E129: AA or Not AA: Tim Phillips on Why He Left the Program and How He Stayed Sober

The Wingmen today on the Sober Friends podcast is Tim Phillips. Tim Phillips is the host of the Sober and Happy podcast. We try to be open minded with a growth mindset here. Tim has a lot of similarities to my story and he forks off at a certain place. Tim, Welcome to the Sober Friends podcast. 
Thank you, ma'am, for having me on. And I look forward to catching up with you. 
Absolutely. I was looking forward to this. I was doing a lot of bingeing today on your podcast as I was. I train when I have somebody on one of my character defects as I overprocessed and overthink and feel like I have to be overprepared and think of everything. And sometimes that takes me away from just having a conversation with somebody. But I listen to a lot because your podcast is incredibly I think you said it before we came on. It's bite sized for the most part with my A.D.D. mind. I can get through 12 to 15 minutes of this. I've got something and I'm on my way. I like practical and you bring practical. So I'm excited to talk to you. What brings you here? So if you're doing a sobriety podcast, you must have had a problem with alcohol. Let's go to the beginning. What gets you to such a nice place where we're talking about overcoming the addiction to alcohol? 
Yeah, it definitely 
Okay. 
wasn't the plan I had when I set off in my life goals and I set off to drink and, you know, my. 
I've said that recently, that, you know, when I got out of college, when I was taking my degree for is when I get out of college, I need to get into an AA group. I really want to join AA because that's what I'm working towards. Now, it turns out in college I kind of was working towards that parallel to my studies with my drinking. But yeah, we don't ever plan on being here. We end up here. 
Exactly. And, you know, it's funny you talked about when you got out of college, so I didn't do a whole lot of drinking in high school. I was raised by an amazing mom who is also very religious. So drinking was against the rules and and I hate to disappoint my mom, so I didn't do a lot of drinking the few times I did, I knew I was going to drink again, like from the first time I knew it was going to happen again. And I just kept thinking, Man, when I get to college, man, this is going to be fun. And so I went to college, I had a blast. But, you know, I realized early on that I drank differently than a lot of the other guys I went to college with that they partied just as hard as me. But there does seem to be something a little different. But I still figured, you know, once college is over time to get serious about life, I'll settle down, I'll find a wife, I'll have some children, I'll have a good career, and, like, I'll just drink like a normal person, you know, come home, maybe have a Scotch, you know, help the kids with homework. And that was going to be it. And that wasn't my story, you know? I mean, I want to be doing a podcast about recovery. If
Did you really have your mind on Scotch at, like, 21, 22, getting out of college? 
you know, the reason why I say Scotch specifically is my the guy I moved to, I grew up in a small town in Northern California, and me and one of my friends moved to Phoenix, go to school together. We were roommates. We threw the same crazy parties. We did all of that together. And my plan of getting, like, settling down and, like, drinking responsibly is exactly what he did. And he's a Scotch drinker. So like, when I imagine, like, how it should have been, like, I look at him as that example because that's exactly what he did. He comes home from work, he has a scotch or two. He's an amazing father. He goes to every one of his daughter's dance recitals. Like drinking just is something he does. It's not it doesn't control his life. It's not his top priority, you know, And he's able to do it responsibly. And that was my plan. 
Yeah. Mine, too. 
Yeah. 
I had a I had parents who got alcohol problems. And just hearing about your friend from college, I can't relate to him at all of just, Oh, I'm going to do this normally and do other stuff. And this is just a little something I do to relax. Like drinking a cup of coffee outside and moving on. I still can't get my head around that. 
didn't understand it either. And like I said, we eat party just as hard as I did, you know, So. But he just it never was a problem with them, you know, He was always responsible. And it still to this day. 
You talked about in a recent episode about the testing with rats and putting them together of like simulating a social environment. And it almost seems like for a lot of people, colleges like that, because I just went to a reunion, I guess it's 25 years, my 25 year reunion, and I went with people who drank quite a bit. We went out, they didn't drink at all
Yeah. 
and they were like, Oh, 
And that's what you know and it's funny because that blows me away that like there are people who don't drink in this world simply because they don't want to. Like, 
my wife 
like, 
is like 
I remember 
that. 
I remember when I first got sober and I and I met a coworker and, and we were at a social event, you know, like Christmas party or something. And and she and I were so worried about how am I going to tell people I don't drink, you know, And what if someone offers me a drink? And like, I heard her say, No, thank you, and someone's like, Oh, you don't drink? And she's like, No. And I'm like, Oh, tha God. Another recovering alcoholic. Like, I, I automatically assume, like if you don't drink, it's because 
I did 
you 
that 
like, 
too. 
Yeah. And so, like, I walked up to her and I'm like, oh, thank God someone else doesn't drink, you know? And they did a lot of targeting. I realize. Like, she just she's like, Yeah, I drank a couple of times. I didn't like how it made me feel. So I just don't drink. And to me that sounds so weird to 
It's 
me, 
so bizarre. Like now that you've told me that I feel like I have less in common with you because you don't drink. 
Yeah, 
Or. 
exactly. Are people who drink normally like I'm. I don't know how many times I heard someone say, like, man, if I could drink normally,I  would drink all the time. It's like, well, and, and it additionally that actually makes sense, you know. But you know, that's how we think. And I think that that's what got us to where we were. 
If you have that mindset of I wish I could just drink normally, or if I could do this, then I would be able to drink more normally and moderately. If you're 
yeah
in that mindset, it's already broke. You can't recover because the people like my wife who drinks normally, which means very infrequently, she never thinks about it that way. She only thinks about, Well, I could have a drink, but I'm very worried I'm going to be too tired or I I'm going to get a headache, so maybe I will. But then she'll have, like, half a glass and put it aside and like, I'm done. Which to me is 
yeah
I always felt like alcohol abuse
yeah I could never get that. And then and, and the other thing is like you'd hear a lot of people say, I wish there was a pill that would help me drink normally. I'm like, So we're hoping that there's a drug we can take so we could continue to drink. You know? 
it. It's just easier at that point not to drink because that's what normal people do. They just basically don't drink. It's not a thought in their mind. And so for me, it's just a hell of a lot easier not to do so. 
Yeah, but the difference is like drinking is our solution to whatever you know. And it's so many 
Mm 
people, 
hmm. 
It's it's our solution to whatever a normal drinker, it's not their solution. So like, when we take it away, like we lose our solution, everyone else sees it as from the outside it looks like a problem, but it's our solution. So when we remove it, we removed our solution. 
Yeah. 
And if we don't find how to and other ways to treat whatever we were trying to mask down with our drinking, of course we're going to drink again because we have no other solutions. 
If you're new and you're considering maybe having a problem? Really double back and hit that 15 second thing a couple of times and listen to what Tim said again. Drinking is the solution to our problems. That's not the case with other people. That's where I realized I had a problem and everything had to change. Getting sober to me is about replacing the solution with something healthier so that alcohol isn't that thing. That is some wise advice, Tim. Tell me more. Tell me more about what the what the wreckage look like for you. 
So it's, you know, at first it was the is about even the consequence. It is. And what it was giving me, I would say the wreckage happened quickly. When I was on my 20th birthday. I was still going to college, a series of very bad decisions when I was drunk. I ended up waking up in jail when I was on my 20th birthday. We were 
There 
partying 
you go. 
the night before. There was some issue with some guys at the party. Someone said, Hey, let's go over to their house and handle them. And you know, at 3:00 in the morning, I thought that was a good idea. Three of us showed up on these guys doorstep. We knocked on the door. They didn't answer. One of the guys open the door. It was unlocked. And then the third guy said, Oh, you know what? Let's show them. Let's just take a bunch of their crap. And we did no intention of stealing it to sell it. It was just like in our drunken state of mind that sounded like good revenge, rather than waking them up and beating them up. And so we left there. They lived in an apartment complex. It obviously looked suspicious. Three guys leaving an apartment at three in the morning with the mountain bike and golf clubs and and all that. And so we got they called the cops and we got arrested. So I wake up on my 20th birthday in jail, charged with three felonies, and we were out in the desert for my for my birthday party earlier in the night. And the guy who we were, Wint, he brought his gun out to the desert 
Oh, boy. 
because drinking, because drinking and shooting guns is a good combination. When you're in the desert. And because we had it, they were actually looking at charging us for a home invasion robbery, even though we didn't use the gun in the commission of the crime. So right there I knew like alcohol is bad for me and like at 20 years old, I was like, that's it. It's bad for me. I'm not going to drink again. And that lasted for 30 days and all of that stuff like we just talked about, where I took my solution away, like all my, all the fears like and these are legitimate fears. I was looking at some serious prison time, you know, And I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to be just like my dad. My dad was sitting in state prison and in Arizona. So like, like all those things are they're like, you're going to end up just like your dad if you drink and use drugs. Like, I literally was going to end up in the same prison system as my dad. And so that scared me sober. But I didn't I didn't have a solution or any place. I didn't know how to handle fear. I didn't know how to handle anxiety. I didn't know how to handle emotions. I didn't know any of that. So I was flooded with those emotions. I did not have any healthy coping mechanisms of it. So like it was getting so bad that at the end of 30 days of being sober, I just couldn't take it anymore. So I just drank, you know? And that was the longest period of sobriety, you know, luckil I didn't go to prison. We ended up making a plea bargain. I did end up a felon for a while because of that, but I got probation and and then, honestly, as bad as that was, it all went downhill after that. 
Oh, 
Like, 
my God. Because 
now 
right 
I 
now I'm looking at you as pretty lucky just 
Yeah. 
to get off with probation and something like that. You are fortunate. 
Yeah. It was. It was. It was and it wasn't like I got hired a good attorney as a public defender that was able to to get it. It was it did help the fact that I was about to graduate college. I had no priors. You know, there was some beneficial things got probation and then, like. And then the weird thing is, there is a part in my brain that when I got the probation, I told myself, like, see, there wasn't any real consequences, you know? And so it kind of was like, yeah, it wasn't that bad. And that's the way we can kind of start justifying it, you know? And then, like I said, it only got worse from there. Now, I'm not talking legal matters. You know, I didn't get convicted of any felonies after that, but my ability to just function and how I felt inside it just kept getting worse and worse, you know? And I went do the standard things. I had trouble holding down a job, truck, repo, evicted from apartment, blew up every relationship I had. You know, I had a lot of those. And it just finally got to the point in my life. My last three years were absolutely pathetic. The only job I could hold down was a morning bartending gig. I had a lot of things that I didn't know how to deal with when I started drinking. And then you pile on all the guilt and shame of the wreckage that I caused 18 years of drinking. And I just I didn't know how to deal with that. In those last three years. I drank every waking moment of my of my existence for three years straight. I woke up, I, I grabbed a bottle before I even got out of bed, you know, took a swig before I even went to the bathroom in the morning. And then I drank and I passed out, wake up, drink and pass out, wake up, drink and pass out. And that was and I held a morning bartending gig. I would drink as much as I possibly could on my shift and hopefully would make enough in tips to get a bottle for the way home. Two packs of cigarettes and gas, money to the bar to get back to the bar the next day. And like all my hopes and dreams that I had when I was younger, everything I thought I was going to do, like that's what it all boiled down to. That's what my life goals were, you know? And it's just it was an absolute pathetic existence. But I honestly did it No way out
It was only existing hearing that is not living life 
No. 
that's existing from moment to moment and not sustainable. 
And living in the moments. Good. But not that. Yeah, 
That's not living 
not 
in the 
that. 
moment. That's. 
Yeah. That's just existing for for it was just surviving the only 
Yeah. 
way I knew how to survive. 
So it sounds like you got tired of just surviving. What was it that made you say, I got to stop here and I'm going to stop? And something was different about it. 
So the exact moment I couldn't tell you this is people ask me what my rock bottom was and I'm like, I was a blackout drunk. I sent my mom a text during a blackout, so I don't remember exactly what that 
what encouraged me to send that text. At that moment, I already conceded to the fact that I was going to kill myself like I already planned out my suicide. I knew how I was going to do it. I knew where I was going to do it. And it and I and I thought I was going to be doing the whole world a favor, you know, a lot of people say suicide is selfish, but I saw all the pain I was causing to everybody else. And I honestly thought that, oh, temporary pain of losing me was better than then, prolong pain of continuing to put the people I loved to do, watching me slowly drink myself to death. So. But I don't remember why I sent my mom that text. Now I'll tell you the moment that I conceded I needed that. I wanted to actually get better. So I sent my mom a text. 
I woke up from being passed out. My roommate was knocking on my door and said, Hey, your mom's at the door. She says she's here to take you out to dinner. Now, forgetting I made dinner plans with my mom was normal, so I just put on my shoes and I would go with it. So we're sitting at the dinner table at a mexican restaurant in Sacramento, and she grabs and she starts talking to me about rehab. And I'll tell you, I got really pissed off that she was talking to me about rehab. I hated people talking to me about my drinking. So what I decided to do, like, so I went to the bathroom to collect my thoughts. And when people would talk to me about drinking, I like to make the conversation so uncomfortable that they would never want to have that conversation with me again. So, like, if I could point out all your flaws, if I could point out how you're not a good parent, I don't care. Like I was cold and so I was sitting in the bathroom trying to compose myself and I'm like, Well, you know, here's all the shit that happened to me when I was a kid, you know? So I was ready to put a lot of the blame of my drinking onto my mom. And my mom was an amazing mother, but I was ready to do this. And right when I'm about to walk out of the bathroom, I got a text message from a friend, and I look at my phone and then I see the text message chain from my mom, and I open it up and I saw a text message where I told her, If you find me your rehab, I will go. So I realized right then I had this vision of my mom sitting at that table and that in that restaurant and thinking that all of her prayers have been answered. And I realized I was just moments away of going out, absolutely breaking her heart again, and this time doing it in a restaurant full of people. So at that moment, I actually got the first really good look at the person I'd become, and I didn't think I was going to be able to stay sober. I didn't know anybody who drank like I did that stopped drinking. So I didn't know if it was going to be possible. But I knew at that moment that my mom deserved for me to at least try. And so I went out. I sat at that table and I said, Hey, if you find me a place, I'll go, you know? And she she got on it like three days later. She's like, I got your airline ticket. You're going to Battle Creek, Michigan. I found your rehab there, and and I just decided to go
I listened to episode 31 the effects of addiction has on our families. And I I'm listening to this. Your mom sounds like the sweetest woman on the planet 
get 
and the most patient woman on 
a 
the planet. And putting her 
fuck. 
through that. 
Yeah. You know, and that's. And like everybody, what you said, like, that's exactly how everybody describes my mom. Your mom is the sweetest lady in the world. And it's funny because, like, my mom used to my mom used to have her own addiction problems. You know, my mom had a problem about alcohol and meth, you know, and she ran with my dad. You know, my dad was was a big old burly biker guy,you  know, that that spent 25 years on and off in prison, you know, and everything that goes with that. So it's weird imagining that that that my mom used to be a different version of who she is now, because I never saw that. I was thankful. I was grateful that she got sober when I was probably about three. So I don't I don't have any memories of her using. And all I got was the amazing version of the person she is now. 
Well, she learned some lessons, obviously, when she 
Yeah, 
quit drinking. There are some things that she learned that kept her sober that she could pass on to you or at least had the tools to be patient. But I can't even as a parent now thinking, oh, my God, you as my kid would be my worst nightmare. This is what I fear all the time, is that my kids will end up in addiction. And then I have to think about I got to let that go because I have no control over that. But it terrifies me. 
and that's what she had to learn. And she talks about in that episode, she went to Al-Anon because she was really struggling. And that's the one thing, is that she had to love me, but she had to let me go. And and she really conceded to the the the truth that she probably was going to see me die, that I was probably 
Well, 
going to die before. And I can't imagine a parent accepting that as a reality. But she had to because that probably is what was going to happen. I mean, I thought that's what was going to happen to. 
it's more likely than not most 
Yeah, 
people in your situation don't recover. They don't find sobriety. They end up dying. You're really the exception to the rule. 
And most of the people at the bar I hung out with, you know, a lot of them. I'm still Facebook friends, right? And and I can't even count how many of those people are now dead, 
Yeah. 
you know, And it's and it's and, and a lot of it's complications that you have from drinking heart problems. And these are these are people in their sixties and seventies. These are people in their forties and fifties that are dying. And it's and it's just a reminder of just what it's like. 
Yeah. It will kill you. It could 
Yeah, 
be suicide. It could be health. It could be in your forties. It could be in your seventies. But if you leave this untreated, more likely than not, it's going to kill you. And it's still that's still not enough for a lot of people, which is sad. We're the lucky ones. 
yeah. 
So you did you did your rehab. What was that like? I haven't been I haven't gone to a rehab. 
It was exactly what I needed, to be honest. It was it was, you know, they medically detox me the amount that I, 
I was my blood alcohol level is in the fours when I went in there and that's after flying 
Holy 
across country. 
cow. 
Yeah. That's after flying across country. And so like I definitely needed to be medically detoxed. I know I've had seizures before, you know, and so after that, that, I mean, and honestly, it wasn't, I was scared of the detox, but they'd drugged me up so much and then, and then wean me off of that detox wasn't that bad. I enjoyed rehab. Um, I enjoyed learning a lot, you know,that  we had classes all day, every day. It was like 8 hours a day. We were taking different classes and but I and it was a lot. We didn't get to leave. It was pretty much a locked down rehab facility and it was good. I liked what I learned, but I sure was scared to leave. And it was at your pace. You know, they had a program and you and you worked that program and it wasn't at your pace thing. And I dragged my feet as slow as humanly possible, trying not to get noticed because I was scared to leave because I wanted to stay sober. But I didn't think it was possible to stay sober outside of rehab. And so what happened is they noticed, I was helping people with homework multiple steps because I loved helping people. And these people were I was helping people get ready to graduate with homework that were like three weeks ahead of me. And 
Yeah, 
they're like, Well, wait a minute. Let me see your actual book. And then they saw that I've actually already did all the work. I just wasn't present in and out. And they were like, It's it's time for you to go to them. So, you know, so I enjoyed it. But like I said, if they would have offered me a janitor job there and free room and board, I probably would have stayed. That's how scared 
it's safe 
I was. 
there. 
Yeah, 
You 
it 
know, 
was. 
you're probably not going to drink and rehab. 
No. 
So what did that 
Yeah. 
look like? So now you're. You're out in the open and you're back out to the real world. What did that look like? And what was your plan for continuing to be sober? 
So I so I didn't, I didn't I mean, they, they gave us a relapse prevention plan and I had my one of my five and my ten year goals when I got out, you know, I one, I didn't know how to deal with life. I had a lot of things I needed to take care of. Adam filed taxes. Um, probably 12 years 
Oh, my God. 
license suspended in two states, failure to appear in Arizona. Like I had a lot of problems I needed to fix. Plus, you know, and that doesn't even include by trying to make things right with all my friends and family members. That was just the law. And like how to become a functional person in society again. So I got out and I just that's an issue what I was focused on because I'm like, if I'm focused solely on like fixing things, calling DMV, being on hold, the DMV like, and I was living at my mom's house, too. So one thing I knew, my mom paid for my rehab. She dropped 24 grand to send me to rehab. She didn't have an extra 24 grand she had to take that out of for one day. 
Mm 
You 
hmm. 
know? And so one thing I did know is I wasn't going to drink in my mom's house like, or while I was living with her. So I knew like, that was set in my mind. I knew it wasn't going to happen. So I was safe at that time. And then I was distracted with trying to find a job. So eventually a girl I used to drink with, her name was Tammy. She had been sober for a while, so she invited me to go to AA and so I started going to meetings with her. And then that was the next 5 to 6 years of my life was was really heavily dedicated to Alcoholics Anonymous. 
So at a certain point, you diverged off of AA. Episode 13 that you have is incredibly powerful to me. And even though I remain part of AA, there was a lot I could relate to. And you talk in that episode about the first five years and a lot of times being incredibly involved in even wanting to be one of those on the road speakers. So what happened? What made you change? 
in the beginning there was a lot of things that that I, I struggled with in AA, but I didn't have any other solution. I love the community. I love the support. when I started being asked to speak at different started off at meetings and then conferences, even though I was talking about a lot of things that just really didn't sit right with me, or that I just couldn't relate with people would come up to me after the meetings and tell me how much I inspired them. So I, I looked at it as even if what I was talking about something that I don't fully believed, it was still helping people, and that's how I justified it. And to me, going and becoming a circuit speaker like that was my ability to help inspire even more people. And like I said, even though I didn't believe in it and a lot of the stuff and and the fact that I was really struggling, you know, I stayed sober, but man, my anxiety just kept getting worse. And worse and worse the longer that I stayed sober 
and was in Alcoholics Anonymous. But I just I just wanted to help people. And I 
Mm 
figured, 
hmm. 
like, if I'm helping them, like, does and that's what I tell myself, if I'm helping them, doesn't matter if I believe it or not, like the ends to me, like justify the means, you know? 
What were some of the things that you had problems with? 
a lot of AA felt really like fear based recovery and a lot of scare tactics, you know, and then what seemed to be a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies. So, you know, you go in there, you're told if you don't work the steps, you're going to relapse. You don't go to meetings, you're going to relapse. If you leave a you're going to drink. And if you drink, you're going to die, you know, And so there's so much and it's really the belief system that is talked to a lot about meetings. And and I want to pause for a second and me and you talk 
Mm 
for 
hmm. 
we start recording like there is often a stark difference between what's taught in the book and what's generally believed by the fellowship. 
Very much so. 
So you listen to the nine step promises. They're like it says you get to this point like you're not even going to need to worry about alcohol anymore. You go in a meeting and you tell people like, I haven't even thought about drinking for 30 days, and they're like, Oh, danger zone. So as you get to uncomfortable, man, alcohol is outside doing push ups in the bushes and it's getting stronger every day. You don't you think you got it And it's going to you know, the second you let your guard down, man, you're going to end up drinking. And it was just really that feeling that you always had to be super hyper vigilant about drinking. And I just realized, like my whole life had become like it went from obsessing about drinking to obsessing about not drinking, but 
Yeah. 
but like the focus on alcohol and the obsession on alcohol was still there, you know? And so it was and so that was part of it, that this has to come first. And I and I do believe that, like, your recovery needs to be a priority. But that kind of got translated to Alcoholics Anonymous needs to come first. And so there's a lot of direction, like around going to 90 meetings at 90 days. And so I'm telling guys I'm sponsoring that they need to be doing this, you know, and like that. You got to put meetings first. You got to put meetings first. And like, these guys were guys that never showed up to their family dinners because they're at the bar and now they're still not showing up to family dinners because I'm telling them they have to go to a meeting instead. And I'm like, like, are they becoming a better father this way? Yeah. They're not drunk, but they're still not present, you 
Right. 
know? And they're you're putting something ahead of, like, rebuilding those relationships. And it seemed more important to like, to rebuild those relationships. And yeah, you should put recovery first. Like if you're going and hanging out with their drinking buddies. And every time you do that, you end up drinking. Well, yeah, you need to maybe you need to look at that and and prioritize staying sober over catching up with their old drinking buddies. But so what ended up happening is like that hyper vigilance that always need to be alert like that just triggered the fight or flight response in me too. And extreme that like my anxiety was just off the charts like I was I was diagnosed with borderline agoraphobia. Yeah. Which is the irrational fear of going outside. 
Mm hmm. 
I was given I was given anti-anxiety medication just so I could function in society. And it just it kept getting worse and worse. And when I tried to talk to people about it, like the only solution they could provide me, they're like, It works if you work it. And I look back and I'm like, Do you know anybody? Do you know? I'm like, Name one person, you know, in Alcoholics Anonymous that works their program harder than I do. I'm like, I'm I've been in search of a hell of a service commitment for five years straight. I go to 4 to 5 meetings a week. I have a book study in my house. You know, I'm like, I'm in service at the district level. I'm in service at the girls level. I never say no to Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, And I'm like, I've worked this program and I was and I start I'm like, maybe this just is it for me? Maybe like and with that, they're like, that's the alcohol. Talking about your alcoholism, talking like, that's going to get you out of this program and you're going to end up going off and drinking. And that's just what I was always told.And  I'm like, now, like you got five years sober. I'm like, that's not a gauge for good recovery. Yeah, 
Absolutely. 
I'm 
I agree. 
I've never felt like I'm getting to the point where, like, my depression is getting to the point where I'm starting to ask myself, is is a life worth living? You know? And like, I'm doing that sober. So, you know, we talk about the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. And they're telling me you need to walk the steps again. I'm like, I've worked on three times, you know, with multiple sponsors, you know, And I'm like, why should I try to do something again that doesn't seem to be working for me? But on the opposite side of that five years pounded in my head that if I leave AA, I'm going to drink. And I truly believe that. So like it was, it was a really tough spot. I'm like, I don't feel like this is the right thing for me, but I feel like outside the doors someone's waiting to offer. 
I. 
Yeah. So I'm like, I'm too scared to leave. 
I knew a lot of people like that. And this is where I talk to a lot of people who are not part of AA and it is almost unanimous that it boils down to the fellowship or specific people in the program that leave a bad taste in their mouth. And I never treat people that way purposely. I might weave in some steps or some principles. I know from the big book. Have you tried this? Have you tried that? And I'll talk to them and then say, you know, you just kind of talk through step four. If you didn't realize that that you were talking about, you know, I guess it's sort of step five, But step four of you're telling me some of the things that were your defects realize you you actually did some step work there. You talked about, you know, I've decided I don't want to be this person anymore. You're talking about steps six and seven. That is some good stuff. I got very lucky because I found a crew. John, who is in this program regularly,is  my grand sponsor. Steve, who is on this program regularly, is part of a crew that I hooked up with early on, and there were sort of like two groups in the groups I went to. There was the old timer group who were like one of those dolls that you pull the ripcord on the back and they'd let go and they'd say, you know, Hey, how you doing? Live and let live one day at a time. And they would just be one slogan after another. And at a certain point I got so goddamned sick of the slogans. And I remember being cornered by somebody being when I was new and them saying, Oh, are you doing your 90, 90? And I'm like, No, I can't. Oh, you're going to start drinking. And I got really pissed off at this guy because I'm like, I'm going to like four or five meetings a week. I have a newborn at home. I have a two year old and I have a kindergartener and I have a wife who's not particularly happy. I'm going to these meetings and you are making time for this. But I was also prioritizing if there was something family related, I was going to choose the family over the meetings and then I'd find another way. And if I had a question, I would talk to either my sponsor or I would talk to John or some of those other people to say, Here's what's going on. What do you think? And John has always been good at this. He would always say Family first. We had two Joe and Charlie. There were some things going on with the family one night and with Joe and Charlie. It's you do not miss it. 
Yeah. 
So I reached out to him. I got this family issue going on. My son's bus was in a was in an accident. He's fine, but this kind of blew up the day. And you just said family first. Don't come. And I have learned from that. And what I'm also hearing here is I am not a fan of one size fits all. I manage people for a living. And so I have kind of learn to reach the person where they are, meet them where they are. 
Yeah, 
And I think that's that's something in AA, in the fellowship, we don't do enough of reach the person where they are. I was sort of I kind of got this early on and I was ready to move. And there are people when I've asked, they say, you're fine you have a year sober. That guy over there has got 22 years, doesn't have your sobriety. It's not about the number of years. It's about what you're doing. And wish for. You would have been, you know, if you were like miserable at five years, it would have been let's come, come talk. Talk to me about what's going on here. 
yeah, 
Instead of the Chatty Cathy doll of Ripcord of Do the steps 90 and 
91 day at a time. 
The think, think, think. What are those? Those. Those types of things. When I hear the reiteration of like the broken record drives me insane. And I just a certain point tuned out. I don't want 
yeah, 
to hear it. One of the things that I think in listening to you that really stood out was the whole I got to live the One Day at a Time thing, which 
yeah, 
I think is really important early on, but I'm nine years sober. I don't think one day at a time anymore 
yeah, 
because I'm not thinking about drinking. 
I did have. And I'll step back like my last sponsor I had in California because I ended up moving back to Phoenix. But the last 
He sounded 
sponsor 
amazing, 
I had 
by the way. 
got. Yeah, the last sponsor I had in California, he, we did sit and talk about it, but he did not have the capacity to believe that there might be a might not be for everybody. And so like any time I would mention, other possible solutions are going out and exploring other solutions like he was. And I'm not and I'm not putting them down. He was very 
Mm hmm. 
well-meaning, very loving, very supportive of me, but he in his heart thought it was the only solution. So he was fearful for me. And so, like the advice of like, if you're going to leave, you're going to drink like it was in good conscience. It was he was afraid that that's true. He, in his heart believed that's truly was going to happen. And when I talk to him now and I haven't been to a meeting in probably five years, like he's baffled that I'm still sober and that I'm doing so much better. Like, it's almost like he's like, doesn't believe it. And so and and I think like you said, so much of it, the believe, the one size fits all was something I really struggled with. And you got to take in the context like and you talk about the four steps, so you're working through your resentments. And when the book was written, like, you got to look at the 100 guys that were helped putting it together and you look at like the resentment Sybil was working through and it was his boss and his wife 
Mm hmm. 
and his coworker that has a crush on his wife, like he was working through those resentments. And so, like one of the parts of it is, is like, find your part in it and you got to look in like 70. It's estimated that 75% of people with addiction problems had severe childhood trauma. And so when you're working with someone that has a childhood trauma and you're trying to apply the things that Bill Wilson did to try to work through problems with his boss, the childhood trauma, like that's not effective and it's more traumatizing to try to tell someone who maybe was sexually abused to go find your part in it. And I would see that. And I think that that's healing from those things is the most important thing I've found for recovery and for my recovery was that and most sponsors are not qualified to walk through people. You need a trauma specialized someone 
Absolutely. 
to have specialization in trauma, and that's good lobbying. And as well-meaning as they are, like I was instructed to find my part in and some things that happened as a kid. And I'm like, Man, I was a kid. I don't have a part in it. And they're like, Well, you're never going to be able to get over this resentment unless you can find your part in it. And I'm like, Like what? Like how? You know, until it actually like it retraumatized it. And so I think a lot of people just an elasticity and an inability to not think, you know what, maybe this set of instructions doesn't apply. And when you tell someone that they're different, they're like, that's a bad thing. You know, They're like, well, everybody thinks they're different, you know? And so it's like, no, some people's cases are different and maybe 
these steps are good for a lot of people, but maybe there's parts in the steps that apply to the circumstances of this person and what they've been through. Maybe it isn't good for them. And and when I would take on that belief, you know, a lot of times I'd be criticized like, I'm not you're not taking the guys. Do you know, I'm telling a guy like, I'm like, we're not even going to cover all of this stuff that you out there as a kid like you need to go to a therapist and talk to 
Yeah. 
them about it. And, you know, and I'd love to talk to you about it, but any time you need to come to me, but like, I'm not qualified to walk you through the necessary steps to heal you from some of this massive trauma you've been through as a child, 
There are multiple ways. I'm a firm believer that the steps can handle certain things about addiction. For some people, it's more than others. For me, I also had to go to therapy, and I had to go to a therapist who was a 12 step therapist. So she. She was a therapist, but she was also took from the from the angle of of the steps. 
yeah, 
That was important for me. For other people, it's they have to go to church. There's a religious aspect that 
Yep, 
I struggle with. There are now podcast patron groups, online groups that you can pay for that could be a replacement or in addition to a 12 step group that might help you. I've done quite a bit of reading on the writing of 
the AA book and somebody who believed that you had to build on what was written was Bill Wilson. He was horrified that the book itself got put into concrete because that was never 
yeah, 
his his thought process and always the greatest ideas that we've had. Look, Steve Jobs did not invent the smartphone. He brought it along from where it is. Every idea is built on something else. And when you stop building on, those ideas are where you run into problems. It says in the book the Herbert Spencer, quote, Contempt before investigation. Well, in some ways, if you said, oh, we can never change this, and it has to be just like this for everybody, that's a bit of contempt and contempt. So with an online world, I like that there are other ways that are pushing 12 step programs. We'll see. We'll see if they break or if there's open mindedness. My hope is open mindedness to make this better because 
yeah. 
it's the default setting for most people. 
And that's what I tell people now. I'm like, find what works for you. And I'm not 
Yes, 
anti Alcoholics Anonymous. Like, it just I found that it wasn't what worked for me. And when I went and started doing other things, like I got better, you know, I'm no longer I was able to get off all the medication. I was able to, you know, I got better. But I understand, like, I have a guy that I used to sponsor that still calls me regularly. And when he's struggling with something, I'm pulling him back to the big book because it doesn't matter that that's not my solution. That's his solution. You know, I'm not I'm not religious, but like when my mom is going through something like I dust off that part of my brain that still remembers a lot of the stuff from Bible study when I was a kid. And I and I and I redirect my mom to the Bible, you know, and like, she's looking for a therapist right now, and she's like, What do you think's important for colleges to look at for a therapist? I'm like, You need to find a Christian therapist. And she's like, But you're not Christian. I'm like, We're not taking my therapist. We're picking yours. Like, 
right. 
you need to find someone just like, you know, like if I knew someone who is still heavily involved in AA and they wanted to go to therapy, I would suggest exactly 
Okay. 
what you did. Go find one that believes that the either end 12 step recovery or who believes in 12 step recovery because they need to be giving you advice that's in line with your solution, not their solution. 
Tuned to what's going to work for you. 
Yeah. 
And you're also bringing something up. I think the risk of when people decide to stop going to meetings and a lot of those people go out and drink is not because they've stopped going to meetings, they've stopped doing work that will keep them sober. The 
Yeah, 
goal of a 12 step program or anything else to achieve sobriety is not to continue going to meetings. It's the idea that you're not going to drink and you're going to have a fulfilled life. 
Whatever you do, if you reach to that point of I don't need to drink and I'm not a miserable bastard,then  whatever you're doing is right. And 
yeah, 
the big book says, We don't have a monopoly on this. 
yeah, 
And anything I'm critical about AA about is done from love of I want this to be the best program because for most people, be it the courts or whatever, it's the default setting of that's the place you should go because it's tried and true. 
yeah, 
And if you find an alternative, whatever it and you're happy and healthy and you're not thinking about a drink, then you're doing it right as well. 
yeah. 
And I don't feel like you really walked and said, I'm not going to do anything. Now you walked 
No, 
away and said, I'm on a journey and I've got to figure this out for myself because I want to be happy. I think that's what's different about you. 
yeah. And I agree that a lot of people leave AA one. I think you have the group of people who already decided they're going to drink. So like stopping 
Yep. 
going to meetings just is the last step because why go to meetings and drink, you know, and then I think you have a lot of people that leave with the resentment. And so when 
Yes. 
you leave with the resentment that that's just boiling over and eventually, if you haven't learned how to deal with emotions like resentments and you've always treated it by drinking, then of course you're going to drink. And so you're right. When I left, it was it was completely different. It was I moved to Arizona. 
And
There was a guy who I knew that lived here. I met him when he spoke at a big anniversary meeting up in Sacramento. He was a surrogate speaker. I absolutely loved this guy like he was an old timer, like, but mostly old timers that I knew were grumpy. And this guy always had a smile on his face. He was like the only old timer that I would hear say, like, If you want what I want, you got to do what I want to do. And he's the only one I looked at and said, Yes, I actually want what this guy wants. So when I came to Phoenix, I'm like, and I was still struggling. I'm like, I don't know if like, you're not staying, am I not doing it right? And I'm like, if anybody could like, help me, like, work the steps the right way. Well, it's kind of I think and I'm like, it's this guy. So like, I started going, I didn't have his number, but I remembered, Hey, he said he lived in Gilbert, and I was like, I'm going to go hit every single meeting in Gilbert Morning, noon and night til I find this guy's home group. The funny thing is, the guy was like 80. So I started hitting all the morning meetings. I didn't know his whole group was like a 10 p.m. meeting because I thought he would be asleep by then. 
yeah. 
So I finally found him and I started running around with them and going to all the meetings, met them, and he would hear me talk in meetings and he's like, Man, you got a great message. He's like, I want you to start coming to some of the circuit stops with me and like, that was still my dream. Like, I still wanted to inspire people. And I was at first really excited. I'm like, It's happening. And then like, I got pit in my stomach because I knew I was living a lie and I'm like, I'm going to be living this lie on even a bigger stage. So I sat down and I and I talked to him and I said, Hey, look, I and I told him everything. I'm like, you know, I just just doesn't feel right to me. I think that there's another path, me and, you know, and he went and he broke out his big book and I'm like, here it comes again, you 
And
know, coming baffling, powerful as expected that and the part that you mentioned is what he went to. And he said, you know, and to quote it, it says if he thinks he could do the job in some other way or prefer some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience, we do not have the monopoly on God. We merely have an approach that works for us. And it closes the big book. He looks at me and he says, Jim, I've seen a lot of other people in your situation, and I've seen a lot of them even go on to be great circuit speakers. And I'm like, What happened to him? And he's like, They all either got drunk or they killed themselves sober. He's like, Go follow your heart. And he's like, You're going to be just fine. And like, at that point, like I had it. In retrospect, I don't think I made an actual decision for myself in like five years sober without running it by my sponsor. So, like, I was afraid still to make my own decisions. And I needed someone I loved and respected. And that was loved and respected in Alcoholics Anonymous to give me permission to leave, y know? And that's exactly what I what I did, you know, And and I've been blazing my own path ever since, you know. And that was just such one of the greatest gifts that anybody's ever given me, because that's what I needed. I don't know. I don't think I could have left on my own because I didn't trust my own my own decision making at that point. And there was that part of me that believed that if I left it like me wanting to leave was the alcohol being cunning, 
it's
baffling and powerful. And if I left, I was going to drink because that's what I've been being told for five years straight. And I and I believed it. 
I look at this as it's not as black and white as you leaving AA. I look what you're telling me as you had to go on your own journey and there is no destination in sobriety. It's like 
No. 
for me, I struggle with the God thing and I accept that I'm on a spiritual journey that I will never finish. The journey is the success you're just on a different journey and you have to find out some things for yourself. And if you're in a place where you're happy now and you can find ways to give wisdom to somebody else, that's a good thing. 
Yeah, 
I don't look at that as a bad thing. And I don't I don't look at it as just because you're not going to AA meetings doesn't mean you turn your back. It's you're doing something different right now. We're not locked into anything. You may never go to an AA meeting again, 
I've been No. One. Yeah, I've been no one since, since I had that day with that sponsor. And it's because I had a friend that was in town and he's like, hey, dude, I need a meeting. Will you go with me? And I'm like, Absolutely. You know, like, you know, a friend needed help. And like I said, that's his solution. So, yeah, absolutely. Let's go, let's go. Had a meeting, if that's what you need. 
I'm just inspired by. I think that's the thing that's different that you've got to. I mean, we all have a chance. Nothing is nothing is for sure. You never know. But I think the thing with you is you're blazing your own path, and whatever it is, you have to find your own journey. That was important for you. And I hear you on the podcast talking about stuff where I hear echoes of the stuff that I do. That's part of AA yet 
Yeah, 
you've made at your own. Tell me a little bit about the podcast. What made you decide, you know what, I'm going to do this, this horrible hard work that really is doing a podcast because after the first two episodes it's work to do this well. 
it is. It's, yeah. And I've been doing it for over six months now, you know, and so I what happened, you know once I left AA like I'm, I really missed helping people and it seemed like people just randomly started coming out of the woodwork, like I would meet someone at the grocery store, you know, and it would be someone who says, y know, I went to meetings for a long time and I just really struggled with either the God thing or this thing or this thing. And they didn't know like there was other ways to get sober, you know? So I'd start working with people and, you know, and I'd I'd say this, is what I'm learning. And I just kind of teaching people as I went along. And there was more and more people that just started showing up in my life and it just ended up being a little too much for me to try to help everybody one on one. And I had multiple people say, you know, you just you need to either write this all down or you need to just start talking about it. And I had after about the 15th or 20th person suggested doing a podcast, I decided to start now. I decided to start probably a year before it actually started because there is about a a year of working through all the fear. I did my podcast for three months without telling anybody except a few family members or friends. Then I started letting them tell other people like I was still really nervous about doing it and getting myself out there. 
But it's been an amazing journey. I just recently decided, okay, I'm at six months. I decided, okay, I'm all in. I'm really enjoying 
Yeah, 
doing that. I'm helping people. So I'm like, Now I'm going to start putting stuff on social media, you know, I'm going to start actually promoting it. I do short videos on social media, which is even more work, you know? But like I get 
it 
so 
is. 
many people just reaching out to me, You know, I had a young kid reach out to me today, you know, and I messaged him back and forth and he was he's like he's like, you don't understand, like, how grateful I am for what you're doing. And I'm like, and I'm like, I hadn't even met this kid. And I'm like, And I'm having a positive impact on his life. And I just that means so much to me that I'm able to help people that that I don't even know, you know, yet. A so it's really that and it's really the one thing I miss the most about AA, too, is the community aspect, 
Mm 
you 
hmm. 
know? And so what I found through podcasting is 
becoming a part like the recovery podcast community, 
Yes, 
like, you know, and like I guested on another show called Through the Glass, you know, and they do a monday just we all hop on a call and and chat for however long you know, it may run a couple of hours and just being able to do that and being part of the community again, I really enjoyed that. And just the podcast community as a whole, like 
It's awesome. 
what most people are doing. I went to a podcast conference in Vegas a couple of months ago and when I was there, the one thing the one thing I noticed in common about everything is it's a lot of people who feel their voices are not heard that have now gotten a platform to be able to speak out, you know, And it's and it's just and it's really good. It's a lot of and it's a lot of people talking about things that we have been as a society like you don't talk about that. You stuff it down, you know. So a lot of things that have been kind of that shame thing, it's like people are shining lights on it, whether it's mental health, whether it's recovery, whether it being an alcoholic or being an addict, or are any of that like what you shine a light on shame, something you hidden for so long, like you're you're shameless. It scurries just like cockroaches when 
Oh, yeah. 
you flip the light on, you know. And so I just it's a beautiful community and I've loved doing it, you know, So I don't I have no plans on stopping. 
now 
It's a 
I 
lot 
don't 
of work. 
grind 
I work 
through it. 
full time. Yeah, I work full time. I do this in the evenings, you know, and it's 
Me too. 
and it's it's totally worth it, you know? Totally worth it for me. I've grown a ton, but the fact that now that I have people reaching out to me and saying that I'm I'm having positive impacts on their life like that's just a humongous bonus. 
That for me, when I'm grumpy and I'm. I look at my numbers and say I'm not where I would want to be, and I'm comparing against others. That's when I get an email from somebody or an Instagram message where they say, Hey, I'm a janitor at night and you are part of what helps me recover as I'm cleaning that I'm dialed in listening to you, I go, I've been an ass. I need to reframe because it's about helping people. 
Yes, 
So if you're if you got angry at this conversation, that's okay, because we should have conversations that challenge you, not reinforce everything you believe. But either way, if you want to email me, Matt at Sober Friends podcast, you liked what you talked about. You thought we were fair to AA, you thought we were bashing AA. I'll take it. I'm a big boy. I'm about having conversation here. What I'd like you to do is give Tim a shot. His podcast is the Sober and Happy podcast. You can find it anywhere. What's your Instagram handle? 
it's I am sober and happy. 
Excell. Follow him there too. 
Yeah. Instagram, Facebook, both same content, both of them. So whichever your preferred platform is. 
Awesome. All right, Tim. Thanks for doing the show with me tonight. It's been great to hear your story. 
Thank you so much, Matt, for this conversation. And like you said, these are the type of conversations we should have. And 
Absolutely. 
I will say one. One thing I was surprised with is when I started posting content, I expected a whole bunch of backlash 
Me 
and 
too. 
everybody that's disagreed with me in the comments section, it's always turned into a positive conversation. So it's just the beauty 
Yea, 
of when people are willing to have conversations about stuff and agree to disagree. That's something that's been lost in in today. 
I 
So 
agree. 
yeah, so thank you for having this conversation. Thank you for inviting me on. It's been an absolute pleasure. 
Well, it's been my pleasure. We'll see you all next week by everybody