UNION SOLIDARITY: Norma Rae & Hoffa Script Analysis

So I am still gonna do the film reel thing 'cause I'm a nerd and I like it. And so, let me get the film reel going, and we'll get this thing moving. Welcome back to the Silver Screen Happy Hour. I'm Chris Wiegand with my brother Jerome.

Starring Jack Nicholson, which of course is based not loosely, but factually on Jimmy Hoffa. This movie came out in 1992, directed by Danny DeVito who also appears in the film as a, sort of his number two. It's an amalgamation role. It's not a real person. It's, it's a mixture of, most people think three or four close associates to Hoffa were sort of mixed into one character. Right. That his name is Bobby Charo, Charo.

But before we dig in to the script structures or non existent script structures which I got I had problems with this too. I got a lot to say about both and the funny thing is David Mamet wrote the screenplay for Hoffa and I love David Mamet. He's one of my favorite screenwriters and I don't know if he just needed to pay the rent, so he took the paycheck, or if he's like... Because I'm so good, and I know all the rules of screenwriting, what happens if I throw curveballs?

Now, actually, I have less problems with Hoffa than I do with Norma. I have way more problems with Norma Rae's script. Yeah. Which, oddly enough, Hoffa did not get nominated for screenplay, but Norma Rae did.

So I got this for my birthday, my, my neighbors in my town all know me very well, they all know I drink, you know, whiskeys bourbons and all kinds of stuff. So one of them got me a bottle of Kentucky bourbon. Kentucky Straight bourbon whiskey. But this shit is strong. You know how most stuff is 40 proof, or I'm sorry, 80 proof, but 40% alcohol, right? So this is a hundred proof. It's 50% alcohol and it's called Heaven Hill. Mm-hmm.

And I chose it for today because above the title of where it says Heaven Hill, it says Bottled in bond under US government supervision, So if there's anything that screams union and government, right? That stuck out to me. So I'm going with this, and because it's so strong, it signifies the strength of the teamsters. Okay. So we are, we are, we are. It is strong. Wait. Alright, here we go. Are you ready? Yep. Did you get that? I got it. Alright, now how about this? This is always the hard part.

It's, it's looking more and more like there's going to be a strike there's a lot of, a lot of demands the union membership has put forth, and it's been received With a wet blanket, basically. The, companies, are not happy. They've, some of them, I know Stellantis put forth their proposals and the UAW president, did a video where he threw them in the trash. So, that's kind of where we're at, with the UAW right now. It's bad.

And they even threatened, for the first time, they've, I don't believe they've ever done this before, the UAW president, threatened to strike all three at the deadline So, if no one has settled and then resolve them one at a time. So Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis striking all three at the same time. I don't think they can do that.

I think the federal government will get involved because the entire Michigan economy will come to a screeching halt because so much is connected to the auto industry here. I mean, it's not just the parts suppliers, but Everyone that supports them and like the restaurants and everything around an assembly plant It's it's pretty crazy. How like during During the Great Recession when a lot of the plants were idled the economy just was hurting out here So we'll see what happens.

I just wanted to give full disclosure that I'm a union member and Yeah,

That's just, it's funny how that just naturally comes out of your mouth when you say that. Screen Actors Guild and the Writers the Writers Guild of America. So, two unions that are on strike right now, and this article from the New York Times was written. Or published earlier this year. Those, the strikes hadn't started yet, but they were talking about specifically what's going on in Michigan where they did mention it was a contract here.

But they also mentioned that in the last election, I guess the Democrats took over the Michigan Senate and the House. And one of the things that they're doing is they're repealing this bill that was opposed by Republicans prior. Yeah. That made it harder for the unions.

So, regardless of where they stand politically, and I've held my nose, I gotta be honest. There's, I mean, it's no secret that UAW has just gone through, what, a decade of, of corruption and prison and... Like, it's, it's insane what has happened.

Because you don't have movies if you don't have writers and actors. Right. Not everyone can do what they do. You know, you hear about it all the time. You know, whenever you're at a party, you always hear somebody get a few drinks in them and say, Oh, I was thinking about writing a movie. Like, yeah, everybody says that. But very few people can do it and do it well. Right. Right.

so yeah, 1979 Norma Rae, which... I think was a big staple movie at the time because although unions have been around forever, or at least, you know, they were popularized, long before 1979, That was a big moment for, like I said, it was loosely based off a real story, so when you started to get textile factories, right, and factories that made shit, everything, furniture, chairs, couches, anything where you were sitting in a hot warehouse with loud ass noise blowing your eardrums out with all

the machines, how long were we as humans At You know, we're not built to withstand that for so long. You could probably speak better than I can about working in the auto industry and the auto plants, how taxing that can be on the human body. Oh, yeah. Your your eyes, your ears, everything. When was it going to finally be time for us to stand up and say you know what, you gotta pay us better if we're going to do this, we need more breaks, we need more vacation, you know, go

Now, she gets it back, it's temporary, but it's, it's, that's the very first First, that's kind of what starts the movie off, kicks the movie off, where she freaks out that she's talking to her mom and her mother can't even hear her. It's one of these settings where it's a small town and everybody in that town, that's the job they have. They work at this plant, right? They work at this mill. That's the only job in town, right? If you don't have that job, you ain't working, you know?

So and, and there's no, the workers aren't unionized at this point. There's no union. I should say they're not organized. And then, and this is just an indication of what people have to go through. We'll get to it a little bit later. But, so, normally we talk about, here's my problems with the script. Let's just do a, we always talk about it, if you haven't seen the movies, watch the trailer.

Yeah. Okay. The basic crux of this movie, what we always talk about is, if you could get it down to a log line, which is what they, they call it in the industry, a log line. It's like a one sentence explanation of the film. Right? What is this movie about? Right. And, generally that starts at the second turning point, or I'm sorry, the first turning point, which is your jump to Act 2. Right? So, Act 1 is all set up.

You're introducing characters, you're introducing, you know, what, what they do, what Blake Snyder used to call at work, at home, at play. What do they do at work? What do they do when they're home? And what do they do when they're relaxing? Right? So you set up all that and then something happens that pushes the, the story forward and the main character has to decide whether or not they want to go on this journey. And that jumps him into Act 2.

None of that shit happens in the first act of this film. Okay? There's setup, but that's all there is is setup. And the logline of this film, I actually looked it up. In fact, I'm gonna friggin read it to you. Off of the Internet Movie Database. The logline for Norma Rae is, a young single mother and textile worker agrees to help unionize her mill despite the problems and dangers involved. So, technically that should happen. At the beginning of the second act. Hmm, yeah.

When does Norma agree to help Reuben start the union? At the fucking midpoint scene, dude. It's halfway through the film. Literally halfway. Of an hour and fifty four minute film. Somewhere around the... 56 minute mark, she agrees to help him set up the union. What the fuck's been going on this whole time? Half the movie is over before she even decides. They spend so much time on set up and so much time on why the...

Bosses are bad, and the mill is bad, and, you know, she's such a loud mouth that the bosses will teach her a lesson. They'll make her in charge of, what they call it, spot checks? Yeah. Where she, you know, has to go around and check everybody's work, and of course everybody hates her for that, you know? Right, right.

That was the boss's way of sticking it to her, and all this shit, and, I mean, poor Ruben spends the whole first half of the film, not the first act, the first half of the film, doing all

It wasn't that they feared the union, they feared the boss's response to a union. Yeah. And what does Pat Hengel, who plays Norma Rae's father, Verne, He says to them, People like you is how we lose our jobs. Right? Because that's what they're afraid of. They would love to be part of a union where they get paid more, and get more rest, and get more vacation, but they're definitely afraid that they're just gonna get fired if they unionize. Right.

Right, so that's really the crux of the whole thing, is they're not really afraid of the unions, they're afraid of their boss's reaction to a union. Right, the retaliation. Right, so Reuben jumps in and we in scene three, and he spends the entire rest of the first half Just trying to convince Norma. Norma Rae. Just, Hey, this is all a lot of good. We can do a lot of good here. Need some help. What do you think? I'm gonna go put some posters up.

That fucking shit happens the whole first half of the film. Yeah. Finally at the midpoint she says, okay, I'll help you. And I'm like, now? This shit should have happened in the first 20 minutes if you want to tell this story right. Right. So that's my first problem is, is, the pacing is way off. Now we always talk about the theme is stated in the first five minutes. Well, since we don't even get to the turning point until halfway through, this one comes a little bit later.

It's around 13 minutes in. What did you pick up? Did you pick up one? No,

And that kind of sets up, because at that moment you realize, Yeah. Because she's sitting on the edge of the bed kind of all depressed that she's sleeping around, right? Right. She's, I don't want to use a vulgar term. Let's just say she's, She's very freely meets men and has relations. Can we say it that way?

I guess if you really wanted to talk time wise, the first turning point could be when they make her the spot checker. That's where things really start to change for her, because all of a sudden now she hates the job, right? Because now everybody hates her. Right? But, here's the funny thing. She wants out of it anyway, and they demote her back to the line, so it's almost like that whole stint was for nothing. Right. You know what I mean?

So even that didn't make much of a difference in the story. Right, right. The arc of the story. Again, the story doesn't really pick up until halfway through when she agrees to help him. Then all the shit hits the fan, right? Yeah. Then, then it's now she's on the front lines, and she's helping, she's talking people into it. They're putting up posters and handing out flyers, and then it really 100%. But in the first half of the film, there is one of my favorite lines of the movie.

It's not one of, it is by far my favorite moment of the film. My favorite line of the film. And, a young Bo Bridges plays Sunny, who's, who's her next man up, right? God, sounds bad to say, but she goes through men like, like I go through cans of beer. So, when Sunny comes along, he's just the next guy, but this guy's really nice. He's a really nice guy. He's got kids of his own. He really just is looking to settle down. And she gets with him because he seems like he's got some structure, right?

All the other guys she's ever gotten with have all been... Loose cannons or whatever. So, Sonny, so they're out having a beer. She, Sonny, and the, and, and Ruben, played by Ron Liebman. Those of you, younger crowd would know Ron Liebman played, Rachel's dad on Friends for a few episodes. Yeah. So, and did a great job. Younger crowd? How? Well, yeah. Younger to me, I guess. But anyway, well, if you, if you, if you watch Norma Rae in the theater... Yeah, exactly. You're an old fogey.

You don't, you weren't watching Friends, right? So, you're not watching Friends. But anyway, so, they're all together, the three of them, are having a beer. Which is interesting because there's a hint of a Ron Liebman... Sally Field's sort of love interest there, right? Like they, they play around with this, Are they gonna hook up? Right? Right, right. There's even a scene where they go skinny dipping in the river together.

Well, if Sonny knew that shit was happening, He wouldn't have been too happy, right? Exactly, yeah. So there's a lot, They do everything but kiss in this movie. Like, there's a lot of flirtation. Right. There's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of innuendo. It just seems like they're gonna hook up, but they don't. It's reminiscent, when I watch it today, of, Tom Cruise and Demi Moore in A Few Good Men. Right? They never hook up. Yeah, but they had chemistry, right?

But there's a lot there where you're like, well, these two are obviously gonna bone, right? But, but they don't. Or at least we don't see it on screen, right? Like, that's, that's A Few Good Men Part 2, right? We don't ever see that movie. But, but anyway, so that's, you get that hint with Ruben and Norma Rae, but it never happens, right? Right, right. So, but anyway, in this scene... They're out having a drink. She spots Reuben in the bar and says hey, come on over and join us.

So they're all sitting there drinking and stuff and he starts telling Sonny all about the union. Of course, Sonny is just standoffish as everybody else in that town because they're afraid to lose their jobs, right? He says after Reuben explains what he's there for in the union. Sonny says, I had to write this down because I love this line so bad, I even rewound it, rewound it. Can I say that anymore? It was on digital. I, I backed up.

There better be more than one of you because there's more than one of them. And Ruben says, there will be. So, what I love so much about that is, and Sonny says it with a smile on his face, almost like it's never gonna last. You guys have come, every few years you come and try to start a union, and there's a reason why you don't. There's only one of you. And there's a shitload of them. And they can always fire us, and you can't.

That's why unions never work in this town, and they never work He's saying all of that in one sentence. Right, right. And that's why I LOVED that line. Yeah, it was good writing that. And, you know, from then I was like, that's the best line in the movie. So, you know, as we talk about the second act in movies, after the midpoint scene is when everything goes to shit, cause they think something good's gonna happen. Again, false victory usually happens at the midpoint.

Norma Rae's false victory was, I'm gonna help Ruben get this union started, and everything's gonna be great. Well, not everything is great after that. Everything starts to go to shit.

They barely, basically got his body out of the way and kept it going.

Yeah. And there's just the clash there is so great, the whole movie. But something like that happens, the guy gets his hand caught in the thing on the line, right? Mm hmm. And they're like, oh my god, and all the American guys rush over to get his hand free, and it's gushing blood, and the Japanese guy gets on the horn and he's all, Back to work! Right. Back to work, right? Like, what the fuck, dude? This guy almost lost his hand. Yeah. But like you're saying, that shit's reality.

Yeah. For real. Oh. That's a next man up. Talk about football. Next man up, whoever gets hurt, the next guy comes up. It's like that in the auto industry apparently.

It's the big scene where she stands up on the table, writes Union on the cardboard, and holds it up, and one by one, everybody turns their machines off. It's very reminiscent of... Dead Poets Society's final scene, where they all one by one stand up on the desks. Exactly. That's, that's the vibe I got, and I was getting chills because it was shot so well. Yeah. Where there's people staring at her, including Seinfeld fans, Mrs. Ross!

The woman who plays Susan Ross's mother on Seinfeld is one of the mill workers, but anyway. Yeah. God, talk about, you laughed at the, at the, at Norma Rae's death scene. Every time they showed her face, all I could hear in my head was, Look, Henry, I spilled wine on me! From Seinfeld. So that's all I could think about when I saw her. But anyway, so, it's a great scene, one by one they turn off their machines.

They escort her out of the plant, and what's waiting for her outside the plant is a cop car. She is getting arrested. Now, what's interesting is that Hoffa and Norma Rae are two opposites when it, when they, when it looked at, arrests and the cops, right? Right. Hoffa was the kind of guy that was like, Fuck it, bring it, you know what I mean? You wanna take me down? You ain't takin me down, whatever. That's another bullshit, trumped up joke.

Norma Rae starts fightin like they're takin her to the execution, like... She looked at arrest like the biggest blemish you could have in your reputation. She even comes home from the jail that night, and wakes up all her kids. And tells them, yeah, mama's a jailbird. Right. Jailbird

If you would've, if you would've said in the beginning of the film to normal raise character, how would you like to be out of a job by the time this movie's over, right. That she would've said, no way. I'm not doing anything that's gonna risk my job. This is the only, this is the only job in town. It's the only way for me to make money for my kids. So her job, her goal, her tangible goal is to have the job, right? To be, to get a raise. That's why she takes that job that she hates.

Yeah. The, the spot checker. Right. Which I did a little inflation, adjust for inflation. Yeah. For fun. I can't remember the number he used. I think he says it'll pay you an extra buck fifty an hour. Something like that. And she jumps at it. Yeah. A buck fifty in 1979 is like seven bucks today. Yeah. It's like giving her a seven dollar raise. Right.

So imagine if you're talking to a worker who works at anywhere and they make, say, seventeen, eighteen bucks an hour, and you tell them they're going to make twenty five. They'd jump at that, right? Right. That's something they're going to, that, so it's a, it's very realistic why she jumped at that, at that job that she, you know, hated so much. So that's, you know, that leads to the third act where, and then again we talk about the tangible goal.

She just wants a job, but she wants to be able to put food on the table for her kids, find a nice guy like Sonny, and live happily ever after, but her spiritual goal, which she did not know she needed, was to be the basically the hero of the town, right? Mm hmm. She gets the union there. Now, Reuben, you know, he doesn't even stop for a second to take all the credit at the end when she's walking him to his car. He's praising her. You know what I mean?

He's basically telling her, I couldn't have done this without you. You know what I mean? She's the hero. She's the hero of the story. And, and she did not intend for that to happen. That was, you know, not what she thought was gonna happen. But that's, that's what you get with... Your spiritual goal. It's, it's what you didn't know you needed. Right, right. You know, and, and you achieve it. So what were your, what are your thoughts overall?

I mean, otherwise, like I said, I think the first act was, was not written very well. Nominated for screenplay, oddly enough, but not written very well. Yeah. And it had some problems. It really picks up in the second half.

Best Actress and I think Best Song, which is the song they played at both the opening and closing credits, I wanna say. Right. So, but, but podcast because they like the writing tips, you can look no further than pacing. Pacing... is everything with writing. I mean, you could try to write great dialogue.

I remember going, holy shit, I'm not, this, we're moving right along. Like, this seems like a quick movie. Mm. But at the same time, it's not rushed to where any of the story is lost. Right. It's, it's, I think it's the early, came out in July, I think, so it's the early front runner for, you know, your basics. Best picture, best director, best actor, best screenplay. It was fantastic. Oppenheimer is fantastic. And like I said, three hour film, you don't feel a minute of it.

Some films, you feel every minute of it, right? Like, like, I remember telling people... Like the English patient. Oh, God. That one actually felt double than it's... Seinfeld did a, did a, Yeah, the Seinfeld episode. JUST DIE ALREADY! JUST DIE ALREADY! WHO HAS SEX IN A TUB? IT DOESN'T WORK! But anyway But, another one that I was thinking of, which actually isn't a bad film, but it's definitely only watched once, it's not a repeater The Curious Case of Benjamin Buttons. Oh yeah.

The movie with Brad Pitt where he ages backwards. Right. Man, you feel every minute of that movie. That is, it felt like the longest movie I have ever seen. And when I came out of the theater, people would ask me, how was it? And I was like, you know, it was alright. But god damn, I'm not watching it again. There's no way. Like, we could never do that show for the podcast, because then I'd have to watch it again. Right? And it's just, it's the, it felt like the longest movie ever.

But, but anyway. Oh, I

So, we're gonna, we're gonna start toying around with that in the... And the cool thing about it is if it actually works and it doesn't turn into a total shit show, but because there's drunk people live on the, on the app, then then we were able to record it and upload that as a episode as well. So you, you might see it on, in the, in the podcast feed that we have a live, some live episodes coming up soon, but.

Because it's supposed to be about Elvis, but it's all from the point of view of the Colonel or whatever his name was. The guy that Tom Hanks played. Tom Hanks character, yeah. Hoffa starts off the same problem. Right? Whose fucking story is it? Because it's, it's set up to be Hoffa's story, but it's all through the eyes of Bobby Charo, who's played by Danny DeVito, right? So it seems like his story... Who also

But one of the critiques I came across, not from Siskel and Ebert, but from somebody, some other writer, Mm hmm. Was that Danny DeVito's movies, his signature director theme is that the movies always start with him. Yeah. They always gotta show his eyes. And sure enough, in Hoffa, there's a fucking close up of his eyes looking pensively or thoughtfully off the window. You know, out the window or whatever. We always gotta see Danny's eyes. I love Danny DeVito,

So so he knows what he's doing. He's not an amateur at all. But there are little sort of director tricks that people do that, somebody like Scorsese might say, eh, it screams of a novice. You know what I mean? Even though he's not, he's not, but you know Danny's got his own. But he likes the tricks. Yeah, Danny's eccentric, so you know, he likes to do his little things. But anyway, so that's the first problem I think with the script right off the bat is who the fuck story is this?

Because everything is through Bobby's eyes. Bobby, when I say Bobby, I mean Bobby Charo. When I get to Bobby Kennedy, I'll probably say RFK so that there's no confusion. Okay. But Bobby is Bobby Charo who plays his right hand man. Like I said, it's an amalgamation. It's a made up character of people that were, you know, truly in his life.

Interestingly, and we're going to get to the Irishman as well, because there's things about the movie The Irishman, which was directed by Scorsese, that make you suggest that possibly Bobby Charro, one of the people he's based on, is Frank Sheeran, who is the Irishman, who was known as the guy that killed Jimmy Hoffa. Or thought to. There's a lot of people that dispute that. But he also was supposedly the mobster that killed Crazy Joe. I think his name was Crazy Joe Gallo. He was a mob boss.

All this is in The Irishman, which is another four hour movie. But, but, there are some things that connect these two together. But anyway, so whose story is it? We're not really sure. Because all the plot points seem to be Jimmy's. But Bobby's almost never off screen. He's in every damn scene. Because even if it's a scene involving Jimmy Hoffa, and Jack Nicholson is larger than life, right? We know that already. And he commands the screen like he's larger than life.

But every scene he's in, there's Bobby in the background, right? It's almost like he's witnessing everything.

I thought that Austin Butler, who played Elvis, did a fantastic job, you know? So, some movies, it takes you out of it, but this wasn't one of them. Like, this, he really pulls off a pretty good Hoffa. In fact, I would like to, I would venture to say that Jack makes Hoffa tougher. If you watch some of the old YouTube videos of the old congressional hearings and shit, the real Jimmy doesn't come off as tough.

Yeah. Jack makes him tougher in this movie, It's almost like Danny DeVito told him like, Hey, you know, we got a lot of footage to go on where you can get sort of like his mannerisms down and maybe how he talks down. But I want you to make him tougher like he should be tougher. And Jimmy Hoffa was a tough badass to begin with. Yeah. But he knew

He's really letting him have it. So But so okay, so we're getting off off the rails here as we usually do. So let's get back to okay Whose story is it? We're gonna assume it's Jimmy's through Bobby's

And and I will say one thing about that film in the screenplay. There is a lot of back and forth there You know half the scenes She's feeling down again. Like, I am worthless. I am a piece of shit. I can't do anything right. And the other scenes, she's really hammering people. Right. We gotta do this. Let's go. Rah, rah, rah. Defending her mom. Right, right. So there's, there is back and forth in Norma Rae. I'll give it that.

Hoffa, interestingly, I, I did detect ten minutes in, although it's not said to the main character, unless you think the story is Bobby Jarrow, because, let's face it, the movie starts and ends pretty much with Bobby, right? Right. That's the other thing, and that's one of my other problems with it. Another thing that other film critics praised, I thought, was a bad decision by Mamet and DeVito and everybody else. There is no backstory on Hoffa. When we start, he's already a Teamsters boss.

He's not THE boss, he's not the president. But he's already a Teamsters guy. And, and what is it? Halfway through the movie we find out he's got a wife and kids? What the fuck? When did that happen, right? Like, there is no discussion of any of that. And the praising that came from a lot of critics was, Well, that's how Hoffa was. He cared so much about the union that his private life didn't matter. Well, if I'm a filmgoer... I want to know, both Walk the Line and Elvis showed them as kids.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because there's a lot that makes you who you are. I want to know why Hoffa got into the Teamsters. Yeah. I want to know how does that, they mentioned that he used to be a trucker. Well, big fucking deal. I want to know more. I want to know how That story happened. And none of that shit is in this movie. It starts with him meeting Bobby. So we basically see Bobby's story.

I don't care if it's funny. Five hours long. Yeah. Kenneth Branagh did his version of William Shakespeare's Hamlet that was four hours. I loved every minute

Yeah. So that, that's a problematic right off the bat. But, that leads to my theme stated. Usually it's to, to the main character, which gets them on this sort of journey, back and forth. This one, Jimmy says himself. He says it to Bobby. Ten minutes in after Bobby puts a knife to his throat, and then his then number two comes up and puts a gun right into Danny DeVito's nose. And of course he drops the knife, right? He's like, oh shit, well, your gun is better than my knife.

So he puts the knife down. Hoffa walks up to him and he pats him on the shoulder and he says, Life is a negotiation. It's all give and take. And what's interesting, why I pointed that out as the theme, is look at the whole rest of the movie, right? All the scenes where they're back at the roadhouse, waiting for this mob talk they're supposed to have, that's him giving in, right? It's him not being tough. Who the hell does Jimmy Hoffa wait around four hours for? Jimmy Hoffa don't wait for nobody.

But he waits for them, right? So it's him giving in. All the other scenes, present day scenes, it's taking. Right? So that's the back and forth with Hoffa's character is there was only certain times with D'Alessandro who, again, is not the real boss. I wanna say, they mention it, again, in the Irishman. I think his name was Anthony Previzenzo or something like that? That was the mobster that, that what they called Deli Dela, Deli?

That was the nickname for D'Alessandro, was the mobster that Armando Asante plays. So, here

Oh, God. So when they say, so when Hoffa says to Frank Sheeran, the Irishman, in the movie The Irishman, I heard you paint houses. That means I hear you kill people. I could use a guy like you. Wow. Right? So, so...

So, as I wrote my notes down, I wrote down act one, and the first word I wrote was, it's fuzzy. Like, I don't even know. Like, there's so much weird shit going on that there's no back, and I wrote this down, there's no back story for Jimmy at all. Not, not how he got to the, how he came to the Teamsters, how he got to be who he is, none of that shit. The character of Bobby Charo is fictional, so they can make up whatever they want.

And there, and, you know, again, the movie really starts with them meeting each other in the truck. Yeah. Right? So I think there's more of a clear so that's kind of the setup of who these guys are, right? The death of Bobby Flynn happens, and when they set that laundry place on fire. Yeah. And... There's a lot more there too, but there's, that kind of leads to the first turning point was, why does Bobby get to take his spot? Why does Bobby get to slide right in as the number two?

The, it, what, what they, Hint to, anyway, is that because he speaks Italian, right? So the very first turning point is where they're at that big ruckus, where they're all got the bats out and shit, and they're all doing this teamster riot. And those two mobsters start walking towards Jimmy, and he's like, Fuck, I'm either gonna die right now, or this shit's about to get their hands on me. So he grabs a pipe. Right?

He's like, I'm not going down without a fight and they really just want to talk to him because they're from the mob. They want in on this. So that's when he gets Bobby to translate for him because he doesn't understand a word they're saying. So that's how Bobby gets in. So that, to me, that I felt that was a strong sort of jump to act two. Now we know why Bobby is his new right hand man. Right. Billy Flynn dies. Bobby takes his spot because he speaks Italian and he can translate for the mob.

Sure. So then it starts all this setup. Now here's where I get a problem around the midpoint scene, right? So, the midpoint scene is supposed to be the thing that happens that changes the direction of the story. Right? Or the main character gets their tangible goal. Right. Okay? If you go by minutes... If you go by the actual timeline, the midpoint scene is the McClellan Senate hearings with RFK. Right. Nothing is gained there. Right. There is nothing gained there.

20 some minutes later is what I feel is the story's midpoint. Wow. Jimmy wins the election and becomes president of the Teamsters. He says early in the first act, My goal is some day I'm going to be president of the Teamsters. He's telling you flat out what his tangible goal is. Right. Right? And he achieved, and remember we said the characters always achieve their tangible goal, what it is they want. At the midpoint scene.

So he becomes elected president, 20, 20, 23 minutes past the midpoint scene. That's his midpoint scene. So the timing is off there. Here's why it takes 23 fucking minutes. They do a three scene sequence where, after the RFK hearings, he gets stopped in his car by Tom Harmon of the Detroit News, who tells him, we got shit on you, and we're gonna run it. And Hoffa says, I'd be careful about that. You know, blah blah blah blah, I'd be Now, mind you, he isn't president yet. Right.

This is before he wins the presidency. In fact, that's a sticking point. Is this gonna hurt your run for the president in the Teamsters? All this dirt we have on you that we're gonna run. Bobby next scene, Bobby Charo is at the morgue. Gettin his hands on a jar with a dude's dick and balls in it. And then the third scene of this sequence is delivering that box to the Tom Harmon at the Detroit News. Who sees this dick and balls in a jar and kills the story. Right?

And then the next scene after that is he's elected president.

It does a couple things story wise. It shows that the Senate hearings didn't hurt his reputation, but strengthen it. Yeah. Because he gives RFK, puts him in his place, right? Yeah. He trumped, he trumped him. Trumps him. So then, he becomes president. I, I meant that in a Euchre way, you meant it in a political way, yeah. You meant it in a Donald way.

Yeah, dragged it, yeah. And it almost fucks up with the pacing. And again, people are probably listening to this going, Well, who gives a shit? Look, as a writer, if you want to learn pacing, Things have to hit at certain points. Yep. And the midpoint scene, which is halfway through your movie, Your main character gets what they want. Yeah. Not what they want. After thinking about that... It'd be fun to re edit the movie and just re release it. Well, that's what I'm saying.

See how it would feel. Did David Mamet watch it for the first time going, I did not fucking write it that way, they re edited it. I had that scene after, or whatever. I don't know. I love you Mamet. If you ever hear this, I love you. Anyway, so, I've got, this is the same problem I had when it was Mark Hamill. I have to make sure Mark Hamill knows how much I love him, even though I was trashing him a little bit in some of those Star Wars podcasts we were doing. Yeah. I do, I do love you Hamill.

Anyway, alright, so. So that's my problems with the, with the midpoint there, right. This is 1957. He becomes president. He's president of the Teamsters. I want to say for 10 years before he finally gets convicted, RFK finally gets him, right? But here's actually, no, it's not even RFK because after Kennedy is assassinated. Yeah, he was assassinated, yeah. Which, which, but here's the thing. They, they don't show it.

And the Irishman, and they certainly don't show it in this movie, but anything you look up in the history of how this all went down, when JFK was assassinated, there are reports that Hoffa stood up on the chair in the cafe that he was eating in and cheered. Whoa. Because he knew that with JFK gone, RFK is not going to be Attorney General anymore. Whoever the next president is is going to change that. And he'll no longer come after us.

Plus, he also knew something else, that the mob was probably involved with JFK's killing to begin with.

Where they have the interjected the big face. And then there's like, intercut with like Jimmy and Bobby Charo and Petey. Pete, Pete Connelly, I think his name is? Little Petey? Played by John C. Reilly in an early movie for him. Yeah. Sitting there, and the guy's big face is like, in the foreground, and it says, We have one more witness for the prosecution. And then the camera sort of pans over, and Petey disappears. Mm, yeah, that was cool. It's a cool scene! It is.

Little, little director trick there, but you know what's going on there, right? Yeah, I thought, yeah, it worked. I thought it worked. It worked. It definitely works. Again, these aren't, these... These work. That's why Danny does them. But, so, you know, so, obviously then he gets convicted. He has to go to prison. I think he goes to prison in 1967. So, I want to say for 10 years, he was elected president in 57. So, from 57 to 67, he's running roughshod over everybody.

He's the president of Teamsters. Things start to go to shit, though, with, with all the stuff that's going on with the pension fund, and, and laundering money, wiring money, illegal wire transfers, all that shit. They finally get him. What they don't show is how he gets out. Right? They talk about how he gets out in 1971, and they talk about there was a deal. A deal that got him out. Which, story wise, we're going to talk about because that leads to the all is lost scene, right?

What isn't discussed is how he got out. And again, this is interesting as far as history. Nixon wanted the Teamsters to vote for him. Right? So he told the Teamsters, I'll get your guy out. He told Fitz, the guy that JT Walsh, I think, plays Fitz, Fitzsimmons, the guy that takes over as president when Jimmy's gone. And he tells them, I'll get you, I'll get your boy out. I'll pardon him. But you gotta get your Teamsters union.

And I'm talking nationwide to vote for me, because the union vote is what we missed out last time. Right, right. Right? So we need it this time. What year, what year did he get him out? He got him out in 71. Now, he was elected president in 1970. Interesting. So he tells them, vote for me, and when he got elected president, his his next move was wait, was it 60, was it 70? Or was it 72? Yeah, it was 72. Sorry. The election of 72. So, it was a promise that was made. I'm gonna get him out.

Wait, he was already president. Am I getting the years mixed up? I thought he got out in 71, but Nixon... Oh, Nixon was elected twice. Sorry. Blame the fuckin Heaven Hill with this fuckin proof. So, Nixon wins the 68 and 72 elections. Yes. Correct? Yes. Okay. Alright. So, he's already president. But he tells the Teamsters, I need your vote in 70, in 72.

Actually he was, he was, he thought George W. Was an idiot. So he was graceful to George W. He hated Reagan. He was, you know, he was an old school guy, old school union guy. He hated Reagan and all that, but he loved, he thought he liked Nixon. And I bet you this has something to do with it. Right. The unions kind of gathered around Nixon around that time when they, when he let Hoff out. Yeah. And that's when, that's when my buddy Terrace hired in to Chrysler and joined the union in 71.

In June of 68. So that paves Nixon's way. Now keep in mind, all that's connected too. Because they believe that the mob's role in JFK had the mob also had a role in killing RFK to pave Nixon's way to the White House. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, so, wait, it gets better. So, Nixon's now in office, and Jimmy is already, Jimmy's already in prison at this point because he went to prison in 67.

So maybe Nixon promised it in 68, or maybe he said, you know what, it looks bad if I do it right away, let's wait. I gotta wait for the second go around. But either way, he cons the Teamsters into saying, Okay, we're all gonna vote for you if you get our boy out. Jimmy can't be in there any longer, we gotta get him out. He says, okay. But, the mob was still making so much money on the pension fund. Yeah. By the way, Jimmy went to jail!

And there's still, the mob was still cyphering money out of the pension fund, using it to launder money, that they liked how things were going with Fitz, the president in place. So they told... The Teamsters then told Nixon we want him out, but we're still making money without him. So, we don't really want him back. We want him out, we don't want him back. So Nixon made that part of the deal. He had to resign from the Teamsters the second he's released. Yeah, he was pissed about that.

So that leads to, so none of that is in the movie except for when he's told that, right? Yeah, yeah. The all is lost scene. He gets released from prison, and he's getting ready for his big announcement, and he's, he's even tell, he's telling Fitz. In the, the back room, Hey, you did a good job, but now that I'm back, here's what I want to do on day one, here's what I want to do on day two, and he's like, yeah, about that. Right.

One more thing I forgot to tell you as part of your release condition. So that's the all is lost. Jimmy's out. He has to resign from the Teamsters. He's forced out. And he's pissed, right? Which then leads him to start threatening the mob. Yeah. You need to get rid of Fitz. You need to get me back. I'm the reason you're here. I'm the reason you're making all this money. And he threatens him. If you don't get me back in, I'm going to the press. And I'm going to tell him fucking everything.

Well...

Because now it's not, they're not friends anymore. Right? That moment, they're no longer buddies, they're no longer friends, D'Alessandro and Hoffa. They're now enemies. And it leads to a third act, rather quick third act, where you know, sort of the resolution of the film it all comes into fruition about what's gonna happen next. Now again, some real life things that make this film a little bit where people question it.

In the film, The guy that's been hanging out at the Roadhouse all day, Frank Whaley, by the way, who's in numerous movies you've seen, he's in Pulp Fiction.

I'm talking about in real life. Yeah, yeah. That's where Jimmy was last seen. Oh. He was at that roadhouse waiting to meet with the mob, because he said, you know, we gotta meet and talk this out. Again, to tie this into The Irishman a little bit, the movie The Irishman, they kind of tell it a little bit more of how it's happened. Most evidence says. Jimmy's car was left there, by the way. In the movie, it's not. They kill him. They shoot Bobby Charo.

They throw them both in the car, and then they drive his car into the back of a, a rig. Right? Right. An 18 wheeler. And they drive off, never to be seen from again. Right. In real life, his car was left at the roadhouse. It was left unlocked. Oh, wow. And there was no evidence of foul play. The car is just there. There's no bloodstains or spilled coffee. Nothing. Interesting. So what they believe, what investigators believe is, the mob did show up.

And they said, we gotta, we gotta go somewhere to meet. And he got in the car willingly. Yeah. Right? The reason why people think Bobby Charo, part of who makes up his character, is Frank Sheeran, the Irishman. The one who eventually kills him. Is because, in the book, I Heard You Paint Houses, Frank Sheeran says that's what happened. We got him into the car, we drove him to another house, and when we went in, it was just me and him. And he saw there was nobody there.

And right then he's like, we gotta go. And when he turned around, Frank shoots him in the back of the head. That's how he depicts how he killed Hoffa. And that's what's in the movie, The Irishman. Now there's a lot of real life mobsters that dispute that. They're like, that didn't fucking happen. That guy's telling all kinds of bullshit stories. Whatever. It may, the evidence shows that he, that his car was left behind at the roadhouse and there was no signs of foul play.

That's why it's such a mystery, right? Nobody knows what happened to him. The movie sort of makes it an interesting sort of how they think it happened. This kid was waiting around all day at the roadhouse. Bobby Charles talking to him all day. And then when he says I really want to thank you, he says, no, take this coffee over and you go thank that guy. What does he do? He takes out a gun. Right. So, so it's an interesting ending. Again, my only real problem with the writing.

And again, now here's where you talk about, this is another problem right here. I just remember before we recap he never achieves a spiritual goal or so we think. Right. Right? His tangible goal was to be the president of Teamsters. Jimmy was always in it for himself, and he was always in it for money. Right? He claims he was in it for the working man. But really, he wanted power. Because the second half, when the mob was telling him, We don't need you anymore, He doesn't go down lightly. Right.

You know what I mean? He doesn't just roll over and say, Oh, I guess you don't need me anymore. He's pissed! He wants his power back. Right? So... It's, it's evidence to me that his goals were to, to be in power. So, remember that the spiritual goal is something you didn't know you needed. Right. Well, as a union man yourself, you tell me, what is Jimmy Hoffa's legacy? Is it bringing like helping millions of labor workers over the United States for... 60, 70 years now?

Is Jimmy Hoffa one of the things we can say, one of the people we can say is responsible for that? Would you give Jimmy Hoffa that credit? That he was part of creating what we know of the Teamsters? Yeah, I would say that. Right, so what I'm saying is, did he know then that his spiritual goal would be That he would change the landscape of labor would be his legacy for 70 years plus right probably not He probably did not think that that was gonna be his spiritual goal.

So here's the problem We can assume all that But we don't see it in the movie and why? Because here's what they could have done what they do with almost every biopic ending, right? Give me An epilogue, right? Yeah. Gimme something at the end as that truck drives off into the sunset and it goes black. Yeah. Before you run the credits, give me something on screen. Yeah. That would gimme something that says,

That he created what we know of the Union today. Right? They had a great opportunity to give us a nice printed epilogue right on the screen. Yeah. And they didn't. So, that's my other problem with the writing is, we never get a chance to really see his spiritual goal. Right. It's all left shrouded in mystery.

We know that. So yeah. Yeah.

Because it really, to me again, I'm not... A master of screenplay. First of all, I got to grab a beer for this. I got to grab one of my talls, because I actually loved this part of the movie, but I thought how I could make it better. Okay. And again, writers, anyone that listens to this podcast, it's all about what can you do to improve something, right? What can you do to make something better?

In your own screenplays, if we ever talk about something and you're like, Yeah, maybe I could change that. This is an example. Oh, did you hear that crack? I didn't hold it close enough to the... Yeah, we heard it. It's okay, I'll have another one in a minute. So, alright, so the bathroom scene. Oh, so, Bobby is telling the Billy Flynn story for seemingly the 100th time, and the story gets better every time he tells it, right?

So he goes to the bathroom, he's half in the bag now, and a guy follows him in the bathroom, and they're shooting this shit, they're talking, and then he realizes the guy's from the government. Right? And he's trying to get him to turn heel and and, and be a witness for the prosecution, right? Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a great scene because they're standing side by side of the urinal, but they're looking at each other through the mirror. Yeah. Right?

He's looking at the mirror to see the other guy, and he's looking at Bobby through the mirror. Which is, you know, a director trick of this is sort of, we're not really communicating. We're talking in languages. You know what I mean? Because the guy is not saying flat out yet. Only when he turns to him and faces him does he say flat out. Like you, you could turn, you could be a, for the prosecution. You know what I mean? Before he says that, it's all double talk.

Yeah, and they're talking to each other through the mirrors. Yeah, but what's the best part is when it's over He says you want me to you know to rat on Jimmy Hoffa? Yeah you know you want me to turn on him and the guy leaves and there's a shot of DeVito next to a mirror right and The mirror goes on forever. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right It's his face reflected in the mirror reflected in the mirror reflected in the mirror and it goes on forever Yeah as he's laughing. Yeah, great shot.

But here's how it would have been better They should have saved that shot, and I'll tell you where they should have put it. At the end. So, you're telling me that Hoffa sat in that car for four to six, seven hours, God knows how long, waiting for the mob to show up for this meeting. They were drinking coffee all day. He had to use the bathroom. You're telling me he didn't take a leak once? You could have ended the film, not ended it, but part of the ending, he goes to take a leak. Yeah. Right?

And maybe he has a conversation with the kid that's gonna kill him. And as the kid leaves, Hoffa's there. But his mirror image goes on forever. That would signify his legacy. Lasts forever. Yeah, I like your version better, man. That would have been a better director move for DeVito. Instead, DeVito's gotta make him the guy that lasts forever. You're not even playing a real fucking guy! You're playing amalgamation, bitch! And you want your image in this mirror lasting forever? Fuck you!

That should have been Hoffa lasting forever! He's the one that lasts forever! Nobody knows who you are, you amalgamated bitch! But anyway, that's how I would have made it better. Bobby who? Bobby who? You ain't even a real fucking person! Anyway. That's great, man. So I love the shot, but I even wrote in my notes it should have been Hoffa. Yeah. That's what I wrote. No, that's brilliant. That shot would have been way better. I want you to re edit it.

And put it, again, don't put it halfway through the middle. Put it at the end, where he's at the roadhouse, taking a leak, because then it signifies his spiritual goal will have been achieved. Right. We would have seen it visually. Yeah. Man. Sometimes I amaze even myself.

He makes his brother Attorney General on day one of his presidency, and he goes right after Hoffa and the mob. So they felt betrayed. Right? Yeah. Like, we got you in office, motherfucker, and now all of a sudden, you turn around and now you're going after us. Right. So they didn't like that. They, he turned his back on them. He, they got him in office, they, he turned his back on him. He puts Bobby in charge of I'm sorry, RFK in Attorney General and goes after the mob.

And then we talk about how the film The Irishman, you know what I mean, kind of plays on that a little bit. So, there's a lot of disputing of, of what really happened, right? The end of this film is highly disputed. The end of The Irishman is highly disputed. There are people that said Jimmy was buried under a giant stadium in New York, you know? So, so there's, there's all kinds of things. You can look them up on the internet. There's no shortage. I doubt they'll ever find any remains.

Well, they never, I don't think they ever will. Because the most obvious...

But if you took the ashes of Jimmy Hoffa after you set him on fire. And you took all his ashes. And you, say, threw him in the Hudson River in New York, or something like that.

And one of the characters in that film is tied up with a mob. Patrick Swayze takes the money, right? Gets the money out. Gets Whoopi Goldberg to get the money out. For those of you that are fans of the movie Ghost, you know what I'm talking about. The next scene, Patrick Swayze is there as a ghost, right? He's watching his friend frantically try to look for it on the computers. And he goes, you're never gonna find it. They're gonna get rid of you, Carl. They'll never find you.

They're gonna bury Hoffa. And, and he says that line, and again, as a 15 year old, when you have no idea of the history, you don't get it. The greatness of that line. Until years later when you understand and you're like, Ah, that's what he meant. Yeah, of course. Fuck. You know, so, as a 48 year old man now, I want to go back and, I have actually gone back and re watched a lot of movies I grew up with. Yeah. Because I get more of the jokes now as an adult.

And that might explain a little bit about what the fuck happened. Right? And 13 days only to show how much the government really was against Kennedy. Yeah. And during the Cuban Missile Crisis they wanted him to invade Cuba and he wouldn't. Right. So, and that's key to why he was killed. So if you watch those movies all at once, like all, like one after another, JFK, Thirteen Days Hoffa, and The Irishman, it might explain a little bit the mystery that we don't know.

Yeah. it's interesting to note too that both of these scripts that we said we have problems with, the first acts have problems. Yeah. They usually clean up a lot of this in the second act. Both second halves of these films are better than the first halves. Right? And you can say, well, it's like that for every movie. No, not necessarily. If you have a really good written first half, it, it enhances the second half.

But if you have a second half that has to redeem the first half, you're gonna, like you said, you're gonna lose your audience in the first half hour. They're gonna walk out. Or they're gonna turn it off or turn the channel. Right, right. Right?

So, both these films suffered from poor first halves, great second halves great performances all around, although, like I said, Jack usually could fart into a jar and get nominated for Best Actor, did not get a nomination for this movie, which is important to note because you know, it's the kind of movie that gets nominated for Best Actor, right? You're playing a biopic.

I mean, when we did Walk the Elvis show, both Joaquin Phoenix and Austin Butler were nominated for Best Actor for their roles as playing biopic, you know musicians. This is an Oscar type of movie that got left out in the cold. It got two nominations, cinematography and makeup, and I don't think it won either one. I'd have to look that up, but I don't think it won either one. I

I have no idea what this message is, what they're trying to tell me. This is just a miserable old man. He's just an angry old fuck. And there's no point to this. And then the last thirty seconds will make you cry. It will fucking make you cry. I'm getting goosebumps right now thinking about it. You've gotta watch the last, you've gotta watch the whole movie to get it though. Don't go on YouTube and say fucking show me the ending of About Schmidt. That will ruin it. You gotta suffer first.

You gotta suffer through it because it makes the ending so much better. Plus you won't get it. You won't get it. You won't know what's going on. You have to watch the movie. Watch About Schmidt and the last 30 seconds is one of the biggest examples of a character reaching their spiritual goal. Okay. That you'll ever see.

I didn't pick any of them. I picked, I picked two guys in these movies that I was like, all right, I don't know. I knew it wouldn't be that hard, but it's fun still. So I picked a Rob Liebman Ruben who played Ruben in a normal Ray and Kevin Anderson who played R. F. K. Junior. Er, R. F. K., not Junior. Bobby. Bobby. Bobby Kennedy. Now we can call him Bobby. Bobby Kennedy. Now, here's the funny thing about those two. Kevin Anderson was actually the easy one.

Cause that motherfucker's actually been in a lot of shit. Yeah. You know what I mean? A lot of people might see his face like, Yeah, I've seen him before. He's been in a lot of stuff. Ron Liebman, for as big as he was, Yeah. And he seems larger than life in Rorimer Ray, He doesn't have a huge... Filmography, right, but he's done a lot, but he's been in movies with some big people

But when you said Ron Liebman, I was like, fuck, I really only know one other big film of his that I've seen was Night Falls on Manhattan, which is a 90s movie with Andy Garcia and Richard Dreyfuss. And it's a really interesting sort of corrupt cop. With Street gang subplots going on, and Ron Leman plays a district attorney and who's trying to prosecute this, this gang leader drug dealer who shoots in, who shoots a cop. Mm-hmm. the cop's son is the lawyer he puts in charge of the case.

And that's Andy Garcia. The cop, by the way that gets shot is Ian Holm. You know him. He was Ash and alien. So so anyway, it's, it's, it's a decent film. So you connected him to Andy Garcia. Andy Garcia, which was, because again, I don't know a lot of Ron Liebman movies, and I can't use friends.

Yeah. So, remember, again, the point of this game is not to stump me, it's to, can we find two people that can't be connected? Alright, next time I am gonna pull two actors who maybe had one line. Dude, the one you did for Everything, Everywhere, All at Once, that was tough. Alright? Yeah. You picked a kid. No, no, no, no, it wasn't that. Oh yeah, maybe it was that. Was it that one? Who did you pick where it was like the kid's only been in one movie?

Silence of the Lambs and Midsommar and it is a Fantastic show not only is it a great show because it's movies that we love Or are very disturbing films. But I, I want to say that's the show where I almost killed my brother. I almost killed him. I almost killed him. Because we get into, I, I, I don't know, we get into a laughing fit.

So there's a lot of nonsense on there, but man, you can find some good houses and uh, get to know some people that lead those houses and they have conversations and I really enjoy it, so I think it's made for us. I really think it's gonna be Something we can play with and it'll be a way for us to talk movies, have some beers and engage in our audience. So, we'll see how that goes. We'll see how that goes. I'm nervous, honestly, but it's gonna be fun, so.

We haven't done our December one yet, our Christmas show. We are going to do a Christmas episode. But this has been, I hope you enjoyed it. This was fun. This is our Labor Day show. All for the unions. And uh, what do you think? You have anything to add?