the most rewarding piece in the

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

and the kind of driving piece for me to get up in front of these kids because I just want to be like, Dude, that guy is awesome and he's an alcoholic. And and in the movie, one of my favorite lines that I say is that like, I'm the proudest alcoholic in this planet and I'm so happy to be that person. And if there's anyone else who can compete with me

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

for that title, then come along for the ride because we need you as well.

Steve

Well,

Matt

I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available?

Steve

yeah. Listen, I.

Matt

It could

Steve

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Matt

be life

Steve

did

Matt

changing

Steve

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Matt

to so

Steve

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Matt

many

Steve

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Matt

people.

Steve

like your brother for a while

Matt

And

Steve

because

Matt

this is the AA. I'm

Steve

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Matt

an

Steve

had.

Matt

AA person,

Steve

I was afraid

Matt

but this is the thing

Steve

of letting

Matt

with AA

Steve

certain people

Matt

that drives

Steve

know,

Matt

me

Steve

you

Matt

insane

Steve

know, I had a decent job.

Matt

is the

Steve

I made

Matt

the black

Steve

good

Matt

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Steve

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Matt

think, well, I have

Steve

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Matt

to

Steve

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Matt

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Steve

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Matt

this.

Steve

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Matt

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Steve

the boat.

Matt

break this anonymity

Steve

Right. Especially

Matt

of like,

Steve

after years of

Matt

let's

Steve

not making

Matt

be flexible

Steve

good money,

Matt

here

Steve

being a

Matt

in

Steve

good

Matt

terms

Steve

old

Matt

of

Steve

alcoholic.

Matt

where it makes sense.

Steve

And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and

Ben Tuff

Hmm?

Steve

tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink

with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that.

Ben Tuff

Mm hmm.

Steve

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,

Matt

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man.

Ben Tuff

Well,

Matt

I would

Ben Tuff

thank

Matt

like to take

Ben Tuff

you

Matt

lessons.

Ben Tuff

notes. It's

Matt

This is

Ben Tuff

awesome.

Matt

a fantastic

Ben Tuff

And

Matt

website. It's a fantastic story.

Ben Tuff

it

Matt

I cannot

Ben Tuff

it is always.

Matt

wait to watch this.

Ben Tuff

There are many

Matt

And just as

Ben Tuff

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Matt

somebody who

Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Matt

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Matt

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Matt

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Matt

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Matt

of people

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Matt

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Matt

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

And

Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Steve

right.

Matt

work, then?

Ben Tuff

once I get that, like, I just want to talk. I just want to like my favorite part, believe it or not, is yeah, I love to see the reactions when when the crowd watches the movie and they they kind of clap and do their thing. But my favorite part is answering their questions because it's the one time that we can just be totally honest with one another and that I can address individual concerns. And I went and talked to a

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

fraternity down at University of Georgia and everyone thought I was crazy. Like, you're going into like the K house, like a nutso place. And I had 120 kids show up. And I, I didn't even I just spoke to them and told them about my journey. And after words, I had probably 35 emails from those guys saying, thank you, what a difference it made. Like finally, it wasn't someone preaching

Steve

Mm hmm.

Ben Tuff

to me. And then a lot of the guys just asking questions. Well, so-and-so's like really into this. And like it's I think it's becoming a problem. How do I know if it's a problem? And some like difficult questions. And I was like, wow, if we can have that hour and a half together

Steve

Right.

Ben Tuff

and they have that with me already, like boom, let's do it.

Steve

Yeah. So. Yeah,

Ben Tuff

So my Instagram, I have I have fun with that because my twin brother, he was in social media and he's like, You have to do something with your Yeah. Instagram because you have three posts. So now I have so much fun posting my kind of daily journey on

Matt

Absolutely.

Ben Tuff

Instagram

Matt

Yeah. My head

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

spinning

Ben Tuff

it's

Matt

on what we

Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Matt

with this.

Ben Tuff

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Matt

Where

Ben Tuff

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Matt

else can we contact you? What

Ben Tuff

And then

Matt

are really

Ben Tuff

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Matt

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Ben Tuff

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Matt

to hook

Ben Tuff

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Matt

up

Ben Tuff

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Matt

with

Ben Tuff

book

Matt

your

Ben Tuff

and

Matt

story?

Ben Tuff

I want people to to reach out to me. And you can reach out to me at Ben Tuff at Swim tough com and I'll get right back to you and and maybe it's just a question about a loved one question about yourself or maybe you just want to learn how to swim. It doesn't matter. I'm an open book.

Steve

yeah. Yeah,

Ben Tuff

Absolutely.

Matt

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when

Ben Tuff

No,

Matt

I reached

Ben Tuff

thank

Matt

out.

Ben Tuff

you. Yeah. And, you know, for me, as an alcoholic, I relied on dishonesty and. And the lack of trust in everything that I did and my whole life, because it was a secret not only to those around me, but also to myself. You. I would go to the liquor store. I would buy two vitamin waters. I'd sit them down the the label. I'd buy a pint of vodka. I would fill it up. I'd throw the ball away, I'd seal up the vitamin waters. I put them in my backpack on each side of my Patagonia backpack,

and I throw it on my back. And I convinced myself I was just going to be drinking a bottle of vitamin water When I got home and I come in, I pull into the driveway, I chug that whole vitamin water, which was eight or nine ounces of vodka straight up, didn't even think about it. And to me it was like, Oh, that was just one drink. You know, we are just we are so good or I am so good at lying to myself about what I was doing and rationalizing it. Oh, no, I

needed that. It's been such a stressful day or I can't sleep without it or whatever the excuse might be. Know, and for me, the what I did to try to cling on to that right to drink in the future, even at that last minute when the whole gig was up, I remember the doctor left. I had said I would go, I'd go get help. And and I said to my wife, well, I could I could I can still have like a beer now and then or a couple of beers. Right. Like I can still do. And she was like,

ready to file for divorce. So get out of here. And that's when she looked at me straight and she said, It's either you get help and you never drink again and you will have us in your life or say goodbye to your kids and say goodbye to me, because that's that's where we're at right now. Yeah. And I went home after that visit and I was like, okay, let's set up the rehab. Let's do

this. And I got so deathly ill from detoxing that my wife took me back to the same hospital and they admitted me into the psych ward for seven days of detox, and I had no intention of going back there. But if, like I literally was going through the D ts, I was shaking, I was seeing things, I was it was just an absolutely miserable

experience. And the only way that I would have gotten through that is through medical help, because otherwise people don't understand that you will die or can very easily die when you're detoxing that hard. Yeah, and I am not in nature versus nurture kind of guy. Like as I know under I do understand with some people that that's a piece of it and I got brought up in an affluent family. You know, my dad was a turnaround CEO and we

went on great vacations. But I also got brought up in a British household and my dad's British. My mom is Canadian slash British. And you know, from day one, you know, I first had wine when I was probably eight years old or nine years old, just a little thimble of it with with Christmas dinner or what have you. And it was kind of like I was the youngest of six kids. I have an identical twin brother

and all my older siblings. I can't other than now in the last like ten years of my sobriety, I can't remember a time growing up when they weren't drinking around me and drinking heavily around me. That was just a part of our life and a part of our lifestyle. It was like party hard. That's what we do as a family. That's kind of like the conduit that brings us all together, lets us all hang out.

So when I was 16, it was it was on and both my my twin brother and I would take part in that family kind of gathering and especially the summers in Jamestown, because then with all my summer friends and and that created a kind of drinking scene as well. So the parents would all get together for their cocktail parties and the kids would go down to the fire and have their little cocktail parties. And it was all well and

good. And I wouldn't say, you know, I partied hard, but I was like a beer drinker and never really drank hard alcohol. Like even in college, I would find a way to rationalize going out and college. Like every single night I get home and I would finish all my homework and, you know, all my papers were done by four or five. And then I'd go to the pub or I'd go hang out with anybody who I could hang out

with that were drinking. And it was great for me because I got to know so many different groups of people because on Monday night it was with the baseball players. On Tuesday night it was with the hippies. On Wednesday night it was with so-and-so. And you know, up to that point that I had a lot of anxiety growing up to a lot of anxiety. And and it all manifested in hypochondria. And I was constantly worried that I

was dying of some disease. And I remember I had a worry and a worry sheet because my mom was like, just make a worry sheet and that'll help. And I constantly had a worry sheet of all my ailments and when I was going to die from them, right, I was convinced I had a brain tumor or kidney cancer or who knows what. So that started at 12 probably. And I would have panic attacks. I probably had 20 to 30 visits to the E.R. between the age of 12 and 18 in Atlanta. And it was just constantly things just

anxiety, anxiety, anxiety. And, you know, my parents did throw out the threat of, oh, okay. Then we're going to take you to a psychiatrist if this happens again. And of course, that happens again. And that was a huge it backfired big time because I went to like the scariest psychiatrist ever who was like 75 years old, had like a Swedish accent and like, big thick glasses. And his name was like, Yeah, I think his name was Sven, Dr. Sven or something. And he like, gave me the knife

degree all over. And when I left that office, I said, I'm never going to say a thing ever again to my parents about being anxious or having these feelings. And so I just kept it in a little bit further and and it wasn't until I really like 14 years ago, I started drinking alcohol, likely like hardcore, going through patterns of like one month on really drinking hard and in a couple of weeks off and then one month on. And it was just kind of like this up and down, depending on how I was

feeling emotionally. And it was my third day at rehab in Connecticut at Silver Hill Hospital. And my doctor was like, You're bipolar. Like you're textbook bipolar, and you have been since you were 13. Like most I guess most men usually get diagnosed with bipolar in their twenties. And I had it actually a lot earlier on, and it just went undiagnosed. And I self-medicated with with alcohol and I kind of had a double edged sword because I was self-medicating with alcohol.

But alcohol was also the one lubricant, the social lubricant that would keep me engaged in the social scene and relaxed and and, you know, the fun, easygoing guy that that I am. And now I'm finally able to do all of that even better without alcohol, which is something that is just baffling to me like that. I just never knew anything about it. And so I am in a family of of alcoholics and, you know, some of us have gotten sober and I've helped. I was the first one

to get sober in my family. And some have followed afterwards and has been very rewarding to help them get to where they need to go. But I didn't want to in no way have I put it upon them all. I just they came to me and said, I need help. And and it was at that point that I gave

them the help they needed. So it's kind of a different dynamic in the family and even the even the guy who comes to pick up the recycling at the end of the driveway in Jamestown, he said to me this summer, he was like, Wow, you guys have made some drastic changes because it's all polar, it's all polar seltzer cans. Instead of instead of the Budweiser's. well, for for me not to say I'm a masochist or anything, but I didn't want to

have an excuse, right? I didn't want to make an excuse for my past actions just because I was bipolar. I didn't want to say because I was having these feelings. It makes it okay what I did it. Maybe it makes it okay that I self-diagnosed myself and then self-medicate myself with alcohol. And so I find that I actually don't. Only recently have I started talking more about my bipolar because there are more people out there that can benefit from it.

But at the same time, I also have to own what I went through and in my actions while I went through it. And there's no saying really why I or when I made certain choices, whether it was because of my mental state or was it the alcoholic state in it doesn't really matter in the end, I guess. But for me, I found tremendous relief to know that when I am when I was swinging up and down over these, I was like a two or three week cycle that it was wasn't just me.

It was it was something that was going on within me medically that was producing it. Yeah. And the more I delve into it, especially with my my doctor, my psych psychology just is still my psychologist now that I had 11 years ago, the one who diagnosed me. And I've learned that the dysregulation in it is is relative to each person. So in other words, bipolar isn't

like a bull. It can't be a blanket statement like some people can just dysregulated just a little bit in the middle and yet not quite be bipolar. It's a spectrum. Exactly. And I think you can see this with with Asperger's or what any other kind of doctor all blanket statement and I just like to be careful with it because I don't like I don't like making excuses because if I made excuses, then that's not going to allow me to progress forward.

Oh, so he was five years behind me in going to Silver Hill, and he's he's sober as me and just not nearly as outspoken as I am and that I think, has something to do with this, who he kind of hangs out with and he kind of he likes to roll with like well known people and and and you know, get across the world and private jets and all that. And so he's not a he never drinks but he doesn't ever talk. He doesn't talk that openly about

his sobriety. The first time he actually did was at the in the movie when he talks about when I picked him up and in on his way back from the Turks and Caicos and and got him into rehab and and kind of got him sorted out and I think is his his quote was, you know, the best thing about sobriety is you learn how to live, but it's just really hard to get. And I think that that's a very true statement for for some of us, you know, it is hard to get and it's taken a lot for

us to get to where we are. But in the end, what we or who we are as human beings is one, at least for me, 100 times better than the one I was. I was I was a frail mess, curled up on the couch like drooling on myself. It was just so sad.

Yeah. So my first sponsor, I was told the fourth or fifth day at Silver Hill, we went to an open meeting in town at the church at 730 in the morning and I was told that I had to come home with a sponsor, a temporary sponsor, and that was like my homework assignment if I wanted to see my family that weekend. You know, you had like, your checklist and I was like, boom, I'll get it done. And I felt like I was getting ready for like a dating show or something. It was like, Oh my God, who am I

going to pick? Who am I going to pick? There's like 100 people in this room. And I heard this guy with an Irish accent. His name is Ken, and he start talking about his triathlon experience and he just was smart and he was like, no B.S.. Like, boom, boom, boom. And I was like, This is the kind of guy that I need. I want someone who's going to run me through the steps and I want someone who I can relate to and who I can look up to as well. And so I went up to him afterwards and I said, Will you

be my temporary sponsor? And he was like, Absolutely, totally. And I said, Do you think I can learn how to swim? Because I want to be a triathlete and I know how to bike and I know how to run, but I can't swim. It was like I didn't know how to swim either. Guaranteed you can figure it out in two or three months. So right after I got out of rehab, I went to the pool every day and taught myself to swim. And maybe it's because I'm too stubborn, but I would not take a lesson and I wanted to

figure it all out on myself. And and, you know, maybe that's the alcoholic piece of my brain that just said, Yeah, I just wanted to do it for myself and figure it out. And I didn't want anyone else get in my way. I wanted it to be my journey. That's it. And I figured it out pretty quickly and I went from half a length in the pool to going about a half mile in about two and a half

months. And that's when my ventures in triathlon started for about seven years, all the way, you know, to the national championship. I was, you know, top 10% of the country. But the truth is, my wife decided to start to do triathlons as well. And she started to do half diamonds and Ironman. And we did a half Ironman in Maine. And she beat me by like 13 minutes. Okay. Like it wasn't even close. And I was like, I'm done. I'm done with triathlons, like, and I was getting really competitive

anyway. I was like, trying to beat everyone there. It was just getting it was getting silly. And it's like, I kind of just like to swim. Like, I'm just going to swim from now on. And so I did a two mile swim. And in Rhode Island, the Save the Bay swim from Newport to Jamestown. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's tons of fun. And then I was like, That's easy. I'll do the swim around Key West, which was 12 and a half miles. And my, my daughter came down and we kind of had a fun vacation and

did it around it. And that's when the kind of big swim started like swimming around Jamestown, which is 21 miles and then swim from BLOCK Island to Jamestown, which was 19 miles. And then being the first person to ever swim, all of Narragansett Bay, which was just over 23 miles. And I'm still not a great swimmer. If, like every time I watch my movie, I can't even watch the swimming parts, like the underwater parts because it's just like kills me because I'm like, oh, my gosh,

my catch is wrong. Like, my pull is wrong, my kick is awful. I need to rotate more. Like, that's all I do with my head is, is that like, perfectionist? Yeah. So that's what what I found for me is swimming is a place that I can disappear. I was not. I failed. The yoga and mindfulness pieces in in rehab, like they said, okay, Sunday afternoon we're going to have mindfulness where we all just sit still and and, and just kind of zone out and do our thing and I couldn't

do it. But in the water I can do it for hours and hours and hours. And at the same time, I love my doing these swims because it reminds me of the pain that I went through with alcoholism when I hit that wall, You know, coming back from doing the last swim, it was probably 13 miles into the swim. And my shoulder was like killing me. And I wasn't moving. I was stuck against the current, you know, I was like, this is the worst thing in the whole world, but

it's also the best. And even looking back at it, I was like, because life is about hurting as well as enjoying it. Because if you don't have that hurt, you can't feel that joy. And and and for me, I spent so much time and effort trying to dull that hurt. I couldn't ever feel the really good things either. You know, it just didn't just backfired but but right numb to all of it and and and now I've taught myself to go to a place that is almost

sacred to me. And I pray on my swims, you know, I get off kilter if I ever go more than two days without swimming, like there is something wrong with me. And my wife will even say, Ben, go for a swim, get out of here and go for a swim so I can get out of my head. And you know, with the stress of I quit my job after 21 years. I quit my job mid-year to make a movie and to go out and and make try and make a living off of speaking about it and showing it to people and

change lives. And it's very stressful to start something anew. But at the same time, that's what life is all about. And, and, and that's what sobriety has taught me. right? And for me, it's all about I just want people to find their thing. I just want them to find their adventure. And it's not it's not always going to be swimming 23, 24 miles. You know, it can be going for a walk. It can be just like doing your first jog for for a quarter of a mile. Who cares? Whatever it is,

just find it. Because once again, that's what makes us human. And we have to cling on to these this idea of being human because we as drinkers have spent so much time dulling the understanding and the comprehension of what being human is all about. So let's learn it all over again. And I had a great chat with with someone, you know, I'm a huge prescriber to smart meaning smart recovery to AA. I just happened to get sober with AA and did my 1990, and that's

worked really well for me. And it's living in southern Vermont. It's the most accessible for me to go to meetings. And this gentleman who's 80, 81 years old, came to me after the meeting and he said, Well, you're going against the anonymity piece. And I said, Well, actually, I'm not. If Bill Wilson, he actually went out of his way to not be anonymous anymore, and I'm not breaking anyone else's anonymity.

I'm just breaking my own, because when I got sober, I was around who didn't know what an alcoholic was, and they pictured a bum on the streets. And they need to have every human being needs to have someone to look up to in whatever role they are, you know, an alcoholic or or whatever label you want to put

on a human. And if I can let them know that, hey, if there's ever trouble down the road and you have a problem or your friend has a problem or a family member has a problem, you can call me and you can you can come to me in this in the last three months, I've taken four kids to rehab all of my former students, because either their parents or they themselves reached out to me and said, We need help. And and and so I'm starting to see

finally see some traction. And that, to me, is the most rewarding piece in the and the kind of driving piece for me to get up in front of these kids because I just want to be like, Dude, that guy is awesome and he's an alcoholic. And and in the movie, one of my favorite lines that I say is that like, I'm the proudest alcoholic in this planet and I'm so happy to

be that person. And if there's anyone else who can compete with me for that title, then come along for the ride because we need you as well. Mm hmm. Well, thank you notes. It's awesome. And it it is always. There are many I called it kind of like my Trojan horse. You know, this is like the the vehicle that is getting me hopefully into these schools and into these businesses and into these rehabs. And then once I get that, like,

I just want to talk. I just want to like my favorite part, believe it or not, is yeah, I love to see the reactions when when the crowd watches the movie and they they kind of clap and do their thing. But my favorite part is answering their questions because it's the one time that we can just be totally honest with one another and that I can address individual concerns. And I went and talked to a fraternity down at University of Georgia and everyone thought

I was crazy. Like, you're going into like the K house, like a nutso place. And I had 120 kids show up. And I, I didn't even I just spoke to them and told them about my journey. And after words, I had probably 35 emails from those guys saying, thank you, what a difference it made. Like finally, it wasn't someone preaching to me. And then a lot of the guys just asking questions. Well, so-and-so's like really into this. And like it's I think it's becoming a problem. How do I know if it's a

problem? And some like difficult questions. And I was like, wow, if we can have that hour and a half together and they have that with me already, like boom, let's do it. So my Instagram, I have I have fun with that because my twin brother, he was in social media and he's like, You have to do something with your Instagram because you have three posts. So now I have so much fun posting my kind of daily journey on Instagram and it's at Ben Dot

tough. And then again, I'm an open book and I want people to to reach out to me. And you can reach out to me at Ben Tuff at Swim tough com and I'll get right back to you and and maybe it's just a question about a loved one question about yourself or maybe you just want to learn how to swim. It doesn't matter. I'm an open book. Absolutely. No, thank you.

Matt

So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey,

Steve

yeah.

Matt

Ben seems

Steve

Thanks,

Matt

like

Steve

man. Yeah. Well. Well, well. One of the things that happens to in that time is right there. Alcohol blurs. What we think is important in our lives, right? I mean, we really can't see through that haze of alcohol to figure out what we're really interested in at all. And and I to you know, Ben, as I say to myself today, my biggest purpose in life is to be useful to other people. Right. That's what I want to be. I want to be useful

right. And for those of us who follow the program of recovery that's in our that's in our literature is to be useful to our you know, to our fellows. And and that's why I try to get up every day and like, try to be useful to other people without any, you know, any anything that looking for any reciprocation or anything like that, just to be useful and helpful to other people. So. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with your life to. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gig's up. Yeah. Yeah, I. I heard you tell that. That's an amazing story. I heard you tell that, you know, one of your other podcasts that you were on, and it's such a it's such a really it's just that everybody can relate to that, right? Like, you know, sit there and go, Oh, shit, You know, I was drinking the night before and you could say, Hey, I wasn't drinking. But to be told that in front of your wife, who had no clue, I too was a closet drinker.

My wife didn't know half the time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up there. No gigs up. Hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was,

like, on the bus. You did a lot of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing.

Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did

something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she

had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for

12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know, still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she

could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Well, well. One of the things that happens to in that time is right there. Alcohol blurs. What we think is important in our lives, right? I mean, we really can't see through that haze of alcohol to figure out what we're really

interested in at all. And and I to you know, Ben, as I say to myself today, my biggest purpose in life is to be useful to other people. Right. That's what I want to be. I want to be useful right. And for those of us who follow the program of recovery that's in our that's in our literature is to be useful to our you know, to our fellows.

And and that's why I try to get up every day and like, try to be useful to other people without any, you know, any anything that looking for any reciprocation or anything like that, just to be useful and helpful to other people. So. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do with your life to. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Gig's up. Yeah. Yeah, I. I heard you tell that.

That's an amazing story. I heard you tell that, you know, one of your other podcasts that you were on, and it's such a it's such a really it's just that everybody can relate to that, right? Like, you know, sit there and go, Oh, shit, You know, I was drinking the night before and you could say, Hey, I wasn't drinking. But to be told that in front of your wife, who had no clue, I too was a closet drinker. My wife didn't know half the time that I was drinking. She she had no clue. I never got to

that point. But that could've easily have happened, right as I showed up one day. And no, we can't do that. So it's just such an amazing eye opening thing that you just go gigs up there. No gigs up. Hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was, like, on the bus. You did a lot

of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing.

Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did

something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she

had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for

12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know, still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she

could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Wow. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No. Reminds me. I told the story here before. I'll tell it really quickly is that I was big in church for a long time. I was, like, on the bus. You did a lot of stuff at church, and. And I was really deep into my alcoholism, too, at the same time. And I used to run different organ, different

committees at church. And at the end of it, just, just before I came in the first time, I would I would be coming home. I would take a McDonald's cup and I would fill it up with wine and I would sit there with a bunch of old ladies convinced that they had no clue what I was doing. Like like that. They couldn't smell the wine that was in this coming out of the scalp like. And I would just slip it through a stall like I was sipping a Diet Coke, you know, and convinced everybody that that's

all I was doing. It was it's such a crazy thought pattern that we all get into. And that's why I mean, it's not everybody. But for those of us who identify as real alcoholics, you know, everybody could be sitting there shaking their head today because they're like, Oh, yeah, I did something similar to that. It's just crazy, crazy stuff. MM Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a that's a good, strong woman. I mean that's a, you know, something I really

mean. That's a, that's a woman who, who knew what you want. Listen, I, you know, I went through a similar story. People listen, this podcast, my wife came home where I'm still married to gratefully and said, Hey, I went to see a divorce attorney today. Right. That's how it got to me, too, right? Like, she was like she had had enough. And she didn't know I was drinking. She just do I mean, my behavior was not good enough that she didn't want to live with me anymore, you know? And

that's what we do, right? I mean, that's the kind of stuff we do. It's just it's just an amazing you know, what else just jumped up, jumped out at me. Is that you? You tested double the the legal limit of alcohol after not drinking for 12 hours. Right. And so so you think about how many times those of us who drank that way woke up still drunk, got in a car, went to work, did all those things thinking, oh, man, I feel like crap, you know, you know, and I feel, you know,

still drunk, you know? I mean, it's just amazing. And that's like another thing that pops out of your story is like, now this is like 12 hours after I stopped drinking, and I'm still double the limit. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a

normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Oh, yeah. You can't. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a

normal drinker. She's a wine drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Mm hmm. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen and. Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, yeah. Um. Well, well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah, absolutely. Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, no. Long are those bottles they are used to hide. You know, one of the things I used to do, my wife is a why, and she's a normal drinker. She's a wine

drinker. Although towards the end of my heavy drinking, she was drinking a lot because she could barely live with me. But anyway, I used to drink the same wine so that they would look the same in the and the recycling bin. You know, we had the big ones. So. So I would be go hide them in there, you know, And it's funny like that. No more wine bottles. What's going on

here? Okay. One of the things you mentioned there is like a lot of people and I know it was for me, is that when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, when I finally understood that and I finally understood and I did a little work, I finally was to like, although there's a name for it. And like, there was some relief because then I could tackle it. I'm just wondering because, you know, I'm sure there's some people living out there who live with bipolar.

Like, did you have that same feeling that when you were diagnosed with being bipolar, like all there's a name for it and now I could address it like, was there relief or was it something else? Okay. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. No, I agree. Right. And that's why I bring it up, because I think there are a lot of people out there who can benefit from hearing you share about it. And it's, you know, and it's very you know, it's brave of you to put it out there

and all that kind of stuff. And and I'm sure those people who have listened to this, who maybe are going through some of the same things and haven't sort of put two and two together. And the reason why I asked the question was I hopefully that maybe some of you might listen to this and then just look at themselves and go, Hey, maybe there's something else going on. Maybe I need some help, you know, outside of AA to sort of really

get things going. And that's why I've asked and I really appreciate you sort of expanding on that a little bit for those who might listen Right. So yeah, right. Yeah, I agree. Mm hmm. Well. Mm hmm. Okay. Good for him. Well. Well. Oh, Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, everything you said there. First of all, it is hard to get true sobriety where that you feel this freedom and peace that I know. I feel talking to you for a few minutes

and talking to you. I could tell that you feel that I know Matt well enough that he feels that not that we don't have our own struggles, but my life today is like, just like you said, it's like it is. It is so much better than anything I had in, in the past. And and that's because of I'm able to just like I said, be present, have those relationships that I thought I had. Right. I mean, if you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have told you I had those same

relationships, but I didn't. I didn't because I was very still transactional in that part of my life. Um, so it is so it is sobriety is so hard to get, which is why, you know, we can go to meetings at least around where we are here, Matt and I here, and you get 20 people and there should be 200 people, right? I mean, these meetings, you know, we should be doing and convention centers not and and

and they do those. But listen, it's hard, but it's beautiful Once you get it, it's beautiful Once you get it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Right, Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things you mentioned there was, like, when you hit that wall, there's a great clip out there.

I don't know if you've ever seen it or have you seen it, Matt, where somebody was interviewing Stephen Colbert and he talks about I guess he's made a reference to where you have to appreciate the pain in your life. And they asked him, they said, Do you really believe that? And I'm paraphrasing here, but he says, yes. He goes, if you if you if you appreciate being human and being alive, then pain and suffering is part of that. And you have to appreciate that

part of your life, too. And, you know, it just changes the way you look at stuff. Like it's just part of the human experiences that we're going to have pain. One of the things that, you know, I was listening to some of your stuff today before we came on, and since I got sober, one of the things that I've done and I've always wanted to do was I wanted to do a lot more hiking in my life, Right? And I could never do that. Right. And it's funny that we

brought it back. I did it when I was 12, 13, and then started drinking at 15 and really never did it again. Right. And then I get sober. And last year my hiking partner and I, we did all the high peaks in New England. So we did Washington and we did Katahdin up in Maine. We did Mansfield, you know, we did them all. And then and tomorrow. Matter of fact, my wife will be behind me. You can't see it, but I have my backpack. We're going up to Massachusetts. We're going

to hike in the city. These are things that I could never do. And people that my wife will say, Hey, did you have fun? I'm like, I was ready to puke halfway up that mountain. Right. Like, it's not fun when I'm doing it. It's like it's painful. It's it's challenging. But there's so much I just feel so grateful that I could do that stuff. And I'm. And I have the ability to go out there. And tomorrow we'll go out. Then we'll hike for about 12 miles and who knows what it is.

And we haven't done a lot of hiking. Tomorrow won't be fun, even though it's not a challenging hike. We just haven't hiked a lot this year. So tomorrow this 12 miles will kick my butt a little bit. But that's okay. But that's okay. And it's just I love that, too, because when I'm you know, when I'm climbing up those things, Katahdin was, you know, was a

challenge. And it's like when I get up there and I'm, you know, halfway into this thing and I still got a lot of challenging hikes to do and climbing to do and my legs hurting, my back is hurting. I just push through it and then you get you're grateful when you get to the spot. That's a beautiful you know, you get up there and you're like, Wow, look where I am, you know, and look what I just did, you know? So it really is an amazing journey to be able to do some of those

things. And some of those things you accomplished are just they're just incredible. I mean, I can't wait to see the movie, you know, really take a look at it and check it out because it sounds like you've you've done some great, great stuff. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I

had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I

don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I

found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Absolutely right. Mm hmm. Yeah, Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. yeah. Listen, I. I did both of those. I did it like your brother for a while because I had. I was afraid of letting certain people know, you know, I had a decent job. I made good money. I didn't want to rock the

boat. Right. Especially after years of not making good money, being a good old alcoholic. And there was times where everybody knew I didn't drink, but I would never tell anybody I was an alcoholic. I mean, obviously family or close friends, but not work wise at all. Like nobody at work? No. And then but today, you know, I'm able to go out there and tell almost anyone, almost any in the right thing. I don't blab it. But in the right situation, if somebody starts talking about it, I'll I'll make

that mention. You know, somebody said I was at a meeting today, I went to a nooner meeting today, which I don't usually go to, and I went there and somebody said a line. He said, You know, I told some of my friends, just like you're talking about some people who I used to run with and drink with and stuff. And he said, If you ever think you don't, you can't find a way out. He goes, I found it. Just give me a call. I found the way out. And that's

all he tell them, right? And he said, and and several of his friends have called him up and he brought them into the program, he says, including one that has over 30 years of sobriety. Right. And I mean, that's what we could do today. You know, we can do that today, but we can only do

that if people know, right? We can't do that If nobody knows, if nobody knows on my street, like people on my street now know, you know, they didn't they actually they didn't even know five years ago or six years ago. But people on my street, the people that I'm comfortable with, they know that I'm an alcoholic and I'm in recovery. So if I get a you know, they come knocking on my door, Hey, I think I need help. Lisa. I am available to

help them. So that is part of the beauty of this program is us doing that. Yeah. Absolutely.

Matt

the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. this is the

conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down.

It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too.

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I

empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I yeah.

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal.

Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and

triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. this is the conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your

life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down. It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it

felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too. I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got

nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life

threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. this is the conundrum. If you're so if you're thinking of getting sober and the thing that is making you think I don't want to do this, I'm going to be boring. How does life go on without alcohol? Your

life is going to get better. All the things that you're worried about not happening, that you have to hang on to the drink for are all the things you're going to get because you put the drink down. It's counterintuitive, but yeah, you have one hell of a story and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it

felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too. I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got

nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life

threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. and that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too.

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I

empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I yeah.

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal.

Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and

triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into

my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too. I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got

nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life

threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. that's what you know, It's funny you said that it felt like that for me when I got sober. Like I'm going back to my childhood. I'm going back to the things that brought me joy. Before alcohol came into my life and it felt so weird. I don't think I've articulated that until I heard you say that right now. Me too.

I would make the case that that's that's a real low bottom in the sense that to feel that humiliation in front of a loved one. Your wife and the doctors say, no, no, no, it's right here on the paper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did this test. Here it is. The blood alcohol level is 0.8. You're double that. You're really messed up. And to have that, I got nothing here. I got nothing. I'm living another life that you don't know about. That's. I hear that. And I

empathize there. I'm like, Oh, that's a kick to the gut. And it becomes a normal part of your day that that is your routine, that you go to the liquor store, that you you dumped the ball, you put it in the VitaminWater, you chug it down, you go in the house, and then you start to believe that, well, that's what normal behavior is. Everybody does that. No, this is wildly abnormal behavior. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I yeah.

Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal.

Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and

triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. yeah. And I yeah. Yeah, your wife is. So that's two things that she did that are incredibly smart is to haul yourself back to the

hospital. Because if you're brand new and listening and you're thinking of stopping, it's life threatening sometimes, depending on where you are in the progression of your alcoholism. If you stop that, you might have big withdrawal symptoms, you might not. But if you have them, you must seek medical care. This could be life threatening. You could die from alcohol withdrawal. Some you've you're very lucky. Ben, tell me a little bit about growing up. What was the family like? What

got you to this point? What moved it to the place where you might start drinking? What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A

piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that

could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the

stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like,

what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't

drink, that is approachable. You could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think,

well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense. You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough

Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do

with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story? Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you.

Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. What are we talking about for age when you're doing this? Freud himself. Oh, okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point

where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't.

Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of

alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. Freud himself. okay. And it's a spectrum. Yeah. How about your brother? You got a twin brother. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local

school district. This is something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. All I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody. So where do we get to the point where you get sober? You are a rudimentary swimmer at best, and you get to the point where you doing marathon swimming and triathlons? How does that happen? Oh, yeah. That is definitely alcohol. A piece of your brain. That's stubbornness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's the one. That's the one. I've seen the Save the Bay

one. I looked at that going over the bridge. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. I think Michael Phelps would probably pick up on that. I think normal people wouldn't. Yeah, you're numb. Mm hmm. Me too. Yeah. My head's already, like, spinning a little bit of. Where are places around here that could benefit from this? When you're saying schools, I'm like, I, I can think of, like, schools around here, even my local school district. This is

something that's beneficial. So here's one of the things that I really like that I'm passionate about is breaking the stigma of alcoholism. I look at what Bill did with the second A of AA as a necessary thing in the time, but imagine if we didn't have to live in the shadows and fear the stigma. If we didn't have to be anonymous and we had role models that are readily available, what would that do? Could we reach

more people? And to see somebody like you who you lived a life of privilege and then you took on something of, I can't even imagine swimming all the way up to Providence, the Bay would freak me out once I get north of Jamestown and see some of those some of those factories and stuff and like, what's in that water? But to know and I see BLOCK Island from the beach and you have to squint

your eyes. I'm like, you're going to swim all the way there to be able to accomplish something like this after getting sober of that tells me I don't have to swim to BLOCK Island. I can live a good life not drinking. I can bring the bar down. Yeah. I think it is so important to have tangible people, whether it's the the dad in the neighborhood that everybody knows is awesome but doesn't drink, that is approachable. You

could be the only person. Some of these people come into contact where they feel comfortable saying, I think I have a problem. I know you did. What do I do in having that person available? It could be life changing to so many people. And this is the AA. I'm an AA person, but this is the thing with AA that drives me insane is the the black and white think, well, I have to do this. I can't break this anonymity of like, let's be flexible here in terms of where it makes sense.

You know, that that to me is like the greatest compliment. That's the greatest thrill is somebody asking me for help with some. I'm like that I could I can have a hand in somebody getting sober that's like the greatest thing ever. So if you want to find out about Swim Tough, which is Ben's movie, How I Swam My Way Out of the Bottle. You got to swim tough Rt.com. This is this website is absolutely gorgeous. You however, you made this man. I would like to take lessons. This is a

fantastic website. It's a fantastic story. I cannot wait to watch this. And just as somebody who used to swim and had an alcohol problem, I know this will speak to me and I really believe that reaching out to people with this could be the way a lot of people get their lives saved. You're doing God's work, then? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. My head spinning on what we could do with this. Where else can we contact you? What are really great places to hook up with your story?

Now, you got back to me right away. That was like, the quickest email I ever got back from somebody when I reached out. So if you're. If you're thinking about it and like, Hey, Ben seems like the one guy who would be somebody who can help me reach out. Because looking at the smile on Ben's face right now, you're doing him more of a service than he's probably doing for you. Ben, thank you for coming on. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. And thank you

for this movie. I really appreciate you doing this for our audience today. And we'll see everybody next week by everybody.

Steve

right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, man.

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