Hello, my name is Gillian Bowen. This is Small Firm, Big Impact.
Complaints have to be made in writing and submitted with a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally, we need evidence, um, to be provided in support of the complaint.
For Australian and rest of the world members outside of New Zealand. Um, the By Laws is the critical starting point in relation to their conduct. And for New Zealand based members, it's the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws and the rules incorporate the Code of Ethics and the other professional and technical standards.
You should be responsive. So that includes um, being careful to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um, and if you need more time, just ask and tell us why. We're usually pretty flexible about that.
It's the podcast giving chartered accountants the up to date information they need to do their jobs. Each episode I share resources, tools, and expert advice provided by Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand and a range of people across our profession. So get following the pod in your favourite podcast app. Let's start a conversation. Today we have Kate Dixon, Australian Conduct Leader, and Rebecca Stickney, New Zealand Conduct Leader.
The topic the complaints process for members of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand. Kate and Rebecca. Welcome to Small Firm, Big Impact.
Morning, Gill.
Hi, Gill. Great to be here. Thank you.
Okay, uh, I want to take a minute first to get to know our experts, because that is the best way to set this up so people know who we're talking to and why we're talking to you. Kate, what do you do at CA ANZ?
Well, as conduct leader, I'm responsible for all the complaint, investigations and disciplinary proceedings in relation to members and former members in Australia and the rest of the world outside of New Zealand. So this includes, um, also includes supporting our disciplinary panels to carry out their roles in relation to complaints and disciplinary proceedings.
Okay. All right. Becky, how about you.
So likewise, I'm responsible for the disciplinary function in New Zealand. Um, my team is a small multidisciplinary team. We're made up of lawyers, a chartered accountant, uh, and another investigator and two administrators. Um, as with the Australian counterparts, we're responsible for investigating complaints and then managing disciplinary proceedings before the
Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council and supporting those bodies. Um, we investigate complaints about current and former members and also certain non-members who are licensed or recognised by NZICA in accordance with statute or the NZICA rules. So that includes, for example, licensed insolvency practitioners.
Mhm. Mhm. Okay. So a big job for you both. An important job for you both. Before we dive into the complaints and conducts process I think it's worth explaining uh the names of the disciplinary bodies. You've touched on a couple there but um the names of them and how they handle complaints and investigations at CA ANZ and perhaps a bit of a brief rundown about what they do. Um, Kate, why don't you start? What's the structure look like?
So we have four main bodies. Uh, the first one is the Professional Conduct Committee, and that's responsible for, uh, receiving and initiating complaints, uh, and then investigating them. And the committee can decide not to investigate on a complaint. Uh, or if it is investigated, it will decide on the complaint outcome. And that can include referring the matter to the Disciplinary Tribunal. Um, so then we moved to the Disciplinary Tribunal, which hears and determines complaints made to it
by the Professional Conduct Committee. And we also have an Appeals Council which hears and determines any appeals of decisions of the Disciplinary Tribunal. And then lastly, we also have the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, and that has oversight responsibility for the integrity, timeliness and effectiveness of the disciplinary system as a whole.
Mhm. So a lot going on there. And Becky what about then in New Zealand for our members who are based there?
Sure. So, similarly, we have three disciplinary bodies being the Professional Conduct Committee, Disciplinary Tribunal and Appeals Council. Um, and they all have the same remit as the three bodies in Australia. Um, but in New Zealand, these are statutory bodies prescribed by the New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants Act. Um our process is overseen by the NZICA Regulatory Board.
That board has a slightly different remit, slightly broader remit than the Professional Conduct Oversight Committee, as it's NZICA's Board, um, responsible for its statutory functions. Um, but its core responsibility is to oversee the regulation discipline of members in New Zealand. But it also has some additional responsibilities, for example, prescribing
the Code of ethics and other standards. Um, the other core role in the complaints process, and this applies both to New Zealand and Australia, is the reviewer of complaints. So that sort of separate um from the three main bodies. Um, but either the member or the complainant involved in the complaint can seek a review of certain decisions of the
Professional Conduct Committee by the reviewer of complaints. Uh, reviewers are independent lawyers and they can look at, um, sort of the process followed by the committee and the reasonableness of its decisions and make recommendations to the committee. So it's it's it's not quite a full appeal process. Um, but it's, um, a bit of a recourse outside of the, um, Professional Conduct Committee's decision making process to, um, look at their decisions.
I can imagine if members are listening along right now, all of that might sound quite complex and, um, indeed, um, quite intense to get your head around. So maybe we take a step back. Um, Becky, I'm thinking if I was a member of the public, um, let's look at it from that side first. If I was a member of the public and I wanted to make a complaint about a chartered accountant, how would I do that?
Sure. So, um, it's very easy. Uh, first thing to do, uh, jump on our website and have a bit of a read up about the complaints process in the first instance. Um, on the website, we've got a complaint form that they'll need to download. Uh, complaints have to be made in writing and submitted with a signed copy of our form. Uh, generally, we need evidence, um, to be provided in support of the complaint. Then that could cover a whole range of things. It's going to depend on the nature of the issues
and the relationship between the parties. But, um, for example, it might be things like the engagement letter. Um, copies of relevant correspondence or contracts, um, financial statements or reports or trust deeds or whatever. So relevant evidence um supported, supporting a signed complaint form and that can be either emailed
or posted to us. And we then sort of kick off the review of that process and look at whether it's within our jurisdiction and, and then whether we're going to investigate it.
So then Kate on that what happens next. So the complaint comes in to CA ANZ and then what do you guys do?
So, um, once we've gathered, gathered, um, the evidence from the complainant in support of the complaint, um, if it's going to be investigated, we will write to the member and seek their response to the complaint. And we then have an exchange of correspondence with the member and the complainant until enough information about the the issues in the complaint is gathered. And at that stage, it will all
be considered by the Professional Conduct Committee. And and the committee will either make a decision in relation to the complaint or initiate further investigations itself.
So then imagine um, I guess then let's, let's I guess we're, we're going to assume then that it is going to be pursued by the Professional Conduct Committee or what we, we call the PCC, save us having to say it every single time. Um, we live in a world of acronyms, don't we, Becky? What happens after that?
So at first instance, once we've done our investigation, um, the complaint is considered by the committee on the papers. Um, after that, in some cases, the committee may, um, hold something called a case conference. And that's an in person investigative meeting with the parties, um, usually members are required
to attend sometimes um, and complainants may be invited to attend. Uh, and they're really looking at so they're wanting to discuss the complaint, um, with them and determining whether or not it's serious enough to be referred to the disciplinary tribunal. Um, sometimes either before that or after that process, the committee may also appoint an external investigator or expert to assist with, um,
particular sort of line of inquiries. So, um, that's often if there's sort of like a very technical element to it, say an assurance complaint, um, or maybe something that has a forensic component. Um, or they may order a practice review. Uh, if a complaint is serious, it will be referred to the disciplinary tribunal for hearing. Um, the tribunal process is certainly a more formal legal proceeding. Um, uh, the PCC bears the onus of proof as the prosecutor and formal
charges and evidence are presented. Um members are often legally represented, and it's usually in their best interests to be. Um, there's a presumption at those hearings, um, both before the Disciplinary Tribunal and the Appeals Council. Um, that the matter will be heard in public. So we may have the
media attending or members of the public. Um, and also, there's a presumption that decisions are published with the member's name and location, although, of course, members can make submissions against this, um, you know, a separate name suppression application if there's good reasons. Um, and then if either the member or the PCC is unhappy with the decision of the Disciplinary Tribunal, they can lodge an appeal to the
Appeals Council. Um, appeals can cover a range of things, so it might be the substantive decision about the liability. So whether or not the case has been proved, um, or it could be decisions around the sanctions, um, or the costs orders or um, also publication or declining suppression or whatever. So there's a range of things that can be appealed. And it might not be all parts of the tribunal's decision. Um, and in New Zealand, um after the and this is different from Australia, um, but it's
because of the sort of statutory nature of our process. Um, if a party is ultimately unhappy with the Appeals Council's decision, there's ultimate recourse to the courts via judicial review.
Mhm. Mhm. Kate. It sounds like a very, um, layered, um and thorough process. How long does that usually take.
So it really does depend on the complexity of the matter and also how responsive um, members and complainants are. But we typically say um, it usually takes between about four and nine months for complaint investigations, uh, to be completed, but of course it would be a longer time period, you know, if the matter is referred to the Disciplinary Tribunal, because that's a whole that's a new process and that, you know, that's going to take a few months to
complete as well. Um, but of course, um, some complex complaints will take, will take a long time to complete, but we always aim to do them as fast to, you know, to get through them as fast as possible because we understand it's such a stressful process.
Mhm. Mhm. That's right. Yes that's right. Everyone's looking for the outcome to be delivered as quickly as humanly possible so to speak. And what is it that you are measuring members against in all of this. How do how do you know what it is as the benchmark that that members should be behaving against?
So for Australian and rest of the world members outside of New Zealand, um, the by laws is the critical starting point in relation to their conduct. And for New Zealand based members, it's the NZICA rules, and the By-Laws and the Rules incorporate the the Code of Ethics and the other professional and technical standards. And so that's the starting point. Um, and that's, that's that, that they're the documents that sort of set the standards by which members conduct is examined.
And for example, Kate, then if someone does make a complaint, you often let people know that actually if it doesn't fit in with our By-Laws, you can't investigate.
Yeah that's right. And sometimes there's other more appropriate bodies that might actually have jurisdiction for a particular type of conduct. But it has to be, um, a the conduct that we investigate needs to be something that's covered by the bylaws and rules and the various codes and regulations, etc..
So as a professional membership body, we've got our own remit and that is the lane that we, um, are required to to stay in. Becky, what is it that members can do to ensure a smooth process for themselves? And I'm thinking, um, you know, as as Kate had said, it can be a stressful process for them. What what do they need to be able to do?
Um, first and foremost, I always tell people, don't panic. Um, you know, receiving a complaint is stressful, but, you know, you need to just, um, take a breath before you respond. Um, you should be responsive. So that includes, um, being careful to comply with time frames in which responses might be requested. Um, and if you need more time, just ask and tell us why. And we're usually pretty flexible about that. Um, members need to be very clear in their response and
provide all relevant evidence. So if, um, if certain questions have been asked or they've been, um, required to provide particular documents or information, you should pay attention to that. Um, and and seek to understand the process. So we're always happy to explain it. And there's also other avenues of support. So, um, there's the CA Advisory Group, um, for New Zealand members.
There's um, the member care function. Um, and there's also, um, recourse to technical advice if you need it, um, available through CA ANZ. Um, in some cases, it's very appropriate for members to seek legal advice. Um, there's a free hour of legal advice through the CA Advisory Group. Um, they should certainly consider talking to their professional indemnity insurers. Um, if they have insurance. Um, but just coming back to
the response, the key thing is to demonstrate insight. So I always tell people if you don't agree with the complaint, it's appropriate to defend things robustly. But that needs to be done courteously, professionally, and, you know, being careful about the tone that you take in responding and remembering that your audience, um, at first instance is going to be your peers on the PCC and also the lay members that sit on that. But, um, at worst, it could
go right the way through the process. So tone is very important. Um, if you do think that, um, you could have done something better, putting your hand up and saying that, um, goes a very long way. Ultimately, um, you know, the disciplinary bodies want to make sure that members are complying with the ethics. And a significant part of that is, um, having insight about, you know, where you could have done a bit more.
Um, self-reflection. Yeah. Always useful. Yeah, yeah. Say you're sorry. Go ahead. Becky.
I was just going to say that, um, sometimes it's hard to apologize, and often that's actually all that a client, if it's a client or a, you know, member of the public that's complained, often they actually just want a simple apology.
Kate is there anything like you'd like to add on that.
No I think that covers it all. Um, just take it seriously uh, and think through sort of all the angles.
Look, we're almost out of time. Um, I did just want to perhaps, um, you know, wrap up with saying, what is it that might then be, um, an outcome, um, a possible outcome if someone is actually proven to have breached the bylaws or the NZICA Rules of the Code of Ethics. Kate. What what is it that a member may expect to happen?
So for the most serious matters, referral to the Disciplinary Tribunal and a range of sanctions can be imposed by the tribunal. So that does include termination or suspension of membership. Might include fines, um, a censure, a requirement that you have quality review or additional training. Um, and um, at the professional conduct committee, um members can agree a um some the imposition of disciplinary sanctions with um, the committee
and the committee can impose similar sanctions by agreement. So a censure, a fine, also a quality review. And the committee can also um for um at at the lower end, impose a caution or a professional reminder or, or in appropriate complaints, just decide to take no further action.
Mhm mhm. And look the members of CA ANZ will hopefully remember at the end of last year we did hold a member vote to strengthen and further, um, amplify and reform and bring together and align our By-Laws and the NZICA rules. And that was a successful vote, which the fines that prompted me to think that we did actually increase the the amount of fines that could be, um, handed out to firms. Um, in, in response to an, a, a
firm event that was found to be proven. Look, I will put a link to the information that we have on our website on how to make a complaint. So if anyone wants to go and find out more about the process, they can. Good point out there Becky. In regards to the CA Advisory Group, we've done previous podcast episodes on that, so I'll whack a link to that in the show notes, as well as the links on where you can find that on the website, and anything else that Kate and Becky think that I should whack
in the show notes. I'll put a link to that as well, including a link to the Decision Register on our website and Acuity magazine, which is where you can actually find out about our recent conduct decisions. Before we go, final thought from you, Becky. And then final thought from you, Kate. Becky, you go first.
I would just say it's along the don't panic lines. Um, you know, it can be very scary. And hearing, um, things like the outcomes, termination and suspension and fines and all of that, um, can sound daunting. The reality is that, um, you know, we get, um, you know, it's relatively few members annually who get those, um, really serious outcomes. And, um, just because a complaint is going to, um, is sent to you doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be an
adverse decision. So take it seriously, but put yourself in the best foot forward, um, as far as responding to it and, um, you know, problem shared is a problem halved.
And I would just add, uh, have a read of some of the disciplinary decisions. There are some great tips there of things to think about your own practice. And um, and, you know, the situations members have got themselves into, there's a lot to be learnt from looking at those decisions. So, um, have a look at the links.
That's a really, really good idea. That is all we have time for. If you would like to get in touch with the podcast email podcast@charteredaccountantsanz.com. And of course follow the pod in your favourite podcast app. Let's start a conversation. Thank you Becky and Kate for being my experts on Small Firm, Big Impact.
Thank you.
Thanks a lot.
Bye bye.