Alexa: What are the differences between teaching for stage, screen, and the music industry? What vocal and industry challenges do singers tend to face currently in these subfields? And what's the thread that brings that all together?
Well, our guest this week, Jai Ramage, is very much in the know. Jai is a vocal coach for West End performers and a consultant for theatrical agencies. She's a vocal coach for the likes of ITV's The Voice. And she also trains singers in the music industry, working with them as a vocal coach, but also in artist management, helping them with things like branding.
So what's it really like teaching across these three areas? Let's ask Jai.
Jai Ramage, your work spans so much of the musical world, from West End theatre to primetime TV and working with artists in the music industry. So throughout this 20 years that [00:01:00] you've experienced so far in this field, what would you say is your favourite? most rewarding musical medium to work in?
Jai: Oh, that's tricky.
That feels like I'm going to betray somebody by saying that. I think the ones that I enjoy working in the most are the ones where there's a team. And that's not necessarily one particular Part of the industry because I, but when you feel part of the team, whether it's a vocal coach team or part of the music department or part of the artists, you know, entourage, whatever, that's when I think I feel the happiest, because it can be quite an insular job in. Working with, one, one to one with that person. When the whole thing is a project that you're a little part of. That's, that's what I like most.
Alexa: I don't think you can upset anyone there with [00:02:00] that. You dodged it. Dodged it with a bullet. Can you take us back to where your career began? Because it was on theatre stages, wasn't it?
Jai: Yeah, I think I got into Musicals with my gran and grandad. They would come and stay with us, and my gran and my auntie Betty loved old Fred Astaire musicals and Gene Kelly musicals. So I think that's where I really got my initial love for musicals. I then became a massive Madonna fan. And loved 80s music. So then I got quite into 80s pop and the whole dance thing with pop. So because I just got into the musicals, I started dancing. Then we had artists, actually probably early 90s, but Janet Jackson, Madonna, where they did these dance extravaganzas.
And that to [00:03:00] me was just like, brilliant. I loved that. So I think. It was a dance angle that I got into first, which got me into theater. And that whole dance thing then opened up the pop world, I suppose. I don't dance anymore, but.
Alexa: What sort of musicals were you involved with?
Jai: So I've done a few musicals. Uh, I've done Cat's Fame and We Will Rock You. Basically, the slightly, I've fallen into sort of more contemporary musicals. Although, I love the oldies. And I love the classics. But I didn't sort of fall into that camp.
Alexa: I think it was like a rainy Saturday afternoon and I was at my nan and granddad's watching Calamity Jane. And I think that was when I, not first turned my head to musicals, but it was one where I felt It's actually, I could sit and watch this all day and it had that nice attachment, that family [00:04:00] attachment because I was sat with my, my nan and granddad and it was cozy and we were close and it was,
Jai: Yeah, it's a sort of social family thing. It was definitely like that with my grandparents. And my granddad was a really good singer, although never trained and never did it as a job, but he was a really good singer and he was It's quite a character. So whenever we'd go to the pub and they'd be like, karaoke, although we didn't call it that then.
Um, he would get up and he'd sing and then he'd end up taking the bucket for collection round to everybody. And, so he was very good at being a natural front man and was skinny and nimble like Fred Astaire in physique. So, you know, I grew up thinking that my granddad might have actually been Fred Astaire.
Alexa: How has your time in theatre and being a performer in that realm influenced your approach as a vocal coach across things like stage, screen and the music industry too?
Jai: Yeah, I'm very I'm very aware of [00:05:00] physical connection. Singers, contemporary singers are really never still, pop singers are running around, they're dancing, they're, you know, playing instruments, musicals, they're playing a character, they're embodying the physicality of that character, when we're never really still and yet we have this sort of students will come into the room and be very still like singing lesson and I'm like, be free, because you're never going to be that still when you're working, you're going to be, moving in some capacity.
So I feel having that sort of understanding of that part of the medium has been quite helpful for getting them to understand the demands on the body while they're trying to sing, I think.
Alexa: And how do you get them to do that in this scenario? Is it a case of them just walking around or are you giving them specific activities?
Jai: Yeah, I mean, I've had people do complete dance routines from Cats in the studio like, you know, on a, on a postage [00:06:00] stamp, small version. , you know, just getting the breath going just not locking up really, just not having that kind of, I think theatre performers are such people pleasers, that they, you know, I'm in a singing lesson, I'm going to give 120%. they stand up straight in posture and actually just to let all of that go and just be more earthy and physically grounded I think is really helpful.
Alexa: With the theatre clients that you currently work with, are you noticing a particular vocal challenge pattern?
Jai: I think they're under a lot of pressure. In my day, we were um, I suppose less towards the end of my performing career, but we were sort of belters or sopranos. We were you either sang loud or you sang high, and the characters, you stayed in those roles, but there's so much pressure on them to be able to do everything.[00:07:00]
And, even young ones that pick such challenging material and then get frustrated at why they can't sing it, but not really understanding that there needs to be a process of how are we going to be able to do that challenging song, how are we going to set the foundations in and work towards it.
I think there's, I mean, I think it's probably part of society today and that they just. frustrate themselves because they want to be able to do it instantly. And it, they're, you know, technically challenging songs that need, vocal technicians to, to deliver them and still find them difficult. So I think the demands and the pressure that singers put on themselves to be able to just do it without putting in, lots of groundwork.
I think that's something I see a lot. And obviously, with fashions of high, loud riffs and, all of that just adds to that frustration for them, I think. [00:08:00]
Alexa: How do you get them on board with that idea of a process? Is, as you say, when they just want it right now or keeping their motivation going when maybe at the end of the first, second, third, maybe ninth lesson it's still not quite automated?
Jai: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's really tricky but I think that giving them, singing so much psychological and making them feel that they're not, Insufficient by not being able to do it that actually nobody can just run a marathon because they fancy it, you know that there has to be groundwork put in, and that's part of the enjoyable journey to then being able to do it.
Because that's, I suppose it's delayed gratification isn't it but, I think, making them feel good for the journey, rather than punishing themselves because they can't do it. And I think [00:09:00] something that comes out time and time again, particularly with the ones that are really good at the volume and the money notes is, to get them to bring the volume back at the beginning.
Otherwise, where are they going to go? I'm always saying to people, never underestimate the power of your quiet tones. , and I'm always saying, on a volume dial between one and ten, ten being your loudest and one being your quietest, tell me what number you're singing at. And they'll go, oh, a three?
And I'll go, really? Sing me a three. And then they'll sing it, oh yeah, I was at a seven. Yeah you're on the first chorus and you're on a seven. How long have we got to get to ten? Yeah. And I think as well, I think that's self analysis, and I also understand that, because I don't think I was very good at self analysis when I was singing.
And they've got tools to be able to analyse themselves. [00:10:00] really easily , with, you know, we had dictaphones and, you have to rewind and listen, we didn't have access to that, , in a lesson with a student and I'm saying, I think you're too loud at that point in the song.
Okay. Half the volume. I still think you could come back. I think you could half again, keep halfing. I mean, , there's not that many halves in a whole. Keep halving, keep coming up and then. I said, okay, I'm going to record you and recorded her. And the first thing when she heard it back was I'm too loud.
Yeah, you are. And you've got nowhere to go. She couldn't analyse that as she was singing because of how she wanted it to feel and how it felt good to her to project that volume. So I think having a really good sort of self awareness of monitoring those. volume levels so that , in a song that's five minutes long with five choruses and two key changes, how are we going to get to the end if you start at seven?
Alexa: [00:11:00] Yeah, without trading off a lung, the pancreas,
Jai: and somebody else's ear as well, it's got to be pleasant to listen to. And although it feels nice to be loud, you've got to choose those moments of putting that impact in and , making it the most impactful it can be, which is often, difficult. doing that loud sound once in the song.
Alexa: How much of this is actually the responsibility of how we've perceived sound in terms of how we are listening to music and how we then actually put a different pair of ears on to say actually they're using maybe a resonant strategy or actually that sound is not chest voice and one a thick fold being dragged up. It's actually a little bit of this.
Jai: Yeah, I think it's I think it's detail those details and also with recording processes, you know that Vocal that [00:12:00] may be high up in the mix so they hear it as loud may not have been sung loud and I think it's about learning learning to listen to other people, learning to analyse, and I was definitely guilty as a youngster of just, that sounds great. I'm going to do that, just how it feels. And I'm not going to think about it, I'm going to do what emotionally comes out, and it's going to be epic. You know, whereas if I'd have actually really analyzed that singer and worked out how they carved that journey and how they shaped those sounds and how they were making some sections sound effortful that weren't effortful, how they were using all of those tools, then I would have been able to filter that into myself.
But it wasn't until I learned how to teach that I. I never appreciated those details. I never knew those details at all as a singer, which is ridiculous, really. [00:13:00]
Alexa: We've asked a few people who have come on the podcast before, how much of the science do you feel this singer needs to know? What would be your answer to that?
Because I relate to what you've just said. I feel like I'm a much smarter singer now, and can pick up more from teachers who have maybe pointed things out scientifically, or the more I've understood about how the voice works.
Jai: Yeah, I think I approach it differently with each student depending on how open to it they are.
And with the telework, I generally don't approach it scientifically at all because there's not time. So lots of little backdoor ways around getting things without them even knowing that you're getting them to do things. So having the knowledge yourself, but manipulating at speed. the students so that they deliver what you're trying to get them to do.
Whereas I've got other [00:14:00] pupils that love the science and, actually lots of the dance students love it because they know it from how they make their bodies work and center of gravity and turns and all of those sorts of things. So then they just feel that's quite a natural. Oh, if I put that muscle in that position, I'm going to make that sound and, you know, in a basic level.
So I find that they quite enjoy it, but most of the time I feel that it's something that I'm going around the back door and they don't really, they don't really know. But I definitely point out details that they can hear whether they know how to scientifically achieve them. They definitely notice them and I normally if it's a pop person, I will normally print off the lyrics of what they're singing, get them to sing it and I will just scribble all over the lyrics in their nuances and colors and textures.
I've got my own sort of shorthand, and then I'll go to [00:15:00] them. Do you know that you do this. This is, I love what you did in this line. Do you know that you do this? Do you know how you brightened that sound there? Do you know how you made that ? I'll point them all out to them. And most of the time they don't know they're doing it.
But when they do know they're doing it, we can then accentuate those bits. and highlight them and, unless they're dangerous and then we can eliminate them. But, if they're creative, then um, you know, that's makes them unique. And that's part of, being on the voice really is like what makes you different?
What makes you impressive? And it's those little nuances that I'd pull out, but the singer doesn't. Always know they're doing
Alexa: Just before we move on to talk about your TV work, you are a consult for several top theatrical agencies and producers. What are they really looking for in the audition room from a musical theatre performer?
Jai: I think [00:16:00] there's lots of things in a musical theatre performer, versatility, being able to take direction, fitting into the character, all of those things. But I think there's something with all auditions, I think there's something about people being comfortable in their own skin.
And when they walk in the room, just being Not completely freaked out by the situation just being themselves being on top of it just coming in to do their job. I think that's that's quite rare in something that you'd, I feel should be normal, I was working for a big show and I was, this was way, way back before I was coaching and I was doing stage management for them.
And I was actually cleaning up the coffee on the floor that somebody had spilt and they would, the directors were speaking over my head and really big director. And he said, I just need them to come in [00:17:00] and show us what they can do without the nerves. Because I can't gauge what they're going to do.
If they're a mess, and I thought while I'm cleaning up on the floor tissue paper, I thought that's so interesting because the nerves are so natural, but they're so unhelpful . And so when somebody comes in and they're comfortable in their own skin and the director says, can you try it in, this accent or that accent or can you, make this, they direct them, the people that are comfortable in their own skin and not flustered by that and they just do it. And that I think is really important for any audition, but particularly musical theatre where it's going to be directed. It's not going to be you have free reign of how you artistically put this across.
It's going to be a collaborative process. So I think that's really important.
Alexa: How do you help your clients with that?
Jai: Lots of perspective, lots of, [00:18:00] um, Nobody's going to be hurt from you singing a song. It's what you do really well. Not putting obstacles in your own way, self talk, negative self talk, reframing, all of those things.
And in any part of the work that I do, that's across the board. Because it's, it can be so destructive.
Alexa: So how did you then land your first TV gig?
Jai: By accident.
Alexa: That's not what we want to hear. We want to know the process, Jai. How do we get into TV?
Jai: Yeah no, but it was by accident. So I was I was doing a choir gig. So I was at Air Lyndhurst doing a choir singing session for Tony Christie for a charity single. And , because I knew the conductor, he'd got me in as one of the choir members. So I was singing there. It was a sight singing job, [00:19:00] which I'm not great at, but the other people next to me were very great at it, so I could coast that.
And because they were so great, we were in the pub after recording the track after 20 minutes. So I was in the pub, this is not the story that you want to hear. I was in the pub with the conductor and everybody else involved. And he said to me, you have your coaching qualifications, don't you? And I said, yes, I was Estill master teacher already at that point.
And he said, I need you to send me a coaching CV tonight. I can't tell you anything about it, but I I need you to send so that I can put you forward for a job and I didn't know what the job was. I didn't have a coaching CV at that point, so I went home and made one, sent it to him and then got called in for The Voice and that's what it was.
He was [00:20:00] the conductor band leader for the first few years on The Voice. So really right place at right time with the right qualifications at the right time that a new opportunity comes up.
Alexa: Yeah. And is that still the case that they would want to see that you have a coaching CV that you've got certain qualifications?
Jai: Not necessarily. I think experience and insights into different parts of We're quite spread in our sort of musical skills and types and genres. So I, not necessarily, but at the time, I think it was a little bit of a tick box of, that was going to be helpful because you know what you're doing.
I didn't really have a huge coaching CV at that point either. So the qualifications needed to be there it was at the time, I suppose, when [00:21:00] when Estill was quite, wasn't new, but there was probably only about 11 of us in the country at that time that were qualified. So it was, quite powerful in its, in itself at the time. and then it rolls from there, because you get asked to do other things.
Alexa: Predominantly, what is your role as a TV coach on things like The Voice compared to what you've done on Starstruck?
Jai: Yeah, they're totally opposite, which is why I was quite interested to do Starstruck because The Voice is all about making that singer um, making their blind audition as impactful. As you can and helping them achieve that, which you often do by their individuality and their uniqueness whereas Starstruck was making people sound exactly like somebody else. So that needed really [00:22:00] deep analysis from our part on the artists that they were doing impressions of. And I was, and it was so interesting because there's some artists that I didn't think, when you think of Amy Winehouse or Tina Turner or, you think of those artists, you think there's loads of characteristics.
There's loads of things that could make somebody, they're not easier to do an impression of, but they're very distinctive. And then there was other artists like Bieber and George Michael, even that I was like, Oh, is there going to be as much like defined, characterized sounds, but when you start to analyze them, they're everywhere, like they're, George Michael, I've never listened to in the same way again, so much detail in his style. And, I never particularly would have thought that before diving in and unpacking. And then you go through [00:23:00] it with these people that are going to emulate him. And, you know, we're going through letter by letter, sound by sound, consonant by consonant, trying to, resonant changes, all sorts of things.
It's, so it's fascinating. Whereas the voice is all about you do this unique thing. Let's pull that out. So it's they're completely different ways of working, but you know, both interesting from a vocal aspect, but yeah, completely different.
Alexa: What did you find out that most surprised you about George Michael?
Jai: I don't know, just, I think because I feel that he's like a Really sort of clean, rich, round, toned singer. Very controlled, very um, technically approached, I suppose. That I hadn't picked up all the sort of more guttural sounds that he has. The creaky [00:24:00] onset, the, you know, there's so much in there that's not as clean as I thought it was.
Yeah, just little details and the way that people, you know. I can't think of a word off the top of my head, but you know, the way that their W's shape or their, some sibilance in their S's or, things like that you maybe just don't notice till you dissect and then you're like, oh, there's a lot going on there.
Alexa: Yeah. I wonder whether he would have picked that out in himself. Who knows?
Jai: Maybe not. Maybe not. Unless he came to me for a lesson and then I'd be like, do you know that you do this?
Alexa: I know that you said that you went into TV by accident and we spoke also to, I think, one of your colleagues, Jono McNeil, who you work with on The Voice,
how can I love Jono. Yeah lovely guy. And he gave us some really good insights to the voice, and also the masked singer, [00:25:00] although he wouldn't tell us the secrets. Damn him.
Jai: He signed an NDA.
Alexa: Couldn't get it, couldn't get it. But how can people like us, the listeners, get into a TV project?
Jai: Yeah, it's quite tricky. I think it's, I think it's being known, so you know people that can pull you in um, it's a very particular type of working, so I think people are maybe sometimes resistant to bringing new people in because there's no time to train people to do it or to even brief them, it's just fast.
When people know that somebody's got experience in it, it's easy to just throw them in and they'll just deal with it. So I think there is I suppose it probably is a little bit closed shop like that. [00:26:00] But saying that there are ways of, people needing covering. I need, I can't do that whole contract. Can we job share? To fit it in, so being on people's radar, I think is really good so that you get people phoning and saying, I need cover on this day, or I, and then you meet people and then you get in and, make your mark. But I do appreciate that it's tricky in, in a kind of closed shop type way.
Alexa: We spoke to Katie Holmes Smith recently, she's just come off of Adele's Las Vegas residency tour and we asked Her about getting involved in, in something like that and she mentioned that it blew her mind when some friends of hers literally DM'd the musical director on Instagram. Is that something that would work in this venue, do you think?
Jai: I don't know.
Yeah, I think it's so tricky. I suppose maybe [00:27:00] cultivating those situations like the one that I had by accident, you know, maybe being in situations where those people are that could be influential in opening doors, maybe even, conferences and things where people will be and just making yourself known not, not sure. Not sure how bold, but then I'm not that bold to DM somebody on Instagram. So maybe that's makes me go, Oh God, that's scary.
Alexa: Yeah.
Jai: Yeah.
Alexa: Like a turtle just going back into your shell.
Jai: Yeah. Yes. So it wasn't, probably wasn't very helpful in that answer.
Alexa: No, it's okay. There's, all the producers on The Voice and everything will start getting loads of DMs now.
Jai: Yes. Do it.
Alexa: You mentioned that a common challenge for theatre clients was nerves and moving [00:28:00] around and letting go. Is there something that is more unique to the TV clients that you work with when it comes to vocal challenges and the things that you find you have to guide them with technically?
Jai: I think they're under a lot of pressure of time build. So on the voice it looks like we kind of approach them for two minutes and open the door and shove them on. But we've worked with them quite a lot by that point. They've had rehearsals and they've had lots of meetings about songs and they've had camera rehearsals.
And they're quite well prepped. So much so that sometimes they're a bit bored with their song. They're so rehearsed and I think the pressure of having to deliver the best version that you can in the one minute that you get put on stage when you don't know what time that's going to be, I think that's really [00:29:00] difficult.
the problem with theatre I think is that the nerves come in for auditions less so than the every night performance because that becomes. normal. But with the voice, they, they're prepped for months and months for that one minute and a half. And to deliver your best on that one minute and a half is really difficult.
So it's just getting them not to peak too soon, getting them not to be not to put that pressure on and to just enjoy it and to be, but all of these, that's easier said than done. I just think that. They might not know what time they're going on as well because they don't know running orders because things like that can change and, you never know if the coaches are going to decide to have a toilet break and then the time is slipped back and so they don't know when they're going on.
So it's not like in theatre where they know act one starts at half seven you know what you're doing at what time, ,
The tech TV stuff doesn't work like that. It's on a looser timescale and I think for a [00:30:00] singer. I would find that really difficult because I'd need to be a little bit more organizeorganiseduild up. So we try to organise their build up . That also then involves when they last ate, what energy they've got, whether they're tired, whether they've just spoken to their boyfriend on the phone, like all of those factors can come in to whether they do a good performance after all of those months of prepping for it. And I think that's a real challenge, beyond anything vocal, because if they're not there in their mind, or their energy levels, then whatever you've practiced vocally might happen, but it might not have that extra energy in it.
Alexa: And you're preparing these people for months, but how long do you actually have [00:31:00] with them across that time? Are they small, short slots?
Jai: Yeah they're, they're sort of. they're sort of little chunks. We're, we always warm them up and we we'll have a sort of half an hour before a camera rehearsal and then we'll debrief afterwards so that we can go through notes and things like that.
So they, if you did it in singing lesson terms, I suppose they'd have several chunks of singing lessons, but spread over, different parts of the day. And they have band rehearsals so they, they're equipped with. Their arrangement with the band, they've been sent away with a track for that.
So they do know it really well , they are really prepped, but nothing can prep them for how they actually feel on the day and how they control their own approach to it. And sometimes they've never sung in front of people. So that's, that's such a difficult thing for us to. expect [00:32:00] them to do.
Alexa: . And before the blind auditions, you've got self tapes, haven't you? So who watches those self tapes?
Jai: Yeah, so we now have self tapes because of COVID. We didn't have self tapes. So COVID's changed the audition process, which is a shame because we used to tour around the country and have, ten people in a room and they'd all sing a cappella and it was great fun. And you could really find some really inexperienced people that were brilliant because it was just a, relaxing fun day out. We don't do that so much anymore and they are sent to to the casting team. So there's the casting team will watch the self tapes and make initial decisions.
And then we come in a bit later down the line now. So we used to be in right from the start. And now we're not so much, but it's, they know what they're, they know [00:33:00] standards and it's a well oiled machine.
So, you know, they're, they're more equipped to do it now than, you know, when they, when they wanted our advice. Now it's not so needed. But yeah, that's a tragedy of COVID, I'm afraid for us.
Alexa: And for singing teachers who might have singers or working with singers who really aspire to submit something, do you have any tips for how to go about picking their song or actually recording their self tape?
Jai: Yeah, so I think there's quite a few things with this.
I think there, there is always a song every season. So when we would be going around the country, there would always be a song every year that everybody would sing. Avoiding that song is important. So I think it gets very difficult to compare singers when they're [00:34:00] just singing the same song there was one year it was Shallow there was another year it was Rise Up, various songs. I think our most heard song ever has been At Last. Etta James. And, they're great songs, and I can see why people pick them, because they're great vehicles for the voice, but , it's really hard to be objective when it's, the 30th time you've heard that in the day. So I think being a little bit out of the box with the song choice is good.
I think individuality is, you know, you know, that is key to being noticed in a way. And singing a song out of gender or out of style, or having a, somebody play the guitar so it doesn't sound like the original, things like that could be helpful. Um, being comfortable in their own skin. Just being normal, just being them. I think they don't have to fit [00:35:00] into any box. I think they fit in. They always think, I'm going to fit myself into that box, I'm going to go into the such and such category and actually they don't have to do that because the show is cast on what people present to us.
Contestants make up the show, there is no show without the contestants, and whatever they bring is, they bring it, and it catches our eye and ear. So, People don't have to force that, they just need to be themselves. But knowing what their individuality is, what is your USP, you know, what, what makes you.
What is going to make you memorable at the end of the day when they're discussing who they've seen and I've had so many students go to me and they just want a story, they just want a story. It's all about your grandma or whatever. And it's [00:36:00] I agreed when I first started to work on it that you kind of need some sort of hook.
But then the more I've done in artist management, then I'm like, you need a hook for a record label. You need a hook for them writing an article in the line of best fit. Because they can't just go, this person's released music and it's brilliant, go and listen to it. Because nobody's going to go and listen to it if you say that.
But when you say, this person who grew up on a farm in the outer Hebrides or whatever, and, bring a story in, then all of a sudden there's a brand and a visual and then people are interested. So thinking about that before they apply , who am I? Who am I as a person?
How is that reflected in my singing? How is that reflected in my personality? What, what is my USP? And again, that's something as a theatre performer, I wouldn't have particularly had, because I would have been [00:37:00] like I just need to be like the girl who got the job last time, because I need to step into that.
So I think self analysis again of like, how am I going to be different from everybody else? How are they going to remember me at the end of the day? What song can I choose that reflects who I am? How can I sing it to reflect who I am? You know, all of those sorts of things.
Alexa: Yeah. It's also a strategy that we can use as singing teachers for. targeting our perfect student too, but in bunny ears over the perfect. We spoke to Susan Payton who wrote The Business of Stories, and it was all about how you can grasp people's attention, be a bit more human, and be relatable by telling Stories from, things that you're comfortable to tell, but to actually look more like a human being and somebody wants to
Jai: Yeah, that's totally it. Yeah, to connect and be relatable so that people sitting on their sofa at [00:38:00] home are going to go, Ah, I want to listen to this. I want to find out more. You know, whereas singers often go, it's not about the voice. It's not about the singing. It's about the story. And I have to bring them in and say well, why do we want to listen to you?
Tell me what is it about you? And then when they start talking and, you know, realize that that's still a part of them, and that's why they're singing, and that's, through every thread, then they're like, Oh, okay.
Alexa: And this is just another string to your bow, isn't it Jai? You're you're an artist manager now, you work with a roster of artists, so what is it like being an artist manager?
What do you do?
Jai: Yeah, so this is another thing that kind of happened by accident. , I think because I was Nurturing artists and, developing their songwriting. I'm not a songwriter, but again, from analysis and hearing stuff and analyzing things for [00:39:00] A& R for artists that I coach and, I think I've just got analytical about that.
And so I, if I'm working with a singer who wants to go into pop, then I'd be like how are we going to take this further? We need to write. Let's start your writing, and I'd nurture that and guide that and then I found that with a lot of them I was then handing them over. Getting them opportunities with artist managers, handing them over to labels, and then they're gone from me.
And, it's not that I need to be possessive and keep them, but sometimes you don't feel you haven't quite got them as far as you can get them and you want to carry on being that part of that process. And also for various reasons, you know, you, you've become part of each other's the ecosystem of their project and that's how I've fallen into it because there's so much admin that needs to be done when the artist just wants to be writing the songs and singing them.
[00:40:00] That um, admin side of it is overwhelming and really distracting for them and needs to be done because if they're going to make any money in the music industry, debatable anyway, but you know, if they're going to attempt to, then they need to have their songs registered with the royalties collection at societies and, they need to have. T's crossed and an I's dotted and I found that I was then learning how to do all of that stuff to make sure that the artists that I was coaching were hooked up and prepped and protected in those things and it was from learning all of that that I , took on that admin role with a lot of them and yeah, and then just using contacts and connections and hooking in, tried and tested photographers and videographers and, you start to build a little pool of [00:41:00] people that you trust and that becomes your part of your music project family. moment, I've just got one. I've got a a boy called Blair Gilmore who is just turned 19 and he's incredible really great live performer. He started. He started playing drums because he'd got Tourette's tics which is actually quite common in musicians.
And it was the only thing that would calm his tics. And then, he was so good at it, he then just picked up a guitar and then could just play it. And then his mum bought him a keyboard and he came to a group class that I was doing online one day and said, Oh, I've just, I don't know how this is going to be, but I've written a keyboard instrumental break in the middle of the song that I've written last week.
I'll try it. And then just like, like, arpeggiated kind of sonata in the middle, so just incredible, and then obviously sings. But again, I've worked with him for [00:42:00] several years, and he, at the beginning, he would be a typical teenager, disorganised, and, I'm like, yeah, but that's verse one.
We need to get to that, you know, and then you're just guiding all the time to, to get them to that point. So I like that kind of organizing the start of their process.
Alexa: Now you've said that, I can imagine your house is really tidy.
Jai: It's really tidy.
Is it?
Yeah. Very minimal and very tidy. Yes.
Alexa: To learn all of that stuff the royalties and the copyrights and things like that, do you have any helpful resources that us singing teachers might want to check out?
Jai: Yeah, I've done a few courses at the School of Music Business which is run by a great guy called Matt Errington. And when I first started doing this he was my consultant. So I would list all my questions. And then I'd go to [00:43:00] him for an hour and say, I'm firing all these questions at you. And he'd fire the answers back at me.
And so he was like my sort of, like a mentor, I suppose, in a way
um, consultant, and then he ran he still runs School of Music Business, and I've done music marketing course with them, how to run a record label course various things. since worked for Matt. So we know each other quite well now.
So he's a great resource. And since I suppose it was probably might have been COVID that pushed him online as well. So all the courses that he did that he holds I think he still holds some in person in Holland Park, but he also then moved everything online. So then it's more accessible for, global people to learn his UK. Uh, music, because it's different, you know, royalties of different collections, societies and, it's complex. I definitely haven't cracked it in [00:44:00] music business it's really complex and it's ever changing at the moment and sometimes find it quite disheartening because there is so much creativity. I think teenagers are so creative. I think they get really bad rap at the moment, but they are so creative. And because they've got access to any music in YouTube and Spotify. They are not, they're not as single minded tractors as people think they are. So for me, I think they're so creative and think outside the box.
And they can record music on their own laptops. They can be creative with music tech. They can put music out to the world. But. Getting it out to the world and getting it to pay money back to them in what they deserve for it [00:45:00] is really difficult. So I'm all for promoting them to do it because they want to do it and they feel it's part of them.
But you've got to manage expectations because the music industry itself is so difficult to master. So I feel like half the time I'm giving and taking back, it's I find it's, I don't know where it's going, the music industry with streaming and I don't know how we're going to fully get it back. I know there are lots of people campaigning to, for the artists rights and, I don't really see where it's going, but That's not a reason to crush creative dreams. So I keep building the creative dreams, but I don't fully know. where the house they'll live in is.
Alexa: We spoke to Trudie Kerr not so long ago, head of vocals at LCCM, and she mentioned that some of [00:46:00] the artists coming through into the school almost show up as bedroom singers.
It's where they've, maybe through COVID, not been able to find space to sing out or to explore with different dynamics in their voice. Are you noticing any of that as well?
Jai: Yeah, definitely. I think it promotes creativity in some ways because they get to know technology and effects and, all of that sort of stuff.
But they don't necessarily know the live craft. And in some ways, that's another tricky one because to do live gigs is also then expensive because, they're not going to get paid much to do them don't often get paid much at the start to play original music, which is a tragedy. You could get a gig at a wedding and get paid nicely for singing other people's songs, but they're not going to want to hear originals, which is such a shame.
So those gigs are hard to get. But pay money [00:47:00] and so there's not an incentive for them to get out and play live either because then if they're going to replicate what they've done technologically in their bedroom on the stage, then that's going to involve other musicians, which they then have to pay or some kind of tech equipment that's going to kick stems out and emulate what they've done.
So It's difficult because the incentive to get out and play live is not necessarily there because it's so costly. And then again, that's the same thing. Promote the creativity. Where you gonna put it.
Alexa: Yeah. It seems a really tricky one to navigate, but it, you're being driven by art. And art is so important for our humanity,
Jai: So important. And it's being cut in all the schools and, it's a tragedy that creative dreams are, are crushed out of school curriculum and it's not seen as being important. And yet that's. what Teenagers are [00:48:00] crying out for, they want to express themselves. They are creative.
They do think differently and they, it should be harnessed and for their wellbeing as well. And it's not, and then they get, then they come across somebody like me and I'm like pulling their creativity out and praising them for it, but then in the back of my mind, I've always got this thing of what are we going to do with it? Because it's just so difficult. Yeah. And then, then there is, then that always brings me back to the expectation of what, when I manage people on a temporary basis as well, I always have that conversation of what is your aim? Is your aim to make loads of money from putting your music out?
Or do you just want your music to be heard? What, absolutely tell me what your aim is so that we can try and achieve it. And also be really honest if I can't guarantee that because it's not like that you have a spreadsheet, with any other business, you'd put a spreadsheet and you'd have KPIs and you'd stick something in the top and it'd come out of the [00:49:00] bottom. And if everybody does their job, you're going to get that. It's just not that at all. So you could be plumping money in at the top of the spreadsheet and, doors are not opened. And then there's minus at the end and for all of that effort. And that's when, you know, you have to keep coming back to, but people are listening to your music, people can access it. People are listening to it. You've created it. That's a legacy that you are leaving to the world. How would you feel if you didn't do that? If you had that locked up inside you and you didn't get that out of you, you know, what the benefits of having made that music.
So it's weird to be in this sort of time, I think, where we're trying to promote it, but also trying to manage expectations.
Alexa: And how important is social media in that, as month turns to month, year turns to year, and we have a different relationship with it?
Jai: Yeah, I think I think a lot of people are very anti it at the [00:50:00] moment.
I think it's gone a little bit out of favour. I think Covid pushed everybody onto it out of necessity. And I think from a sort of record label perspective, they just need to know in some kind of risk. assessment that you have a following and that you have a fan base and that could be in any form.
So that could be in, I can sell out a 200 cap venue or I have 10, 000. active Instagram followers or anything like that. However, there's a few things that I think are better for artists, like Patreon, because , people pay to be in your page. It's a bit like Substack is at the moment for writers, I suppose, but, People pay to be a subscriber and they get extra content that you wouldn't put on your socials and that can become your self [00:51:00] fulfilling record label.
If you have enough devoted fans, the irony is that if you have a, a Patreon that really shows a strong paid following that will, really support you, then a label may get involved because they're like, they've proved, they've done all the hard work, they've proved they've got a following in Patreon.
However, if your Patreon's doing so you don't need the label because then you can keep all artistic control and do it yourself because you're self funding. So it's all times of change. so social media, I think is important in that it's a free tool to make yourself known and spread your expose yourself to more audience.
However, I think algorithms are making it quite difficult to get beyond your friends at the moment. So I think artists can feel very, um, frustrated that they're putting content out [00:52:00] and they're not seeing much newness come back from it. And I think there's also become a bit of a pressure to pay for ads, boosting, all of those things, which artists don't have budget for. So again, there's some good about it and there's some bad about it, but there is pressure to do it and most artists don't like it because I think they feel that it's taking away from what they want to be doing, which is writing and making music, but I'm always saying we've got to reframe it because it's giving you a stage, it's giving you a stage to put your music out to Attract more people to it, so if we can reframe your mind to enjoy it, and also to make it easy as possible, document what you're doing, so you don't have to do extra to satisfy your posts, , which I'm rubbish [00:53:00] at, because I am not, that age group, so I don't have my phone out all the time taking pictures of, that I'm working at and stuff.
And in fact, sometimes I can walk away from sometimes I'll be at the O2 with an artist and I'll leave and I'll go, I didn't take one photo today. I'm at the O2. What am I doing? That's perfect for social media. And I just don't do it.
Alexa: That's so nice to hear that. It's so refreshing to be Like you were in the moment, you were just being there and you didn't think, I need to, I need. Obviously the photo is nice for your own memory, but I think it's just so refreshing to hear it, whether it's helpful or not, like an artist. You were just there, and you enjoyed it, and you've got the stories rather than, missing half of the feeling because you were
Jai: Yeah, and it's, in those situations, I feel as a coach, it's not about me either, it's about them.
I never get to the point where I go, oh, let's just take a picture of this, and I never take pictures really of me with the artists, because again, I'm [00:54:00] coaching them it's their time it's not my time to go, should we have a photo and put it on my social? I can't cope.
Alexa: You're like, it's the turtle again. You've gone back into the shell.
Jai: Perhaps that's the lesson in how to get into things, but it's actually not be like me. Be yourself forward more. Jai,
Alexa: I mean, you do so much. You're involved in such a broad scope of work. So how do you remain focused on all the different needs? Do you feel like you have to put a different head on for each thing?
Or do you find that they all. Can bring stuff together.
Jai: I think they all bring stuff together and I think the thing that they all have is that they're all human. They're all people. They're all people that have nerves. They're all people that have anxieties. They're all people that. Self critique, they're all under pressure that they're all going to respond [00:55:00] to somebody being calm, empathetic, understanding, they all, they need care.
They all need care. And I feel That human thread is across them all, and I think it's how to, I think it's almost more important than the vocal stuff, I'm always thinking how, what does this person need from me right now, and how can I deliver that. And often that's really quick decisions, like as soon as somebody walks in a door for, A rehearsal, as soon as they walk in, you need to read what they need and how you're going to approach that session.
And I think that is the thread through, through everything I do, I think, is that, and I'm not trained for that. I have thought about doing counselling course, I have thought about. Adding another degree into the pot and doing that. [00:56:00] I have, and that's, I haven't ruled that out yet.
Because that, I think, is the thread between it all.
Alexa: Jai, you've been so generous with everything that you have shared with us today. Thank you so much for keeping us company. Where can our listeners find out more about you? And, be cheeky and DM you.
Jai: They can DM me on Instagram.
I'm a little bit rubbish at social media, as I've just said. So I look like I'm not on there because I probably haven't posted anything since about 2023. But yes Jai Ramage Voice. is my Instagram. I'm a little bit old fashioned with, if it's a work related question, you'll probably get a quicker response if you email me.
So info @ jairamagevoice. com which is my website. So if it's work related and it comes into my inbox, it gets a little star and then at some point it does get replied to. And then I'm on Facebook and all of those things, but I'm not great at it.
Alexa: Oh no, Jai, it's been amazing. Thank you so much for your [00:57:00] company and we can't wait to see what more strings you add to the bow, even if there is no room left on the bow.
Jai: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the chat. I've really enjoyed it. I hope I haven't told any secrets.
I always feel that when I've done a podcast, I'm like, did I spill any gossip? Did I tell any secrets? It gets me into trouble.