A teenage girl on the Upper West Side lamented that some boys offered to help carry her looted clothing and radios, but then ended up running off with them, so she was quoted saying, that's just not right. They shouldn't have done that. I love that.
Never trust a boy on the Upper West Side.
The looter got looted. There's some weird justice in that. I guess. Hello. I'm Ed Helms and this is Snaffoo, the podcast about history's greatest screw ups. My guest today is the amazing Desi Lydick, who has been absolutely crushing it on The Daily Show since twenty fifteen with her razor sharp, next level satire and just let's just be honest, brilliantly funny, insightful and fearless reporting across the board. You're so good at what you do, Desi, and I'm so
psyched you're here. Welcome to Snafoo.
Thanks for having me on. That is a way too kind, intro entirely too kind. No, I see your factual, but I really appreciate it.
Thank you.
This is very cool to be on with you because I was a regular, avid watcher of the Daily Show for many, many years. While you were on, and you're part of the reason why I wanted to be on The Daily Show, admiring your work and John's and Steve and Stephen and every Sam. It's just, yeah, this is very cool.
So thank you.
That is so sweet. Go on.
Yes, well, another thing that I specifically like about your performance? Yes, your everyman likability, your razor.
Okay, okay, okay, this is all get edited out, but I'm loving it. Yeah, so we do have the Daily Show in common. It's been I hate to say this, I'm but it's been almost twenty years since I worked there. Oh my god, it feels insane to me. But you are there now, and you've been there a bunch of years and ten.
Almost ten, which is just crazy too, so badass.
You guys are How is this transition? So when I was there, obviously John Stewart was the full time host, and I was sort of a part of a cadre of correspondence and we did focus mostly on field segments and then the studio pieces with John. But now, and that's kind of how you started too, writ with Trevor h Yes, definitely, at a certain point you transitioned into also part of this rotating host formula, which I just think is so cool and I think it's working so well.
What was that like? What was that transition?
Like crazy?
There was a period of time where we were kind of testing out some different ideas and we didn't really know what was going to happen and who the host
was going to be. And then it started to open up a little bit and I kind of threw my hat in the ring and put my hand up and said, hey, put me in coach before I could think about it too hard and just by some chance that they would consider me, And then this format came about and John came back to the show, and yeah, it was It was a little terrifying because you know, being a being a correspondent, it's not an easy job by any means, but you're you are, you're in character, you're so I
was very accustomed to being on the show as the character of the correspondent, and when you're hosting, you're basically yourself. So it was a it was a whole other type of type of work and like requires practice and giving it a shot, and so I didn't really know if I could do it. But the team here is so incredible it's a well oiled machine. Everyone had our backs and we all support one another. And we've got John who could not be a more exceptional leader, and watching
him every Monday is like a master class. So to get to try something new creatively and something so exciting and to get to look to him is it's beyond a dream come true.
I think comedians in general are how many people are trained or it's almost like an instinct or a reflex to look for snaffoos. Yeah, we're always kind of trying to look under the surface at kind of what's going wrong, and especially at a place like the Daily Show, like you're looking for what's going wrong in order to generate satire. I actually found that I loved it and it was like very invigorating. I felt like I was part of
a meaningful satirical voice at the show. But it kind of took a toll on me over a long period of time, focusing entirely on a little bit of the darker side of things. And I wonder if you've ever felt that or felt a sense of exasperation. Yeah, it can sort of like eat you a little bit. That's what I found.
Yeah, Yeah, well, Ed, I'm dead inside. So I feel nothing anymore. It is gone lost all sense of humanity. No, it is. It is taxing, It really is, and I think for me, I've kind of gone up and down on it. It's a bit of an emotional roller coaster, a mental roller coaster, because you're right, there's no escaping it. You can't just bury your head in the sand and be like, well, I'm just going to not pay attention
to the news today. But I will say I think some kind of action, even for us, even if it's just finding the comedy in it, even if it's just creative action, it feels good to do something and just talk about it, admit that it's happening in a room full of people who can kind of provide catharsis and support and we can talk it out with each other. And then also being forced to find the humor in it somewhere is my therapy. It is redeeming it really and especially this year.
Yeah, so the Daily Show is your therapist, is what you're saying?
It totally?
Is it? Totally? Is?
They should be billing me.
I'm sure I'll get an invoice in the mail I pay them to do the show.
Before we dive into today's snapho. What is a major snafo from your life?
Oh god, I have too many to choose from. I feel like I'm a snafu a day kind of person.
Sure.
We were just chatting right before we started here about old VHS tapes and it brought up this like humiliation, the snaffhoo that happened. When I was a kid. I was obsessed with Madonna. Like many young girls, I wanted to be Madonna. And I think I was maybe somewhere around eight. I probably wasn't allowed to watch MTV, but I was snaking it and Madonna had this performance. It was her MTV Video Music Awards. I think I must have been a rerun because I was like trying to
think of what the timeline was. But she performed like a virgin Oh yeah on stage, you remember, yeah, And she humped like humped the floor, crawled around, gyrated on the floor, and I was just I didn't know what any of it meant, but I was so mesmerized, and I knew that she was about to come on, and I grabbed a VHS tape and put it in the recorder. By the way, your young listeners are going to be like, what's the VHS?
What is she talking about?
So I throw a VHS in the machine and I hit record just really quickly. Oh no. And months later, my relatives come over and they go, oh, we should watch Tracy's graduation video. Oh yeah, you never got to see that, nanny, we should put that on. And it's Christmas time, and the whole family gathers around. There's like
eighteen of us and we're down in the basement. We huddle around the TV and we grabbed my cousin Tracy's graduation video and put it in and it's Madonna humping a floor and everyone looks to me like jazzy.
So I felt so terrible.
I'm imagining that like the It's like, right as the president of the school is announcing your cousin's name and they're about to walk up on stage, and then it's just like cut to.
Just the worst for Donna, just all hip thrust.
And the whole family's gathered around.
It was so humiliating.
I'm sure I got grounded for not only taping over my cousin's graduation but also watching something that was highly inappropriate for me at that time.
Today's snaffo is also kind of tech related. I want to take you into a truly insane historical snaffoo. It's a story that gets very dark, very fast. And I mean that in every sense literally, figuratively, socio, politically, and possibly even spiritually. Are you ready? Yes, it's July nineteen seventy seven in the big appital Baby. That's right, disco punk and rent you could actually afford. But it wasn't all Studio fifty four and Skyline dreams. The city was
a bit of a mess. Unemployment was at twelve percent. Subway fares had just doubled from twenty five cents to a whopping fifty cents. What is it now, it's like three dollars? Yeah, and thanks to budget cuts, city services were pretty much in the toilet. Libraries, schools, sanitation, even the NYPD had all taken major hits. Oh and just to spice things up, the Son of Sam was still on the loose. You're aware of that, all guy? Yeah, guy, that all creep. The serial killer who claimed a demon
was speaking to him through a barking dog. So yeah, it was a hell of a time in New York City. DESI, this was New York at one of its most sort of chaotic and volatile moments. But let's be real, the city's always pretty intense. Do you thrive on that intensity? Do you kind of find your own calm and the chaos? Like what kind of New Yorker are you?
Yeah, I've had to kind of thrive. I've had to adapt to it, that's for sure. But you know, if you watch Fox News, they will tell you that it is this sort of nineteen seventy seven version all day just a city of hell. It's just a walking nightmare.
I don't know.
Yes, it's intense and it's chaotic, but I love it. Yes, you have to be out in the middle of it. You have to interact with other people, good or bad. I was walking down the street with my dog the other day and I look over and there was just a guy selling my little ponies with a light bulb coming out the top, just thirty of them on the street. I thought, God, only in New York do you have this kind of quirkiness out out And he was making a killing.
People were buying him.
That's so funny because my only in New York story is like seeing people like defecating in the middle of Fifth Avenue.
Yeah, well there's that too. I'm sorry about that, by the way, I really had to go.
No, But I agree with you. I agree. I think there's there's like something super special about the intensity of New York and it kind of, I don't know, it makes me feel creative, inspired, and also just knowing the density of cultural history that has happened and transpired, like all of the incredible people that have lived and thrived in New York. It's just I just yeah, I love it.
I really miss it a magical place, even among all the defication and masturbation on the subway, it's really it's so special.
It is in spite of all that. Anyone who's ever been to New York City during the dead of summer knows that it is a particularly brutal time. But in nineteen seventy seven, it was next level brutal. The city was in the grip of a record heat wave, with temperatures hitting ninety seven degrees for nine straight days. So yeah, the concrete jungle is basically like a concrete oven. Now, I'm from Georgia, you're from Kentucky. We know a thing
or two about heat. But there's something uniquely punishing about New York City summer. Right, as much as we love New York like, it gets hard.
It's brutal because it's humid. It gets humid more so than you think, and the buildings really trap it all in, so you're just stuck in it and you can't escape into your air conditioned car very easily because you don't really drive in New York.
So can we talk about the smell? Can we talk a little bit about the smell. It's like the trash is just baking. It's like the trash cans are these little ovens that bake everything. And then of course anything any street runoff is like just cooking on the hot asphalt and rising into the humidity.
Cooking up a stew. A city.
Yeah, it's you're in there's even here where we film at The Daily Show in Lovely Hell's Kitchen. We're in between a subway restaurant which has the lovely aroma of baked bread, and on the other side are the horse stables, so it's just horse shit and a little bit of baked bread and then garbage, and you'reine smell from the dom park across the street. Summer over here gets real, real, interesting real quick.
It's funny how consistent that smell is, Like every summer, it's just the like, you know, like that's hot city smell and it's not good, but weirdly, I'm just gonna say it, it's kind of nostalgic. Now, it's like it's comforting. It's like fresh cut grass, like it brings back memories.
Maybe we should start in Aroma company, Like we should make a candle that has that New York summer smell, and we could. We could go out with it.
You would sell city summer funk.
The fun, City summer funk, the city.
Sun, City summer fun.
I think it would sell. I'm not gonna say like hot cakes.
I'm just throwing it out there.
I'll take it. Picture yourself in the middle of this heat wave throughout the Five Burrows. It's the summer seventy seven. And remember in the seventies people wore a lot of polyester, which is not exactly breathable or moisture wicking. So at this point you might be saying, wow, this is like pretty bleak already, and you'd be right. But we're just sitting the stage here. We haven't even gotten to the snaffo.
Yet I'm sweating a little bit, can you tell? Can you see I'm sweating?
Drink some water, stay hydrated, because here we go. Now it's July thirteenth, nineteen seventy seven. To quote the Love and Spoonful, it's hot time, summer in the city. And as the sun goes down, the sky starts to churn, thick, ominous clouds rolling in like they've got unfinished business. Storm's a bruin, and not just any storm, a monster electrical storm. At eight thirty seven PM, a massive bolt of lightning strikes the Buchanan South substation in Westchester County, tripping two
critical circuit breakers. This lightning strike, combined with a loose locking nut, and of course some delayed maintenance, prevented the breakers from resetting, cutting off a major power source. Minutes later, at eight fifty five pm, another lightning bolt strikes the sprain Brook substation in Yonkers, knocking out two more vital
transmission lines. The system, already strained, begins to falter. Operators at con Edison, the city's power provider, attempt to bring additional generators online, but some were actually unmanned, like there was nobody there and the others just failed to start remotely, So by nine to twenty four pm, the situation had deteriorated rapidly. The remaining power lines were overloaded, and the city's largest generator, Ravenswood Unit number three, nicknamed Big Alice,
show down to protect itself from damage. Minutes later, nine thirty six pm, the entire Coneedison system collapsed, plunging New York City into darkness, and thus began what would become known as the seventy seven Night of Terror.
What a perfect storm of a snaffoo, Just a series of mishaps, one right after the next.
There's always in these snaffoos, there's always a lot of human error. I mean these these obviously, like the lightning is insane. This was like a really exceptional electrical storm. But yeah, like there's always like somebody messing up. Not enough maintenance was done. There was a loose nut somewhere. Did you as a kid, did you like in the South were familiar with big lightning storms? Oh yeah, did you like a lightning storm? Oh it was kind of fun.
I mean I never liked having to come in from being outside playing because back in those days we played outside.
Kids played outside.
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Yes, the younger the younger generation doesn't get it.
We played outside the rainstorms, like even through like electrical storms. We didn't even we didn't care.
Our parents also so because in the South, a thunderstorm would last sometimes like three and a half minutes and then it would clear up.
You know.
We also had tornadoes. Did you have tornadoes?
We had very rare tornadoes. Did you did you like when the power went out?
I remember I was in I was actually in New York during Sandy, which was that was probably the closest to like the seventy seven blackout, but similar, I mean, yeah, And that was kind of that was terrifying. That was such an eerie feeling to look outside and for sure see darkness all the way down Bowery.
It was crazy.
Things were getting real spooky. Traffic lights stopped working all over the city, Subway trains stopped moving, streets and stores were pitch black all over town. At Shay Stadium, the Mets were losing two to one against the Cubs when the lights went out in the bottom of the sixth inning. Mets third basement Lenny Randall was up to bat and later said, I thought to myself, this is my last
at bat. God is coming for me. Can you imagine, like those lights are so bright right in those ballpark stadiums and they just a yeah, like blackout, that would be that must be jarring, terrifying. Yeah, there was a pretty big problem right away responding to the power routage. Many of the emergency personnel first responders, police officers, and firefighters lived outside of the city in New Jersey, and because of the blackout, they were unable to get into
the city. So things are about to go seriously off the rails here. But for the record, I was in NYC for the blackout of two thousand and three. No, that's not true. I was not actually in the city. I was on a daily show field Shute in two thousand and three. I was in Birmingham, Alabama, on a field shoot, and I was getting word that, like all my friends were in this blackout in New York City.
Was funny because all I heard were these great stories of like, oh, I met the love of my life, or I had this incredible one night stand, like I went I went out and had like, you know, some potato chips on my stoop and met these traveling musicians and we we traped around the city the serenading like that sounded like such a wonderful blackout. This this is about to go so so dark. Do you think New York City is a good place or a bad place for a disaster?
It's all the things, I think it really Yeah, I think there's capacity for all of it, because there's just so many different people in New York City and so many but like the state of the world certainly plays into that.
Definitely. That's huge, and that's gonna You're exactly right. The state of the world is a major factor. So this blackout happens, and at first the city holds its breath in the darkness. But around ten PM, just a half an hour after the lights went out, New Yorkers began to emerge, and it didn't take long for things to go from a sort of mild curiosity to completely spiraling out of control. Looting erupted across the city in neighborhoods
already strained by unemployment and economic hardship. To your point, the blackout was a catalyst for unrest. Over the next twenty five hours, more than sixteen hundred stores were damaged or destroyed. Arsonists set over one thousand fires, overwhelming the city's fire departments. Mostly it was a very dark time, no pun intended. But there are a few anecdotes that I dug up that revealed some dark irony. Here's what
I found in Time magazine. A teenage girl on the Upper West Side lamented that some boys offered to help carry her looted clothing and radios, but then ended up running off with them. So she was quoted saying, that's just not right. They shouldn't have done that. I love that.
Never trust a boy on the Upper West.
Side with your looted belongings, No, they will like the looter got looted. There's some weird justice in that, I guess. Does it freak you out how quickly like we just as a society we can just unravel in something like that.
Really, it is like it's just just the second some people have that opening. It's like now's my time, now's my time.
Yeah.
It goes from yeah, you're like lighting candles one minute and then it's just like full on purge vibes. Yeah.
I think if you're on the verge enough, if your needs aren't being met, for whatever reason, Like you know, if I was in a particular headspace, I might see an opening.
Go you know what I'm gonna Let's put these candles down, Let's go rob a bank.
Yeah. It's like I have had trouble making ends meet and getting enough groceries for my family for months. Now I'm going to the grocery store to just get as much as I can.
Like, now's my chance. Everyone else is doing it?
Sure well, So we were talking about other blackouts. Just twelve years before this blackout in nineteen sixty five, there was another one that was much bigger, affected twenty five million people compared to the one in seventy seven that only affected only affected nine million only. But during that sixty five blackout, City was totally calm, and historians think this is because NYC was simply more stable economically and socially. In nineteen sixty five, people treated that blackout like like
it was just a weird snow day. But in nineteen seventy seven the city was in full blown crisis, already high unemployment, crime, budget cuts, all of that, and of course the son of Sam just walking around. It's like, you don't know, sir Sam could be like, in a blackout, he could be right behind you.
Yeah, totally, totally, that guy was everywhere. Fear is a how full motivator? It really is. It can cause you to do some crazy things. Not that we would know anything about that today.
In any content. Politically, Yeah, I feel I thought that you were about to just sort of like unravel the tapestry of modern politics.
I'm like, are we in a metaphorical blackout now? Can we not see what's right in front of us? Or is that what's happening to us right now at this moment?
Do we feel like a metaphorical son of Sam is stalking all of us right now? How do you think New Yorkers today would would handle a blackout?
I was here during the pandemic the entire time. It was such a scary time, in such an awful time, and I vividly remember we open up our windows every night at seven pm and people stuck their pots and pans and banged on them to cheer on our healthcare workers and to have that moment just once a day, to hear New Yorkers come together and show some gratitude and appreciation for the real.
Heroes doing the hard work.
I mean, I like to think that New Yorkers, you know, would would do the right thing and come together. Yeah, but then they're the masturbators on the subway.
So I don't know. It could go either way.
Yeah, there's but you're speaking to sort of the resilient spirit of the city, which I also kind of appreciate and I think is always under there somewhere, and it's it's kind of worth rooting for that always. Anyway, twenty five hours later, when the lights finally flickered back on, the damage was staggering. Around forty five hundred arrests had been made, and the estimated cost of the blackout was three hundred and fifty million dollars, which is nearly two billion dollars today.
Oh my god, think of all the sub subway rides you could get with that.
I know, the lights may have only gone out for twenty five hours, but the blackout had a big effect on New York. That night brought national attention to some of the systemic issues plaguing NYC, economic and otherwise. Many citizens felt abandoned by their institutions with an absent and rundown police force, but the blackout also reinforced the wider narrative that New York was a declining city. It took businesses a while to recover, and voters were ready for change.
So in November of nineteen seventy seven, New York voters elected Ed Kotch as their new mayor. I think we have a photo of old Ed Kotch.
There he is.
He looks. I don't know where that when that photo was taken, like in his tenure as mayor or even as a candidate, But man, he looks just he looks worn out.
It's not going well, No, not going I mean that, is there.
Any harder job than mayor of New York City.
It's got to be the hardest job and the most I feel like the only job that is less appreciated is the job of being a mother. It's just, oh, no one, no one ever likes the mayor, no one everyone complains about the mayor.
The mayor is never doing It's just a thankless job.
But I would even say that just to compare the epic heroism of motherhood to any job is doing a disservice to mothers everywhere, especially especially to compare it.
To Ed Cotch. Just thankless, thankless.
Kotch had already served in Congress for five terms, and many people said he made them feel optimistic while the city was still reeling, lifting New York out of that seventies slump. Others say he balanced the city's budget, but mostly at the expense of low income communities. He began a moreprehensive public housing system, put over a billion dollars towards parks projects, and took Times Square from sleezy Central Plaza to a tourist mecca that is still bustling today.
To a sleezy tourist mecca exactly.
I don't think Kotch totally unsleezed it.
No, still some sleez on that old Times Square.
If I can never go to Times Square again, I am I am a happy woman. I will go anywhere else in New York. I have no interest in time. Just the just the bodies, just all the especially in the summertime, just the hot, hot bodies.
No. Also, the people walking around Times Square. They don't know how to do New York. They don't know how to walk fast and get out of the way. They don't know how to j walk properly, you know, lab bag.
They're stopping and going and then you have all the bright lights. Now it's all the screens, so people get distracted. It's very blatant, runner stimulating. It's too much.
The vultures descended on kan Ed and the aftermath of this blackout, looking for someone to blame for the night's chaos. In nineteen seventy eight, the lawsuit Cotch versus con Edison was filed. Though the case would drag out until nineteen eighty two, a court eventually ruled that con Ed's gross negligence was responsible for the big blackout. The Federal Power Commission also accused the company of not employing emergency measures
efficiently after the lightning strike. Con Ed's president bit back, saying that the events were quote so extraordinary that they went beyond the design and capability of the system, and that really nothing could have been done, But I'll leave that up to you to decide. Uh fun fact Ed Koch also made a cameo in Muppets Take Manhattan.
I loved that movie, right, That.
Was one of the gore. That's the one where Kermit the Frog was riding a bicycle in Central Park and you could see his frog legs peddling the bicycle and I'm still like had like how they do in this age of like crazy cinematic, you know, like crazy animation, Like, how the hell did they do that?
Oh my god? Oh that was such a good movie. I think that was my intro to New York City. Joan Rivers was in that movie. Oh what a great movie.
Amen. If you became mayor of New York City, does he like itch, what would you do? What's the first thing you would change?
I think I would make everyone who comes into New York City learn how to walk on the street. That's what I would do, a masterclass in walking.
It's sort of like to like there's a citizenship test, but for New York City, there's like a tourist test, Like you have to pass all these rules of etiquette of New York City etiquette, which is so different from like the rest of the world.
That's right. You got to keep your pace.
You have to have a healthy, healthy sense of boundaries between you and other people. If you're going to stop and look at your phone, you peel off, peel off to the side, off to the shoulder of the sidewalk.
If you breach New York City like pedestrian etiquette, you will get screamed at, and you better, you better just roll with it, because.
That's how ridicule, that's how it works. You take it, that's you take it. You get roasted to your face, and if you can't handle it, go to Jersey, Go to the Jersey. Go to Jersey.
You get yelled at New York City, you are you are legally required to forget about it. Forget about it, right. Sorry.
I think we could see we could fix New York.
I think we get we got we could have handled this black We'd be a.
Good team in that in that Mayor's office for sure.
Totally, totally Daisy light.
That is that is the blackout of seventy seven, the Night of terror. Any like macro takeaways here, reflections, ideas thoughts.
I think it's possible that we are having our own blackout moment right now metaph forally, not literally. But we're just not seeing anything right in front of us. That's what That's that's been my big AHA moment, like, oh, this is happening right now?
Where we what are facts?
What's even we're blind to what what's actually happening out in the world? What is what is reality?
Right now? It's I took an.
Edible before I started hearing it, So I'm no, no.
But I actually think that's really keen and savvy. This particular blackout happened at a time of unusual desperation among New Yorkers, and that led to some pretty terrible outcomes during the blackout. And I and I think it's a it's a really clean metaphor for this moment of like information overload and conspiracy theories, which are effectively a kind of blackout because they're blurring what's maybe like a real take a take on reality, like what's what's really happening?
You have fear as a huge motivator exactly, kind of clouding your vision. Yeah, and when people's needs aren't being met, that's when that's when people act out of desperation and bad things happen. And when you don't feel like you can trust your leaders to take care of you, or your government, or the economy is failing, you can't put food food.
On the table.
Yeah, it's it's it can be a scary time. Well, hopefully we aren't on the brink of that right now, but I don't know, we'll see maybe something like.
Any it's literally like any minute now. Yeah, any that's just like full Lord of the Flies.
I don't disagree.
I do think that there's just to kind of spin it back around. On the positive note, the you know, the city did emerge from this blackout, and as difficult of a chapter as it was, it is also a
testament to the resilience of the city. And I kind of feel like to your point about the broader metaphor this moment that we're in nationally, I hope is something that can as we sort of like push through the darkness and the sort of siloed information bubbles that we're all in, that that there is a kind of new cohesion that rises out of it, a new sense of community, like national community and national sort of how much we're
just interwoven and interdependent on one another. That that becomes that that becomes like a point of pride instead of like something to sort of shame and ridicule. I believe in New York City. I'm just I'm such a believer in the spirit of that city, and I'm a believer in our country. I'm still like this weird I'm just like this dorky patriot. I just love love our country, and I think we can. I think we can bring it around.
I do too. I do too.
I'm hopeful. I'm right there with you, amen. And I think it starts with our campaign for mayor of for co mayor.
You and me, baby and me, Hey, we go forget about it. That's our campaign's logan. Forget about it. You got troubles, forget about it, get about Bezie and Eddie are here all right, Besie Man, Thank you so so much. This was an absolute blast. Keep crushing it. You're doing great. Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffo Media, a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company.
Our post production studio is Gilded Audio. Our executive producers are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim Whitney, Donaldson, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley. Our creative executive it is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by the Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson.
Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Klein, and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry Lieberman, Nikki Etoor, Nathan O'towski, and Alex Corral. While I have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.