BONUS: Inside the KGB with Jack Barsky

Hey, SNAFU listeners, this is your host ed helms back in your feed for another bonus episode.

This one is really really cool.

If you told me a year ago that I would be having a conversation with a former KGB agent, I would just tell you that you're cuckoo bananas, But it actually happened.

Now.

Over the course of our show, we got a healthy dose of espionage intrigue through our friends Oleg Gordievski and Rhiner Rupp, the two spies at the center of the Able Archer story. But the KGB had a whole network of operatives all over the world, each one on their own separate mission. One of those spies was a man named Jack Barski, who infiltrated the US in nineteen seventy eight, then eventually defected from Russia and became a US citizen. Just like our pals Oleg and Reiner, Jack's story is

You have an incredible story.

KGB spy here in the United States for about a decade.

So let's just.

Dive right in to your origin story. Tell me about growing up. Where exactly did you grow up?

Well, I was born was in the Soviet occupied part of Germany, very very poor, very rural. I was taken care of fundamentally. We had enough food, maybe fifty percent was potato based, but I can through ever having been hungry. And I didn't know that I was poor because everybody else was poor. Sure, so you got at Christmas time, you got a bunch of presents and there was only one that you really wanted. The rest of its was underwear and socks.

Wait a minute, Christmas time? Oh yeah, how did you have Christmas? There's no, you didn't but no one believed in God.

No, But but you see, Christmas also has a pagan tradition. Sure, and in the in the communist countries, that was the tradition that was kept I honestly had no idea that the rest of the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. I had no idea Jesus even existed.

That's yeah, that's pretty extreme.

Oh yeah, So you didn't get a lot of in your education growing up.

You weren't learning about other ideas.

They were teaching us the wisdom, and there was only one truth. There was science and math, and then there was ideology. And the ideology was treated as if it was a science. Marxism Leninism was considered a science equal to physics and chemistry and so forth.

Wow, that is fascinating.

If you grow into that kind of an environment, what are you going to do? You don't know anything else, There's no other no other opinions. The only thing that went across borders was shortwave radio. But we we didn't listen to shortwave talk. We listened to rock and roll.

Very cool. Do you remember any bands you were listening to at that time.

Initially it was a couple of singers Americans who sang in German, Gus Bacchus and Bill Ramsey. Huh Big Gala, pig Allasists the Mouse It Famen in Paris. That was that was Bill Ramsey. But one day I heard a band called the Beatles.

Yeah, they'll treat your life the Beatles.

And it doesn't matter how communists we were, so to speak, we all loved that music.

Oh wow, this is this is fascinating.

I wanted to talk about the pop culture that you were absorbing, not just Western things, but things coming out of the Soviet Union and East Germany, particularly movies. You know, the spy stories have always been such a rich part of cinematic storytelling, and so what were you seeing at the time and did you have a perception of, like, of the spy life.

Fundamentally there was this dichotomy. So we were listening primarily to music that came out of the West West Germany, in England and the United States. But the Communists art wasn't so bad. There were like some really good movies. There were inspirational stories, particularly when it came to espionage. There was a series that was called The Invisible a Visor.

Yeah, well, I think that there's a great appreciation creatively and artistically for so much of what was.

Coming out of the Soviet Union at that time.

So let's transition from some of these cultural considerations into you specifically. You're sort of working your way through school.

At what point does you know, an actual spy life start to coalesce for you?

Yeah, that that took a while. So elementary school, I was just playing along, you know, I didn't care much. And in high school I was still playing around, you know, but I became a little more ambitious and I managed to have nothing but a's on my last report card, and so that that allowed me to pretty much have my pick what university to go to a university as well. But he is a big butt. It's not because I

Yeah, okay, interesting, So you're kind of it's not just your intellect, it's sort of your your savvy.

Exactly, sort of street smarts. At one point in my third year, there was a national scholarship and I suggested that I be submitted, and the fellow who wrote the application, he showed it to me. I said, that's not going to work. I wrote, I wrote my own application, and I was awarded that scholarship, and that I believe got the KGB to pay attention to me.

That's it, that's what.

That was the sort of opening volley that put you on the KGB's radar.

I believe. So because you couldn't, like, if you want to work for the CIA, you could just like, you know, sure, contact them and.

Go online fill out an application.

There was no such thing. You could not contact the KGB. They came to me.

So you're you're clearly a sort of a desirable candidate. Oh yeah, and and and you think that's what actually put you on the KGB's radar.

What was your first point of contact?

So it was on a Saturday afternoon I was sitting in my dorm room and I get a knock on the door. So in comes of uh, a short man who was not likable even even just looking at him.

It was not James Bond, No, he was.

German, and and uh he said, hey are you I said, yes, I am. Oh, I just want to talk with you about your plans after you graduate. There was the dumbest cover story in that I've ever heard in my entire life, because in those days, when you when you were done, you were assigned.

Oh, you didn't get to just kind of pontificate about what you know.

No, no, no.

That's how this guy started the conversation. Yeah, so you knew right away this guy doesn't know what's up.

Yes, he pretended to be an employee of the the biggest company in town. But I thought he was German. I thought he was East German secret police Stazzi.

Okay, but aren't you nervous anyway?

No, no, not no, I mean I would think I would think a Stazzi knocking on your door might rattle anybody.

I have always been fearless interesting.

Okay, so that is a difference. That's a difference between you and me. I clearly have a more fearful constitution. And you you you're fearless.

Yeah, fearless.

Well, I'm afraid of my wife. But generally, generally I I have always done risky things that other people wouldn't do. So so this guy, you know, was lying to me, and we were talking a little bit for a while, and then after about ten fifteen minutes, he changed his tune. He says, you know what, I gotta confess. I'm not really from that company. I'm from the government, he said,

He didn't ask you to join the KGB, right.

Oh no, no, no, he's still sussing you out.

Yes. And the next meeting was in a restaurant, the most expensive restaurant in town, and he said, we're going to meet there. And when I get to the table, there was another fellow sitting there and this guy, who never introduced himself, said, by the way, this is herman. We're working with our Soviet comrades.

Wow, this is exciting. Right, yeah, you're oh yeah, you're.

In college and and the KGB is is taking you to a fancy restaurant.

Oh. The KGB was known to us as the most powerful organization on the planet. You know, there there was a KGB mythology and philosophically.

Right now, you're where where are you?

With regards to the Communist Party.

I was a member of the party. I was very active in the the youth organization at university.

And was this because it was just convenient to do that or were you a true believer?

I was a true believer.

True believer. Absolutely, So that makes the KGB super Oh my.

God, yes, wow, absolutely yeah.

And uh okay, so you meet with herman. Herman says, uh, that's let's let's meet again.

Oh okay, okay. So it's just lots of meetings.

It was a very slow ramp up. Initially I would meet with him in his car sort of at the edge of town. After some maybe three four months, he must have determined that I was a really good candidate.

Wow.

Was there anything in your recruitment that made you think they want me to be capable of extreme violence? Or you know that spying involved, you know, like scary altercations, weaponry and close quarters combat and all that sort of.

No, nothing, no, no, no. All the people that I worked with, both in East Germany and then during my time in Moscow were gentlemen. Our weapons were supposed to be our brains.

So let's talk about the training. What specific skills are you learning, what kinds of devices? Tradecraft is entering the picture here, you'd be surprised.

The very first document they gave me to read was a book about the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

Okay, just more doctrination.

Oh, you're bad. But with regard to tradecraft, we're starting out with a shortwave radio reception Morse code. And then I was taught how to produce secret writing. That is a skill. It isn't just something you just do. The KGB produced pieces of paper that were impregnant and pregnated with a just a trace of a chemical. The way to do this right, I had to be really, really careful. I had to make sure that everything was totally clean.

Oh wow, that's cool. So so you're getting some of these these skills. Was it surveillance detection or.

Something, Yes, Serven's detection route this is this is actually an internationally recognized abbreviation to the FBI uses it the same way. So this is what you do. Counterintelligence need to follow you when you were out and about, and so the idea was that you have to have a fictitious reason to go their department stores, going to a movie and buying a ticket and the whole idea. If counterintelligence follows you, they know that you're doing what you're doing. However,

The test was to figure out who was following you.

Yes, I won every time.

Oh nice, So you've you've got you've got some serious skills. Now you're you're getting training in Moscow. Let's move on to your placement. So you were born Albrecht Dietrich in East Germany. But to get to the United States, you needed an American identity.

How did all that go down?

Well, first of all, we had to have some documentation that allowed me to live in the United States. Right, There was only one paper that was important there. It was the birth certificate of Jack Barski, a child who passed away at the age of eleven. This this is what this is what the KGB used to steal identity, and this is what's still being used if possible.

Wow, Jack Barsky was a real There was like a birth record then and a birth certificate.

Yes, one of those diplomats and who worked in Washington, d c. Is he was wondering around the cemeteries and he found the Yeah, it toombs On right, and it says Jack Barski born nineteen forty four, passed away in nineteen fifty five.

And you want a child because then there's they don't have a life of.

Records in all of the evidence of that.

That's correct.

Wow, that's kind of dark.

And in those days. In those days, it was really easy to get a birth certificate. You didn't have to show why you weren't titled to get it. All you had to do is, you know, fill out a form and then pay the fee.

So active agents kind of procured your papers's and then you and then you had that to travel with. Right, So how did they decide? Did they have a conversation with you? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go?

Well, no, no, this was there was never a really well constructed plan. It was more of an idea. You know, you just go and then you do good things.

So basically the assignment is just go and be curious.

Go and find your way up in society. There was a master plan that if that had succeeded, I would

Oh that's nice, Oh what happened to This is a great plan and you get to be a millionaire.

Yeah, that's a hell of a plan.

Yeah, I failed. I was able to when I got to the United States with that birth certificate, I was able to get a Social Security card. I was able to get a driver's license, so I was functional in the United States. But the journey was really well planned except for the very last leg of the trip. The way I traveled, it was impossible to trace me back to Moscow. So from Moscow I took a plane. I went to Belgrade. From Belgrade, I took a train to Vienna,

Okay, And that gets you into in where Where where do you go from there?

From From Rome, I went to Mexico City, and Mexico City, I bought a ticket to my hometown to fly back to Toronto, with a stopover in Chicago. So they had me deep plane at O'Hare and that's when the trouble started. I mean I should I should have been busted right then and there because KGB had nobody there were no Soviet citizens in Chicago. Nobody knew about Chicago anything. Wow.

Okay, So when you first stepped off that plane at Chicago O'Hare and you're you're suddenly you're walking on American soil. Is that that must have been an incredible rush?

Yes, particularly once I got through customs and immigration. Yes. Yeah. But but before that it was like anxiety. Yeah, a lot of it.

Okay.

I would imagine, I mean I would be crippled with fear at this point, but you, being fearless, get through it.

Okay.

So you get to New York City eventually, I'm so curious. You know, we talked a little bit about your assignment, but like, what the hell are you doing day to day?

I had some tasks. There were a couple of times where they actually asked me to do something really important. One of them was to find an XKGB agent who who was actually an assassin who had defected and it was under a death sentence and they wanted me to find out where he is.

Did you find him?

Yes? I did?

WHOA and did they send someone after him?

They didn't, Thank god. It's another one of those movie scenes. I went to San Bernardino and they told me, see if he's still teaching at the University of California.

Assassin had gotten a job as a college professor.

Yes, well, yeah, he defected.

You know, still that's a pretty different skill set.

Well, you know, an assassin has to be really smart to get away with what they're doing, right, So yeah, So I'm walking up and down the hallways of the University of California Bernardino. The last door on the left, there's a nameplate that says Nikolai Kocklof. That's the guy I was looking for. And as I'm looking at this at this name played, the door opens and he comes out. This is this like delicious situation where an ex KGB agent who's under a death sentence is looking at a

Yeah right, yeah right.

I was also asked to operate as a spotter. You know, when the KGB had a methodology how to recruit people. First, you got a spotter, who looks who looks for talent.

So are you looking for people to flip Americans might work for the KGB. Okay, yes, So at the time, the Soviet Union has this this kind of research process called Operation Ryan. Just for the listener, Operation Ryan was this kind of insane thing where spies.

All over the world were asked.

To just give the Soviet Union confirmation that America was going to start nuclear war.

Basically, you are the first and only interviewer who knows exactly what that was. I didn't know at the time. I wasn't told there was an operation, but I was told to keep it periodically. Take a look at the Navy weapons station at the shore of New Jersey.

To just go look at it, or what.

Look at see if I if I see, if I see signs of preparation for war. Yes. I was also trained to recognize, based on a silhouette, what kind of ships are out there?

Oh wow?

And you know, I had no idea I was part of that program.

But you're reporting back on sort of what you're seeing as possible as possible war preparations.

I never saw anything out of the ordinary, and in fact, there was no preparation for war. But you know, the fellow who was in charge of the KGB at that time, Andropov, was absolutely certain that Ronald Reagan will push the button.

Okay, that's fascinating because there's controversy over whether and drop off actually believed Reagan wanted to start a nuclear war or if they just wanted us to think they believed that.

No. I believe my interaction with my handless in Moscow indicated to me that they were really afraid of Ronald Reagan. And there was some element of cultural misunderstanding because Reagan was a believing Christian and he sometimes quoted the Bible, particularly the Book of.

Relation, the scariest book of the Bible.

Right, So in a communist country, nobody had any kind of idea, particularly the ones and the decision makers. They didn't have context as to what when you quote the Bible, what that means. And clearly Ronald Reagan was not He didn't think he was appointed to accelerate the end of the world. But you know, Andropov in you know, the Central Committee of the party, they they were really afraid of this man.

They believed that Reagan wanted to end the world.

Is that what you're saying you wanted to start a war and the war would have been the end of the world.

Yes, well, of course, yeah, yeah, of course it would have been armageddon. But what how do you know that?

What signals were you getting that that? And drop Off really thought Reagan wanted to start a war.

Obviously I never had a conversation with un drop Off, but I had conversation with people that were in his organization and they were all like, deathly afraid of Ronald Reagan.

Wow. Wow, that is fascinating.

And are you aware of the able Archer eighty three military exercise that was happening.

I wasn't aware of it when it happened, but I know what you're talking about. During the Cold War, we became close three four times to a nuclear exchange, and every time it was based on a misunderstanding. And that is what I'm worried about right now, with Russia being on edge and you know their mistakes can be made, and you know, you have one mistaken launch, it's over.

So I want to back up a little bit. You had a few specific tasks, but you also had this kind of grand, larger.

Mission that was really up to you.

It sounds like how were you communicating with Moscow while you're in the United States? What were sort of your what were some of those tricks as a lone wolf.

Yeah, so if if you ever watched the Americans, there are a lot of scenes where the handler of the two illegals is meeting with them. That never happened. There was a hard rule that you do not meet and an illegal will not meet with another agent in the country where he operates. So so communication was it wasn't directed, was indirect. They they sent me the stuff whatever they

Right, And then to communicate back to Russia, what are you doing?

Secret writing? I had what they call convenience addresses. These were collaborators with a KGB in other countries, So I would write a letter as if I knew about them, I knew anything, so that I'm sorry, you know, you broke your leg or some like leg open text or and then I overlay this with some secret writing, and then I would mail this thing, and then it would they would know that this had to be handed over to the KGB agent.

That's wild, Okay.

So at some point during this process you decide you don't want to be a KGB agent anymore.

What happened?

Where was the ideological shift? Because now you're an American and you seem to like America a lot.

Yeah, well, it was a what I call a slow decontamination. The first thing that I realized was that capitalism isn't really as oppressive to the workers as I thought, because when I started working for MetLife as a programmer, it was a nice place and they treated us well, we got free lunch. Other than like you know, bad bosses and and and not very nice co workers. I couldn't find h institutional evil wasn't there. But when when I was signed from the KGB, I put in my letter explicitly,

Right, Sure, your job is inherently lonely as hell.

Yes, So I started dating, and I found a really pretty young woman who was safe because he had emigrats it from South America. If I had gotten close to and born America and they would have figured out something something odd about this guy, he wouldn't have known. Turns out that she had emigrated, but she was actually illegal. So I helped her to become legal.

Oh you know you married her?

I married her. And so in nineteen eighty seven my daughter was born. And you know this is I don't know you have you have any any girls?

I do have two girls.

Okay, don't you love him? Didn't you love him like crazy? When they grew up?

Well, they're still quite little.

And I will say, oh, it is a form of love that I never even contemplated before, exactly so deep, it is so profound.

And that is exactly what happened to me. I mean this this girl was and still is extremely pretty huge eyes, and I mean just like just beautiful. And when she was eighteen months old, the KGBS that sent me an urgent message that I should return to the Soviet Union because I was about to be arrested by the FBI. It was a red herring, it wasn't true, but they believed it. And obviously I should have believed it too, right, And.

You couldn't bring the child back to Rush now with you?

Oh no, no, no, no no. I kept the fact that I married this woman. Oh and I didn't tell.

You were keeping secrets from the kg Oh.

Wow, of course you.

Really are fearless. Your love for your daughter is what kept you in the United States. And explain to me why you don't just say I'll just keep being a spy in the United States. You actually want to leave the KGB at this point.

Well, well, they thought I was about to be arrested, so they wanted me back in the Soviet Union, and that that forced my hand, okay, because I had to tell them that I'm not coming, right so they wouldn't search for me. And so my last letter in secret writing stated the following, thank you for pointing that out. I'm I'm going to be careful, but I can't come because I have HIV AIDS.

WHOA you? But you didn't.

Of course I didn't.

And so once the case, once, once the KGB finds out that you have AIDS or that you've said you have AIDS, they're terrified. They don't want you back. Oh no, no way, And okay, so.

Now you're off the hook with the KGB.

But I did. I didn't know this. I was hoping for it, but I actually was one hundred percent because they went to my German family and told them that I that I already died.

Wow, so then they just forget about you.

They did, absolutely did. I spent about three months after I mailed that letter at being very cautious, careful, looking for FBI surveillance, looking for KGB. I was so well trained I knew that there was nothing happening. So I told the mother of this child, I said, okay, you know what we should start looking at moving into the suburbs and buying a house. That's when that was my first step to become an American. Wow.

All right, so a million questions, but The big one is you left the KGB. Eventually you actually became an American citizen. The FBI got in touch with you, and you became an open book to them. They then offer you citizenship. And here's my question. Once you became public, why isn't the KGB trying to kill you?

Now?

Well, first of all, my case is really old.

But you're still a liability.

I mean, you're you're telling these stories all about kind of Russian trade craft and all these things, and might add sometimes it seems that Russian assassinations aren't just about keeping someone quiet.

There's an element of vengeance there. Yes, why are you safe.

If they had a list of you know, priorities, I'm near the bottom.

Got it?

Okay, next question. It has been said that there is no such thing as a former KGB agent.

You are now.

Living your life very publicly and openly and transparently. But who's to say you're not still sending secret messages back to Russia. And I say it with a laugh, but it's a serious question.

Yeah. No, you you got to trust me.

Oh is that right? I just have to trust you?

Okay, all right, So here's the thing. When I was debriefed by the FBI, you know, and I dumped everything that I could possibly remember on them. The last thing they had me do is I had to pass a light detective test. I passed that test, and then I spent I don't know how many years, but to seven eight years as a trusted source. I flipped completely. I'm as anti communist as you can get.

What is Jack Barski's philosophy at this point? What have you learned from everything you've been through?

That question was asked of me several years ago, and I wasn't prepared. I had to think about it, but I came up with the best answer. It sounds a little bit hokey, but it's true. And this is what I'm telling you. Love conquers all. That's it.

That's it. Yeah, you know what. It does sound hokey, but it isn't It is very profound.

It's true. It's true. I lived it okay because I if I had not been in love with this little girl, I would have made the beeline to Moscow and East Germany and lived the good life, because at the time I had nothing but good things back there, and the love kept me here.

Well, I think that's a great place to wrap it up, and I cannot thank you enough for your generosity with your time and your wife and your story and sharing all of it, Jack Barski, I really really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

You're welcome, take care bybye.

Well there you.

I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. If you want to learn more about Jack's amazing life and his crazy story, check out his book Deep Undercover, My Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB.

Spy in America.

There's also a really cool podcast all about his life called The Agent. Definitely check that out. All right, This is your host Ed Helms signing off. Snapoo is a production of iHeartRadio, Film Nation Entertainment, and Pacific Electric Picture Company.

In association with Gilded Audio.

It's executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Pippelka, Mike Falbo, Andy Chug, and Whitney Donaldson. This bonus episode was produced and edited by Olivia Canny. Our lead producers are Sarah Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, Associate producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris.