Hey, Snaffoo listeners, this is your host ed helms. I'm back in your feed for a bonus episode of snaffoo. Able Archer. At the very heart of it is a story about the nuclear conundrum, how the arms race left us with no winning options and an unacceptable margin for error, and no one summed this up better than the movie Wargames. You may recall back in previous episodes, we had great conversations with the movie star and National treasure Matthew Broderick,
as well as its director John Badam. Those interviews were so fun and cool, but we just couldn't include all of it in those earlier episodes. So as a little treat, here's a bonus episode where we dive a little deeper into all things wargames. What was what was just like a normal day in the life of Matthew Broderick around nineteen eighty two eighty three.
Well, let's see, eighty two. I would be graduating high school, which was in New York City, Yes, and I was very happy to be done with that, and I didn't want to go right to college. I remember going to a college counsel a counselor at school who was supposed to tell you what schools you should apply to, you know, when you're a junior or whatever. And I remember she kept mentioning colleges that I had never heard of, so that that was a bad sign.
Your guidance counselor didn't believe in you as well.
Say no, I left the meeting less than I was not. I thought to myself, I'm going to have to find something else because nothing that she mentioned not only were they at schools that I had heard of, but none of them specialized in anything that I was at all good at. So I was taking a year to kind of see if I could, you know, get a job or something acting. And that's why I knew that's what I wanted to do, but I had no idea if I would, you know, be somebody who could do that.
But so my memory of that time is is trying to basically become an actor.
What was the lead up to the sort of war games opportunity.
Well, I started in high school doing a bunch of plays and I felt I was good at it. Now why I felt that, I don't know, but I mean I was better at that than at many of my other endeavors in high school I'll put it that way, so same here. Yeah, I get it. It wasn't that I was good at it. It was that I wasn't as bad at that as I was at Algebra two.
There was nothing else to go after, really, that's the truth.
And I went to HB Studio, which was in the village it still is, I think, and I took classes, sure, and then my first girlfriend, and so I had a kind of a great summer. As I remember, I auditioned for everything. And you know, there was this movie called The Genius that I auditioned for that I wouldn't let me read the script, but it was a you know, a boy in a computer. And then I somehow got a callback and another callback, and then I read for the new casting director and then maybe even a third
casting director. The Genius became more games, by the way, this was its original title. Oh okay, yeah. And then somehow I got a play in New York, which was right, you know, very successful play, and suddenly that everything changed. Then it was like, oh, he's the guy from that play, you know everybody, and I got a Neil Simon movie out of that.
Mm hmm.
So while I was shooting the Neil Simon movie. They wanted me to read again for War Games, and I had now read for it, I don't know a million times.
And had you already read for the for the director at the time was Martin Bress. Martin Brest, Yeah, and you'd already read for him.
I had. So my dad, who was an actress, said ask the director, Herbert Ross, of the of the Neil Simon movie, ask if they can see some dailies. So I somehow had the nerve to ask my agent, and Herbert Ross, who was directing the Neil Simon movie, was like, sure, absolutely, and he ran. He picked out some nice scenes of mine and showed it to Marty Breast. You know, they screened it in those days. It wasn't like, you know, click on it. It was they came and watched it at you know, the studio.
Yeah, that's really cool. He really believed in.
You and made the effort, you know, and so you need all that.
Yeah, that's really cool.
Yeah.
And so so finally you get the part. Had you read the full script at this point or were you just reading sides or did you know a lot about what the movie was.
Around that time? I think I finally was allowed to read the whole thing. It was really a very fun read. You know, it was a you just really wanted to know how it was going to end up. You know. It wasn't the most like intense acting part or something, but I just thought, this is a thriller, you know. I loved the story. The only you know, my father was dying and actually died during it.
Wow.
Yeah, So I don't think of that movie without that.
Sure.
To tell you the truth, it's a little almost like a surreal memory to me because I was, on the one hand, so pleased with myself and you know, excited about what had happened to me, and also at the same time the absolute opposite. And you guys were close, very close, and you know, he'd been sick for I knew that it was coming. It wasn't like that, but
you know, there's no way to not. You know, he died during it, and I was shooting one or two days later, I think, wow, you know, I didn't really want anybody to say how are you or anything, and they and they didn't, you know, and we went on with I'm very glad I had it. It probably saved my life.
It's so fascinating. I was in I was shooting the office when my dad passed. Oh really and went back and it was the same thing. I was so grateful to have.
That something to put your mind on for a while, right.
Yeah, And so all the excitement of this first experience. He must have been so proud that you got this opportunity.
He was definitely so.
Then even the release of the movie is so bittersweet. Yeah, is not being there.
Yeah, definitely, you know, but I like to think he was glad to see that he had that he left while I had some hope of a career sure, or you know, make a living. And truthfully, it was such a break from that that I didn't feel it at work, you know. I just felt the movie. So I you know, I threw myself into it, and I love the story, you.
Know, Yeah, it really is. It's like kind of a perfect screenplay as a thriller with comedic elements, and there's never a wasted scene or a dull moment. Did it change a lot from those early drafts to what it eventually was?
It?
Did? I mean, are you talking to John Badam too?
In the summer of nineteen eighty two, I get a call from my agent at the time Lee Rosenberg, who said, there's this project over at United Artists that they're in trouble with the director, and they wonder if you would take a look at it. And I'm recommending that you don't take a look at it, because if they're in trouble with the director, that means the whole project is troubled. So you better stay away from it. But I have
to make the call and tell you about it. And I replied to him, I said, but Lee, what if the script is any good? So we read it and I'm going, oh my god, I am so lucky to be reading this script. This script is wonderful. I told that to Leonard and I said, let me think about it and I'll get back to you. He said, well, we're shooting every day, so you better be fast about this. So I started driving home and I got about three
blocks from MGM and I stomped on the brakes. Now this is before cell phones, and I had to find a phone booth. And I said, Leonard, I know what it is. These actors, these characters aren't having any fun. The scene that you showed me was Matthew Broderick showing Ali Sheety how he could change her grades at school on the school computer. These actors are playing it like they're going to blow up the White House, and instead, if I could change your girl's grades in my high school,
I would be peeing in my pants with excitement. This would be the most fun thing. I would be so thrilled and scared and excited about it. I said, I think that's where the director has gone off track. I mean, he was on schedule and from what I could what I could understand, everything had been beautifully prepared. But suddenly they were getting a very dark film. So I said, well, if I come on, that's that's what I would do. I would make make those alterations, make it, make it funny.
So they said, well, when can you start.
I couldn't believe I'd gotten the job. And then the director got fired. It was pretty sure I was out too, by.
The way, right, sure, there's no way that There's no way a director gets fired and the lead actor isn't like I probably wasn't doing the right thing either.
So wait a minute, they're throwing out two weeks of work I just did. That's interesting. And and you know, John Badam came and basically fired absolutely everybody but kept to me and Ali Cheety and one or two others. But he was our first meeting with John Badam. He was like, I'm going to keep both of you.
Well, that was a good choice, but I also wanted the ability to replace anybody that I thought maybe was not cast as best they could be, So we made a couple of changes in the secondary cast our general of Norad. We recast him and one or two other characters. But Ali Sheety and Matthew Broderick were wonderful. I mean they were terrific. For example, the scene that where Matthew takes her into his bedroom and shows her how it
can change the grade. We decided that we needed to reshoot that because, as we said earlier, they were not having any fun, and I knew that the scene needed to be much much better than what had been originally shot, not just a little bit better. And so we did a few takes and they were stiff as boards. These two poor actors were so scared that they too were going to be acted out of the movie and get fired. We're stiff as they could be, and so I'm starting
to try to loosen them up to entertain them. I'm running in. I'm making bad dad jokes, which is the only kind of oaks I know how to make, and being silly. And after about nine or ten takes, I called a halt to everything, and I said, okay, all right, we're going to take a little bit of a break here for a minute, and Matthew and Ally you come
with me. And I took them outside the stage at MGM, which is a wonderful big old movie lot, and I said, what we're going to do here is we're going to run around, have a race around the soundstage the outside, and the last person back has to sing a song in front of the crew. And they went what I said, Yeah, here we go. Okay, let's go, and we ran and ran and ran and ran, and of course I was
the last person back. I was a good twenty years older than them, and so now I had to sing a song in front of the crew, which was the dumbest song I could think of, which was something called The Happy Wanderer about a guy who's wandering through the Alps and going.
Hold it, hold it rop. Okay, Okay, we got through that. Okay, let's go for a take.
Those your grades stuff.
I don't think that I deserved it.
Do you.
You can't do that already done?
That was the one that we printed.
Uh.
Just you know, you do what you can to loosen people up and get them, get them there, and to let them know that it's okay to have fun. Uh. And and this is we're not curing cancer here, We're just making a movie.
The first day, first cup of date shooting with John Badam, I was like, he's so different than Martin Breast too.
Uh huh.
Martin Bess was very methody and actory, you know, and you should feel a certain way and get into it. And so now I'm doing a scene and I finished the scene, you know, doing something on the computer, and I hear a voice from from behind the camera. John Badam says, and smile, smile. Will you smile? Like he was telling me what face to me?
And you're like, that's not acting. Smile.
Martin Best never did that. But yeah, but sure enough I smiled. You know, I did everything, and thank god he kept me, he kept me around.
That's so funny. Do you That's that actually raises an interesting question separate from all this. Yeah, do you do you like a director who is very literal, like that, or do you prefer someone who's a little more kind of like in the emotion of it and in the sort of like, yeah, do you have a strong.
Preference, Well, you know, my preference is somebody who's like I can understand and who I think is good. I don't know how to but like, I don't mind people who I know you're not supposed to say smile, but if it's if it's somebody good and as John Batham is and and in a way that's they might as well just say it. Because I see directors sometimes bend over. I'm sure you feel this way too. Of course, you
know you can see their brain trying to say. I know, I'm not supposed to tell them to be angry or.
Happy or give them a line reading or exactly.
How many words can I use to make a line reading? Like just tell me the line ate.
Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying I'm very practical that way. And I tell directors sometimes like I can feel you dancing around, that's just tell me what you want, like, definitely, I love I love a mechanical direction like me too, like hold your arm higher, okay, sure, yeah.
Yeah, well then I can I can understand what they mean, and then I can I can turn it into actory terms if I want or not. Yeah, and see I even sometimes and this doesn't come up so well. But I'll sometimes tell a director who's really hemming and allying, why don't you show me which I like to make them feel horrible and uncomfortable and act this out for me. You play me, Yeah, I'll read the other part. You show me what you want. If they're being really irritating, I'll do that.
That's great.
At least I know exactly what they want, all right.
So the so the movie production is starting. Now it's you and Ali Sheety and this incredible cast Barry Corbin Dabney Coleman, who I love.
Yeah, and Ben Barry Corbman.
Yeah.
And they're both just it's like the cowboy and the nerd, and they're just they're such a perfect conflict.
I wouldn't trust this overgrown pile of microchips and if further like to throw it.
And I don't know if you want to trust the safety of our country to some silicombe dial In general, nobody is talking about and trusting the safety of the nation to a machine.
For God's sake, And what's compelling about those two characters that they is that they really represent two kind of competing points of view very literally in the story, but I think also kind of culturally, which is, do we trust technology or do we trust gut r and Dabney's Dabney Coleman is saying, let's trust Whopper the computer to to to launch missiles. And Barry Corbin is you know, chewing his redman chewing tobacco and saying, uh, no way, man,
guy can't take the human out of it. You gotta trust humans.
But they mess up at the beginning, right, that's in the missile silo.
Right, the humans mess up in the in the opening, Yeah, which is a wild entry to the film, and it sets the stage for like mistrusting humans.
Put your hand on the key, serve launch.
Sure, we are at locks.
Turn your keys. Sorry, We're so sorry. Turn your key, sir.
We've had men in these silos since before any of you were watching Howdy Doty.
For myself, I sleep pretty well at night.
No one knows boys are down there.
General, we all know they're fine, man, But in a nuclear war, we can't afford to have our missiles lying dormant. In those silos because those men refuse to turn the keys when the computers tell them to.
Turn your key.
Yeah, turn your key, that whole thing. I was watching the movie with my wife a couple of nights ago. She just goes, man, there were a lot of buttons in the eighties. It's true, walls buttons and like everything. It's like, okay, ignite or you know, uh, switch operation too.
Yeah, it's like thirty.
Buttons to do one thing. Yeah, there's some part of our inner child that just wants to click all those yeah buttons.
Yeah. Now it's just these damn touch screens.
I have one quibble with the movie that I just have to I have to mention, which is that you're very disappointingly bad at Galaga.
Now, I mean, you're okay, but you know, I understand.
I do.
I must in my defense tell you. You know, they edit it so like in yeah, pressure whatever, there wasn't enough film in the camera if I had played at my best, because.
Yeah, I guess so, okay, I'll take your work for it, but I will say, like to be able to work on a movie where the whole thing is like you're gonna get to play Galaga for free, for as long as we're shooting this scene.
They gave me a Gallica machine. I'm not kidding. Oh, Marty Brest was like, you should get good at Gallagha, we'll send one over. Oh wow, So my little apart men in Santa Monica had a Galaga in it.
Oh that's amazing, which I could.
I was so excited by that.
Yeah, that's that's huge.
So what are some of your memories about culture at that time, you know, in particular some of the political landscape afoot Reagan as president. How were you feeling any of.
The Cold War?
Well? I think everybody felt it a little when I remember, you know, Reagan saying he's going to put weapons in space and people saying that was going to get everybody killed, and.
That really pissed off the Russians.
Yes, so it was scary to read about all these you know, every time we would add a missile system, they would add one or and vice versa. And it was you could read articles that would say, there's absolutely no way this can end except for everybody being blown up pretty soon.
Yeah. Mutual destruction.
Yeah, mad right. I had a book with pictures that it called mad I think mutual assured destruction. And that book proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that we had about five years as a planet.
Ever since the nineteen sixties, I would say, even maybe the late nineteen fifties, we were seeing this constant build up of nuclear facilities and nuclear warheads. I remember I was in grammar school after World War Two, and we had, you know, constant drills for what would happen with nuclear explosions. You know, I'm sure you've heard the phrase duck and cover. You know, we're going to duck under our little third grader desks, and that was going to save us from
the nuclear bomb. And you knew that it was going to fly off the handle in some crazy way, but nobody was doing anything about it. And of course this is before Gorbachev took down the wall and so on. Basically, it was a scary kind of world where often your reaction was to, like the Ostrich, bury your head in the sand and just hope to hell it went away
without blowing up the planet. The military has thought up hundreds of different scenarios of possible ways that things could happen as they're trying to get around this problem of how do you make the right decision. It's just way too complicated a problem for us to be cleanly and easily dealing with.
Originally it had an ending where the bomb went off, I believe. Oh wow, Like I remember, there's some scene where I'm looking in a mirror. At the very end, I wake up. I'm home. It's all over, you know, And I get up and brushing my teeth or something, and there's a flash of light and all the skin burns off of my face or something. What yep, And then I wake up.
Oh okay.
So it's just a little nightmare that David Lightman had after going through this whole thing, right, which you know, wisely they when they edited, they were like, no, it's over in that war room.
Yeah, greetings, Professor Falcon, Hello, Joshua James.
Game.
The only winning mood is not today. It was the closest thing to an anti war message that we had because we didn't want to make it a big preachy movie. It was meant to be something that was very entertaining, but that could at the very end zing you with something that you go, oh, yes, yes, we.
Did want it to be a warning to some degree. Yeah, you know, everybody there was, like everybody else scared of nuclear war.
So yeah, it's such a backdrop for the whole thing. The air you're breathing was fear, yes, fear of technology, fear of nuclear annihilation, and this movie kind of like really hits both the technology and the weapons.
Definitely, And now that I think of it, some people were into disarmament and some were not, so we were. Everybody who made that movie, I think was very on the side of disarmament. You know, they wanted they wanted Reagan and GARBAGEV to make a deal. So if it has a political point of view, I'm sure it's that they everybody there wanted it to make deals with Russia and not just keep building weapons.
A great magic trick that way, because it's it's unbelievably entertaining and fun to watch, but it also, you know, from a sort of like commentary standpoint, allows you to play out the fantasy of nuclear annihilation and hopefully scare you a little bit or scare the political establishment a little bit into doing something.
When the film actually came out, it definitely had an influence, and thank goodness, it was a It was a big success at the box office. So we knew that our film was being seen by many, many people, and especially by an audience of young people who could identify with Matthew and ally remember the time that we're in nobody understood computers very much. Certainly adults did not. The kids were understanding it and we're getting it right away, and
the adults were thinking, well, that's stupid. No little kid could do this. There were many articles in different newspapers that said, this is complete, blowney, none of this could possibly happen, this is all ridiculous. That was part of the part of the drama and the humor of it. That it was not some evil Russian or evil Germanic force. God knows what it could be, but it was just
just a little kid being playful and playing without motive equipment. Well, the wonderful thing about movies is you can often look beyond what's possible, and sometimes sometimes you can be spot on with it and in seeing things that could happen in the future. Well, it wasn't more than a couple of weeks after the movie that was released. Uh, Suddenly, from I believe Minnesota, three guys broke into Norad or
they they broke into the Defense Department's computer. Our whole defense system was much more fragile and much more vulnerable than anybody wanted to announce. And here are young kids, maybe inspired by our movie or just maybe because they were out there all along, that they were actually, you know, breaking breaking into places. When Reagan came into office, we
had we had made the film. And one of the first things that he happened to do when he was in office was to run more games for He and Nancy at the at the White House one night, and and he started talking about how we how we could fight these nuclear problems with our Star Wars defense and he started talking about that, and they said, well, this is ridiculous. We don't have technology that would be anything
like that. He said, yes, we do. Nancy and I saw this film the other night, war Games, and they have that kind of technology. Well, Mommy and I were watching this movie, War Games, and we were thinking that we could do the same thing. Mommy was very happy about seeing it.
Are you aware that Ronald Reagan screened the movie right after it came out. No, this is an amazing story. The New York Times did a piece on this bunch of years ago. Ronald Reagan watched it just you know, kicking back with Nancy at Camp David, just watching a pop culture movie. It rattled him so badly that he called, in his defense establishment, all the you know, the big wigs into the White House, and he said, is this possible?
Is it possible that some rogue kid could or worse, like a Russian actor penetrate our computer systems and our missile systems and so forth. And the takeaway was, yeah, it's a little more possible than any of us would like to admit. And so that precipitated some of the very first cybersecurity policy, you know, from a national defense standpoint.
Well, that's very Yeah, you're welcome, everybody.
Right, Thank you, Thank you, Matthew. Special thanks to Matthew Broderick and John Batham for joining us to talk all things war games. Next week we have another bonus episode where I interview a Cold War cage be agent, So check back for that. You're not gonna want to miss it. Snap Who is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Papelka, Mike Falbo,
Andy Chuck, and Whitney Donaldson. Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis. Associate producer Tory Smith. This bonus episode was edited by Carl Nellis and Dustin Brown. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstadt.