Alexa: [00:00:00] What does it mean to truly listen to the people that we are working with, not just to their vocal instrument, but to their entire person?
What are some of those visible outward clues that we might deem to be a technical issue actually telling us? Could it be something psychosomatic?
It's the return of Stephen King to the podcast who is now registered with the British Association of Counseling and Psychotherapy and the Body Psychotherapy Network.
Stephen is here to help us understand his journey from a vocal coach into psychology, to talk about psychology and the voice, how we can include some body psychotherapy in our vocal studios without a psychology degree, and of course to tell us all about his new publication, the Handbook of Vocal Massage, a Relational Approach, which he co-wrote with Robert Price. Stephen, welcome back.
For Christmas, my sister bought me a flip calendar of [00:01:00] Shakespearean insults and I know that's a really weird way to start an interview 'cause it almost sounds like I'm about to just flock loads of insults at you or offend you for the next however long. But that's not, that's not true. Although today's is actually quite a good one.
Dispute not with her, she is lunatic from Richard III. Wonderful. So everyone can throw that out, whoever they like today.
Stephen: I think my favorite one is, uh, I flick my thumb at you, sir. I think, I can't remember what that's from. Maybe Romeo and Juliet, I think. I flick my thumb at you, sir.
Alexa: I You can do that in the supermarket when someone is hovering over the rotisserie chickens and you just want one.
Yeah, yeah. But the point of me saying that was that on the back of today's was a little mindfulness task, which was all about body awareness. And I thought, oh, okay. That feels a little apt for what we're talking about in terms of body psychology. Body [00:02:00] psychotherapy and relative or relational approach to therapy.
And it was becoming aware of how your body is whilst driving. And the daily extra, which they're called on the back of the calendar was like, are you gripping the steering wheel? Are your shoulders tight? Is your belly held? And how that then can impact better driving. And not that I want to make the voice seem like a machine.
I remember when we were speaking to Jeremy Ryan Mossman, he was saying about how coming away from that analogy is probably more beneficial than thinking of ourselves as machinery rather than living vessels. So firstly, before we dive into the big topics, what pulled you into the world of psychology and what kind of psychosomatic links have you found in singers?
Stephen: Those are two huge questions. Um, basically I, I've, I've come to a phase, [00:03:00] deep wisdom Alexa, right? Which is everything is psychology. And I, I am willing to change my mind on that when I have some new evidence. But I think, I think there are only three great discoveries in the, in the world, in history, right? Copernicus saying, we are not the centre of the universe. Darwin saying, we are not the center of our own uh, uh, of, you know, species. We, we are not it, we are not the king. And Freud saying, you know what? We are not even the centre of our own mind.
And whatever opinions any of the listeners viewers have about Freud, [00:04:00] I think just park them for a moment. Because Freud is everywhere. I mean, everywhere. If you've ever said the phrase 'daddy issues', that's Freud man. If you've ever done a Freudian slip, you know where you say one thing and mean your mother.
That's, you know, the, these concepts, they, they permeate our, our way and psychoanalytic thinking is why we have the Godfather movies. I mean, you know, that's, that's psychoanalysis in practice right there, you know, the Matrix. It's do, are you willing to do what you've always done or are you now ready to change your [00:05:00] entire self?
Because if you are, you will never be the same. And that's the paradox of it. And I had an amazing career as a vocal coach, really, you know, and it accelerated at a rate of knots and, um, got to travel the world doing it. And it's, it, it was cool. But there was something I just couldn't get away from, which is that when people were coming to me on a, in a one-to-one setting, I, I couldn't help but feel that in being with their voice I was sort of missing something about their, their self.
And so, so I guess how I came to psychotherapy [00:06:00] was because there was a point in my life where I realised I didn't know how to, how to be the same anymore. There, there was something in me that, that felt compelled to shift and I had no idea what that was or what that could be. And, and to be honest, I didn't even know it was possible.
And I, um, was speaking at an event, an Industry Minds event in London, uh, after I, I think after I won the healthcare Provider of the year award for Voice Care Centre. There was a psychotherapist there speaking. I thought, wow, he's got some good shit to say. That's really cool. That's, that's sort of very eloquent.
I don't really think I understand it, but it sounds, sounds like something I should probably [00:07:00] think about. And I had 24 sessions with him. And my life changed humongously as a result. 24 hours, just a day, a day's worth of hours. I felt like I didn't really know who I was because what I realised early on in that process, but I didn't have the words for it then, but I do now, is that the way in which I had gone about my life was my defense of my life.
Of course, of course I was gonna be a massively successful vocal coach and employ people and have businesses and like [00:08:00] there was no other way my life was gonna go because ultimately that was what I needed to keep myself safe. And it just so happens that the success driver matches up with capitalism really well.
So you sort of hide in plain sight and then people go, wow, aren't you doing well at such a young age? Gosh, I can't believe it. And then that empty void inside me still wouldn't be fulfilled. And so then I try and do the next big thing.
And then, you know, I, I remember when, um,, Jenevora and I launched the Vocal Health First Aid, you know, 4,000 people have done that now, 32 different countries, something like that. I mean, it's huge. I don't, I, I think I'm right in saying that there's not been a, a sort of vocal education like that, set up since sort of [00:09:00] Estill really in that sense, in, in that, that breadth of educational reach. And I felt nothing.
And that was during my training, that process. And so when you are, when you are in training as a psychotherapist and sort of bearing your soul to these strangers in this room, you know, people who are your cohort, there's a process that goes on parallel to the outside world. Which is when you are in, in the space, in the learning space and you go, yeah, I've done this thing and I feel empty inside. And then everybody looks at you or everybody looked at me and went, but how can you feel empty inside? That's amazing.
And of course that mirrors what happens outside in the world. Only in there you can go, well, hold on a second. No, I, I, [00:10:00] something's wrong here. I, you are doing that thing that everybody out there does.
And then like, sometimes you like get into a massive fight about it and then, you know, the professor has to sort of come and break it up and it's all sort of quite gnarly. But that's where I began to reconcile something, which is that people with a voice problem are not heard. I mean, at, at, at the very core of it. They, they cannot be heard. And so when, when their voice is quote unquote working fine, when they've been to the ENT and quote unquote, nothing's wrong and they cannot communicate what they need to communicate, like, I can't imagine how distressing that must be. I can't imagine how empty you might feel just in the same way that, you know, setting up a [00:11:00] worldwide education platform not for profit, you know, for the good of the world, left me empty.
And so I guess, how did I come into psychotherapy? Well, through great pain and, and, and existential dread.
Now, I feel differently. I now it's funny to me, like sort of funny, isn't it? I mean, this just you and I here doing this podcast, right? And you know, before we were coming on talking about crystals and tarot. What that maybe nonsense, maybe not, maybe heresy, or maybe there's something in it, [00:12:00] but I just find that funny now. I mean, hilarious because something that I came to realise through my own analysis was that I had inadvertently in, in these defensible positions, these, these analytic defenses, we call them, or defenses operating, put myself as sort of the physician, the expert, the untouchable, whoever sort of next stop - god. People come to me and I have all the answers. That was part of my inherent grandiosity for sure, which has been dismantled over this time, thankfully. But you know, now I firmly believe that myself and my patients are we, we are both as messed up as one another other.
And it just so happens we're in a swamp and I have some fragments of the map.
[00:13:00] And I think most of what we do in voice therapy, in singing, teaching, voice pedagogy, even education, is that the professor, the expert, is sort of next to God. You know, they have the answers.
And I think psychotherapy is about the ultimate reconciliation that you are both people in a swamp. There is no expert. It doesn't exist. You know, sure. There are people who know, I mean, I've read all these books behind me. Psychoanalytic Diagnosis, the Handbook of Body Psychotherapy, EMDR, pain, clinical Voice Disorders, the Voice Clinic Handbook.
I've got lots of knowledge. Do, do I really know anything more than than [00:14:00] you, or the last patient I saw, or you know, the barista who, you know, made the most excellent double macchiato for me this morning?
I think that's false and I think that's often where most of our problems lie, psychosomatic or otherwise. And so, coming to the voice part of your question: why, you know, why voice, why the psychosomatic voice thing? Well, it's sort of what I know, right? And of course we only know what we know and we only do what we do and we only write what we know.
And so, you know, I've spent years, 10 years now with the voice, with anatomy, with vocal massage, with singing, teaching. And so that's what I know. I've, I've seen people in pain with their voice. I've seen people not heard. I've seen people voiceless, utterly voiceless. Metaphorically, or, or, or [00:15:00] physiologically.
And I find that fascinating, partly because I think ultimately we're all just trying to be heard.
Training in body psychotherapy. So my, my original training was in integrative counseling, now, body psychotherapy. Being able to recognize that the body plays an important role is, seems obvious to me. Unfortunately because of our dualistic sort of NHS models of things. If you are a psychotherapist, that means, you know, you are providing therapy to the psyche, except the Greek sort of definition of psyche is soul.[00:16:00]
And, and so I sort of wonder what we are doing if we don't include the body in some of that.
Alexa: I have a friend, I've spoken about her before on the podcast. She's also a singing teacher, really great singing teacher, and she's been really open on her social media platforms about suffering C-P-T-S-D and the vocal experiences that have come with that, whether that's around the anniversary of the trauma she experienced.
Her name's Claire Delaney. You should go check her out for sure. If we are working with somebody who is, showing a particular sign in the voice or the body, or psychologically, they, they may have given us an inkling that there's been some experience in the past where maybe in rooms of authority or they've been told that in some way that their voice isn't deserving to be heard, how can we as singing teachers play a positive role with them? You mentioned before about being [00:17:00] ready and accepting the change. I know there's that famous quote, isn't there? That the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and ex and um, expecting a different result. So how can we play a role in that as singing teachers when, when a lot of us aren't psychotherapists or trained in psychology, but keep within our lane, but acknowledge it?
Stephen: Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I think I, two things. One is, I don't really know. Secondly is, I'm gonna guess, which is: what would it take for, for you, the singing teacher, you know, the, the sort of mythical singing teacher we're talking about here to, to really hear them not, not to listen to their voice, but to really see if they can hear [00:18:00] it.
Uh, what, what would that be like? You know, I, I think back to, to like the early lessons. The first, I don't know, thousand lessons I taught. I, I wonder about that process. I was reflecting on somebody who I taught at a drama school. She had been kicked out of her family home, was living with her boyfriend and commuting like two hours in each day and two hours home, and her voice was tight and inflexible. And nothing, and, and I was pretty clued up at this point. I mean, nothing I could do could, um, excite enough change for long enough. You know, we'd get somewhere in the, in the session and then, uh, I [00:19:00] remember feeling like it was all gonna be undone as soon as she got on the train back to wherever she was going.
And I sort of wonder who really heard her in that process. Like, I was listening and I was trying to fix her voice. I was an operator. Not an interactor. And you know, I, I was pretty person centered back then, but I don't think to the effect of what she needed, which I think probably looked like a very different singing lesson, and probably one that she didn't know she needed either.
My guess my, you know, of course this is all fantasy, I've got no idea whether this is true, right. Which is that, what would it take to slow down to, to really take our time, you know, [00:20:00] imagining her commuting four hours a day, rushing to the first train, rushing to the change of platforms, rushing into the drama school in the morning. Just that what that is in the nervous system.
I sort of wondered if we'd just breathed for half an hour. You know, maybe she just needed to take a deep breath.
And, and of course, you know, probably nonsense, right? I mean, maybe, maybe she had muscle tension dysphonia. But muscle tension dysphonia doesn't come from nowhere. , I, I get into trouble when I say this, which is, you know, when medicine says something is idiopathic, the idea is there's no reason why [00:21:00] just showed up.
Nothing just shows up. Nothing shows up. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, there's this thing that, that defies what we know about physics and about even about, you know, you wanna look at things a bit more quantumly. I, I just think that's not how it is. And at the moment, I dunno if you can see, I've got this, the light's really great in here. I've got this little rash on my skin across my forehead, you know, four months ago came up, right? So I'm thinking, what, what's this about? And I go to the doctor and they say, oh, it's probably rosacea. I say, okay.
And they give me an antibiotic cream cool. And it's tackling the [00:22:00] symptom. I changed my skincare. I've now got a skincare regime, sort of very mindful, very lovely, but fuck is expensive, you know, hyaluronic acid, man, what's that about? Anyway, I'm doing this diligently and then one morning I was in here in the clinic and doing a, um, face to camera piece for Instagram and I thought, Stephen, you look sore.
And my bias immediately went to you look like the sort of person I wouldn't go and see for health and wellness. You don't look well. So then I deleted the video and I didn't post on Instagram for two weeks and my face cleared up immensely. By the way, I had dropped the antibiotic cream. This is not causative, right, correlative. Because when I, when I really sort of introspected it, I didn't wanna [00:23:00] be face to camera. My body was protecting me on some level.
And so, like muscle tension dysphonia, I don't think is just from nowhere. I think it's a fantastic and troubling self-protection mechanism. And ultimately that shows us something and, and, and then the practice of psychotherapy is about noticing small things. There is no grand thing. Alright, sure. You know, we can go through awful experiences and traumas, you know, big, big things. Revisiting that is revisiting a memory of the thing. That's how memory works. We don't go back to the thing. We go to a memory of the thing.
Alexa: And you can't [00:24:00] always trust the memory can you.
Stephen: And so then we have to reconcile something about how we create our memories, because our memories are created to keep us safe. Protective mechanism. Well that feels too good to ignore to me when it comes to the voice. Cause it's all personality in the end.
Alexa: And there's that amazing book, isn't there? The Body Keeps the Score, which shows up some of those things. We've also had a great podcast with one of our level five graduates, um, Dr. Lydia Stone, she's a psychologist and she talks about how she works with adoptive children and those sorts of things. And just kind of sharing a story just off, off the
back of yours, I, I remember my Mum sent me some pictures she found of when we were little, me and my sister, and it's so funny. It was such [00:25:00] a long child. I was so thin and scrawny. But my shoulders are right up to my ears. And I remember from, I think I was born with anxiety, and so it's, it, it was just there. You can see it in pictures of when I'm like eight years old that I'm holding so much stuff. And it's only now that I understand, you know, what goes on in my brain that I understand what that little girl is going through. So we, I guess we can pick up on the signs, it's not necessarily because somebody's got shoulder tension, so we are gonna wiggle it out. It might be that there's a, there's an actual psychological hold in the body.
Stephen: Yeah. And, and look, Reich talked about this. Wilhelm Reich, who was one of the founders of body psychotherapy in his book Character Analysis. Good luck if you can, uh, get hold of a copy. But, um, he talks about muscular armour and he says, you know, [00:26:00] there are, there are roughly seven points of armour in the body: the eyes, the mouth and throat, the upper chest, the diaphragm region, the pelvic region, and the knees.
And he sort of goes through it and says, you know, if, you know, we, we have things in common parlance, right? They're a bit uptight, they're a bit anal about things, or, or I, you know, am sick to my stomach or there's something coming up for me or I can't get this taste out of my mouth. I mean, you know, these, these things which, which have a physiological root, but they're also a metaphorical thing. Cat got your tongue, you know, , there are thousands of them. And his writings on, on that is, is is that essentially [00:27:00] we, we build this armour, we construct it, our personality constructs it without our knowledge really. And then we wear it proudly until it gets too heavy. And then to bring it to an illustrative point, you know, somebody coming to see me at the Voice Care Centre will say, but Steve, and I've always sung this way, why now? And, and on some level, I, I, I feel it's like, maybe that's exactly why you've always sung this way. This, the, the armor is as it always was, it's too heavy now. It's too tight. And, and so now it's time to change that. Of course, the problem is, is that I'm, you know, a murky man in a swamp. [00:28:00] So, whereas, you know, eight years ago I knew what to do. Now I have absolutely no idea.
And for some people that's terrifying, right? But remember what I said is, is that I think most of our problems are that we are looking for, you know, God for want of a better term, you know, a guide somebody to, you know, I mean that in the small G sense, I hope you understood. I hope that reads, you know. You know, there's a great paper on Freud called, who's Your Daddy?
And it's like this idea of like, you know, psychotherapists love coming back to Freud because he's like the ultimate untouchable father figure. The all-knowing, all powerful. I've got his 24 volumes of first edition there on the bookshelf. You know, I can sort of look at them and flick through them and, you know, there we go.
My analyst [00:29:00] is a fifth generation Freudian. So, you know, five, five analysts ago it was Freud. I'm directly connected. Six people connect me to Freud. And so then it's like, wow, you know, cool, shit. But actually it's not like that at all. You know, uh, uh, we are, we are looking for that ultimate parental figure or, or the person to sort of help us navigate this world.
And then we, we create armour by which to try and do that. To protect ourselves from the ills of it all.
Alexa: When it comes to how we apply, maybe technical understanding then or technical exercise. It could be that the student has come into a session and they're very good at playing the role of, I'm calm, everything's fine.
The other day I had a student come into me and say, we were watching [00:30:00] something the other day at home on tv, and there was this therapist on there and me and my friend looked at each other and both went, that's Alexa, because of her really calm energy. And I thought, you've got to be fucking kidding me, inside. It's not like that, but. I obviously can hide it in some way or, or at least, and I'm glad that I can for them 'cause it's about them in the session.
But I thought, what if we have one of those students who are just really good at hiding it? And then we go, okay, there seems to be what I would perceive an issue in this register, this articulator, the breathing system, whatever it might be.
And we work on that for say, however long, however long a piece of string is. But they're actually going through something in their life, which we aren't aware of. But then it, it passes over time and you see a shift in that technical area. Well, are we actually working on technique in that area or was it just because [00:31:00] something shifted in their life that made that technical thing change?
And how are we, how are we ever really meant to, not necessarily know, but have a full kind of helicopter view of what we're actually doing.
Stephen: I don't know, but let's think together about this, because I think you're onto something here, which is ultimately we don't really matter.
I I, I don't think what we do is the important thing because people will change. But if you know how to get somebody to change, please tell me. Please let me in on that.
Alexa: No, no clue, Stephen.
Stephen: But, you know, I'll, I'll go to, I'll go to a psychotherapy conference and there'll be some, you know, esteem doctor. [00:32:00] So, so-and-so, whoever, goo garb, four PhDs, you know, lecturing on the thing.
I sort of go up to them and I'll look in their eyes and I'll say with my eyes, do you know. And they'll look back at me and say, I wonder if this guy knows. And then we stand there both pretending that we know, and then the, the it ends. And I think there's something about that that happens in the, in the pedagogy, me teacher, you student, therefore I know you don't know.
And look, I, I think technical exercises work. We have enough data, I think to say that, you know, Chadley Ballantyne's WEIRD RRR you know, for, for tongue work for example. Right. [00:33:00] Cool. Great. We can see how that works anatomically, acoustically. So you do it in a session and they change, and then they come back the next session and have entirely forgotten everything.
It's not landed in their body. They've got, they've got no way, in, no way back to it. Well, then meaningful change hasn't occurred. And, and psychotherapy is about meaningful change, which is why it takes so long. You know, I think my, my colleagues in in the field of healthcare sort of laugh that I might work with somebody two or three times a week for 18 months.
That's a lot of work. But you see, because it's not about what we do, it's about how we are. 'cause ultimately I'm trying to help them understand that I'm just in the swamp with them.[00:34:00]
And then they'll come back week on, week on, or, or, you know, day on, day on day and say, so Stephen, what do you think I should do about this? And I say, I don't know. What do you think you should do about it? And then they say, well, that's not what I pay your extortionate fee for. And I say, actually it is because there has never been more advice available to us, and yet we have never been sicker.
And so I, I, I think, you know, maybe part of it, you know, how do I show up? How do I hear this person is, I don't know. I don't know, but I'm curious about this. I wonder what, I wonder what that is for you, you know, with you're coming back in week on week. I see that we [00:35:00] get it in the session, but then it goes, what, what's that about?
Do you, do, you know? And they might say, I don't know. And then, well, that's the armour.
Alexa: And isn't that such the place where we, we need to just check ourselves before it gets into, well, you are obviously just not interested or you are lazy, or, uh, I'm doing something, I'm a crap teacher. Or there's so much more to it than any of those labels.
Stephen: Totally. And look, you know, I think coming back to how Freud influences everything, having a psychoanalytic lens to anything. If you are a plumber, if you're an acupuncturist, a tree surgeon, voice pedagogy, you know, a, a therapist, the process is, is this: I'm not really sure that I matter. I. Therefore, the fact that we are showing up [00:36:00] together is the thing they will or will not change as a result. And that has almost nothing to do with me.
And if you can get to that, anybody out there listening to this with imposter syndrome, that goes because you stop thinking that you're doing such a great job. And imposter syndrome, it, I have a suspicion it is actually a, a great, um, great fear of the unknown. But from a place of grandiosity, I, I can help these people. I know I can, I just don't know enough.
Alexa: It is a really interesting one 'cause I just think about if, I'm sure you've had, you know, cards from people or testimonials and whilst people may say, you gave me some really great tools, the thing they mostly [00:37:00] say is about how you made them feel in the room.
Stephen: Well, yeah, and, and I guess ultimately, this is why I think I come back to that, the idea that, um, my teacher of psychotherapy said, which was basically if people have a good hobby and one good friend who just sits there and shuts up and listens and doesn't offer advice, you don't need therapy.
Like too many people are in therapy. They, they just, they, they need a good, honest friend who's just there and goes, man, that sounds really shit. I'm sorry. Anyway, another pint. How many of us have that person? I mean, I do now. I didn't when I was living in London, you know, 'cause I was looking for somebody who could contribute to my life in some way, or, you know, they've got to be a, somebody, you know, like me.
'cause I'm a [00:38:00] somebody in London with my, you know, 3000 pound coat. Fucking nonsense.
Alexa: Where was that from, your coat?
Stephen: Uh, Alexander McQueen.
Alexa: Alright, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephen: But, you know, a a and, and I think that, that sense of it, and, you know, the good hobby, it's like when, when people come to me now and, um, you know, there'll, there'll be some sort of intake form.
Right. Alright, so tell me about your voice. Well, this, this, this, this, this. When was the last time you, you had meaningful time off? Oh, I don't, because I'm always working to afford the rent in London so that I can, you know, pay for my Netflix subscription where I watch, you know, Ricky Gervais abuse trans people and then get really frustrated about it.
And then, you know, write angry things online and then, you know, try and then I'm like, well, hold on a second. That has nothing to do with your voice and yet everything to do with [00:39:00] your voice, right? 'cause, 'cause what's that like to not even have time, space to go and do something for you, just for you, something that's, that's nonsense that you get nothing material from.
And, and look, I I, I say this with the lens of, um, the hierarchical, capitalistic shit that we're in.
And when that bit comes into therapy, it's complicated, because people can't just get a hobby. They can't just have a meaningful friend, 'cause they're too damn busy surviving. But look, here's the nuance bit, is I acknowledge that a hundred percent and, and I'm sickened and enraged by it. But [00:40:00] that's not the job of psychotherapy.
That's for politicians and, and people, psychotherapy is, I hear you, but what's going on inside?
Why, why can't your voice be heard in this? Do you see what I mean? It's nuanced, isn't it? And then when the 50 minutes are up, fuck the government, let's go do something about it. But in that 50 minutes while society and politics. Influence what's going on in somebody's mind. Undoubtedly, it's, it's not the vessel for change in there, although arguably, if the only work is in a work, maybe all of our politicians, et cetera, just with a good dose of meaningful psychotherapy, might do something.
Alexa: Maybe you should hand out your business card to 10 Downing Street or something. [00:41:00]
So can you describe some of the, the kind of practical things that we might be able to do as, as us teachers without having kind of any psychology degree, uh, that, that we can implement into our sessions?
Stephen: Yeah, so something I think, which is, is probably really useful, uh, is around how we ground.
For me, grounding is not a spiritual practice. It's not a nervous system, mechanistic practice. It's sort of somewhere in between. It's the ultimate state changer. It's like we're going from there to here because in this half an hour, hour, 90 minutes, whatever, we are here to do this thing, and I want to hear you. I want to hear what you've got to [00:42:00] say.
However, that process unfolds, whether it's one hand on the belly, one hand on the heart, and we just breathe together for 30 seconds, whether it's, you know, something more movement or somatic based, like imagine this: you've got a student who really grinds your gears, right? Let's imagine this. 'cause you or I have never had a student like that have we? No. Um, and the first thing that you do, instead of getting them in and going, welcome, I'm so pleased to see you and looking at the clock every one minute, is that you, if this is all appropriate and, and consensual, right? Stand next to them so that the side of the left side of your body is in contact with the [00:43:00] right side of theirs, and you do a trust game and you say, just let's support each other's weight and we'll see if we can take the middle feet away.
Now imagine what that might do as a grounding exercise for you and for them. Do, do we trust each other in this space? Can we connect to each other in this space? Do, do you grind my gears because of you or because of me in this space? Because ultimately you are the teacher who's living your life by that clock.
Man, I wish I could go back in time and, and get some of those hours back, because that, that's part of being heard, isn't it? Is somebody, um, [00:44:00] being a certain way which evokes something in you, and then you might not be able to really arrive for them, and, and they might be asking you, not consciously, but they might be asking you to really hear them 'cause they believe you are the only person who might, and you are sitting there watching the clock, which by the way is probably what happens to them everywhere else in their life too.
And so can you move to a grounded place of compassion, person centeredness, unconditional positive regard. You really do that and just be with that person and be like, wow, my gears are ground. I just wonder about that.
So yeah, so, so something, something grounding, something [00:45:00] breathing, something somatic, but, but again, not as like a, this is gonna do some magical goo gaa thing or some nervous system, doda, whatever. It's just, can you and I be in this space to do this piece of work together?
Alexa: I've seen singers come in, I've, I've done my warmup. Let's get straight to song. And actually, I think let's just, let's just take that a little bit of time to just get into a new setup. Like, great that you've done a warmup, but you've just come from this class or you've just come from work. There's a whole load of stuff that we might just want to just a acknowledge or let go of.
Stephen: For sure. And, and look, what I have seen is that patterns in here play out as patterns out there. So coming in, you know, right, I've done my warmup. Let's, let's get, let's do the thing. And they might be the exact person in their life who sort of has always done the thing before the thing [00:46:00] and then might wonder why they come to a voice problem, let's say later on in life, I'd say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I, I always warm up and it's like, cool. How. They say, oh, well, I do this two hour YouTube video that I found and I do it twice a day and da da da da. And then it's like, well, how did this go unchecked for so long? Because nobody heard them. Nobody went, show me your warmup. Let's really look at that.
I'd, I'd love, I'd love to really know what you're doing because I, I want to be part of this. Just as a thought.
Alexa: A huge congratulations really is in order because you have written or co-written another book this time with Robert Price called The Handbook of Vocal Massage, A Relational Approach. So congratulations on [00:47:00] that. How does it feel to have another one under the belt?
Stephen: Well, no longer empty inside. You'll be pleased to know.
Alexa: I'm very pleased to know. Um,
Stephen: I did, I when, when it arrived, it's, it's quite a beautiful thing. when it arrived and you can't quite get a sense of the, of the feel of it, but it's like matte, it's like so beautiful and, um, I felt really proud of it.
Alexa: Yeah. Honestly. Oh, that's amazing.
Stephen: I'm really meaningfully proud of it. And the, the concepts in it are, you know, it's 200 pages. It's taken five years to write. We did a first draft and Robert and I read it and we got to, um, the end, uh, I'll just write. Yeah. So we gotta the end. And I was like, I feel like there's something missing. He was like, yeah, yeah.
And I said, Robert, how [00:48:00] do you feel about us doing a sort of, and here's where we think this might be going. He went, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well why don't you, um, why don't you do something about that? And so the last chapter is called Establishing Relational Vocal Massage as a method within body psychotherapy.
Because what I came to realise is that what I had been doing all along is sort of psychotherapy with the body. The dispositional ontology, the person centered work, the biopsychosocial practice, the consent matrix that I, um, co-authored with Lydia Flock, you know, the equation framework. This is all, um, traditionally body psychotherapy.
I just didn't know it [00:49:00] 'cause until I came to formally study it, I was like, oh, I, I know this. I, ah, yes, I, I've got an idea of this. So, yeah. So there was something really, really beautiful about sort of writing it and then going, I think I know where this is going now. Um, so yeah, so thank you for the congratulations.
It means a lot and um, yes, it was a lot of work.
Alexa: Yeah, I can imagine it was. And of course Stuart Harris who did your illustrations for previous books. Yes. Is the illustrator on this one as well. And you showed us some lovely pictures. Yes.
Stephen: There's some beautiful, um, I won't be able to find now, flick through quickly this view of the tongue.
Dunno if you can see that. It's from the back out the mouth.
Alexa: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Stephen: And like getting a view of the tongue from the soft palette. [00:50:00] There just isn't one.
Alexa: There is now.
Stephen: There is now. And so yeah, so, so Stewart's done some amazing, very anatomically detailed, accurate work and, and just his beautiful style.
And um, yeah, so it's available through New Voice Publishing. , I think you've got the link.
Alexa: Got the link. We'll pop that in the show notes. Yeah, so people can get their copies. And we had Robert Price from the podcast about eight months ago and he was telling us about, um, self massage, guiding us through some self massage exercises.
And he also told us about his first experience of massage. I think he said it was around like a, an aromatherapy experience, but when he had that, he had, uh, lots of memory recall of positive times that he'd been touched in his life.
So what was your first experience of massage?
Stephen: My first experience of massage was not good. and perhaps this is the ultimate defense, right? I need to [00:51:00] dedicate my life to doing this so that nobody goes through what I went through. , I left my, my first vocal massage damaged.
Alexa: Oh, wow.
Stephen: And it took years for my voice to recover, I mean, fully recover if I was touched.
And in fact, Robert was the person who I worked that out with, after, so he came and did the training, and I thought his hands were incredibly skillful in his approach. You know, really beautiful. And so when I invited him to work at the Voice Care Centre, I said, look, but as a sort of interview, do you think you can help me with this thing on the right hand side of my Cricothyroid region?
And he said, yeah, yeah. So I went along and, you know, the, the process of being then worked on, so the same [00:52:00] hold, the same pressure, and you know, another man doing it to me. Yet now, there was a whole cycle of trust. I consented to it, it felt healing and, and, and not hurtful. And so I think, you know, in, in terms of then what Zoe McFarland calls priors, you know, getting to a sense of- we have a prior sense of ourselves, a somatic map, an idea of how we are in the, in the world in 3D space, right? And Robert and I together were able to update a prior, in me, a harmful prior. And so I think often what we are doing with touch is seeking to [00:53:00] update harmful priors, but also excite meaningful, beautiful priors.
I mean, you know, being touched in a meaningful way, a consensual meaningful way is sometimes breathtaking and, and beautiful. And, and I don't think that bit is talked about enough.
Alexa: And do you think on that, because obviously consent, consent has to be a big part of it. Do you think that we are scared as teachers now to ask or even involve a bit of that in our work?
Stephen: Yeah, I, I've written about this quite extensively and I, I'm writing a new paper called, um, well, I won't tell you what it's called, but I'm writing a new paper on it, which basically is, is hopefully cementing the idea of the contract in voice pedagogy, in a, [00:54:00] um, feminist, sort of phenomenological framework, which is tricky because those two things almost cancel each other out.
Anyway, we, you know, , we'll try. But the, the thing about your question is that yes, I think we are afraid, i, I'm not afraid. I think people are afraid of the litigious aspect of touch, and gaining consent in a meaningful way is not, can I put my hand on you? It's how do we navigate this if you feel, begin to feel unsafe?
And ultimately if that happens, is there really the permission to say no? Because if there isn't, then meaningful consent hasn't been garnered and, and so, you know, [00:55:00] particularly in the States, it's illegal to touch your students if you don't have a license to touch, it's illegal. In the UK that's not the case.
Anybody can set them. Hell, anybody can set themselves up as a beauty aesthetician. I could do your Botox.
Alexa: I need it. I'll take it Stephen. If you're offering it, just stick a needle anywhere.
Stephen: Yeah, but the thing is, is, is I think about it and I go, well, I know cranial facial anatomy. I could probably do, you know?
And then it's like, how mad is that, that I could inject literal poison into your face and that be totally legal, you know? And so it's a little bit the wild west in terms of that here in the UK and therefore I think we are in a, in a place of like, it's useful but also potentially dangerous. And so I, I think including touch has to have a meaningful consent [00:56:00] with it.
And I think if touch is included, there has to be a rationale, what we will call a clinical rationale. You know, somebody coming to me, with really, really acute, acute flare up of acid reflux, I'm going to be touching their stomach if that's permissible. Yeah. Am I going to be touching the sole of their foot? I don't have a clinical rationale for that.
So yes, I think people are afraid, and I think that's, that's a shame because touch if navigated well, consensually, and that's the key bit, right? Is um, a learning, learning opportunity, a learning vessel, unlike any other 'cause, it bypasses cognition, [00:57:00] you know, there's no, oh, how am I thinking about? It's like, wow, straight to feeling.
Alexa: Part of your book title is The Relational Approach to the Vocal Massage. How do we have relational approach in vocal pedagogy then and vocal tuition? Is it the same sort of rationale?
Stephen: Well, I think, I think look, uh, the, yeah, at the heart of the relational approach is you and I in relation, and I think there are a couple of things that have to be there for that to happen.
Like there has to be a frame. You and I agreed to meet at 2:30pm on Thursday, the 10th of April on on your Zoom. So we can be in relation because of that, but we might all know that person who goes, I'll call you. Well when? I might be doing something [00:58:00] else. I might not be able to pick up. I don't know how long I'll have.
Well, right there. You can't be in as deep a relation as you and I can be here. It's not set up for it. And so how, I mean just a simple thing is how many singing teachers overrun the lesson?
Alexa: Guilty.
Stephen: But like, does that leave you fully in relation because you've broken the contract? We'll meet for 60 minutes here to here, and at the 65th minute they're walking out.
And so what does that mean then? Does that mean you've undervalued your time? You've priced it wrong. Does it mean that they are your favourite student? And so you'll give them more? Does that then impact the next person? And how does that person feel about that person being run over but you never run over with them, because they're the person who [00:59:00] grinds your gears?
And so then just in that very simple example, which is something I've done in the past, you've done, everybody will have done, it doesn't leave us in relation. And that can be difficult in therapy, right? Imagine this the 49th out of the 50 minutes and they disclose something awful. I mean something that maybe you can't even imagine how awful some of the things I've heard and it gets to 50 minutes and I say, we're at time.
Let's pick this up on Tuesday.
Alexa: Yeah. Well that's really tough.
Stephen: Imagine how much you and I would need to be in relation for that to be okay. But we only get there by me having held that boundary, held that boundary, held that boundary. So then when I say it's 50 minutes, [01:00:00] then they know I don't hate them. I don't think it's an, it's a disgusting thing that's happened or so, you know, the, the mind wanders.
I'm just here to be the therapist from minute one to minute 50.
Alexa: And do you think that you can reinstate those boundaries once they've been kind of
Stephen: flawed? For sure. I mean, you know, sometimes it can be a bit like, hey look, you know, I've gotta apologise 'cause I've been running over and I, you know what, I, I just, I need to hold, hold myself accountable to this time.
So, you know, where I've run over in the past, I'm, I'm not gonna do that anymore. Because, Actually, do you know what? I don't think it helps anybody.
There's an amazing case study of, of somebody in the psychoanalytic literature where it's a, a patient who wrote with their [01:01:00] analyst saying that she, for five years tried to make her analyst go over the 50 minutes and never did. And so her conclusion was, see, I proved it: nobody really cares about me. And of course the analyst said, well, if that's what you took from it, we haven't had meaningful psychotherapy because it's not that I don't care, it's that this is the time in which you and I do this thing.
And you see that's different, right? So, yeah, so, so there are lots of layers to, to relationality to the relational approach and we go, go through them in the book, but, but basically if you can't keep time, you're failing at the first hurdle.
Alexa: Damn. I need to pick myself back up and get back on the horse.[01:02:00]
Can you tell us what else we might find in the book?
Stephen: Yeah. So, um, what else might you find in the book? Okay, well, there's lots of anatomy. I love anatomy. I've studied anatomy. I've been in the dissection lab. I've written about anatomy. I've lectured on it. I, I love it. I now know there's more to the human being than the muscles.
However, anatomy influences what we know about red flags and that's important to keep people safe. Um, so there's lots of anatomy. There's lots of really cool moves. Basically we've written out the moves as though they're a story.
Alexa: Oh man, that sounds like something up my street.
Stephen: Yeah, it it is beautiful.
I'm really, I'm really chuffed with how all of that turned out. And then the philosophy of the work, I mean, you know, the, the dispositional time relational person centered bio-psychosocial, we go through how to do the [01:03:00] consultation.
Alexa: Oh, fab yeah.
Stephen: I mean, you know, how, how do you receive somebody's history?
You know, and we've written about, I mean, there's a beautiful section in the book, which is, um, is it you and I discovering something like an archeological dig or are we creating something? Are we finding the ceramic or are we sort of making the pot on the turntable? And you know, there, there's invitations of open philosophical questioning throughout this.
Hopefully attending to my now stance of swampy mud person.
Alexa: I love that. I think at the next Halloween party you need to go as Shrek or something and be like, this is, this is me going as the swampy swampy person.
Stephen: Yeah. I've finally made it.
Alexa: And does anybody who, um, hasn't done maybe your massage courses or isn't, , a massage, licensed massage therapist, can they [01:04:00] still follow the steps in the book and, and guide somebody else through it themselves rather than being hands-on?
Stephen: Yeah. So look, if you are going to touch somebody else, you need to be trained to do so and insured, I think. And if you are interested in what vocal massage is and has to offer, then this book is the book. I mean, it's the book that I wish I had had,. I think that's why we write books is 'cause we write the book that we wish we could have read.
The hand positions, the story, the, the, the practice within it, it's very accessible and we've made it so, so that, you know, anybody can pick the book up and, and really understand it. 'cause I'm not about that hierarchical medical jargon life.
Alexa: It just alienates people, doesn't it?
Stephen: Yeah. Why do I need another degree to be able to understand it?
You know, just, just tell me.
Alexa: And what sort of pocket [01:05:00] money do we need to save for a copy?
Stephen: Well, it is 74 pounds. 74 great British pounds. The process of pricing it is really tough because like I look at the voice clinic handbook, it's like 120 quid now. And do I think it's as good as the Voice Clinic handbook?
I think it probably occupies a similar position. Does it cost a lot of money now? Money to print and bind a beautiful book like this that's fully coloured? , yes. You know, and so, so 74 great British Pounds is what you'll, you'll pay for it.
Alexa: Just before I close up that, Stephen, are you happy with how it's gone?
Is there anything I haven't asked that you think I've ignored that was important to you to get over today?
Stephen: You know, I think you are an excellent host of, of this [01:06:00] podcast.
Alexa: Oh, thanks Stephen.
Stephen: And I feel. Very, um, I feel, I feel like I can really speak.
Alexa: Oh good.
Stephen: So that is your gift, I think.
Alexa: Well, I'm really glad 'cause I was listening to everything you were saying.
Remind us, Stephen, where can we follow your work and get in touch with you for any questions we may have or maybe even to inquire about the online vocal massage course. I know you have that sort of thing.
Stephen: Yeah, so you can follow me at Voice Care Centre on Instagram and then voice care center co uk, uh, online.
And, uh, I mean, if you type in Stephen King voice, I'll come up. So, you can find me.
Alexa: Brilliant. Oh, as always, Stephen, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming back on and I didn't insult you after all, did I?
Stephen: You didn't. Damn
Alexa: You grubby you bastard. There you go. [01:07:00] I won't keep that in.
Stephen: You must. you must