little bit of a programming note for the next few weeks or so. We're doing a Jo and Charlie big book study group, which for Steve and I have been a big part of our recovery. John, too. And because John is hosting this and doing it on the night, we typically tape it. John is a little overwhelmed, so he won't hear John for a little bit of time, but he'll be back when John Charlie is done and maybe I can
rope him in for something. And I'm hoping maybe we could rope in some people to sit in that third seat from time to time. But tonight, just Steve and I. Steve, what's shakin? How's the recovery going? Staying sober one day at a time.
Hey, Matt. Recovery is a beautiful thing. It's better than where it came from. So every day, every day I wake up, I'm thankful that I'm sober. I'm thankful for the life that my program and my sobriety has given me. And, you know, part of that was last night. I mean, I didn't go to the Monday night meeting with you and I both go to and part of that was because I was able go down and babysit my one year old grandson and stay for dinner with his mom and
dad. And while they went to appointment, they're expecting another baby.
Oh,
And
wow.
yeah, and it was, uh, it was fantastic, fantastic that I was able to get down there. And, you know, I spent like 4 hours with them just meeting him one on one time. So those are the things, the sobriety. Give me that, um, that I can't even quantify. You know, I can't. I can't tell you, like, how much they mean to me.
I feel the same way when I have time with my kids and can be present. They're great memories, even Yeah. if they're. They're small things. Right.
And that's kind of our topic tonight is and this was something that was very, very difficult for me when I first came into the program and got sober, which was bouncing through, having a family, having kids, especially if the kids are younger, especially if you have multiple kids, how you do this and still find time for the things you need to do and recovery.
Tough.
And I know you were kind of in that situation. You had kids. I don't know exactly the ages, especially when you first came in.
Yeah. Five and two.
Okay. So that was about what my kids were. Yeah.
Yeah. Five and two Wasn't easy for me. I struggled with that. Um, anybody who goes back, I don't know where it was. Uh, my story on this podcast, episode three or four, whatever that was. Um, but yeah, it's something I struggled with when I first came in because they were so young, because I was such an unproductive husband. I was an unproductive father during those years because all those years, those five years, what my son was born up to, the time I went in the room, that's
when I went in rooms in 95. He was born in 90. Those were my worst alcoholic years. Those were my worst drinking years. So, yeah, it was it was a tough struggle for me to balance that.
I stopped drinking about two days. And it wasn't about it was two days after my youngest was born. So she really hasn't been around me drinking. But that left, I think, a two year old. I think my other son was I don't know how old he was. He was in kindergarten, so maybe five or six. Right, Right. So these are these are real young kids. And I was going to a lot of meetings, so I ramped it up. I remember ramping up to a lot of meetings, but I was out of the house four or five, sometimes six Yeah.
nights a week. And my mom, my wife is putting babies to bed. That didn't go over well
No,
for a long time.
no, no. Really, really difficult. Although, you know, when I came in, um, yeah, you know, I had a pretty low bottom. You know, I sort of laughed and I said it wasn't that low, and it wasn't because I, you know, lived in a house and I wasn't homeless. And not a lot of the really bad stories. And I've always said, well, you know, if you really want to know what my bottom looked like, talk to my wives at the time, cause I went to two bottoms with two different wives. They'll tell
you what it was really like. And, um, but you're right. You know, the thing for me is that I think my wife was so relieved. Relieved that I wasn't drinking. She was doing so much of the heavy lifting. Anyway, that that it wasn't unusual. Typically, I was drinking and I was drinking in the house, and I would always find a reason of sort of semi self employed and I would find a reason to go out and work in the basement, work on my computer stuff. And so she did most of
the childcare stuff anyway. And so, you know, when I was at least when I was out meetings, she knew I wasn't downstairs drinking. And uh, yeah, it's not, it wasn't easy. It wasn't. It's something I struggled with because, you know, I've heard about it before. It is. It's, um, you know, early on it's a, it's a little bit of a of a dance. It's a little bit of a balancing scale schedule, if you will. And, uh, let's face it, the most important part and it's some, it's something that I struggle
with is your sobriety. Because let's face it, if, you know, if I wasn't sober than I was, I wasn't part of that whole relationship. I wasn't part of that whole deal. Like, I wasn't doing my share. I wasn't doing I was there and I would certainly do some kid stuff, but I wasn't there enough. And certainly by the time I got into the rooms, I'm sure my wife didn't trust me at all, you know? So it was difficult. It was a difficult time.
I will tell you what was a challenge for me, because not knowing anything about AA. So if you're new to the program, although Steve and I are part of a 12 step group, I'm not espousing one thing over another lots of different ways. The way I got sober was through a 12 step group, and I went to meetings and people encouraged
that. Here's part of the challenge, because I don't know if I had a lot of confidence back then to say no to things, but there are a lot of people in the program who will also push certain things, go to more meetings. You need to do this. You need to put your sobriety above everything. And sometimes you run into a lot of people who maybe either have kids who are grown or don't have a family at
all. And I always found that those people had a very difficult time understanding what I was going through, Yeah. Yeah.
and I'll tell you that too, because what would happen with me is, it's the same thing. And it's not that those people don't have good advice. It's not anything they might tell you isn't a good idea. But there is a difference. I mean, we do see that in this program. There are a lot of people who either don't have kids or or, you know, whatever, they weren't married or they're married. I don't know. They're different circumstances and they didn't understand. But that that hurt me. I mean, you
you survived that, right? You you came through that sort of almost exact same year. We were probably very close to the same age when you came in. And I came in the first time.
Yeah, I was 38. I think we Right. were. I think you said you were 38. I
I
was 38.
was, yeah. So we're the same age. Basically. You had one additional kid and you you went, you navigated it quite well. I did not. I mean, I just came in. I did my meetings. I quit drinking. and then I, you know, I told the story before, but then I really thought that what I was supposed to do was go back home and be a good husband and a good father. And I did. And, you know, I won't tell my story here, but I got away from meetings and it took me a long time, but
eventually I drank again. Okay, You've never done that because you've got you got involved differently than I got involved. And I and plus, I think we have different personalities, right? Uh, I still struggle, not as much today, but certainly back then too. I struggle with people telling me what to do. So if you told me I needed to go to five meetings of the week, I would more likely just go tell you to fuck off. Really? Like, Oh, screw you. You
Mm
don't
hmm.
know what? You don't know what I need, right? You're not me. You know, that was my attitude back then. So it's not so much that I know today that people who tell me things, even if I don't like to hear them, are usually telling me those things with the right with the right thing in mind. Right. The the the proper thing I hear I hear stuff I don't want to do all the time.
Mm.
And I don't take it personally or offensive or be have any offense to it anymore.
I will tell you what helped me is my sponsor was in a very similar situation to me. His kids were a little bit older, but not by much. So he was in a very similar situation. I was. I hung tight with people like you and John. So I would say people like John and and my sponsor were pretty influential. And John especially would focus on you have to be good to your family first.
Yeah There were there were some times going to Joe and Charlie where you sent me home, where something was going on at home. He's like, No, you don't have to be here tonight. Go home. That there was a group of people who kind of got that family environment who are in a similar situation of, yes, recovery comes first. You also have to balance out that you do have young kids and a wife at home and an early career and you have
to make some decisions. And if you have a question of what you think you should do, call somebody and ask for help. I was really good at surrounding myself with people who thought that way, but also had good sobriety. And I could listen to people give me direction in a meeting. There were also people who would tell me, Nope, you're not doing it right. You're only going five nights a week. You should be doing a 90 right and 90. right. And if you don't, you're going to you're going to drink again.
Yeah. And that pissed me off.
No,
I didn't
me
want to
too.
hear that.
Me too. It always pissed me like, you know, how many days do you drink A week and all that. All that kind of stuff. Right. And, and again, maybe it was decent advice, but I will tell you that when I first came in, just like you, I did a lot of meetings. I mean, I was out of the house just about every night. You know, once I got it, once I ramped it up like that in the beginning. In the beginning, I didn't know anything about AA
either. And I sort of sort of walked in there and and again, I wasn't yeah, I really don't want to be there. And, and that was the other thing. Like, I really, I the first time through I did not want to make any AA friends and I mean honestly I just did not want to was like I was willing to go to those meetings and hang out with you guys in order to not drink. But that was probably the extent of it. That was all the room I was going to give you at that point. Like, Oh,
I don't, I don't. These people are too weird. They're not like me. They don't understand me. You know, I went through a lot of that stuff early on, Um, but I went to a lot of meetings because I was really struggling.
And one of the things I did learn and I I've told this to my responses, especially early on in the first time and early on when I re after I relapsed and came back, is that I learned that when I got out of sorts, what I needed to do was go to a meeting and there was plenty of times that I would get in a fight with one of my wives or I'm married twice, either one, like I get in a fight with them and that what I would do after I would storm out of the house, I
would find the meeting. And the nice thing we've talked about, living where we live is there's always a meeting. There's always a meeting. I could drive to within within a couple of hours. Right. Like happening within a couple of hours or within a 45 minute drive. I can go find a meeting somewhere and that's what I did. That was my M.O., Like when I was really pissed off and I would go to a meeting and listen. Nobody ever told me to pipe down. I shouldn't say that. They certainly they did.
But for the most part, I always felt like I go to meeting and I can vent, you know, like I would be so pissed off and I'd vent about what's going on and how stupid my wife was and all those all those typical things that many alcoholics and people who are struggling. Do you know today I don't need to do that. But back then it's what I needed to do. And it's, you know, it helped me and a lot of people allowed me to do it. So, you know, I did I did what I needed
to do. And like I said, but the first time through, I struggle.
Give me a little bit of the why here. If people are new, they're not part of a 12 step program, could be sober, could be whatever. But you're your tradition is not in the 12 step world. What is it that people in the 12 step role will say to a newcomer, You have to go to a lot of meetings. How come?
Well, I think that I think people say that because they I think they realize that. I think they're afraid that if people get away from going to meetings and if they're not connected, if they're not in the program, that maybe they'll maybe they'll pick up and drink again. And that in order to sort of get yourself set in that
program. And again, you know, I can't argue with that, but I did a lot of stuff like if I look back, if I look back at everything I did and my first time through, I had a small group, wasn't a big group, but a small group of people who were very important to me. And I, you know, and I did all those things. I went to lots of meetings. I went to big book studies, I went to small group studies, four or five people at people's houses. I did a lot of good stuff, but I
wasn't totally engaged in it. I wasn't totally connected to it. So I think when people tell me that I've never been a big fan of you got to go to meetings every every day. I even knew even with newcomers, I mean, unless I really unless, unless I really like to have too much time on their hands, like if they're not working right, if you're if you're like, unemployed and you're in new in sobriety, you probably should go to meetings every day, right? Just so you have something to do.
But if you're working a full time job and you have to be there and you're trying to balance some type of life, then yeah, it'd be nice if you can go to a meeting every night. But just like you said, you know, I just think people say that because they're they're concerned. They want you to succeed and they feel like the more you get connected, the better off it'll be. And today, I know that's true. I tell I tell anybody that I work with that I you need to find your group of people. And it took me
years like I found John to. And I agree. John does have a big family, a family angle to sobriety. And he's always been that. And that's not true. Not true of some of my favorite people. And in AA, like, they don't have that same take on AA they'll tell you, Yeah, well you need to do this before. But, but today I could deal with both of those type people. And I didn't know John earlier. I didn't know John the first time I came in, I didn't meet him until the second
time through. And in even that was, you know, it was a couple of years in before I met him.
Yeah, John. John has a strong family background to the point of there's been some Joe and Charlie stuff that we have to skip this week. Why? Because I have a family thing. I'm traveling. MM. When I come back, Mary and I are going to do dinner. It has to be on Wednesday night. So let's figure out what we're going to do to work our way around it. right. But I also think that what I said there is part of it. It's not you're not going to do anything because of the family.
You're going to work around it. You work around the staff in AA, you work around the stuff in the family. So if something Yeah. comes up, it's a little bit of give and take. It's not 50, 50. Sometimes they will have to be 90%, sometimes the families 90%. Right. You don't want both to be 10%.
You know, you hit on something that I always talk about and that's the subject. One of the subjects that come up in AA meetings often is balance. And I chuckle at that because I always say, if you're new, there shouldn't first of all, there there shouldn't be a balance. Like you said, it's not a 5050, right? So it all depends on where you're at and when you knew. Certainly the big thing is you do have to pay attention really closely to your sobriety and there shouldn't be like, Oh,
I have to balance things. Nope, you have to pay attention to sobriety and but you also have to take care of home. So there is there is that type of of of walk with it. We're heading into this with Joe and Charlie. I told my wife and my wife knows it. And listen, my wife's not in the program right? Your wife's not in the program. She doesn't love the fact that I do as much
as I do sometimes. So I said to her just yesterday, I'm like, Honey, we're hitting that point now where I am going to be really booked over the next several months with AA stuff. So what I say to my wife today is let's make sure that we look at what we want to do. You know, now we record this podcast around 630 on a night. My wife loves to go to bed early, so but I told her I'm like, Listen, we'll be done with the podcast
by seven, 730 at the latest. If you want to watch a show, that's typically when we would start watching the show anyway. So I tell her like it really doesn't impact what we can do on a Tuesday or Wednesday night. You know, tomorrow's different. The more I leave, I'm gone the whole night because of Joe and Charlie. It's a long night for us,
And it's a long drive. It's a longer drive than it used to be.
right? And for me. Right. That's a 30 plus minute drive. I've got to get there a few minutes early, so, you know. Yeah. So it's an all night thing. I eat, eat dinner early, I leave, I come back and my wife's in bed, but I eat today. I know that. Okay, I'm going to be doing this. So I pay attention to making sure that I take care of some of that time. It's just my wife and I don't have kids anymore in the house, so it's like, okay, let's make sure we do something. So
tomorrow we will tomorrow. So we'll do something during the day. I do. You know, the ability to do that during the day and we'll go out and do a couple of things. And you know, tonight, if he's my wife's up to it. When I get done here, I'll see if she wants to watch a show. And, you know, so I watch I pay close attention to that today. And I will we I always say that I try to give my wife or anyone quality time. And last night I missed that meeting we're just
talking about. Right? Last night I missed that meeting because my son had asked me, hey, do you want to come down and and watch, you know, watch our grandson? And I said, Sure, I'd love to. you know, I love the fact that I'm able to do that and I'm able to do that because of this program. You know, I'm able to do that. And he wants me to do that, and I'm going to do it again in a couple of months to I mean, a couple of weeks, too.
And it's just a great way. And I could balance things out and matter of fact, I'm going to do it on a Wednesday and I've talk to you. So, hey, do you want to come back down Wednesday the 25th? And I'm like, Hey, I got a tight schedule in there. Like if I come down, I got to be out of there by 515 so I could be, you know, at John's house. And we talked about it and he's like, Yeah, I can, I can do that. We can make sure that that happens.
So I'm still able to do that, go down there and then also take care of the Joe and Charlie, which is part of my program.
The because I'm nervous about the drive whenever I have, I find that one of my triggers not trigger. But things in that crazy about is when I know I have something set in the schedule,
hmm.
I get that Sunday night blues from my job not because I don't like my job, but because I have to be up at a certain time and left to my own devices. I just want to do whatever I want to do whenever. And the whole idea of maybe a 30 minute drive to this place on the side of a mountain that John lives where I think it's about half hour off of pavement to get there because he lives Yeah. in the middle, absolutely middle of nowhere, Okay.
where we could get out of our car and it's a it's a more than 0% chance that a bear is going to kill us as soon as yeah, we get out of that car. yeah.
Right.
It
Yeah.
really Yeah. is. It's
Yeah.
out there a little bit. It's exactly.
No question about it that we could end up dead.
And that's the type of place he likes to live where, Yeah. you know, while we're humans are are encroaching on nature's order. That's
There.
that's where he likes to be. And I get nervous of Dan, That's a 30 minute drive. Yeah, And then it's several hours there and then right. another 30 minute drive home. Yeah. I get my own head with that, and then I start thinking something like a Joe. And Charlie comes once a year.
mm.
It's a few months one day, and it is a transfusion of plasma into my veins of sobriety. You pick it up a level, even just that one day because you're with the same group of a small group of guys every single week and you're diving deep into the book and you're sharing more than you would even at a meeting. And this is sobriety on steroids. So it is an investment in time. And I try to explain that to my wife. And she's at the point now her eyes are crossed of like, I don't care. Right.
You're making a bigger deal of this than I'm okay.
You know, it's interesting, you know, what else is and again we'll, you know, diverge into a little bit of Joe and Charlie talk here, but this is like, I mean this for me, the reason why this is so important to me, this is like an all star
game for me. Like when I go to this thing like that, the reason why I'm doing this, Joe and Charlie, is not because I need to go to the big book, although I love going to the big book is because there's a group of people in that meeting you, me, John, David, you know, Jimmy, like all these people
Tim.
that I lucked right in. Timmy just decided to join us. Like that was the icing on the cake for me to get. All. Those people in there. That is like you said, we'll walk out of there with, like, just huge, huge uplift and a boost of sobriety. And. And you really well, it's like it just puts your program on fire. And the truth is, right now, it really comes at a good time for me. It's like I do feel like my you know, my program is my
program. I don't want to say it's on autopilot, but I'm sort of in a in sort of a, you know, a program or a schedule of what I do. But the other thing I just did, I just became GCR for my Friday night group, you know, because I wanted to change and stuff up, you know, I wanted to do something different. So I took a service commitment. And that's the other thing I do right in this program. I took the service commitment, but that's another thing, right?
That's going to put me out of the house or on a zoom, you know, on a Zoom meeting
Those
once,
can be long
right?
depending
And that's okay.
on depending on if there are certain people who decide that they want to fight.
I
They
get
could be
it.
long.
I get it. And that doesn't bother me. It's once a month. I can handle that. And
Yeah,
again, as long as I'm on my schedule, I can plan around that. I could make sure that I take care of the things I need to take care of. And I go to there. So, um. But I love getting together. I love doing these. Your own Charlie's I, I haven't done one for a couple of years because of COVID, and, uh, it's, it's going to be nice to get back into it.
I was realizing that I'm like, Wow, this was before COVID. And I think part of this is the where I start to feel a little bit nervous is being at my house all the time. Our buddy, our Malina from the One Day at a Time podcast had a picture on Instagram yesterday where she's sitting in her car with with the resting list as resting bitch
face as you could ever see. And the caption was, I was told I have to go back to therapy because I have decided not to leave my house because of the pandemic for three years. Yeah. That just reading that her look on her faces, I got comfortable just being at home and not being around people. right. And I have to do something about that Yeah, and I don't want to. And that was my cue that I need to talk to somebody about this. yeah, But the look on her face was everything you needed to
know about it. I can yeah. identify with this puss that she had on her face.
And listen, you know, again, everybody has their own opinions, but, you know, like it or not like it, there's a lot of sick people out there and, well, you know, no matter how you want to believe it, um, I know we just got through it. The COVID stuff in this house in early December. And not only that, but just. Just your regular sickness, colds and coughs, and the flu is out there and everything's out there. And I don't you know, I
don't love that stuff. But I will tell you, like you as I you know, we've been we've been locked up for so long that I just I go out now, you know, I need to go to my meetings. Um, and even the and Charlie, which will make us all put us in close contact with a small group of people, but it's like, hey, I'll roll the dice and we'll, we'll do what we can do. Um, I, again, I agree that we need to get out there. We need to do stuff. You work from home? I work from home. Um, there's not a lot of
interaction. Like, we're not going into offices anymore, so it's really important that we, you know, interact with other human beings.
The only time I get in my car to go somewhere because I felt my tank like, I don't know, every four weeks, every Yeah. three weeks, All right. that is, to go to the gym, to go to my son's game, to, I don't know, the gas station, All right. the grocery Yeah. store.
Grocery store, right?
I'm in this chair that I'm in right now all the time
Uh,
I work here. And when I work here, I just put the microphone
I
to the side and I do something else.
do that. My my same set up here, right? My microphone sets aside. When we get done here, I unplug it, unplug it by headphones, and I move it out of the way. And it's the same thing. It's the same set up, same place I move. Um, you know, when I, when I come in to do my work in the day,
she kind of have to learn of. For me, it's been how do I learn to reenter in a way that I used to and get comfortable with reentering the way I used to. And I think that's part of the nerves here, is I haven't done a lot of this being out of the house, which was the norm. So it's not that big of a deal.
so. So Matt, I just want to sort of bring us back to this topic. Talk about your kids today. So you came in, your kids were young. They're about the same age, right? So
Mm hmm.
you've been in, what, 12 years? How long? 11. How many years?
Benign in March.
Nine. Nine years. Okay. Um, so your kids are nine years into this. How they how are they doing
They're doing pretty well. I have found that the kids are more engaged with me in a way that they weren't before. My ten year old daughter just came down with dinner. I wasn't planning on eating it here, but she thought enough of me to come down, bring
now?
dinner,
It's
bring me a drink. And as she walked away, she blew me a kiss.
nice.
Now, it was nine years ago, so that's a long time. But I don't remember them interacting. And it was a very gradual thing. And they are much more engaged with me now than they were before. The younger kids sometimes have a hard time with me going to meetings. I right. don't want you to leave. Yeah. And I learned to tell them I go to meetings so I can be a great dad. But you already are a great dad. right. I can continue to be a great dad Mm if I go to these meetings. hmm.
You know, it's interesting because I have we have some grandkids who live in New Jersey, and they come up and spend time with us. And a lot of times while they're here, I will go to a meeting. And just recently they've been inquiring about where Papa goes. And so it's going to be about time. The youngest is five and the oldest
the other is a matter of fact. I was ringing my phone with their dad and we're heading down there this weekend because they were sick with the flu, so we didn't get to have Christmas with them. So we're heading down and, uh, and I think it's like it's about time to probably talk about that, right? And let them know where where Papa goes and explain to them best we can at their level. Because, you know, it's interesting because I talk with
my kids often, right? Often. And we talk about, um, it was interesting. My, my daughter in law was up here and she's she has a high risk pregnancy going on. Everything's good, but she's she has a high risk pregnancy. And so they were up here over the weekend and I was talking with my son and we were doing something, and I found out later that my wife was talking to our daughter in law and asking her questions like only a woman could ask a mom. I only a mom
can ask a mom. And I was done with my son Monday and we were working on some I mean, yeah, Monday. And after dinner we were working on some shelving that he's doing in his basement and he said, Hey, I just wanna let you know that Sue asked his wife, um, how she was doing and what she said was, Oh, I'm fine. And my wife said, No, I want to know really how you're doing. And they had a talk about how she's doing. And I told my son, I said, You know something? That's a typical AA thing.
Oh,
Yeah.
yeah.
You know who does that? Jimmy? Does Jimmy does that all the time. Hey, how you doing? Oh, I'm fine. And he'll look at you. He'll stare you right in the eyes and go, What do you mean you're fine? Like he will question that that four four letter answer. Oh, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm okay.
Well,
You
he
know.
can pick up on that body language and he's so quiet and he's good with silence.
Right. And he will just ask you, like, I'm not kidding. Like, he will and he will make you think about, am I fine or am I not fine? Yeah, my wife just did that with our daughter in law, and he said she appreciated my daughter in law. I appreciated that, that somebody took the time to really inquire. And so I told my son, Well, that's what I do in my program, right? Like what Sue does now. See, this is the difference that comes naturally to my wife. You know, that's something I have to
learn. All right? And that's okay, too, because I do. I do. I'm able to do that today.
The other the thing about the people who I feel don't understand in the program who might be a little pissy, so there's a little bit around when you're around long enough you can kind of see. I have seen where other people have failed at this point. The other thing that you have to remember when you're talking with people who are in recovery, they were alcoholics in your already out. You're always an alcoholic All right?
and lousy alcoholic behavior is still there sometimes even when you're sober. So I've seen people in meetings bickering and we're arguing about this rule and stuff. And I sit there and ask, I'm like, Well, I thought these people are supposed to be sober. Why are they behaving this way? Well, they still got the alcoholic underneath the surface. And sometimes that comes out. So sometimes people don't know how to communicate it effectively and it comes out badly.
don't know that we're human beings, right?
Right.
And, you know, we don't you know, alcoholics aren't the only people who struggle with those things, right? You get into something that's emotional, whatever it is. A lot of people struggle with that. You know, we we have a different twist on it because a lot of times we would drink over those things. So those that that's a danger for us. But I look at it today as, yeah, we're just human beings and some of us, you know, have more character defects than others. So, yeah, I see that too.
We had just had that Friday night at our Friday night meeting. We have some we have some issues going on and we had a it became a heated discussion and and it didn't end well. It ended up it ended with a lot of people. It was funny. We ended up with a lot of people being pissed off. And my phone rang off the hook Saturday with people calling up. And I told I told my wife, I'm like, Oh my God, this phone is ringing today.
People talking about what's going on and how, you know, it's like, hey, you know, these are emotional things, right? People get connected to their program, to their meeting, to their bases, whatever the whatever it is. And when change starts to happen, people people struggle with it. And we're not again, alcoholics aren't the only ones who struggle with it. But you're right. You do look at some of these things and we've seen it where people at long term
sobriety seem to struggle. And sometimes we just question like, what's going on here? You know, why isn't there better communication than I'm seen?
Well, now it's your turn. We'd love to hear from you if you've got a family. If you're dealing with these issues, how do you balance out everything? And does balance exist if you're somebody who doesn't have a family and it's tough to empathize, how come it's tough to empathize? What would be your example you can reach out at Sober Friends? Parade.com where there's a link to the email and
to Instagram. And if you scroll to the bottom of the website, you can sign up for our newsletter, are going to tell you a little bit about the next upcoming episode, a sober article in the news, and some other stuff to keep you involved with the program. Steve, thanks for talking about this tonight.
Matt, My pleasure. I'm glad to join you. Um, yeah, I think I'm going to bring a big stick or something tomorrow because the rule is bear black fight back.
Yeah,
Bear Brown lay down. We don't have any brown bears around here, So if we get attacked by a bear at John's house tomorrow night, it's going to be a black bear. So we're going to fight back. So
I'm not
I'm gon prepared to fight tomorrow night.
rich. I would probably tell you we'll check the scat first and that's Yeah. how you can tell Yeah. for me. I'm not looking for color. Taste I see it, a bear. taste it. Yeah, If I see a bear, I'm going to behave one way, and that's probably run like hell. All right. All right. Thanks, Steve.
All right.
We'll see
We'll see
everybody
you, buddy.
next week, but everybody.