I do
Johnny, you're not.
Here. Happy 33rd anniversary.
I got the number right this year. We put it in last week's newsletter. John. I has.
33 years.
Of sobriety. When I get to that point, I'm going to be old. is that holidays and weekends? I think it's holidays, weekends and. Yeah, Yeah, holidays, weekends and four four week No, workdays. no, no. And John is probably, like, in a sweat lodge tonight, you know, doing something, you know, probably out there killing something and eating some, Yeah. No, he's. you know? If I had the time, I would load it up some.
Gunfire. Yeah,
Sound effects because that's what he is and he wouldn't see him if he's in the area because he's in camouflage. He's got.
A bow and arrow or.
He's got some other yeah, type of firearm yeah, that is looking to kill something with. yeah. Absolutely. So I'm sure he's trying to celebrate tonight by killing something. that's about what he does. Yeah. he's got 30.
Three years and.
A lot of wisdom. Sometimes Got. you have a long period of time and you don't have quality sobriety. That is not the case with John. No, I agree. He's been important to us. I know he has Yup. been. You know, both of us have, um. Yeah. Been around 1990. Not anywhere near that amount. So since I've met John and. And gotten involved with them and done some stuff. Yeah, he's been, he's been a very big part of my sobriety, Good so. stuff. So Congratulations, John.
congratulations. And if you have somebody like John in your life, you can bust his balls and have somebody with that quality of sobriety who's willing to help you. You are lucky. Yeah. So, Steve, tonight I want to really piss off the big book.
Thumpers. Wow.
Because I'd like to go to town on the chapter Two wives. It after. Yeah. Yeah. So we read it last night at our big book meeting.
Laurie was there. It's Laurie's least favorite chapter. She doesn't ever really speak.
Very much about it, or she doesn't speak often when that one comes up, because it's a tough one. And I have I have a real problem with that chapter. The more I have learned about it. It's a you know, anybody who've been around a while, you know, there are people out there, there are people out there who just swear that the 164 pages of this book should never be changed, not even by one iota of
one word. And there's a bunch of other people out there, and I'm part of that other group that thinks it could probably use some updating. And I'm a firm believer that if Bill was around today that he would write a different big book and he would be the one saying, We need to change this because we need to make it available to everybody and more people like Bill's whole thing was to save alcoholics because there's so much in there that is from an era that's bygone. You know, it's a hundred
years old almost, right? I mean, Yes. think about it, right? Oh, man. I mean, not now, but Well, 90 years old, put it that way. So it's you know, it's getting it's getting really, really to a point because even though that book was written, don't forget all the ills experienced in those in the in this book. We were experienced years before. Right. So it's like, yeah, this book came out and was published in 1939, but the experiences were were from years prior. So it's an old book with a lot of
old language. The message is still good, the message still works. Certainly the message of recovery, the steps and the searching of higher power and all of these things of how you deal with alcoholics all still work really well. But that chapter and the one after it, families afterwards, family afterwards, those are a bit dated. The language is very
dated. The stereotypical, you know, family functions in roles are very dated, I have less of a problem with the family after, but I got a big problem with that chapter, too. This one sticks out like a sore thumb. And let me backtrack a little bit. I want to clarify that. I don't think Bill did anything wrong in writing this chapter.
This chapter here.
Is a sign of the times. In 1938, it succinctly talks about what the family rules are, what the wife's role is, what the man's role is in 1938. We don't think that way today. But if you take a look and think 1938, you were a lot.
Closer.
To women's right to vote than you are to the sexual revolution. right. We're talking might maybe I'd have to look at the amendment 20.
Years.
Women had had the right to Yeah, vote at that yeah. point. 19 I want to say either 19 or 17. So yeah. Yeah, around the time of prohibition, Right, we're talking Woodrow Wilson.
Territory.
Women did not have the right to vote in the lifetime of most people there. right, It's sort of like when we look back on 911, like 911 seems pretty fresh and there's a lot of people who are young who do not remember 911. But for me, yeah, it seems very fresh. It's about the same time frame in 1938. So and women.
Didn't work out, work.
Outside of the home right. and women.
Had a certain role that.
Was accepted. it's a sign of that time. at the time that the book is being written, an alcoholic by definition, by self-definition, is a given, is a man, a female alcoholic, is a slut. Yeah, right. that was the view. I mean, No, Dr. Bob was he did not want.
Alcoholic women around. no. I think a lot of people didn't want alcoholic women around and I think there was a lot of problems with that. And I think people were very cautious for some of the same reasons why we're cautious today. And we say men with men and women with women, um, which is a good policy and, you know, we talk
about a lot. Again, not to digress, but there's a lot of there's a lot of talk about sex conduct and the big book and if you do to Joan Charlie's they'll they'll tell you that it's probably because it's something that below the belt this book was written by Bill and that was something that was on Bill's mind, like his his own sex conduct and not only his own because he was working with
other alcoholics. And I do think that there was probably other stories and other another other men at that time who brought in stories that were similar. And they said, listen, we got to we got to sort of watch out for this stuff. But I agree, it was a man, you know, it was a man. It was a white man, Right. I mean, it was different than it is today.
White Right. Christian men who Right. weren't Catholic. Christian man, a few atheists, if you will, or your least agnostics as they grew a little bit. But for the most part early on. Yeah, absolutely. White Christian men You for sure. know, that's Yeah, a very waspy best way yeah, to describe yeah, it, because there's a lot of talk in Bill Scheer.
Burge's.
Book, writing the big book about the steps and the way the steps were written that this could get people who are Catholic excommunicated.
Out of the church.
Because of how the Catholic.
Church.
Views the path to salvation. Nobody thinks about that nowadays, but that's a reality back in 1938. So this is a relic of 1938. So myth number one here that two wives was either written by Lois.
Or.
By Doctor Bob's wife. It wasn't That was Ian, right? Yeah. Yep, Ann Smith, yep, but based on her name for a moment. yep. That's okay. Yeah, it's written in the voice of We are the wives of Alcoholics. Right? That's bullshit. Yeah. Bill Very. wrote it. I think the understanding is, is that Bill? Bill, the suggestion was to have one of the women right. Are either Lois or Ian. Lois wanted to write it. Right. But Bill, you know, being a typical alcoholic and not all alcoholics are this way, but was
a control freak, All right? And this was his baby and he had a lot of trouble giving up that control. So he ended up writing himself. And again, it is one of these things. Right. Again, I even think that's part of the sign of the times. Right? Just like you said, I just look, that was 1920, right. That they finally ratified women's right
to vote. So you're right. So this is, you know, 35 I mean, 15 to 20 years after that point, although there had been a movement on to try to get them the right to vote for some time. so Estelle was not typical for a woman to be involved a certain thing. So I think Bill probably still had trouble once he got once he got sober and he was able to, you know, regain his his his place in his own household, I think he tried to, you know, put put the squash on Lois doing that.
I would imagine it's tough, too, because if he had to edit Lois and take things out and move around, what does that do to the relationship? Yeah,
How is she going to react? yeah, yeah. Good point.
That's.
That's very dicey. Yeah.
And he he wanted to keep the flow of the writing style. If you read through this, it's the same writing style as all the other chapters. know, the thing I noticed last night reading through this and one of the nice things about having a a big book meeting that you attend regularly is that you get to go through this. You have to go through these things relatively on a regular basis.
when we read it last night, I was looking at it and I realized like the early part of this chapter has a lot of stuff. Guess, like I said, it talks about the for different type of alcoholics. It has a lot of information there. And I, I said last night it has good information in there. It does it has some good information. That sounds a little bit patronizing, but it's like, you know, don't be quick to anger some of those same things we tell each other.
Like, Yep. that's just good information and that is good information for anybody dealing with that alcoholic. Like, don't be angry, don't be resentful. Like, it's easy to say that I get it. it really is good, you know, information for someone who today has Al-Anon, Right. Let's face it. Right. So the other part of this chapter is that they talk about Al-Anon, because sort of that's where it's directed is for all those people who deal with an alcoholic and
how to deal with them. But there's some decent information in there to help you out and understand and maybe to help yourself out to When I think about Bill's shortcomings.
It's hard to forget.
That he's a human being.
He's not perfect. write.
None of these people are very easy to deify, Bill, because he created this thing. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Him and Doctor Bob created this thing. Bill created this thing. And Dr. Bob is there, and he's.
A very important person.
As is Bill Sheinberg. And they were Hank Parkers. No, Hank, no big book. Yes, that's true. But really, no Bill, No big book. Yeah, I mean, he had help with Hank pointing him in.
The right direction.
And motivating him. But this was a bill project, and this is a lot for.
One person to.
Come up with by himself, for the most part, because he didn't get a lot of feedback from a lot of people to come up with this thing where people at the time did kind of view him almost as a God, which at one hand Bill really liked. On the other hand, he knew this was a problem to keep alcoholics sober because Bill's mindset was, I need to say the things that are necessary to keep alcoholics
sober. And one of the reasons that this book and this chapter can come off as sexist is because he's lecturing the wife to wrap that alcoholic in bubble wrap. Because I don't want him to get drunk again. right. And if I have to err on the side of condescending to the woman, and I'm willing to do that to keep the guy sober so he he's not just coming at it in terms of I'm a sexist, he's coming at it with I got to find a way to keep this guy sober.
And other than the 40 people or so that I know, between.
Here and Akron, we're the only people really who are drunk.
Drunk, drunk, and now have stayed sober for a long period of time. don't Bill's whole you know, we talk about this all the time, builds the whole idea of Bill doing anything with to try to save the next alcoholic. Right. He really was he was singular, singularly focused on that. And if you look at his writings, if you look at anything that he's ever written, it's all about
that. So you're right. So all this information, all of these suggestions where they may be somewhat you know, again, they may be somewhat wrapped this guy in bubble wrap, give him another another chance, all these type of things that today you look at and you go, maybe, maybe now you know, maybe, maybe now. But that that was his sole focus. The other thing that most people don't understand, when you write a book today, right, if you were to write this book today, you would probably spend years
writing this book today. I mean, years, five, six, seven years trying to get this right, get the stories right, get it all perfect. I don't know. Bill did this like in like over an 18 month period, Right. Yeah, measured in months. Months. Right, Right. 18 months. Right. Measured in months, not years. And did he have some help towards the end? The editing? Sure. Yeah, of course. He had some of that. People helped him and read it and but he wasn't a professional writer. This wasn't
his what he did for a living. So, you know, you have to understand that too, that this book was put together. Because the other thing he realized and yes, there's some other things that we've talked about in the past they were looking at as a moneymaker. But he wanted to get this book out. There was a point where he realized, I need to get this book out because I can't go to California. I can't, you know, save anybody in California or have them come to Akron No. or New York. So I but I can send
them a book. So that was his whole focus. So when we look at some of these chapters, I think there's a bunch of chapters in here like this family afterword to the employers is another one, you know, written by Hank as we now understand it. But another one, like those are very different pieces of this book than the early part, which is really trying to understand the
alcoholic right? Those chapters are directed to other people other than the alcoholic, where the other parts are directed to alcoholics himself. If I were to do this book differently, instead of amending the book by Alcoholics Anonymous, I think it would be.
Beneficial for an outside writer.
To come in and rewrite the book almost with almost the title of rewriting the Big book. Something like that, where you could take it and say, The big book exists. Now here is an updated.
Version.
On certain aspects, and really the two wives piece, this really is an Al-Anon thing. hmm. Now that I'm thinking about. We're talking about this Bill has his own codependency issues where he's putting it on. The wife of you have a responsibility, get your husband sober. You All know, the whole right. thing around Yeah, you bitched and moan because he drank coffee and smoked cigarettes. Now it's it's he's dead wrong for that. right, But if you didn't nag him and right.
let him have his smokes, Yeah. he might be Yeah. sober. We today, we'd call that blaming the victim, right? Yeah. Yeah, that I would call that blaming the victim. Yeah, a good point there. Like, he he is really putting the onus on the wife and not completely he gives, he gives, he gives them the out saying, listen, if he doesn't want to get sober he there is a line in there. Right. If he doesn't want to get sober it's best to get rid of them and move on with your life. He does say
that in that chapter. So it's it's difficult. It's difficult. I've said it, you know, I don't understand it. Listen, I don't understand why. And it was my first wife, more than anything, you know, was able to put up with those really, really difficult years, really, really difficult years. We've never had an opportunity to talk about it. And we haven't had that relationship since our divorce to be able to talk about it.
yeah, I mean, everybody has their own reason and I'm sure part of it was, you know, I mean, just like we talk about it, like you could every turn, you know, this program could return us to sanity. I'm sure that's part of what the whys. Why don't we all want the people we love to be returned to the person that we knew him as? So I think that's a big part of it, too, of why there are women who put up with so much.
It's hard when you've you invested in a relationship with somebody that you would let it go just because of the drinking. Mm hmm. And this is where that co-dependency comes in. I mean, Yeah. this is the advertisement.
For.
You don't need this chapter. You need a different.
Program to really address this.
Issue. We also have the problem of you have two AA groups on the entire planet, Akron and New York, and then those two.
AA groups.
Couldn't.
Be much more different. That one in Akron.
I guess it's kind of AA, but it's really still Oxford Group. Yeah, very much so.
They're they're they're their compass.
Is pointing in two totally different directions. And if Bill is going to advise the wives of the male alcoholic, his book is the only thing that, that he has to give to them because there's no meeting in.
Florida or California.
Go buy this book. Read that chapter. Now you know how to deal with your alcoholic husband. And that might be the extent in his mind of what you're going to be able to do because you don't have any help besides this book, You know. Excellent point there, Matt, because the truth is, in New York, in in Akron, there is a lot of talk about the wives being involved with the recovery of their husbands. Usually when the men went to meetings, the wives went with them. All right?
which is another reason they didn't like the female alcoholic Right. Yeah. tempting But their husband. the wives would would typically not be part of the meeting would so many times. Sometimes they would be, I think in New York, probably more than in Akron, but sometimes be part of it. But most of the time sit together while the men had their meeting. So, you know, so so you're absolutely right that, you know, there wasn't a way, just like there wasn't a way to reach the
alcoholic. So you write this book. There also wasn't a way to reach the wife of an alcoholic alcoholic. So there is a lot of information in here like, hey, do this, do that, do this. And it may again, it may sound like at the end of it, it says, hey, we've given you a lot of information. And it may sound like we're lecturing, but we don't mean to lecture and we
don't like to be lectured to. So it does try to clarify that, you know, at the end of the chapter saying, we know this is difficult, this is difficult stuff. And I know Bill had on his mind, The longer we delay this book, the more people may die Absolutely. every day. We the more people die Yep. So let's that I could have saved if I got this done yesterday. Yeah, so let's put it together.
Let's put it out there. I don't know if Bulk Bill ever thought um, I don't know what those thought because there's not a lot of stuff on it, but if there was ever thought of doing a rewrite while he was alive, I think once it took off he realized he couldn't mess with that. But I don't know if he thought when he first published it, maybe he could change his mind. He did. I guess he did by adding different stories to it. So I guess there was a change to it. He put appendices in there
Right? Yeah. between that first printing. In that second printing he did at quite a bit. He Yeah. just put them in different places. Yeah. I agree. So once we get to that second edition, there's not a damn thing that's going to change. no, I It agree. is in stone. I will tell you how to use two wives. This is where a good sponsor comes in. People who know the big book got a big book, meaning the way to use this is take it and then.
Reword it.
Into today's society. It says to wives, This could be your husband. Yeah. This could be a same sex partner. Two partners. This is could be your family. Think about it this way. You have a loved one, regardless of who who it is.
Here are some.
Ways to think about how you work.
With this person.
If you're the alcohol, like read through this. Consider the impact that you've had on your family. I would use it. I like to use it as a conversation starter, but I am not going to use this bill mentioned to do this, this and this. This is how you should approach it. No, you should not approach it that way Yeah, I agree. unless you want No, to get slapped. not not in today's age for most people. Absolutely. There's just too many things in there where I
think you're right. It's just it just it wouldn't work in most relationships today. And you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things where, again, you know, listen, there are people that and we know them, people that do not want this thing changed at all. They are dead set against it. But this is a this this could be written to anybody who loves an alcoholic. Right. And it doesn't even have to be a family member or a partner. It could be a close
friend, right? It could be. You can look at this as a close friend and say, how do I deal with this? You know, how do I deal with this guy? Because this is written to the non alcoholic, right? In other parts of his book, it tells an alcoholic how to help another alcoholic. But this is written to a non-alcoholic of how they might want to help an alcoholic. So there are some things you can
pick out of here. And you're right, just change the language, Change the language in your own mind as you try to share what's in there. If I'm doing it today, I almost would combine this with the family after. I don't think you need to spike out the wife anymore and the family. You need to bring this together. hmm.
You know, if you're the family of the alcoholic, here's what to expect when dad has found recovery or mom has found recovery or his 15 year old son has found recovery, Yeah, I mean, right. that's possible. And the other thing with this is the floor. The bottom has risen up to hit people, not the other way around. It's worth noting here that Bill had in mind that the husband was a.
Very low bottom drunk.
Unable to hold a job, really a hopeless.
Person.
And the closest he got to get ahead of this is his four types of alcoholic. But he really focuses on the low bottom here. You got this low bottom drunk. Yeah, He wants to stop, but he's totally on it.
That's where you start.
Because you that's your man. You got this guy and that's his focus of the people who have a drinking problem but haven't lost everything. We'll get to them later. But at this right. point, it's like the.
Worse they are.
The better they're willing to accept that. Yeah. So he's triaging a little bit He is. You're absolutely right. That's a great way to put it. He is triaging like like so many other people like this. It'll be great if they stop. It'll be great. But typically, those people have not been heard enough in his experience, and he's just haven't been heard enough for his experience that they're going to stop drinking. right?
And it's only that it's only the people who are really lobotomies, who have really been beat up that are the ones who are willing to do the work because this was a radical change. This was a radical thing back then. Do that work. Maybe it still is a radical thing today. I think there's an opportunity for somebody to write the book over again, not have it being a AA thing. But here's a modern take on the big book. If I was writing the big book today, this is what it
would look like. I think that's the closest.
You ever could get.
To updating the book. Like an outsider's perspective of of if we wrote it today.
Here's how.
It would sound. Almost like in an alternate.
Universe. I think we're going to see something on that. I do, I think in my lifetime, which is yeah, I mean, I would hope I hope in your lifetime for sure. I really do. I think there's going to be some changes. My thought and that this is only my own. There's nothing except my own opinion. There is that they're going to put out a different version, right? They're already talking about different pronouns, trying to make it more inclusive.
Um, listen, just politically, as we all know, that's, that's, that's a time bomb. But I think what they'll do is it's going to be a companion. It's going to be a side issue like and it's going to be for each group, just like everything else, like the preamble now. All right. The preamble is people rather than men and women. so just like that, like there's going to be a version out there that different groups can vote on if they want to use different, you know, different versions of the big
book. And I think we'll see that probably sooner than later.
I would like that as sort of a separate study guide, just because it helps you understand hmm. how do you share the message with somebody else and what's the bigger.
On ramp?
Some of the wording and some of these chapters are a convenient excuse for people who want to try and get sober without AA. Right. I can, you know, elephant in the room there are people who don't like AA because of some of this language here, and also because there are some people who are very rigid about the big book is gospel.
If John were here.
He'd probably be pushing back a little bit. Yeah, they would be. Yep. John is 100%. Do not change this book. Mm hmm. And the reason people believe do not change this book is it works. And millions of people have gotten sober when they couldn't before. Don't screw with something that's going to cause people to die.
That's another thought process, I think of the big picture of people changing and more things available for you to get sober other than AA that I would like AA to flex because I still think it's the gold standard. But there's lots of other ways that people are finding sobriety successfully There's there is no question about it. And the reason why is because they are meeting people where they are, if you will. right?
You know, another one of these saying if you meet people where they are and if those people are on social our on social media, then that's where you meet them. And then, you know, and you put out here and we listen. We know plenty of people don't like that doing that type of stuff recovery through through apps, recovery through different programs like that, never meeting people in person. So you have to meet people where they are. It listen, it's not a bad thing that people are getting
sober. Otherwise it isn't. No, it's not. You know, like if a family member or somebody I know, even if somebody I don't know, they came in and they tell me, hey, listen, I you know, I was able to get sober and have a good life doing it this way. God bless them. Even Bill says in this book, we don't have a we don't have the market corner. He says it. We don't have a corner. So go find out what you want. Go find out whatever you want. This is what worked for me. This is
what worked for you. This is what worked for John. If somebody wants my expertise on how to get sober, this is all I can offer them. Because this is all I know. Nothing else I ever tried worked, you know, and I didn't. And even though I do, a lot of I did a lot of zoom stuff and I do some social media, you do a lot more of it. And I, I don't think I would be able to get sober doing that way, but that's just me, No. you know, I don't think I could.
I mean, I'm happy that people can, but I don't think that works. I need that person to person. Get in there, meet somebody, shake their hand, sit next to them, have some type of relationship with them. And that's what helps keep me sober. You know, part of it is we talk about it is the not only the the meeting and the program, but also the fellowship. So, In last week's newsletter, I sent a newsletter out. If you want to sign up at Sober Friends podcast. Each week I put in.
A recovery article that.
I find that I think you might be you might find valuable. This week.
I wrote about.
Somebody who stayed.
Sober for three years.
Using the I Am Sober app.
Where you were.
Pledged to remain alcohol free. You build good habits with this app, so maybe if I'm a little bit younger and I got sober today, maybe I consider an app. yeah, yeah, I'm absolutely. not saying the app is.
Superior, but it's there. Yeah,
And that's that's my concern is that AA becomes AA is on one side of a two.
Tiered sober.
Solution that the have nots because AA is free and available, they go to AA. The people who are tech savvy and have more money go the app way. right.
Or.
A subscription.
Program or a Patreon through.
A podcast Yeah. and I do not want AA to become the thing that the Leftovers go to. That is that would be very, very bad. it would be And and I don't think it will. I think you'll always have a certain group of people who who go and stay. Listen, there's lots of people in there. We know that from our own meetings. There's a lot of old timer people getting older. Certainly I'm starting to fall into that group. Yeah, wrong button. yeah, That's yeah. the one There I you wanted.
go. Yeah, that is the right one that we're getting older and and we're still sticking around. And there's a lot of we know some very affluent people who come around and you know that as you go out to more affluent areas of the country that the very affluent people are going to meetings. So hopefully that sticks. Hopefully that stays around. Listen, it worked. I don't think is going anywhere. It may be changing. Um, it certainly seems to me we've talked about this last week a
little bit. It seems to be shrinking a little bit. Again, that might not be all bad and it might be that other people are finding sobriety elsewhere. And if that's working for them, great. But it'll still be there. And I know in our area of the world it looks like AA will be strong for as long as we need it to be strong. So and we do our part. We show up, we we do what we can make ourselves available to the guy who needs it or the woman who needs it. And and that's all we can do is pass it on.
All right. So we provoked.
A reaction in.
You, positive or negative, you know where to find us. Sober Yeah, Friends podcast. Follow us at Sober Friends Pod on Instagram, on post, and a lot more stuff. Trying to get creative, looking for your feedback, reach out. What do you want us to talk about? What do you like what and not like that keeps us motivated. Getting that feedback from you, knowing that this is something that helps you. Steve. Great topic. Thanks. From I was I was in a I was in a
lousy mood before this. But that's you all know right. what? Another contact with Just. another alcoholic made me feel Hey, better. that's I'm less it. crusty than Hey, I listen, was before. if if you're listening to this and you see somebody creeping through your back yard and fatigues with, like, war paint on with a bow or something, it's probably John. So Yeah, don't don't call the cops. Just, you know, let them be. He'll be
out of the way. He you know, he'll probably take care of that coyote problem you have or something like that, and you'll be I thankful. think I think the the key. There is no sudden movements. Yeah, true. Yeah. And don't don't wear any costumes like animal costumes because. Yeah, you No, could become a no. So. no, All no. right. Ha. No trick or treating in Yeah. his neighborhood All right. Bye, everybody. Have a great week.