Hey guys, I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. I just got here really out of breath. What's happening? We're gonna do a show. We're gonna pod the hell out of this. You fucking... Let's do it. Are you ready to pod? I don't know if I'm... Get the pod. Yeah, get the pod. Okay, let's get the pod. We have the cast. We're ready to pod. Okay, let me just... Get it? Guys, that's how the name came up. You put a cast. You put a cast. You put a cast. You put a cast. You put a cast.
You put a cast inside a small area, like a pod. Right. And then you speak. Yeah. It makes a podcast. Yeah, you cast the pod. That's how it's... So anyway, I'm gonna show you how it works. Here we go. Okay. Welcome to SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. SmartSmart. Well, I've never seen your hair so flat. I know I said, but you just... Did you have a hat on? There it is. Are you late because you were out of flattening?
Yeah, I just had to get my hair ironed and I can never book this guy. Because for a while you were crimping it, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, it was fun. I was using it. Crimper. Yeah. Do you guys remember... Scrunchies? I sure do. Scrunchies and leg warmers. Oh, yes. I used to wear my socks as leg warmers. Yeah. It should be the title of your... There it is of your autobiography, Jay. Scrunchies and leg warmers. The one with the baby and story.
And then what was the things called where you'd strap on weights to your wrist? Oh, whoa. The... The... The little heavy hands walkers. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't remember that. It's a whole... Jayson, I asked you this before, how in the world can you handle the heat that you've been doing for a long, outside playing golf every day? I can't even handle it walking to physical therapy. You have to accept the fact that you're going to be wet and gross and sweaty and then go forward from there.
I don't like getting hot when you're not supposed to get hot, you know, when you're not supposed to sweat. Moving stuff, like if you're moving furniture. Or how about acting in a scene that's supposed to be in the winter, but you're outside and it's shooting it in the summer and it's supposed to be sweating your heavy clothes. Or... Yeah. It's like being stuck in a hot car with the windows that can't roll down and someone's giving you a haircut. Like, that's...
To me, that's the biggest nightmare I could ever imagine. Because the hair is sticks to your skin, you mean? Yeah, a dry haircut in a hot car with the windows broken. A dry haircut. But in the world, made you think of that. That's so funny. Oh, I know. Hey, you know what? By the way, when I asked you this, I just came back from Stey bars. I had my little tuna sushi. And I'm standing... Literally just five minutes ago. And I'm standing there. And somebody goes, excuse me, are you online?
I go, no, I'm in line. I'm not online. You know, people say online? Yeah, I know. How old is this person? Pretty old. Yeah. Yeah, this is what happens. But do you say online or in line? I was like, who says online? I say, I'm... Oh. You're standing in line. If I'm waiting to buy groceries, I'm in line. Yes, exactly. If I'm, you know, logging into my hotmail account, I'm online. Online? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, so, and in Canada, they say, a lineup. You say, there's a huge lineup.
Instead of a huge lineup. And the grocery store? Yeah. They'll say, yeah, there's a huge lineup. They'll say lineup up. I know. So, whatever. I don't know. I didn't understand online. So maybe some people get to say, like, are you online up? Okay. Maybe not. Well, we've lost all of our listeners before the guest. All right, let's get to it. You know how I love tough cookies. Today I got a tough cookie who's super soft and squishing on the inside. Full of love. I love this person.
She's a super smarty. She's known for having her finger in the pulse of what's next in the tech world. She's also a podcast pioneer. I've actually heard her take credit for this one. Oh, my God. I love this one. I'm really glad you're this one. She's been a friend for quite a while. Most interviews she does in Aviator sunglasses. Let's see if she has been a month today. It's the host of on with Cara Swisher and coast of the pivot podcast. My brilliant friend. Oh, Cara Swisher.
Hi. Thank you so much for. I had a suffer. I had a suffer. You had a suffer through that. That was exciting. The online thing. Well, oh, there's your Biden's. You put him on the Biden's on. I was before Biden. Joe, do you hear that? Yeah. Sure he's listening. I didn't know what it didn't I say will you clowned me during the interview with Biden and I what didn't I call his wife by her first name? Yeah, you should. Right? It's Dr. Biden. Dr. Biden. Jill. Right.
Yeah, you just said Jill. Are we saying Joe and Jill? Yeah, like I'm boys with. Yeah, and Jill. Cara, thank you so much for saying yes. Yeah. The rude Sean for canceling on you on the road. I know I was in your HBO thing. I haven't watched that yet, but I heard you should be full protest. It's fine. It's fine. I am. Who did you replace with that Damon or something like that? That day. That day. Yeah. Yeah. Whose career is over now. It's over. Out of the business. It was a waste.
It's a disaster for him. Yeah. No, we had a. It's okay. I could give a fuck. But okay. That's what Sean said. You'd say. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask you if you were nervous to be on a day, but clearly you're not. I'm like 10 podcats in this morning and I'm talking for a Chris Christie interview. So I'm really fine. Wait, you just did you interview Chris? No, it's the Monday Monday or Tuesday. Something like that. How do you prep for a Chris Christie interview?
Now, I'm a I'm a die hard Democrat, but I don't mind listening to him speak sometimes. He really can frame a position. Yeah. When he's attacking when he's attacking people in his own party, he's, you know, he's. Yes. It's like a symphony. Yeah. And I think that's the issue is that do you forgive him for his stress passes kind of thing? And I think a lot of people don't want to because he really was down with Trump for a very long time until try to kill him with a COVID.
And so like what happened? Like that kind of thing. And of course, there's the bridge gate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was real. You know, but he's a great. He was a prosecutor and a new. Right. And there's also. And there was also the the close beach gate as well. The beach gate. That was a nice thing. Yeah. Yeah. And you tell him. Yeah. He was on a beach by himself. There were all these pictures. And that it became an internet meme, which was my favorite part of it. Because.
And here's why it's because he was using the New Jersey governor's summer beach house, right? They have one. And he had closed as governor. He had closed all the state beaches for various reasons. I think for maybe because it was COVID. Yeah. Was it COVID? Yeah. It was a COVID. Yeah. It was trash. The virus like a two foot swell. Like sand. And that was the first time. That was the first time we ever saw a politician be a hypocrite. It was astonishing. It was astonishing. And then people.
But it's called the Jersey Shore. Just remember it's the shore. We know there's no beach in Jersey. It's a Jersey shore. It's a Jersey Shore. Sure, sure, sure. That's fair enough. But he did wash up there. I mean, there were a lot of obviously comparisons that were made to. Yeah. Well, and yeah. Oh, God. I was waiting for someone to take this the softball. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, it was. We didn't. So we didn't know. You brushed against it. And then you hit the ball. No, it was just a foul.
Just a just a. Carried well. You had you just do podcasts after podcast. Yeah, I do. I do. And how do you you still love to do it? I love it. I started about 10 years ago. Are you not podcasted out? No, I think you guys are doing great. Are you going to get into radio eventually? No, no, no, no. I actually know. No, no, it's it's a dying medium. No, I actually went to Bob Pittman who runs I Heart Radio when I had this idea. And he sat me down. I've known him since he covered AOL.
I wrote a couple books on AOL. He was one of the characters in the book. And he goes, Cara, podcasting is a dead end. You shouldn't do it. I was like, oh, yeah, Bob Pittman. Okay, Bob. You should do radio. But then you know, you know who's straight into Matt with John Sykes. Johnny Sykes. Yeah. Johnny Sykes told me you're wrong, Bob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so I loved it. I love doing it. And I love doing all the different ones we do.
Well, for my sister, who may not know what you do in the brilliance that you do. In the brilliance that you are. Sure. You have been reporting on the tech industry since the early 90s. You're like one of the first people to ever kind of dive in with the big CEOs of all of these companies and get into their heads and interview them. And you've spoken to all of them, Bezos, Elon Musk, like just everybody.
Yeah. And you're one of the most brilliant, I think people I've ever met and known and been friends with. Thank you. And I love it. You're like, you're free. You're free to read a book thanks to our friendship because it's like I text you. I'm like, what does this mean? You're like, do this. Don't do that. Yes, I'm your I'm your circuit city service. You're like your super valuable asset to all of us dummies out here in the world. Yeah. You seem dumb. You seem done. Well, Jason.
I noticed the hair. You noticed it too. You noticed it too. You're the pretty one. You're the pretty one. Yeah. Well, you actually will with the gun show that you were just doing. Right. Yeah. What's going on there? Yeah. It's a show that's been running for a long time. And your podcast, the way that you explain and break down things for all of us that's so complicated. Thank you. I'm trying to figure out and navigate all this stuff. Yes, I want to ask you about that. Yeah, I want to know.
But a front of mind right now for me are two things, both Musk related one current status on the cage match. And also why would you switch? Why would you switch? Why would you switch from the bird to the X? Oh. I'm sorry if there are articles out there that explain all this, but I'm not a reader. Well, I think the X one is this is your brain on drugs. But let's start with, you know, it's interesting because I knew Elon when he wasn't, he was had a failed company actually.
One of his early companies he got kicked out of. He made a couple million dollars but was sort of washed up pretty early on and then started a company called X.com, which was a competitor to PayPal. They hated each other. I covered them. I was sort of, you know, man, not man, boy fest arguments going on. And then they merged and luckily sold to eBay and made their fortunes.
And Elon, you know, had a lot of mistakes before that and actually was really intriguing and interesting person because the rest of them went off and did kind of stupid things. And Elon started doing space, Tesla, really cool stuff. And I spent a lot of time with him and he's changed rather drastically in the last. Let me ask you this because you would obviously know this.
So yeah, I remember when X and PayPal merged and he tried to bring X on, he tried to drag that over and he tried to get rid of PayPal even though there was a big, there was a legal thing there with Peter Tilly had a big argument about that. He got zeroed out. He got zeroed out. And it seems like to me, he's obviously a fairly clever guy. And Elon Musk, it does appear that he misled people about his education.
It seems like he did not graduate with any degrees from any of these places that he claims he drew from including Queens in Canada. And he doesn't have all these high fluten degrees that he calls himself a physicist and all this kind of shit. Yeah, he calls himself a lot of things. So it's bullshit. So what's happening is, Jason, this would make you crazy because he's actually just, he's just lying about it and nobody just says he's just lying. Right? Well, you know, look, let's be clear.
He's happy. Look, what's interesting is to meet these people before they had money. Very, you know, they, and they change rather drastically when some of them do some of them don't. I mean, Tim Cook is a lovely guy. Brian Chesky runs Airbnb. Couldn't be nicer. But some people get warped really beyond repair after they get so much money and being the world's richest man and, and then this concept of yourself.
And, you know, there's a book coming up by Walter Isaacson that's going to talk about his early life, but it was his father was quite brutal to him. He was bullied as a kid. That doesn't mean every bully becomes this. No, no, no, but yeah, I, but I'm saying he is a self-made person in terms of the stuff he's done as a business person. Sure, sure. However, at the same time, he's also, so not only is he lied about that, but he's also misled people about he didn't invent Tesla.
He didn't invent any of these things. He stepped in and I think that he's obviously quite a shrewd businessman. That's what he is best at. But he tries to sell himself as the inventor when really he's a good businessman. Well, it's okay to be a good businessman, but he doesn't get his, he wants the credit for being a big brand. A tech visionary. I mean, I think he sees himself as the iron man, that, you know, that guy.
I think that's who Robert Doney Jr.'s role there, but he's, he's, he does have technical logical chops. There's no quite, you couldn't, you couldn't think of this long, but you're right. He didn't start Tesla, you know, he bought companies, he's buying Twitter, he's turned out to be very bad at media. Yeah. And, but he is, let me just say he's, he is quite brilliant in terms of business and he also, you could say the about Steve Jobs didn't have real technical chops.
It was others, Steve was the act and others, but he knew how to build a business. Yes. And that was critical. I agree. And, and by the way, I'm not suggesting that he's not smart. I can't believe I'm defending Elon right now. No, I know. I think he's really, he's a super showed right now. Well, this is your fifth podcast of the day.
The one thing that's that, that sounds pretty interesting that he's, that, well, there's a few things he's doing that's kind of interesting, but this, um, Starlin is, is it, is Neuralink or, or, no, Neuralink is, is, is, is, or, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is a brain, just a chip in your brain. Right. Now, yeah, is that as kind of real as they wanted to sound and if so, what is it?
No. Um, it's the idea that sort of like, you know, you watch the Matrix, you put something in your brain and it gives you, and, you know, you immediately can do karate or whatever. It's like a port that you can like put a hotline drive into. Sean, if you learned karate in a man, I was like, karate, karate. What are we talking about? What are we talking about? It's a pill. Oh, it's a, it's, it's, it's technology that you put.
It's, there are some ideas that it could help people who, who cannot walk, um, and things like that eventually will have that. Yes. And so Elon's idea, and this was really interesting when the interview and once was that AI was, he's been obsessed about AI for a long, long time and very worried about it. And, in fact, he was early investor in a lot of stuff. He's quite prescient about a lot of trends.
And, um, so he thought that at first that AI was going to kill us, essentially, that, you know, that same old trope. And then later, um, he decided it was going to treat us like house cats, like that we were, okay, we'll just feed you. Then he moved on to Ant Hills, which was interesting. So that, like, when we're building a highway and we cover, we did store an Ant Hill, we don't know it. We don't want to, but it's in our way, but we don't think, I shall kill the ants today.
So the, the he thought that we should need, we need more, uh, throughput in our brains to keep up with AI. That was, that was the, the inspiration. And then he also has Starlink, which is different, which is doing satellites, which is internet. Oh, oh, oh. It's satellite internet. It's being used in Ukraine quite, uh, actively and, uh, for, uh, battlefield communications. As opposed to fiber optics. Yeah. It's a satellite. And he's, he's got the, uh, nobody is as far along as he is.
Same thing with SpaceX. Why is that more advantageous than fiberlink or fiber optics? Cause it's in the air. In places where they don't have the cable laid. You can't drag the cable. Yeah. I got you. Where do you live in Los Angeles? Yeah, yeah. I came, well, you got cable right, but I'm right up your ass. And we will be right back. Thanks to good RX for supporting SmartLess. Are you ready for this year's cold and flu season?
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What are you thinking about? I'm sorry. I'm fascinated just by technology. I just love it. And you know Scottie, my husband loves, you know, lives for. Yeah. We can't just have a light switch. It's got to be, you know, this button turns this and I can do it for my phone and whatever. But now, and then like last November, it was a chat GPT seemed to come out of nowhere. It was like, what's chappy GPT in like in two days? Everybody was, you can ask it this and do this.
And then since then, there's been like, you know, and you hear like 50 companies coming out. Yeah. So talk to me about that. Where is that coming? Where did it come from? Why did it come out so fast? And does it scare you? Or what? No, I'm scared. I'm not scared of AI. I'm scared of people who use AI. How's that? Like it's kind of, you know, don't be scared of the actual tech. It's like being scared of the internet. It's what people do with the internet.
Yeah. And it's not going to suddenly become self aware and do a terminator move. A lot of a lot of sci-fi is based on that. That these machines care about us. They don't. They don't have any opinion about us. They're not going to lock the pod bay doors anytime soon. Yes. And decide, hello. Yeah. You know, I think when the issue is a lot, this has been around for a while. And by the way, Elon was an early investor in OpenAI, which was a public.
It was a nonprofit in order to- Which is the company that owns Cheshire PT. Yes. And then it had a, it now has a capitalist arm and has a profit arm. But what it was was he and others, not just him, were worried about the development of AI, and that would be controlled by the Google's, the Facebook's, the apples and the Amazon's of the world. Which all have now their own AI. That's right. And so it started like that. And so it's being run by Sam Altman, who I have huge regard for.
I really like him. He had- Yeah, I want to meet him. And no. No. He is. I don't want you to meet him. He's up. He's up again. I don't know when you're here. I don't know if you know this. They siphon through who I can see. You can't meet him. Oh, really? Okay. You can see him. Also, he's a gay, by the way. He's a smart guy. He's- So anyway, so what's happened is there's been a quantum leap in computing. There's been a quantum leap in the development of it.
It's been going on for a long, long time, like more than a decade or longer than that machine learning and stuff like that. And so suddenly it started to take some leaps because of computing power and scale and information. And there's these things called large language models, LLMs. That's what they call them, and it's a catchy name for them. And as we get more data, the data starts to teach itself and pattern match.
That's really- I'm trying to- it's like to do an easy thing, like say you had abacuses and calculators for a while and then you got the spreadsheet. And you don't think of that. Abacai. Abacai, thank you. I don't know. I have all their elements. You're so smart. Well, so it's just that the computers are becoming smarter and teaching themselves. And so artificial- it's not a really great word, artificial intelligence.
And so the standard AI is the best word is that it generates itself based on the patterns that come- And GAI spells gay. Right, guy. But Kara, it occurs to me that recently I was thinking about like we assign the term AI kind of everything. Now you go online or you're going to buy something or whatever they say. And it's, you know, it's AI generated or AI, you know, but- Well, that's just smart. Just talking about- it's just technology. That's all that is, right?
No, no. So we keep assigning the- Okay, sorry. No, it's not. It's different. So before you, you know, you'd search for Google and then it would come back with whatever you like will, your name, right? Sure. You'd come back. Now it can do- it goes into the search. And so before you'd get the page related to, now you get all the information and then it gets fed back at you, which is much more interesting.
So it goes deep into the sites and then generates, you know, I'm going to France, give me a thing before you'd have to search. And now it will do things and it will be embedded in- it's now being embedded in Microsoft, in Gmail, in everything you do. And there'll be- there'll be an AI for insurance. There'll be an AI for healthcare, lots of different health cares. There'll be an AI for everything, like travel.
Right. And that's- Yeah. It's just bringing you information faster in a way that's- that will predict things. Help me understand one thing that our industry is currently battling with the- with the strike both in the- with the writers and the actors.
One of the issues that they're concerned about, that we are concerned about is this- when you're talking about generative AI and- and the way in which it aggregates a bunch of previously um, um, created content or performances, books, uh, uh, movies, all these things.
So when it ingests all of these things such that it can train itself, um, to spit back out a result, um, there are people like Sarah Silverman and these people who are in the movies novelist that are saying, well, hang on a second, you're training your model based on things that we have done and we should be- We should say, correct. We should say, correct. Or license, get a license for your something. Yes, right.
How did they think- because I am assuming the horse, all of them, the millions of horses have left the barn now- No, no, no, no, no, because it's not protected by Section 230. Not of this is- it's copyright issues. And that's one of the ways they got money out of YouTube. And so that- what she's doing is absolutely correct. I think Barry Diller is going to do the same a bunch of, uh, newspapers are getting together. And actually, chat GPT just licensed AP, uh, the content for AP.
So the gate- name of the game now is to own your IP if you're- if you're a creator or you're an actor or whatever. And that's what you guys are arguing over. And let me just say- Well, so let me understand that. Yes, so let's- let's say that somebody, so for- for- for Tracy or- or people like me out there that are not- There's a lot of Jason Bateman. There's a Jason Bateman AI. There is.
So, yeah, so I mean, I could put a prompt into an AI thing and say, give me a performance that combines Jason Bateman's, uh, role on Silver Spoons with his role on the arrested development, whatever the hell it is. Um, and- I'd watch that. The- the people who own those- I'd watch the fuck out of that. The people who own the show Silver Spoons and own the show arrested development. Do they get compensated for that- They sure. So, that's what happens is being in the blender.
Yes, but you don't, because you- you don't, because you signed away your content, right? It's a long time ago. That's why- Whoever owns the content, that particular content. Now, you could pot- there might be some law legal cases where you say, well, it- this was never imagined that it would take my face or it would take my performance, but whoever owns your- own- ownership of IP is so important to intellectual property. I own all my IP right now, um, because I- because I want to do it.
So, if they- you know, Google used to just grab things and they didn't care about IP. They got in trouble for that. They- they- they- but they do own- they have owned a lot of your stuff, so does Facebook. They own all your stuff, because you signed it when you- Right. When you didn't realize it. But then, sorry, so I can hold onto this track.
The- so then the people who do own Silver Spoons and the rest of the development- Have they received a check for this use of that material in order to train these- They will. I- they will. I think these companies are not gonna- there's now a Bill in Congress that will say it's absolutely not protected. Section 230, you know what that is. Why does that have to be retroactively challenged in the court?
But well, then why didn't they receive a license before they ingested these- They didn't ingest everything. They may have made a mistake by ingesting it. They'll go have to go back and pay for the- any kind of copyrighted content that's under copyright. So all the things that are aggregated inside of AI that are owned by- Not all of them. Some of them are owned by them. They're- their own data map models. And so it'll just depend on what's in there.
And so the provenance of where it came from will be your super important. But- but I guess what Jason's saying- I think I- I think Jason told me- Yeah. That their entire model is built on information that was not created by them. Right. But they might own the rights too. But they don't own the rights to all the books that Tom Clancy has written. If they're out of IP, they can. Right. What do you mean out of IP? What does that mean? Out of- out of copyright.
Yeah, they're not- if they're not copyrighted. Meaning it becomes public domain. They can take Beethoven music and they can take- Well, the Beethoven, but that's over a hundred years old. Tom Clancy books are not a hundred years old. So they're- they're gonna have to- YouTube pays licensing fees. Like there are- it does happen. And so the question is what- they can't just grab anything. Although I'll- I'll never forget- I was walking with Larry Page.
You started Google at Google in the early days. And there was a room of televisions. And I said, what are you doing? They were on. Like it was a circuit city at the time. And I- he said, I'm taping all of television. And I was like, what? Like it was so crazy. And he- he was using close captioning to search television. And I said, do you have the rights to do that? And he goes, well, it's gonna be great for people to be able to search television. It's great for the companies.
I said, but then you- you control it. Like I- you can't- you can't do it without asking. And he just was like, well, of course I can. And I was like, well, I hope they sue you. Like because that's- that's what's gonna happen. There's gonna be a lot of lawsuits. I think- I think luckily a lot of the media companies and the publishers do understand this right now early. And they're not- they won't be able to grab a lot of copyrighted content very easily.
We were- we were talking about it yesterday, the three of us were- one of the things that's going on with our- the labor dispute that's going on in our businesses is- you know, the- the companies want to be able to have this blanket usage of- They do. Like this and stuff, right? And so they're- they do. And- and they're claiming, you know, fuck you, we can do whatever the hell we want. And how dare you tell us what to do?
Well, at the same time, we know for fact that they're involved in litigation right now to try to protect their- That's right. Info from being- That's right. So they're sort of- once again, you can understand how outraged I was because as you saw before that I hate people who are- Right. Hypocrites. Who are- yeah, who are total hypocrites. And that seems to be the name of the game.
And- and I think- and also correct me if I'm wrong- is there is- bipartisan support in Congress for solving this issue with- 100%. Yes, because they don't- because they're going to do to what they did before to publishing companies and media companies, they're going to fuck them. And that's what they're trying to do now. They're going to have a harder time here because they're going deep into the content versus pointing to it, which gives you power.
And so with you and the studios though, I- I- I always say this to the studio- heads that I talked to and I mean, the else is you're all on the same side against the tech companies in the end. Because that's who's going to fuck you. That they have the money, they have the time, they have the means. So, you know, Netflix interests are very different than Disney's interests that are very different than Apple's interests. And so that's your problem. And also AI is not clear where AI is going yet.
But you can anticipate that they're going to want to feed in all of Silver Spoons and make a new show that's like that. They can do that. And so that happens while all this is getting sorted out and litigated. Is there an injunction where AI gets frozen or does these AI companies get to continue to make profits while they figure out who's going to win or lose? And once they do lose, do they then retroactively compensate all of these companies? That's what happened with you too.
That's what happened with you too. But that's what happens in American business. That's all they do, which is you keep going. You do whatever the fuck you want. And at a certain point, that your chicken's come home to roost and you've got to end up paying people back retroactively. Well, except you guys have given away a lot. I have this argument with a guy. Thurbrock from the Sun guy. What's his name? The creator John let's go French Stewart.
No, no, no, no, no, the creator of the creator of the creator. Oh, you know, Kristen Johnson, KC Warner Tom Warner. No, no, no, no, no. I got to go to love it. No, I love him. He's great. You know, a great piece in the Washington Post. No, it's not the cast. It was the creator. I know. I'm being said. I'm sorry. His name is Terry Turner. No, Bonnie and Terry. Bonwattella. No, I'll find it. The third rock from the Sun. So guy who did you? Are 30 men? No, three men in the baby.
No, two and half men. The two and half men. Chuck Lori. Chuck Lori. Oh, my God. B and I were sitting. Ding ding ding. We were sitting next to each other at dinner and the other side was a Google executive, a very wealthy Google executive. And he Instagram had just gotten bought and he goes, why did that guy get so much money? Like, I think it was a billion dollars or whatever. And I said, because he owned it. Chuck. Like, sorry. He owned it. And he goes, well, why should he get that?
I said, because he's the owner. He owns the company and he has a piece of it. And I said, I said, you're a well played employee from what I can tell you sell your content to them. And then they own it. CBS. And you're the reason CBS is so valuable. And you should get a piece of that. But why don't you get a piece of that? He does. He does, but he still is not getting the piece that he created value. You know what I mean? And so, you know, he got very exercise about it.
But the point is you all stepped at start to rethink your entire economic system in Hollywood because either you guys are going to have to get a piece of it or have to be entrepreneurs yourselves rather than rely on studios. Well, we have to go to Wells Fargo and get the loan for production instead of the studios going to Wells Fargo to get the loan for production. That's correct. You have to take the risk. But that's hard because your industry operates on fear, loathing and insecurity, right?
Yeah. Right. First of all, Cara, thanks very much and have a good year. Secondly, secondly, we've got, in Hollywood, we've got our top brains on it and we're all, yeah. Of course, you're screwed. Cara, you, so all of this tech stuff that you have been involved with journalism and everything since you started, why, what drew you to it? Why do you still love it and have you ever tried to start your own company and if that was? I have started many companies. I have.
No, I'm in podcast companies, but I'm at like techie kind of stuff. Oh, no, no, I'm not techno. No, I have. And I've been offered jobs at all the big companies. I would have been a billionaire at this point. It had I taken them. I'm sure. And I was like, what do I need you for? I'm a journalist like an idiot. I know I had a really early Google offer. I didn't want it to Amazon. I was feeling those opportunities are not over for you. I doubt, but definitely. You put your hand up.
You get gobbled up. I decided to innovate with journalism. And so I broke away from the Wall Street Journal, created my own company. Now everybody's doing it like sub-stack and stuff like that, created a conference company is highly lucrative. So the reason I was attracted is because I was at the Washington Post and I was headed for the big time, which would have been covering the Clinton administration. And I just couldn't do it. I was like, this is not what I want to do.
Cover politics and be part of it thing. And I just kept seeing, I went to this fellowship at Duke and started using early internet tools. And I downloaded a book onto my computer. And I messed up the whole network at Duke at the time. And the guy was mad at me. This nerdy guy was like, what did you do? I said, I downloaded a book. You could clog the pipe. Yeah, I clog the pipe. And he goes, you made a mess. And I said, I downloaded a book, you asshole. And he goes, you clogged up the pipe.
I said, but I downloaded a book. And I said, then everything could be downloaded. And so it occurred to me at that moment. And this was back in the 90s that everything that can be digitized would be digitized. And that was, I was like, oh, well, that's like the Gutenberg Bible. That's like radio, television, except bigger. And it's a worldwide network of information. And so the minute it happened, I was like, oh, I see. This is a big fucking deal. This is so, that's all.
Wow. And now a word from our sponsor. Smartless is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you're anything like me, you stay up at night with your mind racing, racing, right? I get up, like, if I get up to pee, I will then stay up because I'm up and my mind will race trying to get things done. I'll even send emails and texts and everything just to get work done while I'm up at 2, 3, 4, 5 in the morning, whatever it is. And I can't stop the racing thoughts, right?
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In other words, thoughts and interests equally represented from both sides, whatever those are, in every industry to figure out and to be creative and curious about what the potential problems and pluses are from this specific thing, this AI thing. Because what like we're dealing with with these strikes right now, I think everybody kind of agrees we don't have brains big enough to figure out how to language everything specifically into this term of contract.
We're going to need these next three years to really figure out the micro, but what is the language for the macro foundational stuff such that as we start to learn the specifics of how this stuff benefits us or hurts us, the language is already established that we can make it all fair as we go forward. Where are the brains that can fill these rooms? Hey Jay, I've noticed something and this is sort of related.
I think that Jason, you would have been, you would have, you'd make a really good Canadian. This is not the first time you've talked about the idea of like, there should be a broad council, there should be a consensus given by a government agency that we can all turn to. I mean, you're really, you would make a, you would fit right in Canada. You would, yeah. And I mean that as a compliment, I really do. I listen, I love it up there. I really do. But you know, you guys are creative.
Look at Sean just did with the show. You know, creativity is not going to be digitized easily at all by, in any way, creativity and entrepreneurship. They can't copy Quirk. They can't. And that's powerful. That's what Elon Musk can try. But I got rapid fire like last three questions because I got to let you go. They're not going to let you go. We have your like 10 questions for Chris.
Okay. Sure. Well, I want to talk about military intelligence because you're like, you'll love the Apple Vision Pro. Well, really? I'm, I'm going to get a demo of it next week. Good. I was supposed to go and I'm Jason's there and I'm not. You know what? It's not quite there yet, but you'll, if you get it, you'll get it. Marital, my sister Tracy, what that is. Apple Vision Pro is a headset. It's like the Oculus, but it's very different. It's going to, it's going to change work.
I think it's like ski goggles, but you could see stuff inside it. You can see through them, actually. How is it going to change work, Cara, just quickly? Because you're not going to need a screen. You never want to cost $3,000. I said, a really nice screen cost $3,000. I think you're going to have the screens in front of you. And when it gets lighter and better, you'll be, you'll be working in front of you. So heads up display is the way it's going to go, 100%. This is the first step there.
You'll really enjoy it. And touch the dinosaur, Jason. Touch the dinosaur. Touch the dinosaur. Touch the dinosaur. That's not a euphemism, right? That means it's just, okay. A porn will be really good with this. A porn will be amazing. I haven't got it. Trampstamp. It says touch the dinosaur. But Cara, remember the Google Glasses? Like why, why not that? I have a pair. I just found my pair the other day because it wasn't right because it was too, um.
But then nobody's going to walk around with the whole thing over here. It's not going to look like that. It's not going to look like calm down. Calm down. Calm down. Look at the early internet. The internet looks like shit. Everything looks like shit at the beginning. Remember the headphones, airpods? Sean, nobody's walking around to go anywhere. Sean, look at your baby pictures. Everything looks like your glasses. It'll look like your glasses. I told you, it's like the automated car.
We're all going to be getting an automated car. As people are going to be showing up at redress. I just did it yesterday with my son. Yeah, Cara, you're going to order one. The user before is going to be dead in it. No. Show up. And then you're fucking these things are going to be crazy. Crazy. Crazy. No, no. I just rode the Waymo yesterday around the area with my son. What's the Waymo? What is it? Waymo is owned by Google. And then there's Cruise by GM. And then there's a list by Amazon.
But what is it? So driverless Uber. No people in the cars. Why would you ever get into that? It's so cool. I'll send you the video. Is it like an Uber? Can you text me that video? It's like an Uber. Yes. I just put them up on reds. It's a ride-share thing. Like a ride-share thing and you call it. They have them in LA. I've seen it in LA. They're just starting in LA. They're in testing right now. But they're in Phoenix going to the airport now.
And in Houston, they have long haul trucks in Texas doing driverless trucks. They're not for helmets to the riders just for the first year. You don't need it. You get in a car with an Uber driver who's like 16 and you're good with that. I'm sorry. I can't wait to do it. Get in one of those and get it and join the foot and a half club. I have to ridden these things. My girl. Yeah, with your girl. Really nice. You would do that anyway with someone in the front seat as my husband.
You were a good guy. Yeah. I want to know about, okay, so just, okay. Well, I wanted to get into military intelligence because I know you are into that. I just, like, I don't want to. Millage, okay. Tell me about that. Like, how, because you grew up like learning about it and then you pivoted right or something or your dad was doing something. I couldn't go in military because I was gay. Sean, that was why it was Don't Ask Don't Tell and I'd like to tell. I'm going to ask. Yeah, remember that?
Remember Don't Ask Don't Tell? Yeah, you made them ask. I made them ask. I couldn't be in military because I was gay. My dad's not in military. Fucking ask me. Fucking, but it was I'll tell you. And I'll kiss her. I'll kiss her. I'll kiss her. And then you're going to ask me. I'll kiss her and then you're going to ask me and I'm going to tell. Thank you, Bill Clinton, for that, by the way. Well, that's too big of a special. We'll get into that next time. Okay, let's see.
But what is the, what is your favorite new techie gadget of the year of the last 10 years? Is it this dumb ride that I'm never going to get into? I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I think I do. I don't think I've ever been old enough to go to a car and I'm going to be confident that a dm student doesn't know the price at all. We're proud of that. Right. Yep. Yep. Right. So, we're, we're proud, right? And we're absolutely, so.
Until we get to that? Especially, we have that time. We'll fall in love with that. You're I don't believe you have anything to argue. Yeah. And then when she contact, well, let me talk to her next, okay. What? I do believe in you, but in the open car, okay, so it's Yokohama. I agree. and then in short terms into the cities, you have people do them. So there's all kinds of, and then there's job opportunities to run them. And there's, it's a false argument to say, we have enough time to do this.
But a lot of these automated robots are becoming drunk, and so they're forming a good time. We would, alcoholics autonomous. It's a listen. So, you're funnier than Elon Musk. I'm out. I'm out. That's sloppy. That was an Elon Musk joke. Just FYI. That was sloppy. That was something I remember. That's what's the opposite of artificial intelligence. What? Here it comes. Natural stupidity. Hey guys. So, Karen, tell me about the greatest military invention of the last few years.
I think the Starlink, the Starlink what it's doing in Ukraine is really important. It is. It is. It's, yeah. Now, when you were a kid, these are, and then we're going to let you go, because these are the things I worked on that I want to know. I can't imagine, like, I would have killed to know you as a kid, like, we would have been best friends. Best friends. But what do you, Princeton New Jersey? I can't imagine working at KFC or something. Like, what is like the first, did you ever work?
Like, what was your first job? I was an entrepreneur. I took pictures of people for their senior, senior pictures. So you were a little photographer, like a little photographer. Yeah. A darkroom. Creepy. Did you hold on to all the photos and then load them online and digitize them then own the IP? Fuck you, Cara. Do you ever come down to Los Angeles so we can see face to face in the chair, Emil? Yes, I come in. Yes. Will you come and have dinner with us?
Yes. I probably, if you mean it, if it's just fake and that's what I'm doing. No, it's not Hollywood fake. Well, I'll speak for me. I want to be your friend. I need more smart people in my life. Yes, I'd be happy to. I love Los Angeles. One of my favorite places. Last question I have. Do you ever take a break from tech? You have my phone, from your phone. Yes, I have four children. I mean, I have Sean, excuse me, I'm calling you Scott. I just did pivot. I have four children, yes.
No, but I mean, like, do you ever do like a schedule two weeks? We're not going to do, you know, one of those things. No, no, I'm working all the time. What do you do to dumb down? What's the dumbest thing you do? I went to see Barbie twice. No, I love Barbie. I think it's brilliant, actually. You know, I do things like the succession podcast, which is I'm a big fan. I enjoyed that. For example, dumb down TV. I watch TV mindlessly. Are you watching some bad TV? No, I think it's good.
Whatever. I like, I like, you know, who I like. The guy who's in played Jared Butler. I love Jared Butler. I love Jared Butler. I love him. I don't know why. And Lee Neeson has a name. You know, Lee Neeson has a new movie that he beats people. I like that. Listen, Karen. Do you ever? I don't care. Just kill someone for me. It's a hug that's missing something and needs to find it. You're in. I'm going to prescribe something to you. I'm going to write this down.
I'm going to write it in my perspective. I'm going to write it down. I want you to do it right now. I want you to do it. Yeah. I'm solicited advice from a white guy. Great. I want you to put your bare feet on the grass. I don't do that. I have to listen to kind of people on this bulls. Is this the long island? Put your bare feet on the grass in the sand. You know what? I have one of those black cats. This connect from your tech. No, no. No. I love my tech.
I'm going to, when I was having a baby, this is my last drink. I was having my son. I was holding a blackberry and texting. Yeah. Where are you really? I love it. Well, I got an emergency seat section and I was texting. Walt Mossberg, who was a great technology journalist. And he was my partner. And at all the things I did, I was texting him saying eight centimeters, seven, seven, whatever the centimeters was. And I had an emergency seat section. They rushed me into the room.
And it was in my hand. It was a square little thing. Oh, my God. And my brother was a doctor at this hospital. And the doctor looked at me and they said, your brother said you'd be a problem around the tech. And so they covered my, they covered the blackberry in a plastic bag. And then I got the blackberry. And then they taped it. Because you know, like germs. And so it sat there, brought buzzing the entire seat section. It's a great, great moment in my life.
That's a, do you, do you, where you were one of those parents, where we were like, because I know you're a great mom. Yeah. Did you tell them, like, put the tablet down. Put your phone down. Are you like, yeah, do whatever you want. No, because we could, my ex-wife, and I, that's, I'm married twice. My ex-wife used to be the chief technology officer of the United States and was a Google executive. So they couldn't put anything over on either of them. So we had full control of the situation.
And I also could call people one time when my sons were doing too much Snapchat. I was somewhere and I brought them in a room. And I said, here is Evan Spiegel, the creator. And we're going to turn off your Snapchat. And they were like, if you don't stop using it, and he goes, yes, I'm going to. It was perfect. Wow. I love that. Nice mom. Steve Jobs, we did a few jobs. Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs. Karen, I love you. And I love that you're such a great mom. Thank you. Thank you.
Well, that was five minutes long. That was five minutes long. My God. He's come back. Yeah, we need to do a part too. I feel like we're just. We have to. We barely scratched the surface. You would have been so much better. We were so much better. We were so much better. We were so much better. We were so much better. We were so much better. What the fuck? What happened? What happened with that shot? What happened with that shot? What happened? What happened? You put so many famous people.
I don't care. I don't care. No, I care. Soon I'll be more famous than all of you. I know. That's true. Oh, no. Not today. Not today. Not today. I feel someone. But not today. Gladiator. Gladiator. I don't even know her. It's such a lesbian. It's so crazy. That way he sports. So I don't know how that works. All right. I love Gladiator. Hurry down to LA for some snacks. I will. And Sean, I'm coming to New York. I'm coming to New York with my oldest son. Don't miss the play.
Get there before the play. I'm going to the play. I'm going to see Alex Adelman next week. And then I'll see you next week. It's literally the theater next time. I will come see you the week after. OK? Okay, honey. This big. I know that. I'm going to go see it. I tried to get him on the podcast to talk about it. But he was too busy. He was too tired. Who me? I'm very tired. I see his wrist. I love your show. He's coming from the carbs. I don't say I took credits.
Sean pulled me aside and provoked it down and said, should I do podcasts and I gave a primer on the whole. Yes, well, with the first time you interviewed me years and years ago and yours, I was like, how do you do this? Like when you do this? You did it so long ago. You guys have done a great job. And I really appreciate it. Were you guys were in P town just to, what, just trying to hit the cliche in the bullseye? Like, what's going on? Doing gay things. What do you got? Jack shows. Jack shows.
Meaning the sex. Poppers. You guys going to poppers? Poppers. Yeah. Poppers. I missed, I missed took you for a game and you missed took me for a lesbian. Yeah, we made out for just a free second. It was magical. You guys are freaks. We were on a drag show. We were on a drag show. We love you. Goodbye. All right. Thank you. Will you text me the video of the car? I shall. It's really fun. I'll do it. All right. Bye. Thanks everybody. Thank you. Thank you. That's a great guest. I love her.
It's just a great guest. Really great. Couldn't you just literally, like you said, Jay, just have dinner with her and talk about everything? Well, yeah. How does one person have all that info? I could do a whole hour without you guys. I just asked you questions and questions and questions. Or three hours. I know. I told you at the top. I was like, I don't read stuff or go on the internet. I just call her a texture. I'm like, what's happening with this?
Yeah. I got to say, how many podcasts does she have? She's got two right now. I should start listening to at least one of them. On with Kara and Pivot. Pivot. Well, in one cover's attack and the other one covers journalism? Something like that. I was a guest co-host on Pivot. It was really fun. You would be kind of, you might want to know. Yeah, but I want to get some, I want to increase my, my, my carous wisher either in personal podcasts. Yeah. You know what else is interesting?
Oh, here he goes. Hey guys. Hey guys. Just clear. He's out of the deck. Sean's got a box. Audience. Sean Hays is now in the middle of he thinks he might have started a buy. So you know, the approach when we start following each other. I think he has the doors open. He's waiting to be straight up. And then sometimes at the end, I wave. Good. Not as, not as best. No, that's not as good. The shark had no teeth on that one. But that's okay. He's going to, he's going to circle.
He's going to circle make another attempt. Here he comes. Sometimes, you know what, you know what? Eric comes. You know, when I was in the store today. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. It was so crowded. It's all yelled to the crowd. It's my ass. Goodbye. No, no, no, that's not, you know, you know, you know, you know, listen, I'm going to grab a hold of the stick. I'm in the pilot seat. And I'm going to spin around. It's great to have a car. It's very sweet.
You know, when I wanted to get into her, I wanted to understand, you know, what's that? Well, just, you know, just about the power of computing and what it takes like for like, AI, like, is it, are we talking giga, mega or kill a buy? Bye. Yeah, I know. I better hear the best. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. SmartLess is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjurf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Grandterry. SmartLess.
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