Right in the intro we talk about we try to remain anonymous. That's the second A and AA. The first one is Alcoholics. That's how I identify. And the second AA is anonymous. But what does it mean to be anonymous? Is it relevant to today? And so why do people in AA remain anonymous? What's your thoughts on this? Steve?
Hey, Matt, Nice to be with you again today. Yeah, it's a it's an interesting topic. I've gone through different variations of how I felt about this when I came in the first time, way back when I was very private with who I told. I didn't tell anybody. And I should even say that even this time, like nobody at work really knew it until most of the people I worked with that I was an
alcoholic. I certainly didn't tell them I was in AA, but they all knew I didn't drink and there's a few reasons for that for me. One is there still is this, you know, this idea, this this thought of what an alcoholic really is, right? We talk about. Yeah, you say it always right. Guys in a trench coat would one. One bulb hanging over a smoke filled room maybe back in the day. There still are some people who view alcoholics
in that way. So, you know, it's interesting what I just just jump back when I first got sober. Sober. 95, I was really involved with the church. I was out for a while and I had taken on a lot of responsibilities that I realized I couldn't handle, which is a typical another holding of the story. And I went up to the rector at the time and told him, I'm like, Hey, listen, I have a problem. I need to go get some help. and I'll never forget his. He told me because I was really involved. I was
assistant treasurer. It's like, be careful who you tell, you know, like in the church environment. So, you know, that always stuck with me. I think that might have been a big reason why the first time through I didn't tell a lot of people, you know, I feel very differently about it till I today. I don't care who knows. And today I'm very comfortable with me being out there so that I can help other people
Where did this start anyways? Let's go back to the beginning. My son was asking about this because I was asking my son as we were driving to Chipotle for some food, I'm
who,
like, Why don't you give me? So what did you say Lou for?
you know, I love your.
I love that place.
Yeah,
So good, so bad for you. But
yeah,
it was so
yeah.
good.
It's okay.
He I asked him, Why don't you give me a topic? And of course, that set him off to perfectionism. I go,
hmm.
okay, so. So, okay, so this is what we're going to do. This is what I'm thinking about is anonymity. And he was asking me, well, why do people stay anonymous? And I'm like, That's a good question.
Yeah.
So what was the original origin of anonymity and why
Yeah. The original, the original thought behind it was that it was a small group of guys, Right. Who are a lot of professionals. You know, they had you know, they had a standing in the community. Yeah, I don't know about that. A lot of these guys were pretty bad drunks. I would not show that Bill. I'm not sure that Bill Wilson had much standing in the community by the time he got sober, but a lot of people who they were trying to help would
come in. Right. It was. We talk about it all the time was 1935. It was a lot of white guys, affluent, who were they were looking to help their a doctor, doctor Bob. And, you know, there are there are all kinds of higher, you know, higher echelon people you know. And then we talked about it, right. The Oxford Group, which was which was geared towards that group, that higher echelon of people of
people of influence
all right. People of influence, people of wealth, people of all that kind of stuff. Right. So yeah, so there was like, no, we couldn't get this out there, right? We can't let people know that we're recovering alcoholics and then it went on, right, that it was, it was put out there to protect the program itself. Once that got going, it's the old thing of if you're out there screaming from a mountaintop, Hey, look at me. I'm sober. A saved me. And then two weeks from now, you're
out there drunk. Yeah. It may hurt the program by people saying, hey, yeah, see, a doesn't work. And that's still a problem today, right? I mean, there's still problem today. Like, oh, this this stuff doesn't work, you know, people still feel that way.
That was the one thing that I told my son is that it's protecting the program
Yeah,
and protecting the group, because if somebody goes out there and runs their mouth off and then they start drinking, it hurts the program and therefore it hurts other people. Here's another way I've understood it is if you're in AA and you break your anonymity, you may put the people who are around you at risk. The people who don't want to break their anonymity. So if they know that you are open, then they can see the people you're hanging out with. Well, they must be in the program, too.
So there's some thoughts around them
Yeah. There's, there is no question. Right. When, when Just a few years ago. Right. Well I've been around for, you know, 12 to 13 years now. Right. So when social media became a big thing, there was a lot of talk through do programs of trying to stay anonymous on social media for exactly that reason right now. You know, listen, you're out in social media, right? You're open your stuff. Your picture is out there running this podcast and doing all this kind of stuff. So
you're open to it. what happens is, you know, I see a lot of people, I don't share anything. I don't share like a lot of people out there. We know we see them. They'll get a they'll get a a month, a yearly coin, and they'll take a picture of it and they'll post it on their Facebook or something.
all that pisses Jon
Yeah.
off. Oh, has it
and
piss him
I,
off?
I see that from other people or people talking about it. And this is not in a group like it's not in a closed group, right? This is in public that, you know, many people can see, or at least it looks that way to me. my point is. Yeah, but so then people start saying, Oh, if this guy's in recovery and Steve's one of his friends and Steve likes this post, then Steve must be in recovery too,
Right? And just what you're saying, how you know, people can make some deductions and things like, you know, Steve must be in recovery, right. Just because of some of the things that I've done up on social media.
Our buddy Howard L who does
Yeah.
the AA recovery
Yeah.
interviews. He did our podcast. We'll look back in the in the archive and listen to that one because Howard was outstanding. He he really takes it to the nth degree in his, his show. He, he, he keeps total anonymity and he'll edit out. If you have a reference to a place near
Yeah,
you, he'll take it out like he has 100%. I keep it anonymous and I very much respect that. Having said that, in the podcasting business, it's tough to market your show if you keep it totally anonymous. That's a very difficult thing, which is one of which is the main reason I do what I do in social media, because it brings
right.
attention to the show and I'm bringing attention to a show that can help other people. You kind of have to do it if you want to grow.
I don't think there's any question that if we're going to do a podcast right which is a fairly new medium of getting stuff out there even though it's been around for a while. Right. It's sort of has really matured a lot where you got lots of big names and people out there. I think if you're going to do a podcast or if you're going to do something in that realm of like electronic media type stuff, yeah, you need to get the word
how do you get the word out? How do you get people how do you drive people even if it's just like this all free, whatever it might be? How do you drive people to this place so that they might be able to find some help and that that can only be done by getting Avatar, you know, getting your name out there, getting on social media and letting people know where you are,
There is I found out about this yesterday, and I don't know where the heck I have been, but we have somebody that we know and one of our meetings who listens to a podcast on Barstool Sports, which is a recovery podcast. It's called Friends of Jerry and Right on the cover is a coin with basically the AA logo. And Jerry is not anonymous and he interviews celebrities and stuff. It's another person out there with the logo, and I'm sure he does incredibly well
with this. So it's kind of if you want to be in this, get the get the message out. There's other people who are going to step step out. I was thinking a lot about this as well because I was starting to watch the Bill W movie on Amazon Prime, basically because Bill Sheinberg modestly chastised me for not seeing it. He's all over it. But the people who are in AA are shaded, so they're like in shadow. But the shadows are so ridiculous
right? Yeah,
that you
yeah,
can see
yeah,
who they are. So they get the bill and it's like, Well, that's Bill. It's very clear to me that it's Bill who's in there. And Bill will tell you, I'm in that movie. I'm in all over that movie, as they should, because he's one of the foremost experts. But I'm just looking at some of these experts they have because they're in a they're shaded and like this is kind of silly
yeah. But it is a tradition, right? It is out there that, you know, it's one of those things that was set down years and years ago about being anonymous until that changes. Right. And which I don't think that will ever change, right. I don't think that'll ever change as being one of the traditions, one of the principles of AA
the program would just be
Right.
a then,
Yeah. All right. you know, I think it's out there and I think there's good reason to have that for, for a lot of reasons we've talked about. Right. There's listen, there's this whole program and, and not even just AA, but society in general filled with a lot of egos. Right. And if you let people's egos run wild. And one of the things that Bill Wilson wrote about was that right, Bill Wilson even talked about it himself, like Bill Wilson had an
ego. so by putting some of these checks and balances in there, you're able to check those egos a little bit. I know it could have been a problem for me. I mean, like I'm a I'm a scream, you know, I'm an over sharer of
you know,
information. I'm a loud and I'm opinionated. All of those things like this helped me early on to make sure that I wasn't getting out of hand. So there's good things on it. Like I said, today is different. You know, I've been through it today. One of the things I want to do is be able to help as many people as possible. And I can only do that if I you know, people know that I'm in the program and that doesn't mean I put it out in public, but I
don't hide it right. Like now when I have a conversation with somebody I've talked about it with a neighbor across the street. If I have a conversation that I don't drink typically I follow that up with, I'm in recovery. Just so they know, just in case they have a brother, a sister, somebody else, maybe their husband, maybe they have a problem that they go, Oh, Steve's in the program. Maybe I could ask him about this. So I want to I want that to be available to people nowadays at
this point in my life. But not everybody feels this way, right? We had a thing the other day where, you know, somebody shared at our meeting that they did not want to break their anonymity at work. They knew somebody who probably they thought could be, you know, helped. and they didn't. And that's fine. Like this. whatever your position is, is okay. I happened to go up to that person after the meeting, and I said, I've got a solution for you. Give him my number. Just say, Hey, I know this guy.
That's all you have to do. I know this guy who might be able help you. You don't even have to explain how you know me. You can tell me I'm a friend of your sister. Whatever. I mean, if you have to tell a white lie. I said, Jim, give him my number. And actually, who's his mother? The person's mother said, Give his mother my number. Tell him, not his mother, to give me a call. I thought that was a perfect solution for that, you know, because
And it's a great solution.
it took him out of the picture and, you know, still gave this person maybe a chance to get some help if he if he chose to.
I look at anonymity as more than black and white. It can get very easy to say there is a black and white to anonymity. You don't tell anybody about anything and you don't put your name out there. I would say Howard is more on the black
Oh,
and white
absolutely.
scale to some level. I think there are shades of gray in here. Although I put my face out there. I try not to put my last
right.
name out there, but it wouldn't be that hard to figure
No,
out who I am. But I also try and be careful with my language age, if I will refer sometimes to AA, but I try and refer to it as recovery, as sobriety, as
right.
a program of trying to be careful all of the language. Because I look at anonymity as I'm not speaking for any particular organization, I'm speaking for me. So if I'm talking about it, this is what was going on at this meeting. My recovery group. I'm sober. I think that's a way of tiptoeing around it. I think you can do that. I think the other thing is people might ask you is, okay, if you're anonymous. Do you know who the other people are at a meeting or what's the answer to that?
not always. Not always. I mean, the truth is, if you go through meetings, if you go to a meeting for years and years and years, you will get to know people. But I've been going to meetings for years and years and years, and I don't know people, right? I mean, I know them by their first name, maybe their last initial. And many times, obviously, of course, if I get in, we get into smaller groups. Some of our meetings, of course, you get to know these people by
their full names. But the majority of people in a meeting, if I go to a meeting and there's 40 people now, I may know ten of them, maybe 15 of them really by name and like have a relationship with them that I'll know their name. The other guys are just, you know, they're just Mark's and John's and, and is, and, and that's all. But they do come with a phone number.
Typically, I have I have phone numbers for these guys and even in this are you know the amazing thing is even if I don't know their last name, you know, they'll still pick up the phone for me. It's interesting you said that one of the our buddy Edson mentioned at a meeting a couple of months ago now that the brother of one of the guys who would typically who came to our meeting not regularly, I mean. Yeah, Yeah, regularly, but
not every week. He would show up on a regular basis and that might mean every three or four weeks he would show up. And I asked him like, Oh, I have to look for the yeah, I have to look for the information in the obit obituary. And he said, I don't know his last name. Right. And that's one of the problems with this
Right.
Maybe you want to go down and see him. How do you go out and see somebody in a hospital if you don't know their last name? but yeah, I mean, you know, some people you don't know some people. And again, that's hey we know guys we especially one I Dave B they be forever since I've ever met the guy says his full name and every meeting
Yes.
hey I'm Dave you know and his last name and I'm an alcoholic All right so he's he's he chooses to do it that way all the time.
And nobody calls him Dave. They call him by his full name
Yeah,
as though it's one
right.
name. Hey.
Yeah, right,
Hey, Dave. BLEEP is doing this
right,
or Hey, Dave. BLEEP
right.
is doing
Yeah,
that.
right, right. You do. Because that's the way he introduces himself.
Well, actually, I when I was brand new, I asked him about that and he told me he goes, I have every right to break my anonymity. You have no right
Yeah.
to break
And that's
my
the truth.
anonymity. So just because I give my name doesn't mean I'm giving you
Now,
permission.
that's actually true, although confusing to some people, and especially new people. But is that is an apple absolutely true statement. my wife and I had to and I've said this before, right when I got sober this last time I got married to a woman at a time when I wasn't drinking and I was in air quotes, if you will, in, in, in recovery. Although I wasn't doing a meeting, she didn't know how it worked. She had no she had no clue. So I was
far away from being sober. But when I relapsed and when she found out that I relapsed, I realized that I had no control over who she was going to tell. Right. And I used to like she worked in a school situation.
I never.
I used to laugh about it. I'm like, she's probably in there telling the janitor, You know what I found out? My husband's a drunk and he's in, you know, like, and I that I couldn't stop, right. Because she sort of had a right to do that because of the way I behaved. we can't break anybody else. It's hard. It is a it's one of the subjects that does come up on a regular basis in meetings because people forget
about it. And I and I do think as time goes on, you know, with, with all the social media and now zoom and that kind of stuff, like you really have to be careful with it because again, you can break yours, but you can't break mine,
I watched the movie. The Anonymous people eight years ago. Now it seems like because it was on Netflix at the time and now it's not. I think you have to buy the movie. If you have not seen the movie, the anonymous people, I would highly recommend it. Great movie. And it really talks a lot about anonymity. And one of the main tenants is we've done ourselves some harm. Being so anonymous because we don't have a way of lobbying for ourselves. So every interest group has a way of lobbying to
move themselves ahead. You can look at I'll give you an example. AIDS groups in the 1980s. So this is this is a pretty marginalized
Oh, absolutely.
group at the time. In the 1980s, groups like Act Up were out there really pushing forward and people were a people with AIDS were
right.
looked at as lepers who brought it upon themselves because these are gay men. That was predominantly the view. And we would look at that as caveman. Now we've come so far, but because we had these these activists in groups like act up, push forward with funding and research, we've come a long way and we've we've come to acceptance, but we don't have that organization for alcoholics
to push ourselves forward. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a school of thought that anonymity has held us back and has held the stigma in place because we don't have a way of pushing ourselves forward to show examples of where it works and the example of how people can change and how this can enhance your life
I think that's a great point, Matt. I think and I think that is a big reason. I mean, there's other reasons, too. There's monetary reasons and all. But I do think that that, that that's a big reason why there's so many people out there doing recovery that is not AA Right. Through through social media
right?
is because then they can push it they can they can, you know, go out there and even, you know, advertise whatever they can. They can advocate, as you say, for themselves to try to get people. And they have this they many of them have the same intentions and the same, you know, the same thoughts as AA tract out. They're really just trying to help people, just trying to help people get sober, you know, and and not really looking like, hey, I'm trying to find this program that's going
to make me rich. No, I'm out there just trying to build this community. Right. We see a lot of women out there. We've talked about a lot of women out in social media doing groups, doing doing Instagram, doing tiktoks, doing stuff like that. I mean, I follow a bunch of women who I really love their messages on TikTok,
Yeah,
and I just love it like they have like 80 something percent female followers, right? And I'm just, you know, I'm one of the 12, 12% of guys, but their messages are so good and they're out there and they're doing it and they're not AA they're not preaching AA Right. They're doing other stuff. And I think that's probably one of the reasons why they're like, Well, I can't do AA because then I can't really push it. I can't push it out there, you know, I
can't advocate for it. yeah, you're absolutely right, some of those groups. But and I'll tell you but, you know, some of those groups, like you said, the age group in the eighties, I mean, man, that took, that took a lot of guts to get out there. That was it. That was a that was a tough time. I
absolutely.
remember that. Well, it was a scary time for everybody. you know, I knew people who were in that community and it was a very, very scary time. but they did. And, you know, politically there was a lot of problems going on at that time with, you know, just like you said, it was like, hey, you brought it upon yourself. but they got out there and they, they got it done. And today it's very different.
So I think there's that that point of view. I will tell you, if I'm on social media and I see people advocating for AA, I think that's a different story for me that that rubs me the wrong way. But I think you can do this without advocating for AA. I think there are ways you can dance around it and say you're sober, you have recovery. Here are some tips to stay sober. Here are some things you can
work on. You can be a member of AA and put a message out there with all the sober stuff and divorce it from AA.
I do think you do a good job with that. When you were talking about when you put your stuff out there on social media, I, you know, I see a lot of that stuff. And you do you're not pushing it. You're pushing sobriety, you're pushing recovery. If you do mention it, it's you know, it's as a path of, you know, a path of recovery, but you're not speaking for it. One of the things I just it just
popped in my head. I know we talked about this last year, too, but when John and I went up to Maine to hike Katahdin last
Mm hmm.
last summer, we were driving around back and forth and all of a sudden on the radio, if you remember, this came a commercial for AA. And both John, I was sitting there dumbfounded, like, are we hearing this right? And apparently we went we ended up going to a meeting and I brought it up to somebody out there. And apparently there's some recovery center right at the recovery center that runs those commercials. But they are blatantly using a name in their commercials.
Mm hmm.
And we were just blown away. I actually I don't know if I still have it on my phone, but I actually recorded it because I couldn't believe what I was hearing, because I you know, that's one of the things that you you never hear. So it is interesting, right, that people do different things. And until somebody called them up and forces them to take it off the air, I guess they're going to keep running it. I'm not sure if that's happened.
I don't think anybody would do that, because then that runs afoul of another tradition that you don't want to bring controversy. So it's like,
yeah,
what's worse, calling
yeah.
them on it.
Right.
So this is where AA
Yeah.
So I'm going to talk in terms of AA from the third person. AA is really funny because you're damned if you do and you're damned
right,
if you don't. You know, it's the whole Jimmer say went and bought the manuscript for the AA book with the idea as I'll give it to GSL.
all right,
Well, they couldn't take it because then they'd be taking this, this big gift and
Yeah, all
you
right.
know, it'll cause it. And now we can't, we can't sue somebody because that's going to cause controversy to
Yeah, That's interesting. I never thought about that, but you're right. I'm not sure that would actually stop them, but I think. Think they could ask them to stop, and they probably wouldn't sue them, but they could ask them that maybe to stop it. But you're right. And, you know, again, I think that, you know, if you ask people who've been around for a while, they would say that most of these traditions, most of these policies, if you will, that they have in the long run work in the
favor of the way AA works. Now, again, you know, things are changing and I don't know if it's going to have to change. We'll have to see right. the organizational structure is not going to change for people who don't know, AA is, you know, is built from the bottom up, not from the top down. Right? So it basically it's, you know, everything starts and all the direction comes from the group level, not, you know, not the main office in New York's level. who knows who knows where it's
going to go? I mean, we, we talk about it all the time, how, you know, things need to be updated and maybe the organizational structure itself has to be looked at, just like you said, for for some of these reasons, I'm not sure that'll happen in our lifetime.
one of the ways I knew that alcoholism existed. And even though this ad doesn't talk about AA, there are two ads. I remember growing up when I was a little kid that I saw a lot about alcoholism, and the movie talks about this. The anonymous people that there was this wave in the seventies and early eighties where a lot of people were coming forward. Dick Van Dyke was one of those people that when he got sober, he was
very much out there. Bob Welch, who was a pitcher for the Dodgers and the A's, had a had something out there. And I knew that Jason Robards was an alcoholic because I heard this ad.
huh, yeah,
So it doesn't say AA. And they're
Yeah,
very careful there. But that ad is what taught me that alcoholism was a disease. And every time I saw Jason Robards in a movie, I thought about him as an alcoholic
Yeah,
From that ad,
of course. You wouldn't be able to unsee that in your in your mind as a kid, especially, Right. Like, Oh, this guy has an alcoholic. And again, what does that mean? Right? Everybody back. And especially when you're younger, what does that mean, Somebody who's an alcoholic,
he's an alcoholic, but he doesn't drink anymore. That's what runs through my head every time I saw Jason Robards, that guy is an alcoholic, but he doesn't drink anymore.
Interesting that. How do you how old were you when you saw that? Do you know,
Probably anywhere between three and five.
No kiddin.
If I. If I were to back if I were to back that
Yeah,
up of when that ad was out there
right.
around five.
Yeah, right. Okay, that makes. And that's young to remember that.
Yeah. I got remember when the whole thing with Jimmy Carter going in the hospice,
right.
I remember a press conference that Jimmy Carter was doing and it had been four or five, it probably was sometime in the late seventies or 1980.
right.
But I remember seeing him on TV as president,
Yeah. Huh
so I got more of a memory than I. Then I think.
know, you do. If you have those memories. I don't have those memories. I don't have those five year old memories. Vaguely stuff. I just don't know what's real and what's not real like I did. I see that, you know, even even smaller things, like the moon landings, stuff like that. like, did I actually see it or do I remember watching it on the news or something? And I don't remember. but that's an interesting thing that a five
years old you heard. And it's interesting that you heard that and then you ended up becoming an alcoholic, right.
Mm hmm.
And it's like, oh, I'm the same as Jason Robert,
I'll take Jason Robards life path. After he got
yeah,
sober.
absolutely.
had some pretty good stuff out there. But there's that view of, you know, that presentation's pretty damn good.
right,
You know, Bob Welch, you know, showing him striking out Reggie Jackson in the in the World Series. It's a pretty good message. And I remembered I remembered he I remember from that ad and it stuck in my mind in the 1990 ALCS when Roger Clemens was screaming at him, drink milk,
right.
which is which is a I guess is a slur against alcoholics.
Right,
Stop drinking. But he was he was screaming that from the dugout
right.
at Bob Welch.
Drink milk.
Clemens is a prick.
He is, um, but, you know, it's, it's interesting because, um, you know, back, back in those days, again, you know, this program was around long, but back in those days, just so I listen, I remember when I came in, you know, I know, you know, we know guys who came in and that time in the, you know, in the eighties for sure. it was it was very different. It still was a, it was a program that that just was still hidden in the
shadows. It really was.and that's why that, commercial is such a big deal, you know, or Bob Welch coming out. It's such a big deal. And I do remember some other people coming up, like, I remember that time, too, and thinking, not understanding what an alcoholic was. Right. not understanding how you got sober by how do you do that? How do you stop drinking, all interesting stuff. like you said, it's a complicated, you know, complex situation as to where
you want to go. I, like I said, nowadays, I, I, I'm willing to reach out, and try to help as many people as I can. getting to the point now where, you know, a lot of, a lot of younger guys are coming in, and I remember, I don't know if it was Chip saying that or oh, it was Dick. I remember with Dick P Friday night meeting, we were talking about sponsorship and how you get to a certain age where
younger guys are coming in. And when I say younger guys, I'm talking about their thirties, you know, your age, even forties, right? And a lot of these guys are looking for younger people that they
Mm
are
hmm.
going to, you know, sort of feel more comfortable with rather than an older guy. And I'm sort of heading into that thing where, you know, I don't see as much many people, although a guy came up to me Friday night and asked me, hey, you know, we were talking about it, and I told him what he needed to do, like needed to reach out to somebody. And he asked me if I would help. And and I said, sure, of course. Yeah. Yep. Willing to help you.
Um, and I haven't heard from him, so hopefully he will hopefully come back. Hopefully he'll come back Friday night and he'll continue to try to get it and he'll find his way.
Well, Chip's 147 and he still has, like, 20 year old guys he sponsors. They seek him out.
it's Chip does hit Chip. Chip does. And I, I do know that he's one of the guys who does have those guys. and that also because Chip's all around, right. And again, we talked a little bit about that last night at our meeting where, you know, I asked Chip, like, how many guys have you sponsored and what he said about 30 guys. So the word gets out, right? Word
That
gets
number
up.
is low
I'd be one about too. I thought I was
number.
gonna Yeah
That's low.
because I listen I in my short career I you know, I told them like am I only talking about guys who have successfully stayed sober? But how many guys have you done it? You know, I probably worked with probably pushing a dozen guys, most of them that staying sober. But I worked with them. I took them to the steps. You know, whether they stay sober is up to them or not Up to me.
Maybe 30 guys with 20 years or more that he's been sponsoring.
I agree. I mean, he said that number I was, you know, I didn't want it. I thought it was kind of low. But anyway, yeah, in Chip is a guy, Chip. Chip knows and he has that he has that reputation that if, you know, if you really want to get sober, he would be a guy that you might want to. You might want to look up.
He won't raise his hand when it comes time to say who's willing to sponsor
Oh,
and he won't. And they say no. If you ask
yeah
him,
right,
he's fired a few
yeah,
people, but
Yeah.
he won't say no. If you're doing the right things. well, this is a sensitive topic and we would love to hear what you have to say. Even you, Mr. Old Timer.
Yeah.
I figured that's what you would think about this topic. If you have thoughts on this, go to Super Friends podcast. You can email right from the website. You can reach us at Sober Friends Pod on Instagram. That's where I kind of communicate the most. Give us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts if you think we're worth it. Same thing on Spotify. Steve, thanks for coming on and having a great show tonight.
hey, Matt. Thanks for having me. And, yeah, it's always good to get together and do this and out there and podcast, man. Yeah, Look us up, give us a yell and, uh, pass. Pass it on. If you're getting something from this podcast, pass it on
And if you're getting something from this podcast, it's a bonus because it kept me sober tonight.
me to.
So we'll see everybody next week by everybody.