From the brains behind Brains On, it's Smash Boom Best. The show for people with big opinions. Hi, I'm Molly Bloom, and this is Smash Boom Best, the show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today's debate is a showdown between two beloved stories, Matilda versus...
Alice in Wonderland. Author and Grim Grimmer Grimmest podcast host Adam Gidwitz is here to defend Roald Dahl's tale of brainpower and rebellion for Team Matilda. Kids who love books forever. And filmmaker and rapper June Sekia is here to sing the praises of Lewis Carroll's whimsical World of Wonder for Team Alice in Wonderland. Down, down the rabbit hole we go. Alice is here to steal the show.
And here to judge it all is Elsa from Minneapolis. Elsa loves being in speech at school in the humorous category, is going through a major Dolly Parton phase, and, check this out, has played both Matilda and Alice on... stage. Hi, Elsa. Hi, Molly. So, Elsa, you are truly the expert here. What do you love about Matilda and Alice? And what do you feel like you learned about them playing them on stage?
Yes, well, it's so fun to have a special connection with both of them. With Matilda, she really uses her knowledge as a power. I guess, to take her friends and everybody around her through this sort of journey of rebellion. And then Alice in Wonderland, what I really like is that she's in this whole other world and is experiencing all of these.
you know, kind of fantastical sort of experiences. So it's very cool. They're both very different yet very similar at the same time. What would you feel like is their main, like, similarity? That they're both very curious. They're both very curious and they both want to learn more and see what there is more to the world. And what about their, like, main differences? I think that Alice is more...
prim and proper. And Matilda is a bit more tough and wants to, you know, really learn and read. So I think that those are the major differences between the two. Do you have any advice for our debater today as an experienced judge? Good luck, and I wish both of you the best. So wonderful. Well, will Elsa side with Adam or June?
Only time will tell. But first, here are the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds. The Declaration of Greatness, the micro-round, the sneak attack, and the final six. After each round, our judge, Elsa, will award points to the team that impresses And vote for whichever team you want. you think one. Adam, June, and Elsa, are you ready? Yes! Let's do it. So ready. Okay, then it's time for the... Declaration of Greatness.
In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side. Then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We've left a coin, and Adam, you're up first. Tell us what makes Matilda such a... Thrilda. Matilda is easily one of the greatest stories of all time. It's about an extraordinary little girl who lives with two of the meanest, most ignorant parents ever. They refuse to get her books.
What's wrong with the telly, they want to know. So she starts sneaking out to the library, where she reads every single book in the children's section, and then moves on to grown-up books, like Great Expectations. By the time she starts school, she can do high school work, but the cruel principal, Miss Trunchbull, forces her to stay in first grade. Matilda is...
powerfully bored and furious at the injustices Miss Trunchbull visits upon her classmates. She is so bored, in fact, and so furious that one day something strange happens. And now, quite slowly... there began to creep over Matilda a most extraordinary and peculiar feeling. A sense of power was brewing in those eyes of hers. And all of a sudden, she found she was frightened by nobody in the world.
And that is when Matilda becomes a superhero. But before she becomes a hero, Matilda is just a kid who feels utterly powerless. A kid who's pushed aside by nearly every adult in her life? Here's just one example. Her father is a used car salesman who cheats his customers. When Matilda finds out, she is appalled.
But, Daddy, that's disgusting. You're cheating people who trust you. If you don't like it, then don't eat the food in this house. It's bought with the profits. It's dirty money. I hate it. Who the heck do you think you are? The Archbishop of Canterbury or something? Preaching to me about honesty? You're just an ignorant little squirt who hasn't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.
But Matilda won't be kept down for long, and she fights back with amazing pranks. Which brings me to the first reason why Matilda is so incredible. Even if this book were nothing more than a prank manual. The pranks alone would make it one of the most useful books of all time. From super gluing the inside of your dad's favorite hat just before he puts it on. What is this? My hat won't come off. Help!
Help! To putting your mom's hair dye in your dad's shampoo bottle. My hair! Holy moly! I'm platinum blonde! To putting a newt in your headmistress's drink. Any one of these pranks will get you in such deep trouble that you definitely should not try them at home. But they're good, aren't they? Soon, even the pranks aren't enough, though.
At school, the evil Miss Trunchbull uses her power and Olympic-level athletic ability to terrify students and teachers alike. And it's here that Matilda becomes a superhero. Her pent-up brilliance finally finds an outlet through her eyeballs. She can move objects with her eyes. And with this superpower... she begins a campaign to scare the Trunchbull so badly that she will ultimately flee town, freeing them all. You see, Matilda isn't just a brilliant and lovable girl.
She overcomes her mother, her father, and Miss Trunchbull to free herself and her whole school. She doesn't just accept her fate. She creates. her own destiny. But the story of Matilda isn't just her story. It's all of our stories. Now, we're not all geniuses who learn to read at the age of two. much less have so much unused brain power we learn to move things with our eyes but there have been times for all of us when we have felt unappreciated matilda's parents and the trunchbull
refuse to see that she's special, when nothing could be more obvious and plain to us, the readers. It makes us scream with rage and indignation how blind they are to the simple... kind, extraordinary specialness of this tiny girl. We have all felt like screaming with rage when someone has refused to see what is good and right and special about a situation.
or a person, or about us. Why don't the other kids like me at school? Why doesn't my teacher ever call me? When will my parents see what's really special about me instead of just finding things to criticize? Matilda is just an extreme example of how we all feel. And so her incredible triumph at the end is satisfying because it isn't just her victory. It is ours too.
Wow. A declaration of greatness about a girl who can move things with her mind. And Adam has moved us all with his words. Elsa, what's it out to you about Adam's declaration of greatness? Well, I love how he went through Matilda's journey of gaining her powers. And I could really envision everything when he was telling it. It was almost like I was there. And it really felt like a story, which was a really nice tie to Matilda.
Absolutely. Okay, June, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why Matilda is meh. You've got 30 seconds and your time starts now. Okay. So Adam talks about Matilda as a superhero, which I think is an interesting choice of words because to me, Matilda is a supervillain. That's how Roald Dahl was actually first trying to write Matilda as a...
character who uses her telekinetic powers to torment her parents and teachers. And if you look at the book, the seed of that is actually still there because as terrible as her parents are, she's essentially... teaching children that it's okay to fight fire with fire and time adam anything you'd like to say in return if fighting cruel and stupid adults with superpowers is wrong i don't want to be right
All right, June, it is your turn. Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command. Drop the beat. Ladies and gentlemen. esteemed judge of smash boom best i'd like to start with a few rhymes uh yo catch me in the rabbit hole dazzled by a magic show by the wonderland of standing up with alice yo
No competition, Matilda's just an average show. Now let me introduce you to our cast of characters. I mean characters, sorry I'm a bad rapper. But at least I'm not as tacky as the Mad Hatter. At his tea party crunch, he got a jam platter and a teacup. Now listen to the glass.
How about Tweedledum? Do I even need a pun? A synonym for silliness Relieving all your tedium With Tweedledee Have you ever met a match? Running out of time Haven't even got the Cheshire Cat A treasure stash of characters and fun jewels No dumb rules, no humdrum school. No punch pulled on punk fools like Crunchbull. Wonderland's munching on Matilda like Lunchables. Alice in Wonderland, ladies and gentlemen.
Ah, number one, on top, greatest of all time. Yeah, Scott. Woo! So look, wraps aside, I like the book, Matilda. It's funny, easy to read, and has one really memorable character. But Alice in Wonderland and all of its incredible characters are in another league. Why? Let's spill the tea. First, Alice in Wonderland is truly old school. It was written more than 150 years ago in 1865 when Abraham Lincoln was president.
and the height of fashion was wearing big skirts over literal steel cages. Back then, there weren't many books for kids, and the ones that did exist were often about lazy or disobedient kids being punished and learning their lesson. Enter Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Alice blew the door open for kids' books that were pure fun. If you haven't read it, the story is truly wild.
It's about a little girl named Alice who falls down a rabbit hole and enters a fantasy world called Wonderland. There, she meets all sorts of rude talking animals and has to escape a bloodthirsty queen. Reading Alice in Wonderland is like watching an ultra-lush IMAX movie. Enchanted mushrooms, giant blue caterpillars, croquet mallet clubs made of live flamingos. It's your wildest, weirdest dream scenarios brought to-
Oh, Tiger Lily, I wish you could talk. Well, of course I can talk. When there's anybody worth talking to. And can all the flowers talk? Oh, the daisies are the worst of all. It's enough to make one wither the way they go on. That's right. Alice has a conversation with a literal flower.
Seriously, there are so many strange and magical attractions packed in this story. Reading it is like going to a theme park. Which makes sense because Alice in Wonderland was one of the biggest inspirations for Walt Disney himself. When Walt was a young cartoonist just starting out, he moved to Los Angeles with only a single small suitcase. Inside was a short cartoon he'd made inspired by, you guessed it, Alice in Wonderland.
But Alice in Wonderland has inspired even more. From bands like The Beatles to movies like The Matrix to singers like Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift, Alice has influenced generations of art, music, and movies. And that's because you can interpret the story however you want. Ask 100 people what the story means and you'll get 100 different answers. Is it a story about how kids should grow up?
Or about how adults should grow down and be less serious? Is it an allegory about food? About the Queen of England? About language and logic? Yes to all of the above. You, the reader, get to choose your own adventure. Matilda is great, but in the end it's a pretty narrow story about the good guys beating the bad ones, which doesn't leave much room for interpretation.
And for that, you gotta give the edge to Wonderland, to the queen you love to hate, to Tweedledee and Tweedledum, to Mad Silly Fun and Cheshire Cat Grins. The tea has been spilt and there's no way to put it back in the pot. No punch pulled on punk fools like Trunchbull. Wonderland's munching on Matilda like Lunchables. A jam-packed and rap-packed argument there for Alice in Wonderland. Incredible. Elsa, what stood out to you about June's declaration of greatness? First of all, I loved the rap.
And how he used that to tell Alice's story. I loved how he described in great detail what Wonderland looks like. And it was awesome being able to hear how the story inspires and continues to inspire so many people. Like, especially, like... Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga. That was really nice to hear. Absolutely. Okay, Adam, it is time for your rebuttal. Tell us why thinking of Alice fills you with malice. You've got 30 seconds. And your time?
Starts now. First of all, Malice. Alice does not fill me with Malice. I love that book. But who is Alice? She's a character who... isn't really fleshed out at all. We don't really know much about her emotionally and it's therefore really hard to connect with her. The book ends up feeling a little bit more like a series of random puzzles and weird things.
But if the whole thing were wrapped by June, maybe I would change my vote to Alice. That's definitely possible. And time. June, do you have anything you'd like to say in response? Yeah, I think that's part of its strength because it allows the reader to put themselves into Alice's shoes and experience Wonderland for themselves. So I don't think that's a weakness at all, actually. Okay. Elsa, you've heard the arguments. Time to award some points.
Please give one point to the declaration of greatness you liked best and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument. Did one team's jokes make you giggle? Was another team's logic impeccable? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. Have you made your decision? Yes.
Excellent. June and Adam, how are you two feeling so far? I was feeling great until June started to rap. I was like, I have this in the bag. And then the rapping started and I was like, forget it. I'm a little nervous. I'm not going to lie. All right, it's time for a quick break. Devour a chapter of your latest book and get ready for a tea party. And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Best.
You're listening to State of Debate, home to raging rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation. Howdy-ho, Debaterinos. I'm Todd Douglas, and I'm here with the ranch to my celery sticks. Taylor Lincoln. you believe it? We just caught another logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are debate no-nos that make your argument so, so much weaker.
We just saw someone use the false dichotomy fallacy. That's when a person makes it seem like there are only two sides to an argument, even though there are many different sides. Check it out. Hey Jojo, do you want an apple? They're delicious. No thanks, I'm good. What, you just hate apples? Uh, that's not what I said. Well, either you like them or you don't. If you don't want this apple, well, you must really not like apples. Not true, Jenny.
I just had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and I'm still full. Just admit you hate apples, Jojo. Um, excuse me? That's a false dichotomy. Just because I don't want an apple right now doesn't necessarily mean I don't like them. I'm just too full. And there could be lots of other reasons I don't want an apple. Like...
Maybe I just brush my teeth. Or I only like Granny Smiths. Or maybe I'm allergic. Oh, whoopsie-daisy. My bad. Sorry for getting ahead of myself. This should be a fallacy-free friendship. No worries. Save me an apple for later. You got it. JoJo stopped that false dichotomy fallacy in its tracks. Right. Things are rarely black and white. There are usually lots of different sides to a story or an argument.
And in this case, many different sides to a snack. Speaking of, I've got a hankering for a Honeycrisp. Ooh, make that two tickets to Crunch Town. We'll catch you next time on State of Debate. Hey friends, Molly, Sandin, and Mark here with some very big news. Drumroll please. We're hitting the road in search of adventure, fresh air, and you. That's right.
We're going to be live at the Boulder Theater in Boulder, Colorado on Sunday, April 27th. Our science-themed live stage show takes the audience on an adventure through the brain, complete with magic tricks, dance moves, out-of-body experiences. mystery sounds and a game show. Molly, you almost left out the most important part. Yeah, Molly, don't forget the big party. Oh, right.
After the shows, we're throwing a brain-tastic bash. Join us afterward for a VIP party where we'll play games, guess mystery sounds, pose for photos, and give as many high fives as humanly possible. Snag a spot by purchasing a VIP pass when you buy. your show ticket. Oh, that reminds me. I've got to start training. These hands aren't going to high five by themselves. Good idea. And remember, Spots are limited, so grab your tickets today at BrainsOn.org slash events.
Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Smash Boom Best, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore. While I wash my nose mufflers and tummy togas, I'll listen to a new podcast. favorite history podcast. Whoa, I was not expecting that to work or for it to sound as good. That's the DJ Dolo technique. When I say pizza, you say bagel. Pizza. Zorp. Signal down. Stay right there, tummy togas. Must find forever.
Listen to Forever Ago wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to Smash Boom Best. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. And I'm your judge, Elsa. And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners. Take a listen to this playful debate idea from Rory. My name is Rory and I'm from Pella, Iowa. My debate idea... is Slinkies vs. Slap bracelets. Both bouncy, delightful, and nostalgic as heck. We'll check back in at the end of this episode to see which side Rory thinks should win.
And now it's back to our debate. Matilda versus Alice in Wonderland. That's right. And it's time for round two, the micro round. For the micro-round challenge, each team has prepared a creative response to a prompt they received in advance. For Adam and June, the prompt was, Batty Reputation. In this challenge, a villain from each side needs to...
clear their reputation. They want to set the record straight about how they're really not that bad. Will they redeem themselves? It's up to Elsa to decide. Adam went first last time so June you're up. Do your best to clear the reputation of a baddie. from Alice in Wonderland. Order, order in the court. We will now hear the arguments of the defendant.
Thank you, good sir. I, the Queen of Hearts, rightful sovereign of Wonderland, am accused of being a tyrant. While it's true I have a flair for ruthless rhetoric, I am above all a c- Community builder. Think of how disconnected we all live from each other. The caterpillar. On its mushroom. The Cheshire Cat in its tree. The Mad Hatter at his sad little tea party in the woods. Where would we be without my croquet games to bring us together?
Drifting apart, wrapped up in our own selfish little lives. And what do you say to the accusation that you randomly sentence people to death? Good sir. to point to your use of the word sentence, as there is a great difference between a death sentence and a death doing. One is a sentence and therefore just said. while the other is in action and therefore done. And if you consult the record, you will see that I have never done any death. That can't be right. By Jove.
Her rulings are never enforced. Action, that is the lack of it, speaks louder than words. I am afraid the defendant is right. The Queen of Hearts is... Innocent? Innocent? Are you calling me naive? Order! Order in the court! You dare command the queen? Off with your head! Wow. A shocking courtroom twist there. All right, Adam, it is your turn. Let's hear from a baddie in the world of Matilda. Well, it's gonna be another great day of swindling suckers out of their money.
I mean, selling quality used cars for fair prices. Oh, Harry Wormwood, you're cleverer than the whole lot of them put together, aren't you? You handsome devil. Right, now, where's that hair oil? Ah, here it is. Work it in with your fingertips, old boy. Make those black locks shine. Yes, you're handsome and clever and rich and a very good father, too. So why won't that nasty little pimple Matilda do as you say, blasted? You tear up one of her library books and she acts like you committed a crime.
You're just looking out for what's best for her. No one reads anymore. Watch more telly. That's what I say. And she tried to shame you for playing a few harmless tricks on your customers? How naive can she be? Everyone cheats and if they don't, they're getting cheated. It's a dog-eat-dog world and you're the biggest, toughest, handsomest dog out there, old boy.
Ugh, and all the thinking Matilda does. Who wants a kid who thinks? You know what they say about people who think too much? They've got their heads up there. Ah! What's wrong with my hair? Oh, my beautiful hair. It's platinum block. Matilda. Matilda is behind this. You bet your bottom dollar. Matilda! Matilda! Ah, poor Mr. Wormwood. Can't get through his daily ablutions without... Pranks.
Poor guy. Okay, Elsa, what did you like about Adam and June's micro rounds? For June's, I loved how the queen acted and how she claimed that she brought people together. And then for Adam's, I loved how Mr. Wormwood... was just talking to himself and kind of hyping himself up in a way. Yeah. I thought that was pretty funny. He's doing his, what do they call it? Like his morning, his affirmations. Affirmations. Yes, affirmations. He's doing his daily affirmations into the mirror.
All right. Please award a point, but don't tell us who it's going to. Have you made your decision? Yes. Fantastic. Then it's time for our third round, the super stealthy... Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's sneak attack is called by any other name. Let's say your story.
didn't have a name or that Matilda and Alice in Wonderland were not options for titles. We want you to come up with three alternative titles for your side. For example, if your challenge was for the movie Frozen, your alternative title might be Snow Sisters or Winter's Chilling Embrace or Don't Get Engaged to a Sketchy Prince You Met at a Party. Does all of this make sense? Yes. Yep. All right.
So we're going to start with Adam and we will take turns going back and forth. So Adam, let's hear your first alternate title for Matilda. Matilda Wormwood's infinite guide to the best pranks of all time. Excellent. All right, June, it is your turn. Let's hear your first alternate title for Alice in Wonderland. Supercolor Wonderworld. Nice. Love it. All right, Adam, your second alternative title, please. The Tragedy of the Trunchbull. Another, is that like a Wicked type tale where we are?
Rehabbing? Yeah, we get her side of it. All right, June, your turn again. Let's hear your second alternative title for Alice in Wonderland. Alice and the Queen who set off with her head. Love it. Very descriptive. Okay, Adam, let's hear your final title for Matilda. Power eyeballs. That's a number one bestseller right there. Come on, number one. How could you not want to pick up that book? Okay, June, what is your last alternative title for Alice in Wonderland? Annoying Talking Animals.
A tour. Did you say annoying talking animals tour? Yeah, a colon a tour. Wonderful. Again, another book that I would not be able to pass up. Okay, Elsa, please think about these excellent alternative titles and think about which side impressed you the most and please award your fourth point. Have you made your decision? Yes. Wow. Okay, then it's time for our final round. The final six.
In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. June, let's hear your six words for making people see the wonder of Alice in Wonderland. Wonder-filled seed of million worlds. Oh, very nice. All right, Adam, it's your turn. Please give us six words on the majesty of Matilda. Girl Genius Fighting Stupidity and Cruelty. Very nice. All right. Elsa, it is time to award a final point for this final six.
Are you ready to crown one team the smash boom best? Yes. Drum roll, please. And the winner is... Matilda! No! Woohoo! No! Thank you, Elsa. What was the moment that really decided it? What was your favorite part? Ooh, I think the micro round. That was really it for me. I thought it was really funny. It was all about hearing Mr. Wormwood brush his teeth, right? Yes.
The depiction of that, whoever, the fact that you guys actually found Mr. Wormwood and got him to brush his teeth into a mic was really unbelievable. I know. He nailed it. He didn't have a lot going on, so he helped us out. June is not only an incredible actor, but also an incredible researcher. I thought I knew about Alice in Wonderland, and I learned a lot more from his declaration of greatness. So it was an amazing job. Thank you.
So, Adam, going in, I was already so afraid because I listened to his previous smash boom best debates and he did not disappoint. He came with so many like witty angles on what made Matilda so great. And I just like I could tell how much he loved the. It came through in his declaration of greatness.
Well, excellent work to both of you. That is it for today's debate battle. Elsa crowned Matilda the Smash Boom Best, but what about you? Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won. Smash Boom Best is brought to you by... Brains On, and APM Studios. It's produced by me, Molly Bloom, Anna Weigel, and Aron Woldeselassi. We had engineering help from Derek Ramirez and Gary O'Keefe with sound design by Anna Weigel. Our editors are...
And we had production help from the rest of the Brains on Universe team. Joshua Ray, Rebecca Rand, and Mark Sanchez. Our executive producer is Beth Perlman, and the APM Studios executives in charge are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Our announcer is Marley Foyerworker Otto, and we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Dave.
Taylor Kaufman. Adam, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout out to today? Elsa for inspiring me from the very beginning with her love of Matilda. Oh, thank you. So nice. And how about you, June? Any special shout outs? I'm going to shout out my mom, my sister, and my dad just because I'm not often on radio. And then Elsa for having such a crazy life story with playing both of those characters. Like, probably the best person on the planet to judge.
This debate. And then Soman, my mentor who got me on. I tried to avenge you, Soman, and beat Adam, but I could not cut the mustard in the end, and I'm sorry. And how about you, Elsa? Any special thanks or shout-outs? Well, both of you, you both did an amazing job. My parents and all my friends at school. Before we go, let's check in and see who Rory thinks should win the Slinkies versus Slap Bracelets debate.
I think Flinkies would win because they have more than one purpose and they're more fun to play with. Smash Boom Best is a non-profit public radio program. If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any... And while you're at it, join SmartyPass for bonus episodes and ad-free versions of all four shows in the Brains On universe. We'll be back with a new smash boom best debate battle next week. Hamsters versus goldfish. Bye. Keep reading. Bye guys. Ta-ta.
Nailed it. No notes. The cherry on top. Nailed it.