Before we went on the air, Steve, we were talking a little bit about spirituality, self-knowledge, and what I thought was a really excellent Monday night big book meeting last night. We had a few we have we have some people in the meeting who haven't been regulars in the past, but have shown up and found that the meeting has turned over a bit. And we have some people have been around, but not not in our meeting.
Right?
And one of the guys talked a lot about first how I heard it was didn't have a belief in God, now considers himself an atheist, not an atheist, an agnostic, but has strong spirituality, and it really resonated. He apologized for rambling. It didn't feel like a ramble to me.
No.
It was good to hear a different perspective and it was based on the topic. There is a solution. We talked a lot about there's a self-knowledge piece that, you know, you're an alcoholic, and then there's that piece of. But if you're going to get sober, you have to find a higher power. And there was sort of the introduction to that. Now, before I have scared all of you and you've gone on to something else and you're listening to
another podcast. This is not a God in religious conversation, but I think this conversation around spirituality as something that goes hand in hand with that self-knowledge piece is important to talk about. And I think this is one that's just an evergreen, and we can recycle this topic over and over and over again because it's such a hot topic. curious your initial thoughts on what makes us have to have the spirituality component to a 12 step program. Why can't I just do this with
self-knowledge? And then where are the misconceptions there? Yeah. It's good to be here with you, Matt. Yeah, I, too, remember this person, Bruce, for calling by his name, Bruce Sharon. And saying he was rambling and thinking the same thing as like, I didn't find that to be much Now, of I a ramble, was great. and it was a nice added change to that meeting because, yeah, a lot of these means you get the same people come in and you hear the same things and yeah, we all only have so many takes on
everything. So you know, if you stay at a meeting long enough, you start hearing the same takes over and over again and sometimes you'll hear something different. But it was nice to hear something very different. So yeah, what I heard Bruce say was that same thing. He came in when he first got here. He was an atheist. That's what we, you know, we talked about. And and then he now finds himself agnostic. And I forget who we were talking about, and I can't remember. We had a guest on a
female guest some time ago. And when we talked about I think I asked her the question about her spirituality and her understanding, and she said she prays to the universe. Do you remember that? Does that ring a bell to you at all? It doesn't Okay. And it did with me because it probably did that with me because of I think I said I
asked a question. And that's part of because of the journey that I'm going through, which I mentioned here before, is I've landed on a spot that is, agnostic as best agnostic at best, or maybe even atheist. I'm not sure I'm sort of still working through that. and so it was good to hear Bruce talk
about it. Bruce and I are riding together to that meeting, and so the beautiful thing about this is that when you ride to another person to an AA meeting or any type of recovery meeting, you sort of we have what we call the meeting before the meeting and the meeting after the meeting.
so we had this meeting, there was three people in the car and after we dropped off the other person, Bruce and I had a chance and we we had a nice conversation and it was one of those nice moments where I pulled up to dropped him off, and we were still able to talk about that. And Bruce told me at that point is that he talked about it and he one of the things he said was I settled on a point that my higher power, that I know there's a higher power and I know it's not me and
I. That's it. And that's what he told me. Li it's not me. I don't know what it is. I don't know. You know, I don't understand the I don't call it a God thing. But he told me Park there talking before he got out of the car that I sort of pray, throw my prayers out to universe. And that's what brought me back to one of our guests a while back. And I can't remember who it was
myself. I'll have to go back and dig through some of the episodes when you start going like at 120, 121, Yeah, it becomes really hard to remember but we only had so many feme. I know. I don't expect you to. I that was wondering if you knew, but we've only had a handful of female guests on, right? So right, it wouldn't be hard to find it listen to it through. yeah. So anyway, that's what I got out of it. And that's sort of where I'm at, right? And we talked about
it. I've talked about it on this podcast, I've talked about it before, is that when I first came into this program, first time I came through the program was 1995. I didn't stick around for a long time active in the program, and I truly thought self-knowledge was okay. I did at that point I've said it before, and I sometimes I'll tell it when I speak, depending on how I how my how, you know,
how my talk goes. But I thought once I stopped drinking way back then, I had young children at home and I truly thought and I mean this honestly, I wasn't lying to myself. I just didn't know better at the time. I truly thought the best thing for me to do was to go home and be a husband, a father to my two young children, and become a part of that family, which I wasn't part of when I was
drinking right there. You know, that whole time that family was built from that from from the 1990, which is when my son was born until I came in in 1995. I wasn't fully part of that family. And I really thought once I got clean and sober a little bit, three, four years into the program, okay, it's time for me to go out and do something else, you know? But little did I know that self-knowledge would not keep me sober, and it didn't. yeah, it didn't keep me
sober either. I knew there was a problem before I came into recovery, and I knew there were things that I needed to do even after I decided I wasn't going to drink. There was this period of time when I decided I'm not going to drink anymore, but I'm not going to meetings and I'm kind of doing it on my own. And it just felt like my body was on fire all the time. I'd go into a restaurant and I was white
knuckling it. I wasn't going to drink, but it just felt very different and an off from what I'm used to in Bill's view of spirituality. If we go back to what he intended, he did have an intent around your higher power is the Christian God. It's Jesus Christ. It's the Christian, not only the Christian God, the Protestant Christian God, that very specifically the the white Anglo-Saxon Christian God
Right.
for men.
Yeah.
This is very
Yeah,
specific. It has liberalized over time.
yeah,
Now, you could view this as that's a higher power at work, getting this off of what Bill's original intent was. And also the help he had from people like Hank who didn't want to hear it. So expanding out to you choose your conception and it can be something other than Jesus Christ. It can be something of your view. And it just was thinking when I when I'm thinking about you and Bruce and the other guy in the car, the other guy in the car has a strong faith,
yeah.
goes to church all the time. And I think about the other guy in the car who probably doesn't overthink this.
No.
There are things he over thinks this part. He just accepts. And I think about you. Me and Bruce are probably similar in the fact that we're just too cerebral. yeah. That's how I feel. I can think this through in terms of the universe and metaphysics and astrology, and I talk myself out of yeah, it that's a great observation because you're absolutely right. That third person in the car does not overthink that. It's
what he was brought up on. He stepped away from it and now he's back to it and he's comfortable and it's hot and it works for him. And I'm happy that it works for him. he's all in with it, right? He's all in with it. And it's really good. Absolutely. He does not overthink it. That's where he's at. He's not trying to figure it out like you may be me like Bruce, although I don't think Bruce is working hard to figure it out. I think Bruce is okay where he's at, But there is no
question. But listen here. You know, you brought up a couple of things. You know, the whole thing, like basically we're talking about step two, right? We're talking about step two right? in this program. And that's what there is a solution about. All right. The solution is finding a power greater than yourself. And step two, for those who may not be familiar with it says came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore and could restore me to sanity. All right, so that's it.
That's not the step, by the way, where you have to embrace that higher power. It's just saying came to believe it, saying right, I'm right. I'm willing to think about this one. And step one I look at is that's the self-knowledge step. And the thing Bruce said, right. And he talked about when he came in here that he's he's struggled a bit with step two, which is what we would like said what we were talking about. And his point is there's a higher power
out there. This is the understanding and he knows it's not him. That's that. That's how simple it is for him. I know it's not me. For me, it's a little bit more complicated. And I you know, so therefore I have to do a little bit more work on it because I did have a faith, right, For a long time that was part of my life. And it's it doesn't fit me anymore. And that's a strange place. I'll tell you right now. It's a strange place to be in for me.
So, you know, it's always you know, I've said it, Joe and Charlie say it all the time. It's a journey. We're on a journey. We're on a faith journey. We're on a spirituality journey. So I'm I accept that fact that I'm on a journey. And therefore, I feel a little bit uncomfortable right now out of sorts, but not afraid. Not like I'm not worried about anything.I'm not like, Oh my God, I got to figure this out before something happens to me. Nothing like that.
I don't feel a pressure on it. I feel like this is part of my journey and where I'm at right now is just a different place than where I was the last year or two years ago. And it's it's different, but it's the same meaning that it's just a part of my journey. So This is part perfectionism for me, yeah, that if I don't have it figured out, like the people in the rooms that I admire who have great sobriety, then I must be doing it wrong. yeah, of course.
And I think about what Jim has said when he says it's the journey it's seeking. Right? Don't worry about finding, worry about the seeking. And if you're seeking, then you're doing it right. John would be a great person to have here tonight because John has a strong belief. His belief is the spirit of the earth.
Mm
He
hmm.
has the spirituality of the Native Americans,
Right,
and that's he grew up Catholic and that's what he prays to. He prays every night with his wife and he prays to the spirit of the earth.
Right.
And that is he's he's very good with that.
Yeah.
I can see that he lives it. He does. And he's comfortable with it. And like I said, it's where he's, you know, it's where he's ended up in his life. He's comfortable. He's an outdoors guy, and that sort of fits his life. I think that's what happened to me, sort of fits where he's at. of the things that I said last night in my meeting after the meeting, it was that one of the things I don't like is I don't like hypocrites Yeah. and maybe I don't know if this
is a perfectionism, right? So it's like, so what's happened to me recently is that okay, so I fall on this. I fall at this place where, okay, I believe and I truly do believe that there is no God. Certainly there is no God like the God I grew up with that God in heaven, all of that stuff, all of that religious God is something I do not believe in anymore. So when I'm uncomfortable and this is what I said last night, so what would happen to me is I got into a bad
spot. I, I would even when I was praying, I wouldn't pray for anything to happen. I would pray to be relieved that the feelings I had, I would like if I was feeling clients or down or or troubled, I would pray and like relieve me of these feelings, not solve this problem for me. So now it's like, what do I do when I feel like that? That's my that's my dilemma right now. What do I do? And that's where Bruce said he prays and he said he doesn't pray all that often, but when he does pray, praise
the universe. And that sort of struck me like somebody else came on the spot podcast and they said, Oh, I pray to the universe, you know, and I Mike, maybe that's what I need to do, right? Maybe I need to pray to the universe. and then we were talking a little bit about I saw this clip on somewhere out there on social media was Carl Sagan from years ago. And he talked about, he talked about the earth and the people on the earth being a blip that, you know, and he goes, and we circled this in
the way he put it. This insignificant star in this insignificant galaxy, which is one of a billion stars within this galaxy. And this galaxy is probably one of a billion galaxies. And his point was he was talking about how we if we think we could be the center of all of this whole universe, i kind of the hubris, the ego of, you know, of of humans like, oh, yeah, we're the center of all this, you know? And again, it
brings me in that thing. It's like, yeah, maybe I should be praying to the universe, whatever is out there, you know? There's something that really hits me and connects with me about you're not the higher power, because I don't know if this is a conscious thing, but I do want to be the higher power. I get into trouble when I really believe that I have to be responsible for doing it or whatever it is, be it at work or at home that I have to be the one driving it Mm.
or it won't get done. And then I start to overthink, Well, if I'm relying on a higher power, am I am I believing in the tooth fairy to help me get this done?
Right.
And therefore I'm just neglecting responsibility, putting in the hands of a higher power? That's where overthink it. That it doesn't have to be exactly like that. No, I'm not handing off it. I'm not delegating a task. I'm asking a higher power to give me that strength. And I will tell you this. There are times that I feel it. And yet
Yeah.
I'm willing to say, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about this or that. And yet I can't deny that I feel it sometimes. And that's when I open my mind in terms of what if a higher power is not, as you read in the Bible or as you've seen in church, I took but I had to take a year, I think a year of religion. I took two in college because I like taking it. And I did a Bible construction class. And what we went over with a Christian brother was
this was created by man. It is sewn together from a bunch of different sources. And there are some things that will conflict with the other within pages
Mm.
because it's not necessarily one writer. We did a lot of gospel construction of Matthew, Mark Luke being very similar and then John being in its own universe. And keep in mind there were written John like 20 years after Jesus died. The other 170 years. So these are stories that were handed down for actually a couple of generations before they actually were written down.
right.
So from that, we have the fallibility of man. Now, if you're a big Bible thumper, you probably think I'm a heretic, but this is what I learned. This is what I believe to be true. So if you look from that point of view, if it doesn't fit what you have seen in a book, that's okay. I think a lot of people feel as though, well, if I believe in something different, well, that's not okay. I won't fit in.
Yeah. Well, you said something that I guess it's, it's my struggle and, you know, I'm sort of literally working through this live as we talk, right? As we talk, you say something like, Huh, you said that you would pray for relief or for whatever it was, and it worked. And you know something? I've had that same experience that I would pray for relief of those feelings, relief of that pressure just to whatever it was. I was praying for, never praying for something to get something.
and it worked. I would feel better. And now I'm saying, okay, I'm going to cast that aside, which is why I think I'm struggling with that somewhat. What's that about? What do you mean? Like, I have the same thing, and you said you have prayed, you have felt something, and yet it doesn't stick. What's that about? think I think it's about. It's about what you just said. It's about a me no longer believing something that I was brought up to believe for the better part
of my whole life. I'm talking about for 50, 50 plus years, right? I am brought up to believe in the God of the Christian Bible. And then like you, right. Gone through, you went to did it a college. I did it on my own by reading other books, right where I read books and I read books. Same thing by Episcopal bishops and stuff, who went through the whole same thing. The deacons, production of the Bible, the whole thing, and said the same thing. First of all, it's not written by one
author. It not even written by the same voice like it's there's no one you know, it's a collection of books and stories that were put together. And again, we won't get the whole thing but translated over from an ancient language into Greek, into English. Right. And some of that problems is true translations. What happens in translations is there aren't words for words, right? Like there are certain one language doesn't have a word for some of
our English words. So anyway, but so my my struggle is that it worked for me, but yet I don't believe that anymore. And that is my struggle right there like that. That sums it up. And that's what I need to work through and figure out, okay, what do I do with that? If I no longer believe that that Christian God, the way I was taught to me exist, then that's my question. What do I do? And I don't have an answer to it. Like I said, it's something I'm still working through.
The ritual in services don't work for me anymore.
Yeah,
It feels like just no pun intended, steps. It just feels like something you go through the motions to get through. It's a task that you go to the gym and you lift weights in a certain order and then you leave. It's you do this task every single week to get through the certain parts. And I just struggle with how does that connect me to a higher power? Is this especially true if you're Catholic? If you're Catholic, that service never changes. The homily is different,
right.
but like even on Easter, like even a wedding in a wedding, the actual wedding part of a Catholic mass is a pretty short part.
hmm.
Do not get in the way of that communion being handed out, because that's still the most important part.
right.
And that's something that it's always bothered me. it is what it is. I struggle with that being brought up Catholic and then not being Catholic for most of my adult life. So therefore, not being welcome to go to a Catholic church and do what you say, like receive communion. So it was always a struggle for me. And then I just. I just made peace with that and I was okay with it. but you're right, There is a ritual there. And some of that ritual I actually liked. I'm not sure I like it so much and
there's a lot to it. This community, there's this whole thing and there's a hole for anybody who might be out there listening to this. You know, there's a whole deconstruction of faith community out there that you could find people who actually know what they're doing way smarter than I am, who who talk about this stuff on different social media. Instagram, obviously tick tock these days and things like that. So but there's a whole bunch of stuff out there for people who
are going through this. So I think there's a lot of people it seems like there's a whole community out there now who are sort of trying to figure out what to do with their their life after coming to a point where they no longer believe in the faith they were brought up in. I, I just to go back to this whole thing for people in recovery, I do need to know that I am not the biggest thing in this world. Right. That's the key, right? I need to know that for my ego to let me know that I am not the
most important thing around. oh, one of the things that you said there, Matt, and that's what I've been struggling with too, is that sometimes I feel like I just have too much to do and too much responsibility. And it's a conversation that I had with my wife, just a you know, just a few days ago last week some time. And I said sometimes sometimes I just get overwhelmed feeling that I get overwhelmed, you know,
last week. And I Joan, Charlie and I talked about it like I look up at my yard and my yards a mess Oh, that would have been a great point to put a microphone in front of you and you start. I could tell when you're f bombing oh, that you're yeah. really bothered about something. Oh, really? And but even I was out there working with with my butt, with my buddy today, and we're spreading some, some topsoil stuff and I'm going to
plant some stuff there. And he goes out pretty soon you're going to have the nicest lawn in the neighborhood. And I'm like, You know, something is not going to happen. And I said, You know why? Because I don't give a fuck about my lawn anymore. It's like, that's and that's the truth.
Like, I have to keep it up because there's a responsibility to my neighbors and stuff, but I'm no longer interested in that lawn that requires me to do all the work needed to keep it alive, which is water, fertilize and all that kind of stuff. And that's a whole nother thing. I want to go down that rabbit hole. But but sometimes I look at that stuff and I feel overwhelmed by it because I'm not willing to pay somebody to do that type of work because it's expensive
these days. And so it means I got a lot I got to put a lot of man hours into it. And luckily I do have someone who can help me out a little bit, takes a little bit of burden off, but it takes a lot. I mean, some days I just look at all the all the things I'm responsible in my household and outside of my household. And I get overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed with it. I And get that all the time. yeah, and but it's nice because when I typically when I do, I do
go to a meeting. I love the community that we are in the recovery community, the AA community for us that I could go to a meeting or I have people I could pick up the phone and call and I just did that this past weekend, you know, after my Friday night meeting, I had something that was bothering me I just went up to one of the guys who I talk to regularly and like, you have some time tomorrow. And he happened to be working and he's like, Yeah, I'm going to be driving, but you can
give me a call. I was hoping to do it face to face, but it didn't matter. we called. I gave him a call. We talked for about 25 minutes and I got some stuff off my chest. I knew he would be the person to talk to for me truthfully. Truth is, I came into the house. There was a couple of things I need to talk to my wife about. I talked about that you know something? I felt immediately felt better. And he texted me the next day and said, How you doing? And I'm like, Oh, I'm good. He goes, I don't
believe you. And I told him like, No. After that, I said, After this talk with you. I talked to my wife. We had a little conversation about some things that would bother me and I feel better. And that's the beauty of our community. That's the beauty of our fellowship, is that I know that I could pick up the phone, call another alcoholic, and who's going to no one is going to listen to me no matter what I say. Number two, he's probably going to understand it, you know, and understand what
I'm going through. Someone. There's somebody who I'm helping who also is sober, is alcohol free, who has been going through some stuff and it's been a joy to not get anything back in return
Mm.
than feeling better. This
Yeah,
person been going through a lot of stuff and it's an opportunity for me to listen and get out of myself. This goes back to the higher power because I look at the higher power in spirituality as a way of not being ego centric and to be humble, to be a servant. And when I'm helping somebody else and I'm really trying to help somebody and not get something out of it, I feel like I'm a servant.
Yeah,
Like I'm doing effort for somebody else, not looking to get it back. I've been trying to do that at work. I can go crazy at work and take on too much, but there are some shared tasks that we have, and then I'll go in and help my peers out a little bit. And I've actually told them the reason I've done a few of these callbacks is because there'll be times I'm out of the business and you'll have to help me and
right.
I want to feel better about that. So I'm taking on a little bit extra to kind of give me a little bit of insurance when I'm out it it's night to night to do those tasks. you know, there's people out there who say the way to do those tasks was not to tell anybody about them, but it, you know, it's nice to do them.
And I told my wife I was, I was bringing this fellow home who's helping me around the yard and we were driving up the street and there was one of these leaf bag, you know, these big 50 gallon leaf bags, whatever they are. And they had fallen off somebody's truck. And I was in the middle of the road and it was a busy road. And I just said, I'm going to pull over and drag that thing out of the road. Right. I just pull over. I was
in my work. I'd been digging dirt all day, so I was in the perfect clothes for I didn't care. And, you know, and it was just like I said, I didn't want to get anything out of it. I could just see the cars driving around it and it's like I just got I just bring it to the side of the curb, stuck it next to a sign where I knew I could go back in the in the road. And it's like, boom, done. I don't need anything else for it, you know? I like doing those things
too. I like I like being able to do tasks for people, to help other people out without thinking like, okay, what's in it for me? Because I spent my whole life thinking about what's in it for me. And I mean that honestly, it's like I was you know, there's a lot of people who would too would be appalled because they around people. I would look like a nice guy, right? Oh, look at this. He's doing this. He's doing that. He's doing. But I was always wondering, like, where was my
pay? They come in like, you know, I was always thinking that, like, what am I going to get? Even if it was just praise, right? Even right? if it was simple praise, like, oh, what a nice guy. Like, like that sometimes that was my pay off. Oh, what a nice guy you are, Steve, you know? Yeah. And it's like, you know. But anyway,
today I tried not to do that. I love the I love the analogy that you just mentioned about doing something without expecting anything back, you know, especially at work, especially for your co-workers or for the people who work for you. It's such a nice feeling to be able to do that just just a way to a nice way to live your life I have to balance that at work that I'm not enabling, right? that I can do all of those tasks, that I don't have time for my own work. So I'll go and
prioritize. I have a little bit of extra time. I'll do a little bit of this, especially if somebody is out of the business. If they're up, I can't be there. Somebody should do it. Okay, I'll handle that. And then if I don't have as much time, I'll look and say, These people are here today, Yeah, should be able to handle it. There are times I can help.
Times I don't. But I try to think through what are the things during the day I need to do to help somebody else that's important to me and that that does keep me grounded. It does make me yeah, feel better. you know, isn't that what we want? We want to we want to feel better about our lives. and we want, we want to be able to just, you know, I want to be able to put my head on the pillow knowing that I did a good, a good job today. Right. And Yeah,
I most nights I do. I mean, I still have nights where I go to bed and I haven't done as good of a job as I had hoped or I could have. And that's just that's just a human experience, right? I don't I don't beat myself up for that. It's just a human experience that some days I'm good and some days I struggle. And some days when I struggle, I take it out on other people. Still, I wish I didn't, but I do. it's, you know, it's
not as bad as it used to be. And, and I think everybody around me would agree with that statement, but I still, I still end up in that situation. And some of that is I could still fall into that, you know, egocentric, self-centeredness, selfish of just like you said, sometimes I can enable people by taking out a lot of tasks and then get pissed off when that those idiots and recognize like, that's well what happens right to me.
right. And when it's not recognized or or I asked for something that related to that. But I ask for something and then all of a sudden it's like, No, no, that's not possible. And I go, Well, what about what about, you know? anyway, I work on that. It's part of what I do. Some people find this stuff easy. I find that stuff challenging. I have to work on it little bit easier for me today than it was before I got sober and and found this program.
The thing that kicks me in the face and alerts me with any view of a higher power or something greater than me is when we get to that appendix two and we start talking about Herbert Spencer and that phrase contempt before investigation.
Mm.
And if I'm listening and I want to be open minded, that will stop me in my tracks. I hope it stops you in your tracks a little bit. If you're thinking about contempt instead of investigation, that before you're closed minded on something, maybe you should be thinking more open of what is possible, even if you don't believe what I believe. This is your turn to give some feedback. This is a hot topic. What do you think about spirituality? Higher power, God, whatever you want to
call it. None of it is right and none of it is wrong. It's whatever you believe is right for you. Get in on the conversation. You can reach us out on Instagram, aim at Sober Friends Pod. Email us at the website Sober Friends podcast. And I do have an ask for you. Can you go on Apple and write us a review? It shows other people what the podcast is about and it gives us feedback. It's nice to see. It's nice to see that you're out there and that we're
making a difference. Steve, thanks for sharing this topic with me tonight. Hey, Matt. Welcome. It's a pleasure to do. I'm happy to be here. And yeah, I look forward to doing it again. Yeah, well, I feel better tonight me too. and we'll see you all next week by everybody.