Steve, I'm going to tell you a little story about my weekend and we'll talk about emotions and recovery. There's a lot to unpack with the story, and I was really surprised at the emotion that I had with something this weekend. My girls, I might have talked about this
on the podcast. My two girls or a ten and nine on a weekly basis go to a farm and they ride horses and they get this whole horse experience there where part of their duty is to part of the experience is to do the chores, wash the horses, comb the horses, clean the stalls, get the food in, get the dung out, and then they they learn to ride and they do trotting and cantering and all this type of stuff with the horses. One of the horses there is is my middle daughter's favourite, Holden.
Holden is a smaller horse and Holden was 29 years old and was really the. It was the Jerry West of the farm. It's the logo for the farm. And Analise really loved this because Annalise has some pretty significant anxiety and Annalise always felt very safe with Holden. And Holden got Cushing's disease, which is horse diabetes. And we also found out that the horse had dementia. And like, my question for my wife was how do you know if a horse has dementia? And apparently it's easy to tell.
The horse doesn't react, he get spooked when it never would. It doesn't seem to recognise you. There are those things that are just way off and all these things were happening and there's medicines for Cushing's. But Holden wouldn't take it as medicine and Holden continued to lose weight when he brushed
Holden's hair. The hair was just falling right off and so the decision was made to put Holden to sleep and we knew about this for about a month and they had one final go riding Holden before Holden was put into retirement and they did that and Liz came home and she just started bawling and finally hit her like, why does why does Holden have to die? Why does anybody have to die? Why can't you just stay around forever? And that was it was very difficult to hear a kid talk
about that. So this weekend, on Sunday, my wife helped plan a goodbye to Holden, almost like a living funeral. We had a cake, we had cupcakes, we had, you know, punch and all that stuff. And everybody that Holden had known was invited to come by and say goodbye to Holden. So the girls had their day. They got to take a last ride. They were, they got to brush Holden, they braided a little bit of Holden's mane and they, they cut it off
so they could have it. We bought the girls these little necklaces and in the necklace, which is very small, we put a picture of Holden in there so that whenever the girls want to see Holden, they're able to see Holden and they have them next to their heart all the time and yesterday to they took Holden for like one final walk to, to graze a little bit and they put Holden to sleep and I'm not the one who stays at
the barn when they go. But this was very difficult for me, very difficult, and it took me a long time to get through why this is so difficult. And I had this conversation, my wife and I think there's a lot of things in there and this relates to alcoholism and recovery. I never cried when my mother passed away in 2018. I was very numb. But I've been crying all weekend over this horse, and I think there's part of that of not having the grieving of my mother.
I knew my mom was going to die before she had pancreatic cancer. So when I found out she had pancreatic cancer, I think a lot of the grieving happen. Then. But I didn't cry after the fact. And there's a lot of where I'm very empathetic. And those emotions from the girls and going to see Holden and patting Holden's head and Holden looking at me and that feeling of, Do you know what's coming? Are you afraid?
And also this feeling of, I don't know how I feel about the afterlife, I don't know if I feel this is a conversation to have my wife has. I don't know if I'm a believer today of the afterlife, and my wife most certainly is. And so it's this feeling of we're taking Holden's life and there's nowhere there's nowhere else for Holden. It's the sad ending. And I realized, like this is a recovery topic. I think this is some stuff that people can
relate to. And also I am shocked how my emotions are all over the place like I was. We were talking about this ahead of time and I was as measured as possibly could I start talking about this? And I got many tears in my eyes again. And I don't remember that level of up and down before I got sober. I'm curious your thoughts and maybe any of your experience of stuff like this.
Yeah, it's a man. There is a lot to unpack there. so many things. You know, we talked about it briefly before we came on the air and. And even last night, a little bit. But, you know, I've had similar experiences where I've lost two siblings and both parents. and I certainly grieved and cried. But through the process, I mean, I don't know that part of it was I never felt like I grieved properly or, or I there was
something wrong with it. And I, you know, at that time, you know, I knew they were going to pass all of those all all four of them. And then my mother in law included. Right. Actually. So five of them, I knew they were going to pass. I was part of the their care they were getting as they, you know, transition to to death. And maybe that was part of it. Maybe the fact that I was part of that
helped me. but I said this to you last night when I put my dogs down, I have sobbed heavier than I did for these people, it seems like. And it feels like it hurt more. And I knew the dog. I mean, the dogs didn't die. They don't get hit by car. We put them down just like you said. We, you know, euthanized them. Just they were it was their time to go. But there's something about an animal, first of all. Right.
So holding the horse about that unconditional connection that you have right there, uncanny emotional love when you have it with dogs. And I'm sure if you're a horse person, you can feel that same connection with with horses. And I'm sure your daughters do that at nine and ten years old.
They have pictures of their horses all over the room. There's a big picture
yeah,
of Holden on my on Analisa side of the room.
I am sure because that's the age when you start talking about what age? You should get a child, a dog. It's that age. It's
Mm hmm.
that nine, ten year old, because they are able to have some responsibility and do some of the work about taking care of it. So at that age, they can be very connected to the animals. So at that age, like you said, their goal, they brush, they clean out stalls, they feed, they ride, they do everything. They're taking care of this. They're they're taking care of this animal. So it's difficult for them. And then one of the hardest thing I've ever done as a parent is watch my kids suffer
and cry. Emotional, you know, emotional distress. You know, I watched them go through some traumatic thing where they struggled and to be powerless over not being able to fix that for that. Right. I don't want my kids. I'd much rather have my have the media hold that pain, Don't watch my kids, although I know it's natural
Right,
and everybody needs to do it. so, so that's the other thing that again is it's a heartbreaking I can still remember situations where both of my kids went through break ups or lost a friend, right? My daughter lost a friend to our disease, you know, and I've talked about it just a torn at the time, 26 years old, maybe, a person who I was trying to find the rooms couldn't. And a a young lady who slept over my house many times, who sat in my
back seat, talk to my kids. You know, I would listen to them. And when when that when that young lady died, it was a punch in the gut It was like just just watching my daughter go through that in the pain. And she knows all about this disease. She, you know, with me, I'm very open with her. She knew she couldn't do anything to help her. That doesn't change it. That doesn't change it. It's it's a whole
bunch of stuff. And here's the thing for me, when it comes down to like, how does this relate to our alcoholism? I would drink, I
Right.
would drink during that, right? I mean, if I had felt that much pain and again, I just want to back up and just a little bit of the story. Right. My sister died of pancreatic cancer in May of 2009 and I was on the road to a relapse. Okay. It was coming. It had been coming for a couple of years for me. I picked up on relapse in October of 2009 and and there's a direct connection that my sister had nothing to do with that. Her death had nothing to
do it. But it was one of the little chinks in that armor where I was like, Fuck this, man, I'm done. Yeah, No, really. I was like,
Yeah.
just like. Like I'm done with God, right? He just took a 45 year old with two young kids at home and, you know, three kids, but two young kids. I was done. I was pretty angry at that time. And, you know, a few months later, I picked up and relapsed and like I said, the relapse was coming anyway. But that that sort of helped me along. And that's what I that's what I want to do when I feel that pain. Right? I want to drink.
Oh,
I want
I
to
dove
numb
into
it.
a bowl. Ice cream.
Yeah, well
A
that
that's
that
my
works
drug
too.
now.
Yeah. Now that, that works too. So, just a lot there. It's a it's a slow, you know, the nice thing is we can recognize it. You can talk about it, right? I mean, you went to a
Yeah.
you went to a meeting last night, you brought it up?
I did not want to go to that meeting last
Yeah,
night. I was in no mood,
right.
but I went anyways.
Yeah.
I'm glad I went, because this little meeting we have that depopulated now seems to be the meeting where the new people are showing up,
Yeah, I agree.
which is very interesting.
Yeah. My my wife asked me, She goes, How'd the meeting go last night? My wife never asked me about my meetings. No, How do you mean? Your last night. I like meeting was great last night, and I told her, like I got two new people showing up. I'm like. And I like. That's. That's what makes it worthwhile. I said, That's Matt. And I talk about like, that's why we have that meeting. We've talked about that on this podcast.
Yep,
Why do we have a meeting when only four people show up? Because we had two new people show up last night and one of them had called up fellow, one of the guys who started attending this meeting and said, I need a meeting in the worst
way. So, you know, when we hear that in our line of business, that is why I show up there every week so that those guys know and and then the other guy, it was interesting, I was talking to one of the guys when we leave and I had picked up for the for the meeting and I said that the story we have a story night last night out of the big book and it talked about somebody who started drinking at 15 and in being new and not fitting in and there was a brand new guy who is fresh into a
less than 24 hours sober, he
right,
said.
not even right now. He didn't even he didn't even take a 24 hour trip because he was not yet 24 hours sober.
Right.
Think about that. And you could tell. I mean, I picked up on him right away and, he you know, it just like, you know, our story talks about this the story talked about this guy not wanting to be part of and then this guy wanna sit outside of our outside of our little circle. And I just got him a book and like, hey, why don't you join us inside the circle, you know? So hopefully we'll see him again, right? We don't know. We never know. These people are going to show back up, but hopefully
we'll see him again. But getting back to the topic is, is I would drink over those situations. I drank not to feel these feelings if I felt like I was going to cry over or something, or if I felt pain over my kids, you know, you know I'm going to. Yeah, I'll be I would be drinking if I, if I could, but I can't.
I drink. I shouldn't say I drink. I drank when I was too happy because there was almost a feeling when things were too good that I was getting out of my skin. It was uncomfortable to be too up.
Mm.
So those moments where things were really, really good, I would have to drink to bring myself down.
Yeah,
But the drinking, when things were bad, well, that's just something you have to do to to
yeah.
make yourself feel better. But you're not really feeling those things. The other thing is this. This felt a lot like new, new sobriety, where the emotions were all over the place and not controllable in any way. If you're brand new and you're starting to feel these emotions coming from nowhere and you go from laughing to crying and 30 seconds, nothing's wrong, You have suppressed all of that with alcohol for a long, long
time. And Roger Ebert said it best when it's like it's like you take a balloon and you put it under the water in the bathtub and you let it go. And that's how my emotions have felt. All of that with empathy for my girls. But our conversation about God. So it's not that I'm angry at God. There's not like anger there. Here's where I run into problems with a higher power is I overthink it. I think this whole and I had this conversation of my wife mentioned I guess I'll back up.
My wife mentioned that it took her about five years to grieve. Her mother, and in that time she was crazy as a loon, very anxious and very difficult to be around. And that was when I first got sober. So it's meshed with she never really took the time to grieve her mother. And then I got sober all of that time, and she was incredibly difficult to deal with. She was incredibly you never know when you're going to get a not so nice penny. And when she was not
so nice, it was not so nice. And you never knew you could see it building. But when she flipped a switch, it was tough. And she went and got fair therapy and she took care of it and got past it and is a whole different person. But she said, Think about what I went through. You know, this a lot of it could be about your mom. And I don't know. I don't know if it's tied to that, but I definitely know it's tied to lack of a belief in an afterlife. And this is a lot of
I start thinking it through. It feels silly that there's an afterlife. I mean, is there are we just collecting people since caveman times up in heaven, do animals get to go up there? And if you have eternal life, why do you have suffering here? Why do you have this life here to do all this stuff if you're going to end up there? I start thinking through on a granular level of what that must look like, and then I end up telling myself, Well, it must be stupid. We're a worm feast when we die.
And then I think about that with Holden, and that is 29 years of there. Now he's gone. I think the other part is when it comes to putting animals down, it's one thing if they pass away naturally, but we have to make that decision and
mm.
there's that thought of did we make the right decision?
Yeah,
That was something we had to do. My mother in law that we had to make the decision she had a stroke, she went home. She was home for three or four months. She fell. She hit her head, which would have left a bruise on you and me. But because she was on Coumadin, she bled out and it caused a bleeding stroke and she pretty much was a vegetable at that point. So we had to make that decision. And, you know, as we pulled all the plugs, she was looking at her husband, she was
crying. And my mom thought, did we do the right thing? She tried to tell us, I don't want this. I still want to be alive. And I think that's the piece of we're killing this person. We're killing this animal. Are we doing it at the right time? Should we be doing this to this animal? There's that piece to
yeah. Tough, tough choices. You know, if you live long enough and. you may have to make some of those choices I've had. We've had to make them and we had to make. We had a very similar situation with my dad. My dad had a stroke, my dad had dementia, and my dad ended up. He was a very difficult patient and in his nursing home would, would, wouldn't stay in bed. And, you know, he had diabetes, so he had a sore on a foot. He was he was not in good shape. And he slipped and fell, went to the
hospital. And we made a similar we made a similar decision not to keep him alive. I you know, those those are things I never struggled with. Like, I didn't struggle with that decision for my dad because I knew what his life was going to be like. Right? I mean, he didn't know who we were at the time, it just wasn't going to be a pleasant, it wasn't that pleasant. And, and again, this is maybe a whole nother topic, but my wife and I talk about these things all the time, and neither one of us want
to be in that situation. And, but with, with the animals. My wife has always said that it's the gift that we could give our animals is that we don't have to let them suffer. Right. If they have physical suffering or if they have cancer or our last golden had, I'm sure, probably a cancerous tumors and was having seizures and stuff like that. Like we don't have to let them continue to suffer until they waste away and die. We can go up there and peacefully put them
down. it is very peaceful. I mean, I've done it with two dogs now and it's very peaceful for them. Once, once they get the medicine and they calm them down and all, it's not so peaceful for me. But I am like I said, it was it was heartbreaking for me because they were so good and I, I told you this last night, I have a golden retriever right now that just will turn seven next month. God, it's going to be tough. I just know right now she's the sweetest dog I've ever had. It'll be really, really
tough. but again, you know, going back to the drinking stuff, one of the things we know is one of the best thing about this mat is that we have a place to bring it, right?
write.
I mean, this is the whole point, right? Like, why are we talking about I can see somebody say, What are you talking about? Well, here's why we're talking about it, is that when it comes up, like you didn't want to go to the meeting last night, but you went to the meeting and you talked about this situation, which I always tell people you share on the situation or you share on what you need to share on and you did the second yesterday. You shared on what you needed to share on
which was this topic. Listen, here's what's going on with me. You know, I just have this feeling struggling. I'm sad, I'm crying, and you let the group know where you are
Mm hmm.
right now. Listen, if you didn't have this, yeah, you might talk to Penny about it, all right? But the other. If you were still drinking, you might say something to Penny. You may not say something to Penny, but you'd probably handle it by drinking.
Yes.
And today we don't have to do that.
Or if I had bacon and I definitely would take a Vicodin
right? Or you will. Absolutely. Or
because
you would
I
take
wouldn't care after that.
or out of man or whatever. But know whatever you might be taking it the time. Right? No question about it. And that's not to say that people who need those type of, you know, medications should not take them. I don't want to ever tell people who need something like that not to take it. But for me.
But you don't need Vicodin for emotional pain.
No, no, you don't know. I know, but out of that event, you know, maybe might help you through that situation. But. But those aren't drugs that I take are those aren't drugs that I want to take. And I don't want to. I'd rather feel my emotions today. I would I'd rather feel my emotions. I'd rather deal with them and I'd rather work through them. And I just want to touch base on your you know, it's something I've been sharing a lot about. My wife and I talked about this this morning.
Matter of fact is this whole afterlife thing, it's like I, too I've gotten to the point where right now it just doesn't make any sense to me. You know, I've done a lot of reading on it. I've done you know, I've been a, you know, person who had a, you know, born up, raised Christian, believed in that and Jesus and heaven and all those things. And today I don't. I really don't.
And I will tell you and I've shared this before and I heard a meeting recently, it has created a hole that I haven't figured out yet. I and I don't know, I mean, I have some ideas how to work through it, but I haven't gotten there yet, and it does. And I think that could be something like you said that that could be part of your struggle
It's
is like
a big part of a
right there. Look what, what happens now. And again, it feels like you know how we all feel about where death falls and everything. just it's my own opinions, my own own take on it. But I think death is part of living. I really do. I think it's like it's part of that process, right? We end up, we live, we live, we live, and then we all get to this point where
we're going to die. I, I just don't see it as a horrible thing for someone, you know, for a 29 year old horse, which I would guess is a fairly old horse.
that's a fairly old horse.
Right. You know, I always say like somebody gets to be. Yeah, I read obituaries of 99 year
Yeah.
olds
Mm hmm.
and they'll say they died after a short illness. And I'm like, No, they died cause they're 90
Right.
right now. Right. And really, like, their body was the you know, the body couldn't handle that short illness, not because the illness killed. They were 90. There had done you know, they were done. My mother in law was 90 when she died. She died of congestive heart failure, but she died because she was 90. You know,
Right.
she had she had congestive heart failure when she was a you know, it was failing when she was 80, but it didn't kill her because she was 80, not 90 anyway. Bu the whole thing is, is how we process death. and to me, it's not a scary thing. And again, maybe that'll change when I'm at death's door. I don't know. I won't know until I get there.
But if I you know, if I have enough, if I'm given the chance to understand that I'm actually going to die and don't die suddenly, then I, I'll see how I, I address it then, but I think I'll be feel the same way. Like
Yeah.
it's
I don't
just
feel so good about death.
no.
And I think it more has to do with seeing my own life slip away
Mm.
and not having accomplished enough.
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
I am constantly feeling regret of having done enough of my career, haven't done enough in my life. I don't stop and be present
Well, like
in.
I say, like I say to my buddy Mike when he starts saying those things, Matt, I have a program that could help you with that.
Huh?
Yeah,
No, I know this is this is definitely alcoholism related,
right. Absolutely.
the alcoholism mindset.
Yeah.
And my wife turned to me, she goes, Maybe doing what you do with the podcast is the reason you're here
yeah,
that maybe you can get one person. So we're doing this show. Maybe
yeah.
you don't know because she talked about Holden. Like Holden touched all these lives for a 29 year old horse. Holden lived an extraordinary life, just how he's touched my girls and our family. And she said, maybe you are touching lives, doing what you're doing, and you'll never know. And I look at that. My path, that would be wonderful.
hmm.
But there's all of these feelings are all alcohol related. And she has a strong faith and she says, I feel my mom's presence all the time. Sometimes
Right.
I feel my grandmother's presence.
Yeah.
My daughter, when she was much younger, Addison, would have conversations with Rhoda looking at the picture, and she'd be responding back in ways that Rhoda would actually talk. And she'd never met Rhoda.
hmm.
And she would say things. We had a family friend watch her, and one day and she said, You know, my Grammy, my Grammy loves to give me kisses and hugs and my Grammy wants to tell you something. She goes, What? My grandma said, You have to give me kisses and hugs to
hmm.
like little things like that. And she doesn't
Right,
remember it.
Right,
But there are those things that it was very clear to us there's some type of connection there, that she knows things she shouldn't, but
right.
she has no reason to. And I'm so jealous of my wife's faith in that.
There's a comfort in that. There's no question about it. And it's one of the things it's one of the things that. That I struggle with being at this place where I don't believe in a lot of that stuff. The the way the way I put it, I don't believe in the supernatural, if you will. And and I do look at
people who have that. I was talking to, you know, somebody last night about it and we were he was talking about how, you know, he's been he's been told that he needs to get on his knees and pray and he's like, I've never been that person and neither have I, you know, which is amazing. Being that I was brought up Catholic is I certainly would pray on my knees in church and all that kind of stuff. But even at home, I was never a get on my knees and pray
person. And even in recovery, I never felt like it never felt right to me. And a lot of people swear by it. And one of the things I said this, you know, again, some of these conversations, I don't know why they've been coming up with my wife and I. I said, it's like one of those things that I'm sort of lost that right now. We talk about it right in one of
our in our program. And other people say if you're struggling with something, pray on Well, if I don't believe in the afterlife, if I don't believe in the supernatural, if I don't believe in a God, there's no reason to pray. So when I'm feeling uncomfortable and this is one of the things I have to work through, how do I deal with it? And I'll tell you right now, I don't have an answer to that. I deal with it like you're dealing with it. I talk to other alcoholics. That's how I deal
with it today. I bring it up at meetings or I bring it up one on one and I talk to other alcoholics about them.
There's a lot of stubbornness in me with this, with sometimes praying. I know I can't put my finger on it, but I can feel the stubbornness that I'm not doing it almost out of spite.
hmm.
There's something about it that if I'm sitting there praying and there is no God, then I'm being foolish.
Mm.
My wife asked me, you know, should we start going to church? Is there a churchy feel more connected? I'm like, No, definitely not the Catholic Church. There are other churches I'd like to go to. I don't feel connected. The the the rote nature of a church service bothers me. The Catholic Church really bothers me because it feels like the rote actions that you take of stand up, sit down, kneel, chant at this time, sing it. This time. Everybody gets up. They get the or they go sit down.
That those motions that you take are more important than the spirituality you get out. This is my own opinion. If you're a good Catholic, God bless you. I am jealous of you. This is just how I feel. And it feels that way in other places. I do feel more spiritually connected. At an AA meeting, there are times that I have felt the presence of God, so I have less of an issue with. I definitely have a belief in some type of higher power.
I'm
It's the disconnect to an afterlife. That's my issue.
Yeah, I get that. And I mean it. And, you know, I've. I toyed I've talked about it on this, like, toyed with some Buddhism stuff, and, you know, and Buddhism, you know, they do have believe in an afterlife of some sort, but not sort of a place like a heaven. And, you know, some of those things are very comforting to me. I don't know, it's a weird place here, but here's what I. I've talked about it. I talked about John Charlie's, uh, John Charlie, years ago taught me something
that I bought into. And they said early on, and I remember hearing it, it's in the seeking, it's not in the finding. And what they're talking about was which as you seek your higher power, as you seek that power that's greater than yourself, whether you call it a higher power or God or whatever, as you as you try to figure that out in your program or in your life, it's the seeking part of it as that's the powerful rather than the finding part. And when I
heard that, I believed it. S I that's what started me on this path of checking things out and reading different stuff and playing around with a little bit of Buddhism and and trying to figure out like, okay, what do I believe in? Cause I don't I grew up Catholic and I don't believe in that anymore. and then I went to an Episcopalian, you know, for most of, most of my adult life. I was in a the Episcopal Church looked a little bit better and Catholic, but still the same, you know, the same
stuff. it's like I I've decided to go on this journey and I talked about it years ago, like on a spiritual journey. I don't know where it's going to bring me. I don't know where I'm going to end up, but that's what I'm doing. So that's why I'm comfortable being at a place where I could say, I don't believe in a heaven right now. I don't believe in a God. At least a God that I understood to be is
my childhood God. And that leaves me in a place where I don't know what to do with certain things, but I also know that I'm not done. I'm not done seeking. I'm not done trying to figure this stuff out. It's not like, okay, I'm done with this. I want my hands on and I go on now I keep working on, I keep going to meetings, I sit next to people, I sit next to people who are very spiritual. And every meeting like these people have powerful spiritual connections. Right,
Yeah. What have they figured out that I haven't?
Right. My buddy, Mike. Mike, you know, our buddy Mike, who who I bring to meetings is a die hard Catholic boy, right? The good old Irish Catholic boy.
He
And
enjoys going to church
and he loves going to church. He loves going to church. And there was a time in my life that I loved going to church.
me to
And and if, you know, there was a time Mike Brockers broke his ankle and he couldn't he walks Mike walks at church pretty much. But now he has a friend pick it up. A long time. Mike was walking the church. Mike doesn't drive and he asked me. I used to pick up Mike almost every week and take them to church and drop them off and then pick them up. and you know, and I've got no use use for the Catholic Church, but it's his connection and I am 100% okay.
He tells me all the time, Hey, Steve, I'm going to I'll pray for you. And I say, Great, Mike, I need all the prayers I think you can give me. I you know, I tease them all the time. Did you pray for me this week, Mike? He goes, I pray for you every day. Steve I'm like, Great. Mike. I need it. Just like, just in case, you know, just in case. I want you to pray for me.
it. Mike has the affection and loyal, and I mean this in the nicest way. Mike has the affection and loyalty of a pair of my dogs.
absolutely.
That's the best way to describe him. And I do not mean that in any negative way.
No, no, I agree.
You become Mike's friend. He has the simplicity of his emotion back that it feels like how your dog looks at you when you come home.
now he's.
He
Mike has taught me. I mean, this honestly, Mike has taught me so much about gratitude in and compassion and friendship and all of those things. And I really it's one of those things like, you know, you can learn lessons in strange places. And when I started hanging around Mike, trust me, I didn't think I, you know, if you had asked me early on, my ego would have said there's not a thing Mike could teach me that there's not a thing. I'm sure I could help, Mike, but there's
not a thing Mike. Mike can teach me. And luckily, you know, that's not true. I really, you know, listen, I'm get I'm getting up early tomorrow morning. Mike's got a doctor's appointment, and I'm taken to a doctor's appointment because I like doing stuff for him and like helping him out.
you will have he will give such gratitude as well. What
So,
a grateful person for anything you do to him. Do
yeah,
for him.
yeah, I agree. So all
I want
good
to share.
stuff.
I want to share a review. We finally got a review. So this is. Thank you. It's five stars. Grateful Alan on. I love the fact that we have an Alan on listener in Kansas City. Thank you for being here and for doing this. I just love this podcast have gone all the way back to the beginning and I've listened to every episode. I'm so glad I did so much good stuff. This is Lisa from Kansas City, Missouri. Lisa, thank you so much. We love hearing feedback. Please go to
Apple. Give us if you think we deserve five stars, give us five stars and a review. I read every single one of them a rating on Spotify. You can find us on Instagram at Sober Friends Pod. Our website is Sober Friends podcast, where you can connect directly with the show. I hope this talk of a higher power and loss in emotions. It wasn't about a horse, it was about more than that. And I'm willing to share my raw emotion with you because if it helps one person
that makes it worthwhile. Steve, thanks for being be in my shoulder tonight.
Yeah. Thanks for having me, Mat. Glad to be here.
We will see everybody next week. Bye, everybody.