Alexa: [00:00:00] This week's episode is dedicated to the topic of hypermobility. To help us get an idea of what hypermobility is, the potential benefits and pitfalls of hypermobility and singing, and to understand some of the exercises we could implement with hypermobile singers, as well as the things we might want to consider when working with hypermobile singers, is Sarah Algoet.
Sarah is a voice coach. And she is also the writer of the viral blog, Hypermobile Singers, from pretty impressive to pretty painful. So, without further ado, let's get into it!
We have been practicing your name pronunciation just before we've come on, so I don't do a disservice. So Sarah Algoet it's very lovely to welcome you to the podcast. How did I do?
Sarah: You did pretty great, thank you.
Alexa: Okay, good. I'll keep practicing, I promise. I'll keep practicing hyper mobility. It's a bit of a topic. So can you [00:01:00] tell us how you are coming to the table on this topic today?
Sarah: Ooh, that's a huge question. So I was thinking for my whole life that I was just naturally flexible. And that's it. I never realized I was hypermobile until pretty recently actually. It was thanks to a webinar by Alien Partljič I'm hopefully not butchering his name, uh, for the, was it the World Voice Teacher Expo?
Yeah, I think so. He did a lecture on hypermobility, and that rang so many bells for me. Not just for myself, but also for many, many, many of my clients. Apparently I tend to attract hypermobile singers for some reason.
Alexa: That's really interesting. And I watched a webinar by a Hypermobile voice coach, Imogen Roux, which she did for the Ehlers-Danlos support UK group, and she described [00:02:00] hypermobility as a kaleidoscope ecosystem.
So firstly, what does hypermobility mean and what does it encompass? Okay, that's
Sarah: a lot, a lot of questions in one. , first I'd like to react to the webinar by Imogen Roux because I think she delivered a stellar webinar. She talks about a lot of the things that I actually have been using in my practice as a voice teacher for many years ,and the element of safety that she touches upon is something that I've been integrating in my teaching for many years, and it appears to be extra important for hypermobile singers. Also, the polyvagal theory by Stephen Porges, that she talks about , really useful for hypermobile people, but actually for everybody because what's good for hypermobile people most of the times is good for everybody.
There's a [00:03:00] really beautiful quote by, , Celest Pereira where she says that, , hypermobile people are like the canaries in the coal mine, so they sense what is bad for everybody earlier than the rest, like not eating well, not enough hydration, no self-care, not enough rest. So we, because yeah, I'm hypermobile too, we appear to feel that and be, be conscious of that before everybody else. So yeah, this safety and, uh, consequent necessity for creating stability in our body is, is something that I've been integrating I think I started with that word like 15 years ago. Sanne Graulund was, uh, the first voice teacher who introduced me to the concept of working with connective tissue in your,, voice teaching.
So her method is called connected singing, and it's [00:04:00] all about this feeling of safety that helps us create more stability in our body. So, . I didn't know I was already tailoring my approach to hyper mobile people. It's, it's only later that I, I figured out, oh, so okay, this is why this is working extra well with this person because they're hyper mobile.
So this is , extra efficient. So it's efficient for everybody, but extra efficient for hypermobile people. So you, you said something about, uh, the kaleidoscopic element of, , hypermobility. , indeed it is a very kaleidoscopic thing because, um, it presents differently in, in everybody. So in my blog post, , that's where you found me, in my blog post I mention a lot of possible symptoms. So if you read that blog post, it's very, very possible that you do not resonate with, with, with every. Symptoms. So that's [00:05:00] why I, , write a lot about, , you might experience this, this can present itself. Maybe, , you feel this. So it's very, very different in, uh, everybody.
And it's also possible that you are asymptomatic or that you're only experiencing the positive symptoms. , however, if that's the case, it can be that you become symptomatic, uh, later in life. And then you asked, , what it encompasses. Yeah, that was the third question. So, , when you work with a hypermobile person, well no. When you work with everybody, but extra importance when working with hypermobile people, your work with the connective tissue, I. It's going to be very, very important. , connective tissue, it's, it's, for example, fascia, , that provides support to your bones. Uh, your, your, your blood system, your, your musculoskeletal system. That was a different, different, uh, difficult word.
[00:06:00] And, , in people with hypermobility, that connective tissue is, weakened and too stretchy because there's a collagen deficiency. So this, this collagen production, which is different, is very essential to the element of, of, uh, hypermobility. , and the result of that is that your connective tissues don't have the ability to hold everything together.
So this is why we. Tend to, yeah, experience less stability in our body. And the result of that is that our threat bucket threshold is lowered. Do you know what I mean with the threat bucket? So everything that happens in our life, , stress, things that happen in work, when we have a fight, not eating well, that fills our threat bucket.
and when you're hypermobile, the , threshold of when the bucket is overflowing is much lower. So our brains perceive more easily that we're threatened even though there's not [00:07:00] not a big threat present, our brains perceive it. As that, that were not safe. The most common symptom and the most known symptom of hypermobility is that, , your joints move beyond, , the, the normal range of motion.
Um, it can be that it's only affecting a few joints, but, um, it, it can also be more, more widespread in, uh, in, in your body. , some people are just, yeah, a bit hypermobile without big issues. , but for others it can really come with, with pain, , fatigue, , big instability , and a bigger risk of, injuries too.
, I think it's really important that I stress that hypermobility and flexibility are not the same. I used to think that I was naturally flexible. I am not. I'm hypermobile. So when I'm doing, for example, yin yoga. When I do a stretch exercise, my joints are really [00:08:00] mobile, so I can create that figure of yin yoga, but I'm not creating it, with my muscles.
My joints are not totally dislocating, but my joints go much further than they're supposed to be. So I end up doing the figure. It looks really beautiful, but I'm not receiving the benefits because I'm not working with my muscles. So there's a big, big, big difference between flexibility and hypermobility.
It's really possible that you are hypermobile but extremely inflexible. Like I already said, you can have benign joint hypermobility, just some hypermobile joints, but you don't have big issues. And then you can also have HSD hypermobility spectrum disorder because it's a spectrum. It's not just, this is the case and it presents the same in everybody.
It's, a spectrum. , then you have joint issues with pain, but there's no genetic syndrome in [00:09:00] hypermobile, Ehlers-Danlos, that's a, , genetic connective tissue disorder. And, that has really widespread effects much more than just the, joint hypermobility. And then we also have the postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.
Also a difficult one, POTS in short. And that's a condition where your heart rate spikes, uh,, abnormally when you, when you stand up. So you are very easily dizzy, fatigued, sometimes you faint. and that has to do with your blood flow regulation. And to end this really bit explanation with, sorry, it's big, it can affect many, many, many processes in your body. So yes, also your voice.
Alexa: Can you tell just by looking at somebody if they are using their joints rather than their muscle?
Sarah: Well, I, , posted some pictures of a really beautiful dancer on my blog post, and you can see that she has these lovely hand and finger gestures, like really [00:10:00] elegant.
So that's one really positive, , element of hypermobility. It's, it's really beautiful. The, you can really make elegant arm and hand and finger gestures and it can really enrichen your, , expression. So you don't do this with your muscles. You don't do thi, oh, I need to do it like this. I'm sorry. You don't do this with your muscles.
It's because of your joints that you can, , have this big range of motion.
Alexa: and just for our, uh, audio listeners, Sarah was just there doing what's, what comes up on the Beighton score, doesn't it? We're gonna talk about that in a second, which is seeing if you can get your thumb towards your forearm.
Sarah: That's one of the tests. Indeed, indeed. So the Beighton score test, , it's a quick test to assess joint hypermobility. So if you're working with a hypermobile dancer or a hypermobile singer, you can do this quick test , and it checks flexibility in nine joints and every joint is like one [00:11:00] point. So, like already said, , the thumb touching the forearm, my pinky is not that hypermobile.
You should, if you're hypermobile, it should, , bend beyond 90 degrees. And for me, , your pinky is also not very hypermobile. Mine is like a bit, but not beyond. Then your elbow, you told me that your, , elbow can really bend a lot. Could you demonstrate that?
Alexa: My party trick is to twist my arm around.
Sarah: Oh, is um, can you show me your party trick?
Alexa: My little twig arm's coming out now.
Sarah: Oh yeah. I can already see it. Okay.
Well, I mean, it's, it's hyper. Oh, that's so hypermobile. Ooh, that's a very hypermobile elbow. Thank you for that beautiful example.
Alexa: And then, yeah, I mean, my, my hand is facing front, but my, , what people used to call the crelbow, it's not an anatomical term. It came on a nineties show called Blossom. And so I always remember this little bit as the crelbow, but that is not an anatomical termonology . So my hand is, is [00:12:00] here, and then I used to twist it round. I cannot do that inside party trick. I'll take my bow.
Sarah: Okay. That was a beautiful demonstration of a hypermobile elbow.
And then we also assess the knees. I can demonstrate that. So when I stand up straight, it is supposed to stop here. However, my knees want to go much and much and much further. So the knee is a very important joint that you can check and you can also check whether you can easily put your hands on the floor without the leg, your knee.
So that's also a check. So if you score five or higher, then you are considered hyper mobile.
Alexa: Okay, so that's, that's on both sides, isn't it? So you do both thumbs?
Sarah: Yes, yes, yes.
Alexa: So both little fingers.
Sarah: One elbow is one. One elbow is one. One thumb is one.
Alexa: I, think I would also maybe be in that camp of, 'cause both my elbows are like that and I have a [00:13:00] sway back knees,
Sarah: I score six.
Then every joint, oh, sorry, I forgot thumbs I score six because we have two thumbs, two elbows, two knees. Oh no, I score seven. Oh my God.
Alexa: Is this something that we can do as teachers in the studio room? Is there anything that we need in order to do that?
Sarah: We are voice teachers. We cannot diagnose. We can do this test and you can do it without anything. You just ask them to do what we just did . And then you can say, I suspect that you have hypermobility. It might be interesting to discuss this with your doctor, especially if they're presenting with other symptoms that could be linked to, for example, Ehlers-Danlos or pots. For example. I have a client who, , was very, very clearly, , hypermobile. , and then due to, to another conversation, , she told me [00:14:00] that she was taking something, , to lower her heart rate.
And that immediately made a light switch on in my head. Like, oh, hypermobility heart rate issues. And I noticed that sitting down makes her singing so much easier. So to me, that was really, really a red flag. Like I need to say to this person, it's, I, I feel obliged. Like, okay, you are showing some signs of POTS. It might be interesting to talk with your doctor because it could really significantly, , raise your quality of life. If this is the case and you have this diagnosis, then you can treat it. So I, do believe that it's useful when voice teachers educate themselves to recognize these, little red flags so we can help our, , clients, not just in their singing, but yeah.
You know what is so striking, it's [00:15:00] so beautiful that the voice is not only a mirror of our soul. It's so often also a mirror of our health. In many, many cases, in many health conditions we can notice symptoms in the voice before we can notice it anywhere else. , for example, , with, , Parkinson's, you can, , hear it already in the voice before you can recognize the symptoms anywhere else in the body.
, Dr. Delpe who has led, , a webinar for my library on the possible effects of medications on the voice shared one of her projects, she is developing, , a device that can help doctors diagnose, , health problems through the voice. And Parkinson's is, one, one of them. So yeah, I'm really excited about that project, which is developed with artificial intelligence.
Alexa: You mentioned at the beginning that there's some parts of this that might be genetic, like Ehlers-Danlos [00:16:00] syndrome. Who is typically more likely to experience things like hypermobility?
Sarah: More women than men are, hypermobile, , research says that, and I noticed that in my, in my practice too.
It is much more common in the artist population and there is possibly a link with Neurodivergence , and last thing , this is not supported by research at all, but I suspect there must be a link with, uh, HSP highly sensitive people, because I recognize this in every hypermobile person I know, including myself.
it's also , theorized that , traumatic experiences might set off hypermobility, and Imogen Roux also touches upon that in her webinar.
Alexa: You mentioned that there are some really positive potential benefits of hypermobility. [00:17:00] Can we talk about those?
Sarah: Yes. , Maybe you noticed , in my blog post that I really try to not make it a boo-hoo story and this is difficult and Oh, us., because it can be a strength. Yes. So when we talk about, , general. Strength's, not just in singers. Like I already said, these elegant fingers and hands and arms and legs. Obviously that gives us a beautiful talent for ballet, for yoga, for gymnastics. Also , martial arts, because yeah, we have a bigger range of motion, pianists. Guitarists , they, they need really flexible fingers, so can, might be, or string, string players might be a really beautiful, asset. , and then when we talk about singers, well, if you're hyper mobile , you might notice that you have a really extended vocal range, that the extreme lows [00:18:00] and extreme highs are just there, ready for you to use them in your artistic expression.
And , a lot of hypermobile singers have access to whistle register. . I'm not saying that they naturally can control it very easily. However, the access tends to be pretty easy , when you are a hypermobile. it might be very easy for you to sing, , softly with a breathy voice, , to create a very intimate atmosphere.
Think of Billie Eilish, who is Hypermobile. I'm very happy that she's very open about that. So yeah, it, it is her trademark. This soft, breathy, intimate voice that she has. It's beautiful. We love it, don't we? And I used to be one of those singers that thought like, oh, that's not difficult. That, that doesn't deserve applause.
That's not special. And I, I didn't wanna [00:19:00] use it because I, when I was young and foolish, I thought that it always has to feel difficult in order to deserve applause. And then I learned that, oh, some people find this difficult. This is a vocal quality that I can easily use. And for other people, they have to work really hard to find it.
So I really think we need to celebrate our talent. And this is, um. a beautiful one. obviously I already explained that it's about our joints and our larynx is, is a big collection of joints. So yes, we have that hypermobility, or we can have that hypermobility in our voice too. So it might be that you have a very, very flexible voice, , resulting in , riffs and runs being very easy to you.
Yeah, thanks to all these joints being very mobile. for some hypermobile singers, it can be really easy to change vocal quality or register or vocal mode, [00:20:00] whatever you wanna call it , however, sometimes the exact opposite presents itself, so . Again, it presents differently in every body. So it also presents differently in, , in every voice.
, I already talked about the, the link with neurodivergence, which gives us access to creativity, stronger pattern recognition. So that's also a really nice trait to have , resilience. I really think that we should celebrate the resilience that hypermobile people , well, maybe I can't say that they naturally have it, but they have had to train to have it because we get gaslighted and people don't understand us and we have to fight.
And yeah, we develop compensatory strengths and that makes us resilient. So. Yeah, it [00:21:00] requires careful management, but it also offers real advantages and we need the right support for that and we need the right training for that. So maybe now is a good time to again, , quote Celest Pereira.
Remember that I said that, hypermobile people are the canary in the coal mine. They feel, , things that are bad for everybody before , the rest feels it. She also says that hypermobile people can do fascinating things with their bodies and they thrive if they're giving the right foundation. So voice teachers can be really helpful in that right foundation.
So what could that be? Enough proprioceptive stimulation because proprioception is often a challenge for hyper mobile people , enough neuro mapping of where our body is in space that helps us , with the proprioception, the right tools to manage anxiety because our collagen is not holding everything [00:22:00] together as it should be.
Like I already said, our brain perceives a higher level of unsafety of threat. Obviously that results in a higher level of anxiety. So if we have the right tools to manage that that's really helpful. and Celest Pereira also says that we need to be taught that we are a superhero. And like I already said, resilient.
We are not fragile, we're not weak. Now is the time for another quote, the fibro guy. He's, a, um, personal trainer physiotherapist who works with people with fibromyalgia but also hypermobility, and he says , your body is not broken. It just requires understanding,
Alexa: As you've just explained there, really, , the voice is the entire body, and with things like collagen, connective tissue, and joints being affected with hypermobility, we can expect that there are some maybe not so helpful things happening [00:23:00] to a singer as a result of that, and one of our BAST focus on events, which focused on body and breath, we hosted Tracy Jeffrey, who's been involved in a lot of the research on this topic. She gave a lecture on hypermobility and she said that one in approximately 500 people have symptomatic hypermobility. And as you said, more so in women. In your experience and through the discussions you've been having with singers, what are some of the common complaints and challenges that you've heard from them?
Sarah: Like you said, collagen is a, is a, a really important element here. It makes up , up till 43% of the total protein, sorry, of the total tissue protein, apparently, that's also a difficult word. , so people with, with, uh, HSD Hypermobility Spectrum Disorder, they have weaker collagen production and as a result a lot of hypermobile singers face voice [00:24:00] problems a lot more than and in people without hypermobility. And those problems might surface 20 to 30 years sooner than in singers without HSD. So, , overuse can much more quickly lead to voice pathology when you are a hypermobile. We experience vocal fatigue, hoarseness, loss of stamina voice related pain hypofunction much more rapidly.
Let's look at the collagen elements. It's much more difficult for the vocal folds to approach. So you very often see a glottal chink in hypermobile singers. And yes, that's quite normal in, in female voices anyway, however, with hypermobile singers it presents even more obviously to say it like that.
So, that can lead to pushing and the fact that it's more difficult for the vocal folds, to approach. And I think I haven't [00:25:00] mentioned the under-regulated interception yet. some hyper, well, not some, a lot of mobile, , singers have issues with interception. So if you combine that with vocal faults not approaching as easily, yeah, that's not very helpful because you tend to push more easily like that.
And if you have trouble recognizing unwanted tension in your body. Also in the region of your voice yeah. Then hypermobile singers tend to push more easily , so good microphone technique and monitoring are essential to, to avoid that , that pushing , also because of that difficulty of making a vocal folds approach, it might be difficult for you to sing , loudly, powerfully, intensely.
However, some hypermobile singers can go loud if that's the [00:26:00] case, it's sometimes is so that yes, they can go loud, but it's more difficult to control. Like I also said , changing , registers, qualities, vocal modes, so they can go to , the louder intense sounds. But control might, might not always might pose a a problem. I already talked about stability. We can also experience that in our voice., we can experience sudden loss of function and sudden loss of progress. Like you've had a really great voice lesson and you made a lot of progress, and then suddenly bam, it's gone and you can't explain , why.
So it might be that your voice feels , unreliable and inconsistent. And yeah, the result of that obviously is that you have heightened performance anxiety. So again, management of that is, uh, really helpful for a hypermobile singer, well for everybody, but extra for a [00:27:00] hypermobile singer.
Musculoskeletal issues like TMJ. Jaw tension, tongue tension. Those tensions are compensatory because we perceive a, a lack of stability. It's, easy for us to use compensatory tension. So this is a important thing to address when you're working with a hypermobile singer, because yeah, these tensions in your tongue and jaw, they, they impact your whole voice.
Last but not least, breath management for hypermobile singers it, might feel like a lifelong challenge.
Alexa: And do you think that people need to get a diagnosis? Obviously it can be really helpful for some of the umbrella parts of hypermobility. But for you, are you, would you seek a, an official diagnosis?
Sarah: Well, when I said to my doctor, my, my gp, like, look, I'm hypermobile and, , I noticed that my hypermobility gets worse because of that. I think I entering [00:28:00] perimenopause, blah, blah, blah. It just, believe me, he was just like, okay, yeah, that makes sense, da da da, da. So I think if your benign hypermobile and if your hypermobility spectrum disorder is not very high on the spectrum, I would not say you need, you have to get this diagnosis.
However, if it's really causing you problems, obviously it's gonna help the doctors to take you seriously.
Alexa: Yeah, that was something that came up as well as a point in Image Roux's webinar and in a Journal of singing publication by Tracy Jeffrey Etal, it was called, I have had to stop singing because I can't take the pain experiences of voice ability and loss in singers with hypermobility spectrum disorder.
And it was acknowledged that isolation and the need for acknowledgement and support were two of the most common and most debilitating symptoms.
Sarah: Well, first of all, sorry for pulling that face when you named that study. [00:29:00] The reason why I pulled that face is because, , there are some tragic stories in there of people being gaslit, not just being abandoned by the medical system, but even gaslit.
. When we talk about anxiety, I, I have a really concrete example of that. , two years ago I was having really severe anxiety attacks and my heart was really racing a lot. , at a certain point I had to go to the emergency room and by coincidence, , a male friend of mine just a year before that had exactly the same symptoms a year before, and he received all the scans and tests possible on the world.
They just told me, oh, it'll be anxiety. Take some Xanax. And that was that. And [00:30:00] hypermobility presents more in women and we are not taken seriously often by the medical system. So we really, really need to fight a hard and advocate for ourselves. , a lot of doctors don't know about this, so , often it's us having to educate them and not every doctor wants to be educated by a patient.
So many, many hypermobile people receive wrong diagnosis, so bad treatment and, and so on, and so on and so on. So, yes, a lot of work is to be done. So that's why we need community. this is one of the reasons why I started organizing group lessons for hypermobile singers because we're not alone.
There's many of us, however, we have [00:31:00] been, made to feel alone by voice teachers, trainers, therapists, doctors not understanding our body, our voice. For example, a person with POTS who is at the conservatory has to do her exam singing, and everybody wants singers to stand up straight during an exam, don't they?
If you allow a person with POTS to sit down, it's such a big difference. Their heart is not going 140 because they're having performance anxiety. Their heart is going 140 because they have pots. So if you allow them to sit down, they can share their artistic creativity and their story and their singing with us in a much more comfortable way for them.
So, [00:32:00] and that's just a, a tiny adjustment. Just let them sit.
Alexa: How does that then reflect into the industry? So say, say we're working with a, an artist who is going into musical theater, for example, where you're gonna be directed to be in different positions. Maybe sitting down isn't part of that at that particular time.
How does the industry need to react to these situations as well? Or how can we help somebody with pots or hypermobility to still thrive in the, in the most positive way that they can, but in certain directed situations?
Sarah: I think it starts with communication. Just listen to the singers, be open for compromise.
Some things might not be possible. Other things might be possible. It might be a very, [00:33:00] very small change for the director, but huge different difference for the singer and yes, education. We need to spread the word. So thank you very much for this podcast because, , we need to talk about this.
Alexa: You recently paired with Bjorn Poels to do a webinar all about the brain, and I'm sure you can explain it better than I can.
So can you tell us about that and uh, tell us a bit about Bjorn? Yeah, so
Sarah: Bjorn is a Z health trainer and Celest Perera, the person I've been quoting already, , during this talk is also a Z health trainer. So I've gotten to know the principles through her. and Z Health is a method that works with the magic of neuroplasticity.
There's a lot more to it, but they focus on the training of the proprioception, the vestibular system, and the visual system. [00:34:00] So those systems need to be well-trained and collaborate. In order for us to feel safe, in order for our brain to perceive lowered threats. And hypermobile, people tend to have a challenged proprioception.
And a lot of hypermobile people have vestibular issues, issues with their balance, , and visual issues might present themselves too. So during this webinar, Bjorn has taken us through some drills, some exercises that help your brain feel safe, and if your brain feel safe, all the system in your body are going to be collaborating much more functionally and efficiently. So singing will feel more easy. So Z Health is developed to work with people with [00:35:00] injuries, for example. So you will notice a difference in your injury. However, our singing benefits from it too, in a very interesting way and, and one of the exercises that Bjorn, , shared with us was for example, a polyvagal drill.
If you want, I can take you through that drill so you can experience the effect yourself.
Alexa: Yes, please.
Sarah: You inhale as deep as possible in whatever way you do that. So it must be comfortable for you if you choose to do that through the nose, through the mouth, whatever feels comfortable for you. So you take a deep inhalation and you're going to hum on your exhalation.
When you are humming, you cover your ears. And you close your eyes in order to eliminate as much sensory input as possible. So you inhale, you hum. Doesn't have to be very, very, very, very, very long or as long as possible. Just a comfortable hum. [00:36:00] You do this five times in a row. However, I'm going to ask you to first do an assessment. That assessment can be using a certain phrase for example, a phrase where you notice, oh, my breath management is a bit challenged. Or, oh, my vibrato is a bit irregular. It can be whatever challenge you want. Or you can do an assessment in your body.
For example, you can see how far can I go to the left? How far can I go to the right? Or you can bend forward and see how far you can go. So first you do the assessment singing and slash or physical assessments. Then you do the drill five times this humming, ears covered, eyes closed, and then you reassess and then you should notice a difference.
So do you want to do this together with me? Sure, sure. Let's do it. So what do you choose as an assessment? Are you going to sing or are you going to [00:37:00] do a movement with your neck or your back? Okay. Or for example, your ribcage. We can assess how open does your ribcage want to go during inhalation?
That might be an interesting one. Yeah.
Alexa: Okay. So do I put my hands on my ribs and just
Sarah: Yeah, you can put your hands here and just assess for yourself how open your rib cage wants to go. And is there a difference between left or right or not? And when you feel like. You understand what is presenting itself, then you do the drill.
Alexa: I feel like my ribs on the right hand side move a little bit more than the ones on the left. Okay. Hand side, I'll just do the neck thing. I know I hold quite a bit of tension in [00:38:00] the,
Sarah: So you can focus on range of motion. You can focus on ease. How easy does your rib cage open? How easy does your head wants to go to?
Left or right?
Okay. And then hands over the ears.
Yes. And close your eyes. You inhale deeply and you hum five times. And every time you are done humming, you inhale deeply.
[00:39:00] Okay.
And then you reassess and everything that presents itself is [00:40:00] welcome, is giving you information.
Alexa: Yeah. I do feel it's like a little bit easier for me to turn my head to the left where there's usually a little bit of. Issue due to my pillows, I'm sure.
Hmm. I think my left side is still opening the way it was before, but maybe the right isn't quite as overextended or quite as much. Yeah. Who knows?
Sarah: So really interesting. It doesn't necessarily have to be the case that with every drill you have a positive outcome. So it can be that there's no difference.
It can be [00:41:00] that there's a positive difference and it can be that there's a negative difference. So now you did the drill while sitting down. It might be that the effect will be more positive when you stand up and you can stand up with a narrow stance. With a wide stance. You can stand up leaning against the wall.
You can do the drill while, , sitting on a couch or you can lean back a little bit more, or you can do a drill while laying down on the floor. So you need to experiment which body position has the effect that you want. And then if you have found the drills that give this instant information to your brain, like this is safe, you can do this three to five times per day for a few weeks.
And then your brain will recognize that as safe inputs. And it can be a beautiful preparation right before a concert or a rehearsal. , so it's actually a bit tricking your brain.
Alexa: I really like that. It, , it's quite similar to something that Rush Dorsett took us through when we were talking [00:42:00] about sound healing, and it was the, the deep hum. And she was talking about feeling the roots to the ground. And we used the low meditative hum as something to kind of bring calm. So how can voice training help hypermobile singers then?
Sarah: Okay. Voice training can help in a huge way. So when you're working with a hypermobile singer, make sure that they activate their whole body.
So, movement, movement, movement, movement, really important. I already said that for a lot of hypermobile singers, especially singers with pots sitting down on a chair can be really helpful to create more stability there too. You can integrate a lot of movement. They don't need to be sitting in a chair like this, that they can sit on the very tip of the chair and then they can move like this.
So sitting down doesn't necessarily mean static singing, no [00:43:00] integrate movement all over. as a hypermobile person, you need to be mindful of your extremes. In, for example, stretching. I already explained the yin yoga , we need to be mindful when we go to the very extremes also in our singing , so when you go to, to your limits of your volume, your range, the opening of your jaw, be mindful of it.
Take care. It's not because you can go there that you constantly should go there. If you can sing with high volume, don't do it 100% of the time. it might be a really good idea to adjust your repertoire the genre that you're singing. , the duration of your rehearsals, the duration of your performances your, your schedule when your, are planning your performances.
. I also talked about the pushing. we tend to push easily. So microphone technique and in ear [00:44:00] monitoring are really, really important for us. So as a voice teacher it's important that we train our singers how to work with a microphone, how to use it to our benefit, and also train with inner monitoring. it's a challenge. Yeah. When you're used to singing with wedges and then suddenly you have inner monitoring. So it's something that that we need to train. yeah, general vocal hygiene, extra focus on that. So VTS resonance training. hydration hydration, hydration. Not only systemic, but also topical. So a nebulizer. I do not think that a nebulizer is a luxury for a singer, especially a hypermobile singer. Voice teachers can help a lot in addressing breathing issues. , hypermobile singers tend to be more prone to paradoxical breathing.
So breathing here instead of also allowing the abdomen to release. Of [00:45:00] course, we don't perceive enough stability in our body, so we tend to our pelvic muscles and try to create fake stability there because fake as because as static activation of these muscles, that's not true stability. Stability is in movement.
So if you've been taught by certain yoga or Pilates or voice teachers or whatever teacher that you need to engage your core at all times ah no stability comes from movement. So we need to, train context dependence, activation of our muscles.
Alexa: So things like marching where it can bring some stability to the core, or
Sarah: I would not say marching, I would say, for example standing on one leg. Tying yourself with a theraband to the wall or the door and seeing like that. [00:46:00]
Alexa: Okay,
Sarah: So when I'm talking about context dependent activation, I'm not talking about, I'm now going to do a pushup or a sit up. I'm talking about when you decide to lean forward and pick up a bag that's on the floor, you will not consciously think, I have to do this with that muscle.
And the no, your brain will fire so rapidly much more quickly than, than, than you can consciously take control over that. So when you are singing with that TheraBand while standing on one leg you are training that reflexive stability or for example, standing on one leg with a weight in the other hand and then looking left and right.
That's a really interesting challenge. You're going to feel that your core is going to be working . A lot and very functionally and very efficiently
Alexa: Rather than gripping.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Gripping is not stability. [00:47:00]
Alexa: So would the, would the wobble board be useful in that sense?
Sarah: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Really, really useful.
By the way, the exercises I gave you are exercises I learned from Celest Pereira copyright.
Alexa: Yeah is so anything that allows us to be helpfully stable and helpfully engaged rather than like, we are gonna have a six pack tug of war fight at the belly.
Sarah: 100%. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Totally agree. Beautiful.
Alexa: It's because I say it a lot in, in class. Yeah. So I work with a lot of dancers.
Sarah: Very, a challenge to work with respect for people who have to sing and dance at the same time because it's a constant balance and you need to develop strength, make sure that your muscles are strong enough to make sure that your joints are not going to do the work.
For example, there's a certain [00:48:00] twist in pilates. I do not think I can do that without the equipment. Well, there's a twist where like my hand is very close to my right foot now, and you twist so that your shoulder goes totally in that direction. And like a week ago I was like. Only now that I realize like my shoulder, shoulder blade, when I do that, it's going completely here.
Alexa: Oh wow.
Sarah: I am not stretching in my back. I am just allowing my shoulder to nearly, nearly subplate or dislocate, and I could feel it was the first time in my life I could feel that happening, and then I consciously activated my back muscles. I was like. Oh, this is what I am supposed to be feeling for 10 years already.
So, so yeah, we need to develop the strength in our muscles to take over the job that our joints really happily want to do.
Alexa: I've [00:49:00] worked before with, when I'm taking lessons the TheraBand, , like you said with the stability there, but actually for more reliable vocal fold closure.
Sarah: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm, I'm a fan of that because you work with the principle of resistance, so that's a really good thing. I also love to work with with TheraBands.
Alexa: You mentioned, well before we came on, about a particular pattern or pairing that might come up, and I just want to ask you if that's okay cause we have Jessica Luffey coming on the podcast next week to talk about tongue ties. So is there a relation between them?
Sarah: Jessica Luffey has led that exact same webinar for my library. Oh. 'cause um, I sometimes say that I'm a bit no, not a bit a lot of obsessed by the tongue. And tongue tie is something I have been focusing on a lot the past years.
So I have a few webinars on the tongue in my library, and [00:50:00] Jessica Luffey, has delivered a beautiful webinar on how it can present in singers and how to diagnose it. and what was really striking is that when I do the assessments, it might very well be that I have a tongue tie. However, you cannot say that you have a tongue tie just by doing these assessments, because yes, you can say the, there's some restriction.
But then you have to go through myofunctional treatment for a few weeks. And if then after that treatment, those restrictions still present themselves, then you can say, okay, I have a tongue tie. And then you can go for laser treatment. So never go for laser treatment, tongue tie release without first having had the myofunctional treatment or myo Yeah. Treatment. Um, because not just because you need to know for sure that you have a tongue tie and it'll also help your recovery. [00:51:00] The assessment tells me I have a tongue tie, but the symptoms in my voice are not presenting. I don't have all these issues that normally are tied ha ha, to tongue tie and then I invited Emily Kircaldy who has led the tongue, lips and jaw him for my library with those myofunctional exercises. And then it appears, or she explained to me because your hypermobility, so there's some compensation going on. So one of the assessments that you, that, that you do is, uh, click clock.
Can you do, and can you see how much I am compensating here? Hmm. So I can do this click clock easily with a tongue tie. That would be a challenge. However, because of my hypermobility, apparently [00:52:00] I'm compensating. So it might be, I didn't do the myofunctional treatment yet, so it might be.
That I have a tongue tie, but that the vocal symptoms are not presenting themselves because of this talent of hypermobility. So it's a really, really interesting journey for me. So yes, that's on the to-do list for 2025 to see whether it's just a restriction, something that needs to be trained in my tongue or whether I do have this tongue tie.
Alexa: Oh, well, you'll have to let us know the re We don't have to let us know the results, but we would love it if you let us know.
Sarah: If it turns out to be the case and I have a tongue tie, I will most certainly report on that through my newsletter. Create a blog, maybe post a video of the laser treatment. I don't know.
Alexa: What would be your advice to teachers and what they should consider when working with hypermobile singers? [00:53:00]
Sarah: Oh, so obviously everything I already explained, a bit earlier about how to work with a hypermobile singer. But I would also like to share that curiosity and exploration with an open mind without judgment is extremely important.
This is how I work with every singer, but I notice that we need to be even more open. To things presenting themselves differently when we're working with hypermobile singers because yeah, every, every hyper mo hypermobile singer experiences different symptoms and it, it presents very, very differently.
So we need to explore and play and no judgment. Everything is welcome and everything that presents itself is giving us interesting information to work with. So that's an important one. And [00:54:00] also do not believe they're interception. I have a hat to teach a client of mine that what they were feeling in their voice was pain, kinesthetic feedback is really important.
I find it really important that singers use kinesthetic feedback in their process of singing. For example, when there's bad monitoring. But many other reasons. And I noticed that with many hypermobile people, their interoception is challenged. They will only feel something when it's presenting themselves in a really big way.
So when they go over their limits, they feel it, but only when they went over it, when they went lots and lots and lots too far, so they don't feel it in time. Same with hunger, thirst, having to go to the bathroom. That's interoception too. [00:55:00] So when a singer tells me, oh, this sound feels really comfortable, I tend to not easily believe them when I hear a sound that is telling me, Hmm, it might be that it's not that comfortable.
So they might be used to that sensation. And not realize that it's actually not comfortable,
Alexa: which is so hard, isn't it? Because we're, we are told to be student led, client led and to not disregard what they say to hear it. So how, what would be your tip on how you can challenge that, but without making them feel terrible about it?
Sarah: Again, the exploration, experimentation. So take them take them through sounds, challenge them, okay? And can you make this sound? And can you make this sound and coach them through all these possibilities and constantly ask them for feedback. So do not tell them [00:56:00] this is pain. What you're feeling now is not comfortable.
Allow them to experience it for themselves because that learning experience is much more powerful. Do not go for the quick fix, like this is the problem and this is the solution. I do not use those words in my teaching. Nothing is a problem. Everything is giving us interesting information and something might be less functional, something might result in a less desirable sound, but that's not good or bad, or a problem and a solution.
So experimentation and let them experience it for themselves. No quick fix. The, when they experience it for themselves, the results will be much longer lasting. I already said, , let them sit down, but I want to stress it again. Let them sit down. Especially if they have pots that can make their singing a lot easier.
Collaborate, collaborate with [00:57:00] maybe other teachers and, and therapists and trainers, and make sure that they understand hypermobility. Maybe send them my blog post
Alexa: and this podcast, hopefully, yes.
Sarah: Actually, I have to say that a lot of the things I shared in this podcast come from my article. So yes, if those people absorb information more easily in a podcast form, send them this podcast. Physical therapy is really helpful. So osteopathy, craniosacral therapy whoof. I could not live without craniosacral therapy anymore. It's really powerful on working with your nervous system somatic approaches. Alexander technique, Feldenkrais, Tai Chi, Qigong, Pilates, yoga, massages because they are proprioceptive stimulation for your brain.
It's a really good thing. strength training. I already touched upon that. Your whole body, with the focus on the muscles , and then the joints [00:58:00] that are vulnerable. Mm. No passive stretching, like I explained with this exercise. And not just letting that joint go, but active stretching, dynamic stretching, controlled and range training, yes, sometimes braces. I have to wear, wear braces. Now when I go to pilates. Psychological counseling can be really helpful to deal with the anxiety helping your brain feel safe with this proprioceptive stimulation training interception training. Your vestibular system. So many, many people could be part of the team that helps, , helps the singer. Maybe it's nice to end this one with another quote by, by the fibro guy. . "Many people with hypermobility find it frustrating when they are told to be careful, stretch more, move less. However, those general suggestions completely missed the mark. They ignore the delicate equilibrium your [00:59:00] body is attempting to preserve where flexibility, strength, and stability must all coexist".
Alexa: There isn't a huge amount of research on hypermobility for singers. You've quoted a few people throughout our chat have you come across any resources that you particularly recommend on it.
Sarah: Oh yes, a lot. And I posted them all on my blog post.
Alexa: Oh, great. We can maybe put a link to that
Sarah: too much to Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to share the link. Oh, you already have the link.
Alexa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Been been sifting through that and sharing away and what questions do you still have about hypermobility that you would like to explore or have answered in ongoing research?
Sarah: So the connection with HSV highly sensitive people, and I truly believe that it's a strength.
I really wonder, is this why there's so many hypermobile people in the artist population, because we have this sensitivity, this creativity, this Yeah. [01:00:00] I really wonder, is there a connection? And then, like I just said, is there a connection between hypermobility and tongue tie? And if so, what is it and what can that teach us? And. Yeah, the, the more questions are being replied, the more questions pop up.
Alexa: Absolutely. Yeah. Always the way, isn't it? Sarah, can you tell us about your library.
Sarah: Oh, yes, I'd be happy to. So for many years I have been delivering webinars myself, but I have also been, inviting, exciting guest speakers. I already shared a few of those names and I record everything and I post everything in my library.
People can subscribe. I have a monthly membership, six monthly and yearly membership so people can watch the webinars at their own pace whenever they're ready. And when you are a member, you also get to participate in the [01:01:00] monthly Ask Me Anything, webinars for free. And I also record those. So I have absolutely no idea what will happen when I show up.
I just show up and then people ask their questions. And some amazing conversations have happened because of that, because the members of my library are very, very diverse from all over the world, from vocational singers to elite professionals, to voice teachers, speakers, singers. So yeah, it's, those conversations are really great.
Yeah.
Alexa: Amazing. And so, Sarah, where can we find out more about you? Where is that library?
Sarah: Sing sing dot be because I'm Belgian be slash online courses slash library info, I think. But I'll share that link with you too.
Alexa: Yeah, it'll be in the show notes. Absolutely. Oh, this has been a really great and interesting conversation.
Thank you so much for coming to join me and to, you know, you got to see my party trick.
[01:02:00] Yay. What more do you want?
Sarah: It was impressive. I have to admit I cannot do that.
Alexa: Thank you. Yeah, it's, it's, it's kept me going. I mean, not that I go to many parties, but you know, you can just pull it out the bag
Sarah: oh, maybe I can share my party trick. Then I have something with the nasal passages. EI call that my nose yodel. I just open and close my nasal passages.
Alexa: Amazing. I mean, between us, you know, we've got something, Britain's Got Talent or something.
Sarah: Maybe I can do this so easily because of the hypermobility.
I dunno.
Alexa: That's another question. It's another question.
Sarah: Another scientific research topic.
Alexa: Can nasal yodelling be because of hypermobility? Yeah.
Sarah: One never knows.
Alexa: Thank you so, so much.
Sarah: Thank you so much for the invitation. It was my honour.