Hey, Smash Boom Besties. Producer Anna Wegel here to tell you all about an extra special episode we're bringing you today from the awesome history podcast forever ago. You'll remember debater Joy Dolo from so many debates, including the spooky ghosts versus zombies and the hilarious Halloween candy grab bag. Turns out Joy also made an entire Forever Ago episode about her one true nemesis. Mayonnaise.
It's a super fun episode and we're so excited to share it with you. We'll be back next week with a brand new debate. Frankenstein's monster versus Frosty the snowman. Until then, enjoy this special episode of Forever Ago and thanks for listening. H-O-T-T-O-G-O. I don't think I like mayo. It makes me uncomfortable how much I despise mayo. You've got mayo.
Oh, doth mine ears deceive me? No, they doth not. I've got forever ago mail. Yes. I'll have to finish my very original anti-mayonnaise song later. Hmm, let's see. Oh, it's an email from a listener named Maya from San Diego, California. The subject line of the email is the history of mayo. This can't be right. Oh, I know. I'll text Maya and ask her in person. Whoa, that was fast. Hi, Joy.
Maya, tell me it isn't true. The history of Mayo? Why are you doing this to me? Listen, I know what you're thinking, but just hear me out. How about I read you my question? Okay, go ahead. Okay. I decided to send an idea for a podcast episode for forever ago. I chose this especially because it's Joy's worst nightmare, arch nemesis, and mortal enemy. Mayonnaise. I think Joy Dolo is super awesome. But I think the episode would be super amusing with all of Joy's disgusted reactions.
Who said I make disgusted noises? I used to love mayonnaise, but now I'm sort of low-key against it, so I think I would get Joy's okay. Also, if Joy Dolo didn't actually hate mayonnaise, and it was just to give Forever Go more character and humor, I will be completely and utterly... heartbroken. And I think every other Forever Go fan would be too. But thank you so much for listening to my idea.
Maya, I assure you, this is not an act. Ever since I was a kid, I've always despised mayo. The gunky texture, the sour taste, the smell of rotting... I get it. I get it. So can we do an episode about Mayo? You always say we should send in our episode ideas. I do, I do. And we never shy away from the hard stuff here at Forever Ago. Omg, omg, omg. Come on, Maya. Let's explore the history of... The history... The history of Mayo!
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo, and my co-host today is Maya from San Diego, California. Hi, Maya. Hi, Joy. Forever Ago is a non-profit public radio program. Which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support the show. You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, or buy our merch. The t-shirt has my face. Now, Maya, I would like to say I'm excited, but I'm not. In fact, I'm not sure I can go on. Literally.
Everyone knows Mayo and I are not BFFs. We're not even Fs. In fact, we're E's for enemies. I honestly don't know if I can do this episode. But Joy, you're an actor. I am. And you've done some tough roles. You've played fruit in a fruit salad, a tree in a forest. And I did not make a sound. Acting! So why not use your acting skills to get in the frame of mind of someone who likes mayo? Okay, fine. Someone who tolerates and is curious about mayo. Act.
Joy, act. Acting is about empathy, deeper understanding through imagination. Okay, fine. You talked me into it, Maya. Let me just do some quick warm-ups to get into character. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. Mayo is a cool condiment. My mama mixes mayo and mustard. My mama mixes mayo and mustard. Okay, okay, okay. Let's do it. You got this, Joy.
I'm Joy Dolo and I tolerate mayo and this is Maya which is just one letter different than the word mayo but we won't hold that against her so Maya, you used to like mayo. What was your favorite way to eat it? My dad makes all the food in the house. My mom makes lots of food too, but my dad makes like the authentic Lebanese food.
And he makes the authentic Lebanese cabbage salad. But also he, like, will, like, mix up his recipes a little bit. So he used to put mayo in the cabbage salad. And it's actually really good. I still kind of like it, but I used to also like mayo in my turkey sandwiches and stuff. I don't anymore. I also don't eat turkey because I'm vegetarian now. Why did you start to dislike it? Did it do something to you? Yes it did. It betrayed me.
Oh, no. I got sick of it. There are too many mayo sandwiches, and I'm like, I'm done with you, mayo. I just write it off. I hear you. That sounds very much like my story. Okay, so how would you describe mayo for someone who hasn't had it before? Okay. It depends on what... kind of mayo you have, but it's like an almost neutral sort of white, thickish cream, but it's a little bit sweet.
There's something about the texture and something about it that I just have never liked. But it's also like it's everywhere, right? Mayonnaise is a simple sauce made of a few key ingredients. Egg yolks. Some kind of oil. Some kind of acid, like lemon juice or vinegar. And sometimes seasoning, like maybe garlic or mustard. That's it. Because this recipe is so simple, it's been around for a long time. As long as these ingredients have existed, someone is probably mixing them together.
Emphasis on mixing. In order to get the consistency just right, you have to stir and stir and stir and stir, adding the oil and lemon juice a little bit at a time. But as far as historians can tell, the name mayonnaise wasn't used until about 200 to 300 years ago. Who came up with that name anyway? It sounds French.
Is it French for jiggly white sauce of my nightmares? The A's part of the word is definitely French. Yeah, it can mean comes from. But the mayo part of the name, no one can agree on where that part came from. That's because no one wants to take credit for it. Hey-oh! Can I get a high five? No? Nobody? One idea is that mayo is named after a city in Spain called Ma'on.
In Spanish, a sauce from there would be called salsa maonesa. Another idea is that the name comes from the French word manier, meaning to stir. Magnionese. Makes sense, since you have to stir it a lot to make it. Another is thought that it might come from the old French word moillou, which means egg yolk. Moillou-niz. Another contender since the egg yolk set it apart from other sauces.
And there's another theory that it's actually named after a French town called Bayonne. Bayonnaise. That's how I say mayonnaise when I have a cold. Please pass the bayonnaise away from me. But no matter the etymology or the origin of the word, mayonnaise is here to stay. It's eaten all over the world. Russia is the country that eats the most mayo, using it in salads with herring, beets, or potatoes.
And of all the condiments, for some reason, it's the most popular one in the U.S., which is absurd since mustard is right... It's so popular here that people have very real feelings about which brand of mayonnaise is best. Okay, as a passionate holder of mayonnaise opinions, I can't wait to hear about that. But first, I... need a break please so let's play
This is the game where we take three things from history and try to put them in order of which came first, second and most recent in time. Today's three things are gloopy things. Augustus Gloop from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. gloppy from the board game Candyland, and instant oatmeal.
Okay, Maya, which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history? Actually, first of all, have you seen Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? I have read the book and seen the movie. Augustus Gloop is the one who eats, like, a lot of chocolate, right? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Okay, so I know that's pretty old, because Road Doll is a classic, but the next one...
Instant oatmeal. I love instant oatmeal, but I cannot remember the last one you said. What was it? Oh, yeah, yeah. Gloppy from the board game Candyland. I'm going to go Augustus Gloop. Okay. Because I feel like... Rode Dahl did not get his inspiration from Candyland. I feel like I can't imagine Rode Dahl playing Candyland. And without those vibes going on, I can only imagine that.
He wasn't alive when Candyland was invented. Wait, actually, I didn't even think about the oatmeal. Oh, this is so hard. I'm going to say oatmeal first. Okay. Because I feel like... That could have been made with really simple ingredients. And we learned about in school about, like, the Neolithic period and agriculture. And I feel like...
Instant oatmeal is like really simple. And I feel like it's something that could have come really early. And then I'm going to go Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Augustus Gloop. And then I'm going to go Candyland. I never get these right. I'm so scared. Listen, those are some great guesses. I would actually guess that order too. So we have Instant Oatmeal, Augustus Gloop, and then Gloppy from Candyland? Yeah.
Okie dokie. We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode right after the credits. So stick around. Hey, Forever Ago friends. We love hearing from our listeners and we want to know what topic you would like to explore on the show. Is there an invention or time period you'd like to learn more about? Maya, what's something from history you're curious about? Etymology, definitely. Like, how?
language was invented yeah I feel like that would be really cool and writing but kind of writing without language the history of writing and language I love that idea listeners if you have a question about history record yourself asking your question and send it to us at foreverago.org contact. And while you're there, you can send us fan art, like maybe a picture of me eating a mustard heavy sandwich with a bunch of mustard on it.
Without any mayo, maybe? That's foreverago.org slash contact. And keep listening. Brains On Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever A Goal, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore! It's Alien Exercise Hour! Hiyah! Hoo-ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampolini, I'll listen to a new podcast. I'm going to try...
Smash Boom Best! The best debate podcast ever! Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command. Drop the beat! Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best, I'd like to start with a few rhymes. Catch me in the rabbit hole, dazzled by a magic show. Back here, podcast. Must listen to Smash Boom Best now. Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy. And I'm Maya. Today we're talking about mayo. Mayonnaise is tasty.
sauce made of egg yolks, oil, some kind of acid, and maybe some seasoning. We don't really know where the name came from, but it is stuck and spread all over the world. It's a spread that's spread. So for a long time, this sauce was made by hand, putting all the ingredients together and stirring them up. But now, instead of making it at home, most people buy it at the grocery store.
And people feel very strongly about which brand of mayo is the best. Yeah, arguments over mayo brands can get pretty intense. You've heard of WWE, World Wrestling Entertainment, where wrestlers like John Cena and The Rock take to the ring and wow audiences. Now, get ready for the WME, World Mayo Eaters, where top mayos take to the tongue and entice taste buds, stomachs, Get ready to rumble! Can you smell what Eugenia Duke is stirring?
It's mayonnaise. Eugenia Duke, inventor of Duke's mayonnaise. Queen of the South. During World War I, I started selling sandwiches to soldiers in training in South Carolina. They loved my sandwiches, but especially the mayo. So I started bottling it and selling it. Now my mayo whip is a premiere dip. Your mayo is too tangy. Richard Hellman, inventor of Hellman's mayonnaise, king of the Northeast, has entered the ring. I came to the US from Germany, ran a deli-
in New York City and started bottling and selling my very special mayonnaise around the same time as the Duchess over here. Hellman's is here to lay the smack down on your sandwiches. Too tangy? Too tangy? Well, your boring mayo is a main no. Boring? Tangy? You both clearly need a little sweetness from this cutie pie. Oh my, it's Japanese mayo inventor. To Ichiro Nakashima, this mayo matchup is now officially a battle royale. I first tasted mayonnaise while working in the US.
Then, around the same time as these two jokers, I started bottling my own special mayo in Japan. Kewpie. This sauce is boss. Kewpie? More like a poopy. Richard, bless your heart. You think your mayonnaise is better than his? I know it is. Why don't you call your mommy and ask for more umami? Which mayo maker will come out on top? We don't know. It's highly subjective. I decline to take part in this taste test, but I do love a good rivalry.
There are real differences between these mayos. QP uses rice vinegar, more egg yolks, and yeast extract, giving it that big savory flavor, aka umami, plus some tangy sweetness too. Dukes uses cider vinegar and doesn't add any sugar, making it the mayor of Tangytown. And Hellman's prides itself on its mildness and thick, creamy texture. Okay, so all these super popular mayo started being bottled around the same time, in the 1920s. What was going on then? Well, a bunch of stuff.
It became easier to make large amounts of things like sauces thanks to machines and factories. Plus, this was around the time when more people started living in cities. Right. They were on the go, working outside of their homes. They needed quick, portable food, like sandwiches. And you know you can't have a sandwich without a spread, like mayo. Um, I beg to differ.
Oh, Maya, I've tried so hard, and I've said the word mayonnaise so many times, but I just can't go on. I still don't like mayo, and I think I'm done talking about it. I have an idea. How about I call up our friend Francis Lam? Francis Lam? Charming and talented host of the Splendid Table podcast? Okay, I do love Francis. Me too. And the Splendid Table is a show...
all about food and cooking. So if anyone can help you understand the magic, or at least the merit, of mayo, it's him. Let's give him a call. Hello? Hi, Frances. It's Joy. And Maya. What? From the delightful and whimsical podcast forever ago? I love your show. Yes, we're calling because we need your help. Joy is not a fan of mayonnaise. So can you help us understand why it's useful? Is cake better when it's covered in frosting? Yes.
Okay, so how do you like to use mayonnaise? I like to use it every which way. I mean, the most obvious way, of course, is on the sandwich. But, you know, there are actually so many different ways to use it. So mayonnaise, as you probably know, is a pretty basic sauce. And I mean basic as in fundamental, not basic as in like, boy, you are so basic. So it's what we call in food nerd circles, an emulsion.
An emulsion is a sauce or a substance where oil and water have been made to mix. Maybe a little bit against their will, but they all kind of get along. So when you whisk the egg yolks in mayonnaise with a little lemon juice... And oil, what you're doing is the egg yolk kind of acts as a bond to keep the oil and water and the lemon juice blended together into a thick, beautiful sauce instead of like a greasy mess.
How are the different kinds of mayonnaise different, like Duke's versus Hellman's versus QP? Oh, okay. So you just mentioned my absolute favorites. So what makes those different mayonnaises different is basically...
how they flavor that sauce, whether they use more or less lemon juice or vinegar, or whether they add different spices to it. And in some cases, maybe a tiny touch of sugar. And in QP's case, a little bit of MSG. So QP, when you... you taste it sometimes they call it cheese mayonnaise because it has a richer flavor a deeper flavor almost like cheese that's because they've seasoned it with a little bit of msg to give it that depth so that's super delicious
I grew up with Hellman's, so I feel like Hellman's is kind of like the foundational mayonnaise. Like that's the mayonnaise upon which all mayonnaises are built. That's not actually the case, though. And if you grew up in the South, you might like Dukes more because that's a brand that's much more popular in the South. Kewpie sounds really good. I've never had it before, but if it's got like a cheese... I love cheese. I love cheese. And if you can tell me that...
This mayonnaise kind of tastes like cheese. Oh, we're turning you. You guys, you guys, mark it here in the history book. Joy Zolo has officially said that she thinks mayonnaise sounds delicious. She's open. I said it. I did not eat it. Would it help you to know, too, that Kewpie comes in a really cute bottle and has a really cute doll as the icon? And it has a star tip, so when you squeeze it out, it looks like a star.
does help i kind of feel like a sandwich is almost incomplete without it i love bread i love things that go in bread but i kind of feel like a sandwich needs a little bit of juice a little bit of slickness you know and the mayonnaise provides that perfectly I like butter on bread but butter in a sandwich is kind of I don't know it's like it doesn't feel right I want something to make
Make the things kind of slide a little bit. That sounds so delicious, doesn't it? I was catching your drift until you said, juice, and then you said, slide. Yeah, I guess I'm not doing myself any favors. I'm off the mayo train again. Yo, no, I lost her.
Instead of saying juiciness and slidiness, maybe I would say it offers richness and sauciness. Because that's the thing too, because the flavor of mayonnaise is oil, is the richness of oil, but it doesn't taste oily and greasy. Again, because of the magic. of emulsion. And because it's emulsified, it actually makes your tongue react to it differently. So it actually accepts the flavor of the oil in a way that's a little bit more...
clean and a little bit richer than, again, what it would taste like if you just put a spoonful of oil in your mouth, which even I think sounds extremely gross. Are there other really popular emulsions? creamy salad dressings are emulsions. Like ranch dressing is basically mayonnaise with a little bit of buttermilk and some seasonings. No, it's not. It's true. Joy! It is true. My world is changing. I love ranch.
I'm going to lose so many fans. So what's a possible recipe that Joy could try? I mean, other than... salad with ranch dressing or whatever that Joy could try that would show a more hidden use for mayonnaise. Oh, a hidden use for mayonnaise. Well, this I love because mayonnaise is usually, you know, turned into a sauce, turned into a condiment, you know, something like that, a salad dressing. Another famous emulsion that's a salad dressing is Caesar dressing.
which, again, is basically a mayonnaise. But a hidden use, this is actually one of my favorite kitchen hacks. So are you fans of grilled cheese? Yes. Yes. Okay, so what's the biggest problem when you make a grilled cheese? When the cheese gets cold and then it gets chewy. Okay, well, that's the problem with eating the grilled cheese. Not fast enough. But I feel like when you're making green cheese, if you put butter on the bread and then you start to fry the sandwich, it often gets burnt.
And you have all those like burnt spots and you're kind of be like, this is still delicious, I guess. If you use coat the bread with mayonnaise and fry it with the mayonnaise outside the bread instead of butter. Mayonnaise, because it doesn't have the milk solids, it doesn't burn nearly as easily. But it still has the ability to coat the bread, so you're not pouring oil on the bread to fry it. So that is a super hack for grilled cheese.
That's so cool. Oh, my gosh. I hope that the fans that are listening to this, they make the... the grilled cheese with the mayo and send pictures to forevergo.org slash contact. But you gave so many great points. I'm going to have to start hating something else. I just didn't understand mayonnaise. And Francis has really helped me understand just the different ways. that mayo is actually a part of my life. And isn't that...
The secret to existence on this world. Isn't that why we're here? The more we understand, the less we hate. Yes, different perspectives, you know, and I'm just learning so much. Thank you so much for joining us, Frances. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for the call.
Bye. mayo is a simple sauce made from a few ingredients and it's been around for a long time we don't know who made it first or where the name came from but it's become a super popular condiment all over the world several big mayo brands that we still eat today got their start in the 1920s. That's when people started working outside their homes and eating meals on the go like sandwiches.
Not everyone likes mayo. I don't. And that's okay. But there are some recipes that use it in an interesting way, like grilled cheese with ranch, which is secretly mostly mayo. I'm gonna go home and try it out. Just kidding, I hate mayo. This episode was written and produced by Molly Bloom and Nico Gonzalez-Whistler. Our editors are Sandin Totten and Shayla Farzan. Fact checking by Nico Gonzalez-Whistler. Engineering help from Josh Savage-O with sound design by...
We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team. Thank you. charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to George Kiriyama, Amy Bentley, and Erica Romero. And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our SmartyPath.
Okay, Maya, it's that time. Are you ready for the answers to First Things First? No, not really. I thought you had some really great... great ideas first you thought was instant oatmeal and second was augustus gloop from charlie and chocolate factory and third gloppy from the candyland board game yeah now i'm a little bit more confident just hearing it out loud you know It makes sense, right? I guess, yeah. All right. Drum roll, please. And so, Maya.
You. You're going to say that I got them right because you always do your sad voice when people get them right. I thought that was my happy voice. Oh, it was? Yeah. Oh. Just kidding. You got it right. Yeah, you got it right. I was going to do a sad voice. You got me, Maya. We know now, Joy. I'm sorry, but we know. After like three seasons of yours going, oh, oh, Maya. Oh, I'm so sorry.
whenever it's actually bad then you're like well you got two of them right like you're trying to make us feel better but when you're trying to make us feel sad We know that you're just doing it like JK. Maya, you are so on to me. You can't use that tactic anymore. Okay, Maya, you got them right. Let me tell you why they're right, Maya. So first was instant oatmeal in 1922. So before instant oatmeal, traditional steel-cut oats would have to be cooked.
for about 30 minutes before you could dig into a delicious bowl of oatmeal. And in 1922, Quaker Oat Company introduced quick cooking oats, which would only take five minutes. And so the Quaker Oat Company filed for a patent for instant oatmeal. in 1957, which would be ready in just two minutes. Hey, you want to hear something else awesome? Yeah. You got the second one right, too.
So Augustus Gloop, he made his appearance in the book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, written by Roe Dahl, and published in 1964. And in the book, he falls into a chocolate river, which is also... gloopy. And in an earlier draft of the book, the character was named Augustus Pottle. And gloop is much more fun to say, right? Gloop? Yeah.
Last and certainly not least is Gloppy, and that was invented in 1984. So the Candyland board game first came out in 1948 and was designed to entertain children who were in the hospital sick with polio. was a former teacher who was also in the hospital with polio and saw how bored the children were. And in the original version, it had familiar locations like the gumdrop forest and molasses swamp, but none of the goofy characters to accompany them.
they didn't come until 1984 when Gloppy, the resident of the Molasses Swamp, and other characters like Queen Frostine and Plumpy were introduced. Isn't that interesting? That's so cool. Yeah, I love that it was like an idea for kids that were like bored in the hospital. Yeah, it's so sweet. It's beautiful. So were you surprised by any of those answers? I was surprised that I got them right.
That's something. I'm surprised about how late instant oatmeal was. I'm like, I thought you would have been in like... 50 BCE. No, I'm joking. But like... Oh, but gonna be totally honest, real steel cut oats are a lot better than instant oatmeal. Maya, I agree with you. I know. I love steel-cut oats. I just take the time to make them because they're so much better. I don't take the time to make them. I take the time to make my dad make them. You've got a good plan.
All right, everybody. Join us next week for a new episode all about Bollywood movies. Thanks for listening.