And welcome everyone to another Smart Money Circle episode. I'm Adam Sarhan. With me today is Will Fine, who's the founder and CEO at Granite shares ETS with over 10 billion in assets under management. Will thank you so much for taking the time and welcome to the Smart Money Circle. Thanks Adam. Great to be on the show. Thank you for having me. So will I always like to ask, can you please tell us your story and how you got to where you are today?
Yeah. So I've been in the ETF business almost all of my career, say almost because after college I worked in an investment bank as my first job out of university. So did that very briefly and then ended up working at what's now BlackRock. But in those days was Barclays Global Investors and we were launching the first ETFs in Europe at that time. So I've started my career in London and, you know, stayed with the product ever since.
So I've been lucky that this product, the ETF, the Exchange Traded Fund, has grown into a gigantic, you know, global industry. But from very humble beginnings, you know, we were working on the first products in the market and I've followed that ever since. Wow, what a great story. So right place, right time. Saw the opportunity, took it and ran with it if I understand you correctly.
No, absolutely. And I think at that time, you know, it was nascent, no one had any, any idea, you know, in terms of how big the industry would get. But I knew that this product was going to be popular. And so you know, after BlackRock, I deliberately elected to sort of start my entrepreneurial journey and went to join a start up that was at the time trying to launch the first commodity based ETFs in the market.
And it was an opportunity that I thought was was good at the time and something that the bigger firms, including BlackRock weren't doing. And so I joined this company, had equity in in the business and it was a great ride. We went from sort of 0 to over 30 billion at the height and ultimately the company got sold. So once I started there, you know, eventually made my way to, to starting my own business, which is Granite Shares, you know, a few years later.
Wonderful. So tell us about your business and everything you do because we're very interested. Yeah. So we are obviously an asset management company first and foremost, but we specialize in exchange traded funds. And you know, as an ETF issuer, we're involved in everything. So we do the design, we do the, the launch, the management, the marketing of ETF.
So unlike perhaps some other, you know, diversified financial services business, what's unique about a specific ETF manager is that's all we do. So in other words, we specialize in the ETF fund. And the brilliant thing about ETF says it's really just a wrapper for all sorts of underlying investments. And so we started a company, we're headquartered in New York City, but the business is now global. So we have products that are
listed on European exchanges. We have a team in Asia, and our products are distributed all around the world. And you know, we have a vast array of different investments ranging from things like physical gold to leveraged ETFs on single companies to, you know, high yield ETFs on different underlyings that you know are generated through options. So we have 10 billion give or take in terms of assets and a lot of different ETF strategies here Europe and and distributed around the world.
I'd love that so people can go to the website, it'll be in the description to learn more about all the different products you have As far as risk management, let's take the conversation there, please. How do you handle risk and what are some mistakes you see people make with respect to risk management? I think that the, the way that we think about it is that, you know, we're effectively like the tool kit for investors. So we are the the company that's
providing those tools. So with ETFs, the main thing that we try and do is deliver the stated investment objective. Now that obviously changes and varies per fund. So that could be anything from, you know, just providing exposure to the Spot gold price to replicating 2 times the return of NVIDIA stock over a given day. So there are plenty of ways that investors, you know, can manage
risk and we can manage risk. And obviously from a portfolio management perspective, you know, we have to have a robust, you know, investment management process, you know, team in place. And that's something that sets us apart in terms of, you know, we do all of that ourselves in house. It's not outsourced to others. So in in, you know, the spirit of trying to, you know, make sure that our products do what they say on the proverbial tin.
You know, that's what we do everyday and we obviously focus to make sure that we deliver that quality on a daily basis. I love that. Thank you for that explanation. The vast majority of our audience are independent money managers, high net worth investors, their clients and I just, you know, do it yourself investors. There's a lot of interest in ETFs in general. One of our most, you know, whenever I interview people that are in your space, I get lots of emails and questions and all
that fun stuff. If you don't mind, can you explain to the audience how the 2X NVIDIA works and or some of the options products without going too deep, but just, you know, the stock trades all day, let's say it's up 1%. How does a 2X ETF quote UN quote work? And then the options I do if you can explain that high level. It works in a similar way to leverage, just more broadly.
So if you were to borrow, whether it to be able to buy a house or whether you were to just buy a stock yourself on a margin account, it works in a very similar way. In other words, if the underlying stock goes up by 1% in a day, the objective of a leveraged ETF, if it's a two times leverage would be to go up by 2% in a day. And the exact same principle applies if it's a short.
So we have two times short ETFs and therefore if the underlying stock was to go down by 1% in a day, the short ETF would go up by 2% in a day. So that's how they work in terms of options with the options products. In our case, it's our yield boost family. We sell options contracts and the reason for doing that is when you sell an option, you generate what's called a premium and that premium can be distributed to investors and
create a yield. So options strategies and the most common ones are among the most common that that we use are either things called covered calls or put writing strategies. They all ostensibly mean the same thing, which is you're selling a contract and you're generating A yield from selling that. So you're turning volatility into income. And so that's the the benefit they try and generate very high yields. Thank you very much for that explanation.
OK, let's talk about some timeless lessons that you've learned along the way that you'd like to share with the audience, either business, life, relationships, health, anywhere you want to go. Sure. Well, I think as as somebody who started my own company and who's now been going for eight years on that journey, I mean we are a company that we raised venture capital from day one.
So we've been very much of a part of the venture capital sort of investment cycle as well as business cycle with growing Granite shares. And you know, I think there are there are a number of lessons along the way. But I think one of the main ones that I can think of in terms of, you know, building the company is that probably like a lot of things in life that it always takes longer than you think and costs more money. And, you know, within that there's a lot of stuff to to talk about.
But the other thing is about sort of persistence and about being able to stay in the game. And, you know, a lot of opportunities or a lot of things in life, you know, it's really about timing. And so you might have the right idea, but the timing is wrong. And it's about being able to stay the course knowing that, you know, you'll get to a pointless cycle when it is the right time.
And, you know, we as a company, you know, really took, you know, a number of years before we sort of took off, so to speak. And so there's a number of years there of, you know, struggle, perseverance before things start to start to come, right. I love that. So let's talk about the other side of that timeless mistakes. What are some timeless mistakes that you've made, you've seen other people make? How do you learn from them so you don't repeat them?
Well, I mean, there, there, there are so many. I was lucky. Like I said, I was involved in a company where I was not the founder, but I had equity in the business. It was a start up. And you know, fortunately that grew into success story. But you know, success stories are never linear. There's always, you know, bumps and bruises along the ways, always ups and downs and learning experiences.
And, you know, I think one of the things that, you know, every entrepreneur should think about more than perhaps gets talked about is it doesn't matter, you know, how great the idea is or how good the opportunity is that, you know, there's no business, like no business. And if you run out of cash, then
that's game over. And so, you know, a bit that gets probably talked about less because it's not as exciting as, you know, the idea and you're changing the world and all these sort of amazing things people love to talk about is just simply that a lot of it is about being able to stay in the game. And that means being very prudent in terms of managing money and making sure that you've always got enough cash on
hand to keep the business going. And that's a combination of, you know, prudent management, that's a combination of, you know, raising money at the right times. You know, everything goes. There's a lot of things that go into that, but you know, one of the biggest mistakes I see being made is, you know, people running out of money and or having to raise so much money that they get diluted down and eventually the founder ends up owning nothing from what is ostensibly a successful business.
Got it. Now that makes great sense. I'd love that. Make sure you have enough cash to stay in the game, as as you're saying. So what about leadership? You've you're a great leader. Tell us what lessons you've learned about leadership.
You've been led by other people and not just what makes a great leader, but what are some lessons that people can do that want to be that have that entrepreneurial bug they're leading A-Team for the first time possibly, or you know, anything along those lines, please. I mean, I've always, I've always felt like it was very important
to lead by example. And, you know, I think it's really, really difficult when you're first starting a company and you don't have the, you know, the, the, the cash for want of a better word, to go out and sort of hire necessarily, you know, the people that you necessarily want to hire. And you know, you're trying to hire people based upon a mission or based upon an idea, the view that, hey, you know, join me
today. And you know, your compensation will be lower than if you worked at A, at a traditional job or whatever you're doing, but the pay off hopefully will be, will be bigger in the long run. That's a, that's a tough one to, to sell to people. And so, you know, getting people involved from the beginning based upon, you know, what you're trying to do with the company, the opportunity is
really difficult. And ultimately that comes down to people trusting you that you're going to be able to deliver that and make it a success. So I think part of that is down to leading by example and showing people that you're not just somebody that just talks and does empty words, that you're out front and center building the business, you know, being the face of the company, you know, really trying to to push forward every day.
And so from that perspective, I think that's really important. The second thing that that probably goes hand in hand with that. And again, every, every company is different, but I've found specifically relating to our business that when you have a smaller team and you're pushing really hard, it it's really important to, to give people huge amount of latitude to do their jobs.
And in some respects, you could, you could take it to an extreme and say that, you know, that you're really giving people almost no, you know, training or, you know, management, etcetera. But that that sort of has to be the trade off because you don't have time to do that. And you know, you're, you're giving people that opportunity to thrive. But doing that in a way that is, is sort of very autonomous. And, and, and I found, you know, those work and clearly it's not for everybody.
It has to be for the right people, but you know, the the right people thrive in that environment. And those are typically the people that, you know, add the most value in a very entrepreneurial organization. Yeah, I think that's. A great point is that you're getting high value people or people that are competent and they can go get paid a job that equals their compensation right now. So it makes 500 grand a year, a million a year, 250 a year, a dollar a year, it doesn't
matter. But hey, don't take that million bucks right now. Come with me and hopefully you make 10. I see you're smiling. So you know you make 10 or 20 down the road. So I fully feel. In in theory, but when you actually present it to someone who's got a, a lifestyle that time may have kids, you know, may have, you know, obviously liabilities, that's a it's a difficult, difficult conversation to have. Yeah, but when it works, it
works. And it's more than they've got to have enough belief in that vision. That's the dream. Yeah, that's the dream. So that is the, you know, that's the classic risk reward pay off right there. There can be no reward in life without risk and you know that is the ultimate in terms of your taking the maximum amount of risk and therefore you should be rewarded accordingly. Yeah, I absolutely love that. OK, so let's talk about the flip side of that adversity.
How do you handle adversity? I know successful leaders have been through adversity, otherwise they wouldn't be successful. And what are some obstacles you had to overcome along the way? This is, this is a really good question. I mean, I think to some degree it, you know, there's adversity or there's tough times all, all
the time. And it, it's a bit, you know, again, the mindset whereby you just have to keep going and regardless of, of what's happening, there'll be plenty of times when you know, you have really bad, bad days, you know, bad periods, etcetera, and you have no alternative just to keep going. And so, you know, you try and obviously be as positive as you can without it seeing disingenuous. I mean, I think, you know, people obviously understand, you know, especially a business like
ours, super transparent. You know, everything we do in terms of the funds is completely transparent. So everyday, you know, anybody can look up, you know, how how much money we have in the fund, you know, etcetera. So you know, everybody that you work with is kind of aware of of what's going on, but all you can do is push forward. And I think it in some respects it's an easy answer, but it's the, it's the only answer because you know what else, what other, you know, choice do you have?
I think again, it comes back to the staying in the game comment that you know, I think that's one of the key attributes you need to have that you just need to be able to keep going regardless of of, you know, what the current environment looks like. Yeah, I love that. I think that's really, really important because most people, once it gets tough, they quit, they stop, and that's why there's a few. That's.
What? Yeah. And, and probably the second part of your question, I mean, we've had, you know, so many different, you know, tough times like along the way. But one of the things in our business is, you know, every fund that you launch is not going to be a success and you're going to have failures along the
way. And so, you know, being able to to identify, you know, something that's failing and you know, there's always an emotional component to it because you launch something not expecting it to fail. You launch something because you think it's a great idea and everybody else should think it's a great idea. But that's just not how life works sometimes.
And so, you know, you have to be able to reconcile that, you know, something hasn't worked and then take actions appropriately to, you know, to terminate that fund, to close it down. There's always like different partners that you end up partnering with that for whatever reason don't work out. Or, you know, there's people and there's all sorts of things that won't go your way. And, you know, being able to deal with that and move on is is
sort of critically important. I. Love that when you were saying the funds don't work, it's almost like a trade. No trader puts on a trade saying, oh, this is not going to work. Everyone expects it to work. And then. Yeah. And then all of a sudden it doesn't work and then they've got to deal with it. So being prepared for that is really, really powerful. Yeah. And. You hear this a lot about trading or investing, that it's
a psychology. It's about being emotionally attached to a stock or whatever it is and, you know, realizing that sometimes you might love the company, but the company doesn't love you in terms of investment. And, you know, is when to when to get out is equally as important as when to buy in. Yeah. Fully agree. I wrote a whole book about psychological analysis, which is my contribution to Wall Street, if you will, fundamental and technical analysis.
Well, all right, my thought process, that's not enough to beat the market. If it was, everybody would have owned a few islands in the Caribbean. So the third piece puzzle, which is the psychological part, teach people how to make rational, not emotional decisions. And I love what you're saying here. All right, beautiful. Final question for you. Well, what is the best piece of advice you'd like to give the audience or your 30 year old self?
Well, I think the, you know, the best piece of advice that that I could give for anybody that is thinking about, you know, getting in or starting an entrepreneurial journey is I think sometimes there's this, you know, we perhaps place too much emphasis on, you know, experience and being qualified and being the right timing and all these things never necessarily line up. And I think the best advice I could give is people just need to start that there's never,
there's never a bad time to start. And you know, if anything, you just sort of missing out on opportunity the longer that you wait.
So I think if you're, if you're committed to doing it, you know, you just need to start doing it. And so many times I've seen people sort of procrastinate really longer, think about, Oh, well, not this year, maybe next year or maybe a few years I'll have enough experience or maybe I'll have, you know, squirreled away enough money that I can sort of take the risk and.
You know, all of these things are sort of inconsequential on the grand scheme of things, that either the business works or it doesn't work. And I think the sooner you find it out, the better. I love it. Absolutely love it. Well, Will, thank you so much for coming on the show. Congrats on all your success. This was fantastic and hopefully we'll have you on again soon. Yeah. Thank you. Adam, great to talk to you. Thank you so much for having me. Been a pleasure.