It is so hard to get sober. And there's those first few moments in days and weeks when you get sober are pain awful? At least they were for me, Steve. Sometimes we talk about this stuff so much we forget. Why do we keep doing this? There must be something great about being sober that you might not realize. Back in the day, I used to watch Imus on MSNBC because I guess I'm older than I thought I was. And I was fascinated more about radio shows on TV to see how a radio show actually worked. And
he talked about being sober. And I just thought, if you're sober, it's sort of like you can hold your breath longer than somebody else or you cross your legs in a certain way, like if you got to go pee. But it's not. Things are really good. And I thought about this because on Monday night, there are these two guys who come to our meeting, who come to our meeting because their meeting closed down Gordon and
Mike. And what made me think about this is Mike said Gordon is his best friend, which was shocking to me because you have one guy who's kind of very artistic, kind of just says whatever comes to his mind. Nice guy. But he's he's more spontaneous with what he says. And Gordon doesn't say much of anything. But when Gordon talks, what he has to say is so damn important and serious. Because I've gone to meetings of Gordon and it's been like months before I've heard him open his mouth.
He's listening, but when he actually has to open his mouth, it's always good. And Gordon is a mechanic. Blue collars, blue collar. Could be. Mike is an artist as artistic as you might think, but they're best friends. And that made me think of these things that are great about sobriety that you can end up with a best friend who is so different than you because the one thing that you have in common is that sobriety, peace. And that that being the only thing and there's like a whole
bunch of other things. But that made me think about, like what's great that you can almost brag about when you're sober.
couple of things you said is first thing is how difficult those early days of sobriety can be.
Yeah, they suck.
And. And they can, Right? And they do. They do. They suck. They suck. Because if you're if you're somebody who really struggled with alcohol where you couldn't go more than a few days or maybe even a few hours with alcohol, trying to figure out how to get through those first few days and then weeks in the month, it's really, really tough.
I will say this for me, and I've said this before, the first few years were tough for me and not because so much of the drinking, but because so much of the other stuff that I was dragging around with me. And it is it is amazing that, I think, I think what happens and we talk we talk about it all the time and it's talked about in our program all the time is there has to be a point where we surrender, right?
And that gets us to say, Listen, I'm willing to try this or, you know, you know, I'm willing to do whatever it is to get better. And, you know, once you start really working this program, at least from my experience and from most experience of the people that I know who've stuck around this program, you know, the things you get out of it are so much bigger than you can ever imagine, so much bigger. literature tells us we're a lot that typically wouldn't mix right what it that's
Yeah.
what you're saying about Mike and and Gordon like you would be surprised you know and I think you find a lot of relationships like that a lot of relationships in this program because we were bonded by that alcoholism. And first of all, we have to be non-judgmental because that person who we may disagree with on a lot of aspects of our life and how we live our life may be the person we need in a moment. So we have to allow that stuff to go. You know, go by the wayside for the
most part. You know, again, there's obviously there's exceptions to those rules, but so you get a lot of these strange bedfellows in friendships
Yeah.
because of, you know, because of the shared misery that we've had and all I can tell you is that and you've heard this before, you may have heard it on this podcast if you're a faithful listener, sorry, but if I if I got just what I wanted out of this program, I would have sold myself way short. You know? I mean, there were things there of things that have happened in my life that I just couldn't even understand, like I couldn't even
realize. And, you know, some of them are really, really small things, like friendships, right? Like friendships
Mm hmm.
like this. And I
Yeah,
always.
that's a pretty big one.
Right. And they are. And that is a big one. And, you know, we talk about it with John and I. John and I met in this program and went to meetings and I did not know John well. I didn't do much with him. And then one day I heard him talking about hiking and I always wanted to hike, although I never did much. And next thing you know, John and I are, you know, huge hiking buddies. I mean, we you know, we hike all all the time together. And that's one of those friendships, one of those unique
friendships. And and just like other people like John and I, there's a lot of things we don't agree on or we don't mix on. Right? There's a lot of different things. But the important stuff we do right, if John needs me, I'm there. If I need him, he's there. And that and I'll tell you just on that subject, it's allowed me to have a lot of patience and understanding of people who I don't agree with. This program is one of the this one of the
benefits of this program. It's allowed me to sort of navigate some of those uncomfortable places in life that we all get to and like, oh, wow, this this person has actually believes that or says that or feels that way. It allows me to be a lot less judgmental in those situations than I ever were. Was my whole life.
I see those as superficial differences now. Yeah. So if your political beliefs are different than mine, that's on the surface. Mm hmm. Because down under it are views on sobriety are the same, if not similar. Right, And that's enough to bond over. And I can have a political argument with somebody who believes different things without having an argument. Not an argument, but more of like a discussion, a political
discussion of Tell me more. I'm just kind of interested why you believe that and you can actually listen to somebody without being offended or that doesn't have to come up and you still have plenty of other things to Right. talk about. Yeah. I sat next to somebody on a beach in a beach meeting who was an Orthodox Jew. She was kind of dressed head to toe in black, and she was taking notes
in her book in Hebrew. And I'm sitting next to this woman in a meeting, and we had enough to talk about regardless because we had Oh, one yeah, thing in common that we're both sick and suffering. Yeah, And that difference was superficial. I don't think I've ever, until right now, been able to articulate that yeah. the differences feel superficial.
And I think they are right now. Some people would argue, some people would argue that this day and age, they're probably not. But but I understand what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying is that those aren't the important things that I look at. Like you said, the truth is we can have conversations about that if we so choose. You know, if we choose to do that. yeah, but there's just so many other things. I mean, yeah, you talked about going out for some sushi
tonight. You know, just, just being able to have. Oh, you know, just being able to have that family time that,
Yes,
that in that that's solid quality family time. Right? Not the crazy family time. I mean, I could have told you years and years ago during my dry drunk that I had family time going on, but it wasn't quality family time, you know, or if I was drinking, you know, because I would I was able to not drink when I was doing some family stuff, but I was always thinking about drinking, you know, So. So I you know, I wasn't I wasn't
happy then either. But in this day and age, you know, I mean, I got two grandkids coming up from New Jersey. They'll be here tomorrow night. And then my son, his two kids will be up and my daughter will be up over the weekend. Many, many times. And, you know, I just texted a picture I had of the two kids and like, Papa, I can't wait to get here. Right. I'm like, and that's the truth. Like, I can't wait until they get here.
lots of good stuff.
awesome, fun, exhausting, all those things, you know? But I can't wait. I can't wait to get here. I can't wait to spend next four or five days with them. And then, you know, and when it comes time for them to go home next Thursday or next Wednesday, I'll be happy that they're gone because I'll be tired and,
You can take a nap.
you know, take a nap. Take a nap during the day. Probably so. But some of the things are just so beautiful. And, you know, and then obviously it's just you know, it's a blessings of waking up in the morning. You know, I wake up in the morning now and it's like I haven't even thought about waking up feeling sick from drinking. You know, like feeling feeling bad, whether it's physically sick or emotionally sick or mentally sick. Like, I had this not having that feeling
is just incredible. It really is an incredible feeling to wake up and and be free from worrying about that.
We talked a lot about this at dinner because I was fleshing out a topic and we went to a little hole in the wall sushi joint near me. It was fantastic. And my wife looked through the wine list and she's like, Oh, Saki, I didn't know you could have it warm and cold. And like, I only remember being warm, but cold, Yeah. I guess. But the thing was,
here's what I was free from. I was free from thinking about because I would have had to have a drink there because it was a special occasion and because we went out early enough to dinner that we did like a 5 p.m. dinner because it was early enough. I would have to continue drinking at home, or if I didn't, I would be miserable for Mm. the rest of the night. It would have been a demarcation on the day where there was a pivot. I didn't have to worry about that Yeah, and that's a great feeling
that I feel free from that. And on a side note, I'm free from that bill. I could order an additional cut roll instead of buying a beer or Suzuki or whatever the hell it would be.
Absolutely. I mean, 100%. I mean, that's exactly the way I drink too. Like I, you know, like I said, I could actually absolutely go out to dinner, even if it was just my wife and I go out to dinner and have a drink or two drinks and be done with it because, you know, I was always concerned about drinking and driving, nations. They always that would be untrue. But most of the times I was and, but
It was
I
always
would always
on my mind.
I was, I would always go back home and finish the job Once I got home I'd like, okay, now I got to go finish the job. And I've talked about it before. It was like I would like I would, I would stay up as late as I needed to stay up. I if there was something in between that I didn't feel like drinking in front of my wife because a lot of times I wouldn't and I would wait till she went to bed. And if she went to bed at 9:00, then I would start my heavy drinking at 9:00 and get where I needed
to go. That's just the way it was. And again, to be free of that, to be free of that obsession over, you know, over alcohol and that. Yeah. Oh, it's such a beautiful, beautiful
thing. and if, you know, if you struggle, if you think about that, if you're out there listening to this and these are things that sort of are piquing your interest, like, yeah, I feel that way sometimes too, then it might, yeah, you might be having some difficulties with this, with this alcohol thing and, and you may need to really find yourself a program, you know.
I always was terrified of being pulled over. So hum. one of the things that's great is if I know there's a DUI checkpoint, I almost Yeah. want to drive through Yeah, it almost to brag. I have no worry of DUI checkpoints or being out late or coming home from somewhere and worrying if I get pulled over, is there going to be a problem? right, If I get pulled over now, it's because a blinker is out right, or I drove too fast.
Yeah, Not because it is something that might get me a couple of hundred dollars in a ticket, not land me in jail. right, And I know for certainty that's going to be the case, because I'm not I'm not going to throw a punch at a police officer. right. So I know for certainty when I'm driving, I'm probably not going to get arrested.
You know, it's interesting. I never thought about it before. I was arrested for a DUI. back in back in the seventies when I was when I was 19 years old. I just. And what happened was I was arrested, and then I got a lawyer, and I pleaded. I pleaded down to reckless driving. Well, I don't know what the rules were. I'm assuming it was the same back then, but reckless driving was a felony. And I can remember filling out applications like saying, have you ever been arrested by a for a felony? And
I always put no call. I don't know if I ever realized it was a felony. those that's what you face out there, right? today you tell you go to jail, you go,
Yeah,
you know, I mean,
I
second.
mean, business now,
Yeah, second, third, certainly the third one. You go to jail, you go to jail. There's like no passing. Go on that one. You know, you get out of your first one too. It's, um. yeah, it's. It's big time now. So I'm pleased with that. you know, we go all the time. You know, my wife is like your wife. She'll go out and have a glass of wine,
maybe two on a certain night. So I'm always driving and, and it's fine because she drinks like a normal person and she can have a couple of glasses of wine and doesn't have to worry about it. So the beautiful, the is the beautiful thing. You know, the other thing is, is we talked about it right. Is that talked about a little bit of last week's show. But with my brother passing, I had a lot of work to do. Right. I was the one sort of who was checked up on who, who was who had had to do all the
arrangements. There's only three of us left now, and it sort of fell on me. and the fact that I'm able to do that today and the fact that I'm able to do that without resentment today, Right, is a blessing because I would have done all the things I'd done today, but I might have been pissed off about it because I got two other siblings and I would be like, Well, what are you guys doing? You know? so I'm able to do so many more things today and do them with gratitude.
I mean, I'm happy that I could do that for my brother, do him with gratitude and with grace and and not be all tied up in some of the other emotions that I had my whole life that I struggled with my whole life.
that is another positive. Is that comfort with emotion? I had an A talk with one of my employees today, and she is in a situation where her dad is hurting. Her dad reconnected with his mother after a long time. He was given up for adoption because she had him when she was very, very, very, very young and he was in foster care. He got adopted and
eventually they connected. But the rest of the family never accepted him, but the mom did, and now the mom is gone and those people around who never accepted them are asserting things. And because she is his daughter by association, she's also shunned. And this is very painful for her. Hmm. And I could have a conversation where I was empathetic and listen and be present, which is what I think she needed. And she mentioned I'm just not very good with death. My answer is nobody's good with death.
Hmm. There's nobody out there who has. I'm really good at when people die, but there's a comfort in knowing I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable in those situations, which wouldn't be the case before now. It's like, yeah, nobody's good with death. So if I'm awkward in those situations, I'm going to be okay with it and I'm not going to judge myself. I'm going to do my best. And that is something that never would have been possible
before I got sober. That's not a you get comfortable with that because it's a side effect of putting down the booze. It's like your liver heals and you get comfortable with being uncomfortable. It is. You learn some tools when you get sober, and that's what feels good. right.
Now, you learn some tools. I think you're you're more apt to try to do things right. You're more apt. I mean, our program, again, our program directs us in that in that way. So. But you're more apt to try some things and to try feeling like that. Listen, we talk about it. I talk about it. I was the problem. I am the problem. I always will be the problem. It's a selfish you know, we all came in here. Many of us came in here very selfish. If if in no other parts, at least about our
drinking. I was selfish with a lot of things. So when I got sober and I got this program and I decided to do this program and then let this program right. Well, so what we're talking about is living this program, then I would I had to make myself less selfish. And so that's been there for people. We had a friend speaking that we have a you know, I, I mentioned
that we had a friend. I you know, my wife had a friend and it was my friend to who had come to some meetings at that Monday night, meeting with me back in 2017 and knew she had a problem, raised her hand, signed our book or did all that stuff, but did
not want to program. And in the last year or two has been drinking very heavily and she passed away on Sunday and one of the other friends is another woman who's the three of them who were really good friends and growing up came to my door the other day, yesterday, came to our door and my wife was taking a nap and she came in and I looked at I'm like, Is everything okay? And she said, no. And she told me that Sarah had passed away I was able to stand there and give her a
moment and give her a hug. And big thing is not try to fix it. Right. Not try to say anything about it. Just be present and that's that's such a big difference for me. And then get her in there, get her drink of water and let her and my wife chat. They've known each other since seventh grade, you know, and let them get together. And that's who they went after. The two of them went out to dinner tonight you know, let them have their time and, you know, it's a
big it's a big loss. I mean, this this woman who came her name is Cathy came over and she had known this woman since third grade. You know, it's a long friendship, right? These are
Yeah,
women and these are women in their seventies. And yeah, a long, long, long friendship. So a big loss for them. And but even they understand that it's over now, you know, still what she chose. She's at peace. But my point is, is that I was able to do the next great thing, which wasn't much. It was just being a little bit empathetic. Empathetic and
that might be a lot.
right. And and let them know, you know, that I'm here and and it's all such a beautiful thing today. It's such a beautiful thing.
The biggest thing that you can do for people is be empathetic and it seems like I'm not doing anything. It might be just repeating back your sentences that you're saying and that can mean the most. I learned how to be empathetic and to connect with people through a 12 step program. Learning through the steps as a part of that a much better at my job, I can have conversations with people where I'm not trying to solve people's problems, I'm just repeating back. Really. It sounds like you're really
hurting. Sounds like it sounds like this is out of your control and that's making you uncomfortable. It sounds like you're not good with death. Right. You know, nobody's good with death. Yeah. And it's okay to feel awkward and I don't know what to do. And I had a conversation with the same person today where I said, You should pray for your family member. She mentioned she was religious. I said, think about praying for them and praying for the things in your life, for them that you want for
you. And you can let that go because there's no control that you have and how those people feel and think about it through their mind. There's probably shame in what their mother went through. And your dad's a reminder of that shame and he's Right. done nothing wrong but be born. But because he was born, Mhm. there's that feeling of shame that he's different now. It's the easiest human emotion to go around and judge. It takes maturity to say, I'm uncomfortable here with you. It
reminds me of shame. How can I get past that Mhm. and get to know you? That's one of the things that we have, is we can you can learn how to handle and be present in terrible emotions that you want to run from, but still deal with it and not like I'm going to deal with it and then it's going to be better. I'm going to deal with it. It may not be better, but I'm okay with that.
Yeah. We can't, we can't always plan the outcomes. Right. We can be there, we can show up but we can always plan the outcomes. one of the things I've learned is that sometimes all I can do and you said you know, it's the small stuff, we talked a little bit about the beginning, it's the small stuff. And one of the things that I realized and it always was an easy, easy for me, I'm a fixer type of person, right? I like to fix things. I like to control
Me too.
things. So when people would bring me the problems, I would always try to offer solutions and try to fix it. And I still do that sometimes today. But I've learned today and I do that with my buddy Mike. And, you know, we were talking about something recently and I gave him a you know, wha I thought was a good solution. And then he talked to somebody else and they didn't think it was and him and I'm okay with that and I'm okay with that. It's like, you know, he's a grown adult. He makes his
own decisions. And I told him, like, you know, listen, I know what I'm talking about because it's what I do. Like, I know what I'm talking about. And but you do whatever you think is right for you. And I can do that today. But one of the things I can do sometimes and we were talking about our friend Bruce, who was coming to Monday night for a while. He will come back and do some more. Bruce said something. I was going to a meeting with him a couple weeks ago and he said such a great
thing. This is what I love about this program is you get this, this information, he said, You know, some I have to ask a person when they start talking, do you just want me to sit here and listen or do you
I've heard him say this.
write or do you want
Yeah?
me to offer some advice? I think that's a beautiful question,
Mm
right?
hmm.
Do you want me to sit and listen or do you want me to give you some suggestions? Right. Because if you want me, I can do either, right? I can do either. And I was like, Wow, that's a great response. Sometimes when somebody starts dumping and just ask them, like, what are you looking for? Do you just need air to chew on? Or you're looking for some ideas or help
or one? Man And those, those are the things I love about this program is like, that's a tool that I can use next time that somebody starts, especially somebody like my wife, like my. Yeah, a lot of times my wife just wants to bitch and complain or whatever. Tell me about her, how she's feeling. She's not looking for a solution. a beautiful thing. I could I could say to her, Do you want me to help? Do you want me to do something? Or you just want me
to listen? And she'll tell me, Yeah, my wife will tell me what she what she needs from me.
I generally find nine times out of ten that people who are bitching about that or have a problem don't want you to solve it. I agree. A good key of them wanting you to help them with their problem in a solution is they'll ask right? People who want a solution are pretty overt. I know I am. Yeah, If I talk to somebody and say I have a problem and I need help with it, that's what I say. I have a problem and I need help with right. it. This is what I need
help with. If I'm not saying that, whether I'm conscious of it or not, when somebody tries to solve it for me, I get annoyed. Yeah, So most of the time, if people are coming to you and not saying they're just bitching about something, it really is, you're going to probably be better off just empathizing and not solving it.
I think you're spot on there. I think you're right that most people will say something like, I don't know what to do, or I thought they'll lead in with something like that. They're looking for some help. And if they're not giving you those signals, then they're not looking for you to help them solve it. T just. They just need to vent. And trust me, I have plenty of times where I just need to vent and just get stuff off my chest and I don't need
anybody to fix it. And those times, I do need people to fix it. And I call them up and I do. And you know, the other thing about our program is we're programmed to ask for help. And
Yeah,
today I realized if I need help, I'm not afraid to ask for help today in any you know, in almost any aspect, but, mostly behavioral issues. If I have an issue that's really bothersome or something I need to figure out or, you know, a feeling that's, you know, a feeling of anger or whatever that's getting at me, then I need to call in. I need to get some help with that. for me, that's calling other alcoholic for other people, maybe doing some therapy work, whatever works for you is what you need
to do. But it's a beautiful it's a beautiful part of this program for me.
modern management fits well with 12 step logic. Modern management philosophies say asking for help is a sign of strength. So if you're struggling with something at work, go and ask somebody for help. Ask a peer, ask somebody on your staff, ask your manager. Go and ask for advice. How to do that? That's a sign of strength. If you don't, then don't be mad at anybody but yourself that you failed. That's something that you have to do to get recovery, to find recovery in the 12 step
groups. And for the most part, even if you're not in a 12 step group getting sober, I don't find many people just drop the drink. And I've done it totally alone in isolation Yeah. that even in Instagram communities, it's about helping each other, even if it's only in the comments or in a Facebook group of saying, Hey, I'm struggling with this. Can you help me? That is the number one thing. And it's freeing. Knowing that that's the case, I can
bring it into other areas. One of these things that really is great for me is not having to worry about what I'll be drinking or if I'll be drinking. Going to a company function, a wedding, big social gathering, just dinner that that would always be on my mind that if I didn't drink, especially if it was open bar, I felt like I was Mm shorting hmm. myself. Mm hmm. I was ripping myself off by not taking advantage of something. Now it's okay because
that's off the table. My brainpower that would be focused that way is on other things, and I do like sitting in the corner watching people get sloppy and say and have this. I don't know if this is a defect too, but I have a feeling of superiority when I'm at that picnic or that that company outing and I see people getting sloppy and say, it's not me and I don't have to worry Mm about hmm. that.
Yeah, I've been on some I've been in several sales meetings there where we've gotten together. I worked for a big company, so sales meeting brought in people from all around. It was usually, you know, we're in hotels and stuff like that. And it was really interesting to see the guys who went out, you know, and they'd come into the meeting and we'd have big lunch, we'd have all day meetings, and they'd be just hung over like crazy.
Mm.
And I would just look at that saying, Thank God I don't need to do that, think. And, you know, I have and I have one of these things coming up. I haven't done much. I mean, I haven't been asked to do much with my job and my boss reached out to me last week and wants me to go to a conference and and the July in Arizona. And and it is one of those things. Right.
It's one of those things where, you know, big party, big conference and Arizona, big resort, lots of drinking, lots of party and all that kind of stuff. Plenty of people don't do that, but plenty of people do. And a lot of the activity is around is is revolves around drinking and partying and all. But you know, I'm glad I don't same thing. I'm glad I don't have to worry about it. I'm glad I don't have to go there and watch myself. So don't make a fool out of myself. I'm glad
Mm
I
hmm.
don't have to go there and drink in a way that I'm not comfortable drinking. I don't have to drink at all, but I like trying to manage it while I'm there. I'm glad I don't have to do any of that. And you know, we're heading into the you know, we're recording this before the 4th of July. We're heading into that holiday. That's a big holiday for a lot of people, right? This whole time. It's a it's a tough, tough time. Summertime in general. Maybe something we could talk about
next week. Summertime in general can be a tough time if
Oh, yeah,
you're new, if you're new in sobriety and, you know, so I have a house full of people. Again, nobody drinks to excess. Nobody drinks to excess, but they will be drinking, right? There will be booze in my fridge. There will be no IPAs. There's hard seltzers. That's what these guys drink. That's what they drink today. Well, they'll they'll be there and I'm fine with that. Everybody drinks responsibly. They, they drink in a way that I. I have no clue. Right. It makes no sense to me how they
right.
drink. that's why it works like they do their thing. I'm okay with it and everybody has a good time. yeah, it's, it's, it's great not having to manage any of that really, really bad behavior.
Well, I'm excited that I got sober before hard seltzer. Oh, Hard yeah. seltzer weren't a thing when I got sober,so I'm old enough to say that I've at least missed one fad that came through. Yeah, I don't know anything about what a hard seltzer is and what it's made of or what it tastes like or anything. I totally missed the boat on that and I don't feel bad. I remember there were times I was dry and I'd be dry through October fest and I feel like I was missing out on something yeah.
because I didn't have an October fest. October fest comes and goes and it's not a big deal. Matter of fact, I feel good looking at that and saying that was such a big thing for me. Right. When the Octoberfest Beers came out Yeah, and it was part of my personality and now I don't care or yeah, thinking about, Wow, it's warm enough now the summer ale is out right. or the winter beer was out and now it's all I have to worry about. Then I guess it wasn't that big of a deal. It just was
a beer. It was a way of enhancing my buzz, not enhancing the time of year. absolutely. It was the opposite. We would love to hear from you. What are the things that made sobriety better than you thought? What were things that surprised you or excite you now or make you feel like this was like, so good to get sober because I'm living my life this way? That made how I was trying to get through life looked pitiful. And I look back and say, Why the hell was I drinking to get over
this problem? When I could have done something different and not had those problems and then open other doors? You can reach me Mad at Sober Friends podcast on the website. Sober Friends Podcast on Instagram at Sober Friends Pod. Could you do us a favor? Can you go to Apple podcast and write us a review and a rating and tell us what you like? We love your feedback or go to Spotify and give us a rating. It lets other people know that, Oh, this show's got a lot of ratings, it's got some
reviews. I can learn from this. Maybe I should click on this and listen a little bit. Steve, thanks for great show
Hey, Matt. Thanks. I won't talk to you before the 4th of July. Enjoy the holiday.
you
well,
two.
we'll probably talk sometime shortly after that.
We'll do some.
All
All
right.
right, everybody, have a great week. See you next week, everybody.