The Perfume Alchemist: What if Your Identity Was Hidden in a Scent with Sue Phillips

Hello everyone. I'm Diane Grissell, also known by some of you as Silver Disbedience. This is the Silver Disbedience Perception Dynamics podcast. And again, I am so excited we are producing these shows in collaboration with Manhattan Center. We're in TV 2 right now where a lot of really wonderful artists have worked, recorded, practiced, so it is so much fun to be in this. I feel the good mojo and the juju as we start every one of these episodes and today this is

going to be really fascinating. We I met Sue Phillips a while

ago, and she is one of the world's most established iconic fragrance experts. She created fragrances for Tiffany's, for Diane von Furstenberg, for Burberry, and we have her here today. And we're going to be talking about the tie in between fragrance and our identities. So, Sue, thank you so much for joining. Thank you so much for having me. It's so lovely to be here.

Great studio and you look terrific and thank you for having me. Thank you, and I smell good too, thanks to a scent you just gave me and I'm honored to be wearing. Very happy you like it.

So Sue, how we need to start somewhere at the beginning. How does somebody become so aligned with scent to make this your entire career and passion? Well, it really was all serendipitous. I didn't have anything in my sort of career mind focused to be in fragrance. In fact, I was a singer and an actress in South Africa. But my mother was an amazing artist and a homemaker, A pianist and musician and an incredible entertainer. And so I grew up with a lot of multi sensory experiences, which

I didn't even know at the time. It was just automatic. You know, you came home, you practice the piano, you went, you know, watch your mom cooking or baking. Then she had these beautiful parties. And then I would go into her studio and I see her painting and doing calligraphy. So art, music, food was always part of my, you know, focus. And what happened was when I came to America, because I had auditioned for a theatrical position at RADA, Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, because I grew

up as a singer and an actress. And sadly they didn't accept me because they were about, I don't know, 1500 applicants for maybe 10 positions. So I came to New York. My brother was living here by this stage I'd seen New York. I'd fallen in love with it and I decided to emigrate and come here. So I went to an immigration attorney and he said what do you do? I said I'm a singer and actress. He said forget that we have 20,000 out of work singers and we don't need another one.

And but he actually offered me a position. He hired me to be his office assistant and manager and he said he would process my green card. So at night I'd go singing and acting. During the day I'd work in his office and at the end of the year I got my green card and I had three job offers from a through a headhunter. 1 was in banking, definitely not for me.

One was in fashion, and I didn't know much about fashion at that time because we were actually ostracized from the rest of the world because of the South African politics. The third job offer was to work at Elizabeth Arden. And I said, aha, fragrance, cosmetics, it aligned with all the things that I loved. Art, music, food were just a wonderful sort of confluence of all the things that I loved. And that's how I started in the cosmetic industry.

I was the national training director for Elizabeth Arden. I had to learn about fragrance. They told me I had to go to Macy's. They positioned me there as an quote intern where I learned about how to talk to the customer, how to relate to the customer, what fragrances they would like. So it was really, you know, one-on-one and on the job training and I landed up eventually travelling around the the country doing fragrance seminars and training seminars for Elizabeth Arden's

fragrances. And then they promoted me to marketing and product development. Then Lancome hired me as marketing director for fragrance and men's skin care. And then finally Tiffany hired me as executive vice president and I created and launched the first Tiffany perfume. So it, it's remarkable.

It goes on after that, but that was that's sort of the beginning of it. You know what this I I've never been able to remember the book, but did you ever read the Harold Robbins book where he it's about the perfume, the. Jitterbug, I have it. What was what? Which one was it? It's called the Jitterbug. Yeah, and Oh my gosh, it was such insight into what goes in to perfume and how huge the industry you is.

You don't think about it and then all of a sudden you'll be reading about some celebrity, maybe it's Nikki Hilton or something like that and you'll or Paris Hilton more so. And you'll see the amount of money she makes broken down, but it's primarily from her perfume. Oh, absolutely.

See, licensing is such a huge thing. It's such a huge part of building a brand. Most designers and most celebrities will then license their name to big conglomerates and big companies to do fragrance because fragrance is a much lower price point than of a couture designer or a celebrity's personal appearance. So for maybe 150 or 200 or $300, you can buy into the DNA the brand of either a celebrity or a a fashion designer as opposed to

a $5000 couture dress. But you can say I'm wearing Paris or I'm wearing Chanel or I'm wearing whatever. So you get that wonderful sort of cross marketing opinion and and focus because you're wearing the the design or the celebrities brand fragrance as opposed to wearing, you know, Chanel outfit for thousands of dollars.

And you reminded me of a very funny story since you mentioned Chanel and how you can buy into a brand when our daughter was probably 12 or 13, whenever Abercrombie was at its super all time high and every, you know, preteen and teen wanted to wear Abercrombie clothes and be just like the models in those ads. I remember going into the stores and you wanted to gag because the perfume was shooting out of everything.

And not only did you want to gag while you were there, then you of course your child wanted to own a bottle of that perfume. And I remember going out and saying, OK, if you want to wear perfume, I bought her a bottle of Chanel #5 OK. And she's like, mom, I can't wear this. Everyone says I smell like their grandmother anyway. Well, that's yes, on both. On the both subjects, Abercrombie and Fitch was one of the forerunners of scent marketing or scent branding in stores.

So when in Las Vegas, you know, to try and overcome the smoke odours because in casinos everybody was smoking. And in fact, I worked with the company and I landed up working and doing fragrances for them. They wanted to ameliorate the smoke odors in these casinos. So they put in an air conditioning system and somebody had the bright idea, why do we put in a fresh scent? So they put in a lemon scent.

And what happened was through the air conditioning system, the HVAC system, it would diffuse the scent of the citrus or the lemon, whatever it was. And it stimulated people. It woke people up. It gave a very nice aroma in the casinos and that was the forerunner of scent marketing in all these casinos throughout Las Vegas and basically throughout

the world. And many companies also create these fragrance aroma, they diffuse it in these HVA systems and so on to also reflect the brand essence. You know, is it a corporation? Is it a fun place? Is it in Florida with its light and citrusy? Or is it a very beautiful Okie mall, classical building or or room with wood panelled, oak panelled, you know, so it would be a different fragrance. So that was sort of the forerunner of scent marketing and branding.

The comment that your daughter made I hear all the time. So that's an interesting story. When Chanel, when Coco Chanel wanted to create her fragrance, this was in the 19, early, very early 1920s, she was of becoming a couture designer and she realized that fragrance would be a really great extension of her brand of a fashion brand. She went to a very famous perfumer called Ernest Bo BEAUX and she said, Monsieur, I want to make a fragrance for the women I'm closing.

I want to make something fresh and feminine in very modern. And at that time, everything in the fragrance industry was very high quality, natural ingredients. And he was concocting formulas with a new molecule which was called aldehyde or aldehyde, a combination of al from alcohol and dehydrogenated carbon zone. So that became the word aldehydic. And aldehydic was a formula that was a molecule, but he infused it with some naturals. So it was a very powdery Monica molecule.

And he infused with some rose and Jasmine and so on. And he concocted this formula. So when she came to see him, he showed her all the different fragrances, and she smelled the first, second, third, fourth. Suddenly the fifth one, she said, oh, La La si magnifi gets so different. And it was this aldehyde formula, this molecule that was so different in the 1920s because everything in the 1920s was heavy and spicy and really dark. And this suddenly was powdery and different.

But what happened was it became so popular. Oh, So what happened was he went back to she said, you know, Jalam, I love it. He went back to his lab and he said to his assistant Jacques, what did you do? You put too much Elder Hidicon. See formula. It's a mistake. Guess what? The most profitable mistake in perfume history, but at that

time. Because as soon as you said powdery, I can picture in that sense, no matter where I am, I could walk down 5th Ave. or you know W 34th St. and say that person has on Chanel #5. But what happened? Another thing that makes Rose a little bit kind of old fashioned is because our mothers and grandmothers used to have a face powder that was also scented with rose.

And so when you put on the face powder and, and your children or whatever our mothers and grandmothers wore that we would kiss the grandmother or the mother hello. And the first thing you would think of is Oh, old lady, because that was the you see, scent and memory are so connected. So it's it's so tragic because I think rose is magnificent. There are rose powdery notes, which can be a little old fashioned. The Alder hit. It definitely has that Chanel

vibe. But I'm telling everybody, give florals a chance. Give rose and I made you a floral fragrance which has a lot of beautiful rose, rose, Jasmine, gardenia, frangipani, lilia, the valley and and cyclamen. Because to me, you have that beautiful sort of sense of femininity, and to me, that's what flowers are about. Well, it's interesting you say give the Rose, Give the Rose a try. Lancome just sent me the most stunning gift, and I've done some different campaigns with them.

And at first it was a book. I couldn't figure out why this was so heavy. There was this book hidden of all different rose gardens throughout the world. But it is 15 or 20 little tiny samples of their new rose line that they are launching. So rose is the base, OK. And they add Musk to this or Rosemary to this or Fern to this. It just smells delicious. Each 10 Bravo. I worked at Lancome. I know you mentioned that. And at that time I was helping

to develop the well. I was working on the original fragrance that they used and they had what's called Maggie Noir. Black magic and it was a heavy shipra which was dark and Patchouli and Marcy like when? Opium was launched. It was.

That's kind of, yes. It was a little more Patchouli though, and very sophisticated, very European and not really popular with Americans. But you know, as being miss, They used to call me Miss Maji because I was out there pumping and promoting and, you know, really positioning Maji noise, the fragrance. And then I helped to start to work on Tazor, which was the new fragrant. And then I never launched it because Tiffany hired me.

So I was whisked away from Lancome, but it's lovely that Lancome was coming because that was actually the heritage. You know, their logo is a rose, so it's great that they're promoting a rose fragrance. One of my other favorite Lancome campaigns I ever did was La Villa Spell, yes, and that, and I had never smelled that before. But oh, that's just a delightful 1. But it's funny too. You talk about since being, you know, put into things.

I think probably 1 of the only reasons I consistently go by Chanel blush is there is some, I don't know which of their perfumes is infused in that blush, but as soon as I put it on my face, I'm smiling. I just what is that connection

between scent and how we feel? It is absolutely critical and it is absolutely, you know, that is the hallmark of fragrance because our our olfactory system, our olfactory is totally connected to our limbic system, to the brain. So when you smell something, this aroma goes straight to the limbic system and it triggers a memory or emotion. And So what you smell at the time will remind you of what you're seeing or thinking or experiencing at the time.

And scent and memory are so aligned and so triggered that, you know, you can not see somebody or hear or think of somebody, but you can maybe smell something that will take you right back to when you're maybe high school or grade 5 or whatever, because it's such a powerful, powerful connection. And. I always think of the first woman I babysat for any time I smell Clinique aromatics. It's like Wendy. You see, I mean, you see in your

that that's a prime example. The other thing that is so critical about fragrance is that it's tied into our sense of taste. So this thing right here can go up to the memory and down to the taste. And so scent and memory, taste and smell are very connected. And there's the. Division when it comes with

perfumes then. Well, it's perfume, So what you're smelling on the perfume will trigger a memory and will help you think about something that from maybe from the past or it will give you that feeling of happiness and, and confidence

that you know you're smelling. You just said when you wear that, that rose blush, it makes you feel happy and confident because there's something in that formula that has a scent or an aroma that gives you that feeling of, you know, the dopamine that really makes you feel good. And what happened during COVID was something really tragic.

People lost their sense of smell because that was one of the the problems during COVID, the disorder that the olfactory bulb couldn't smell and it, it went it also to the taste, you couldn't taste. So during COVID, many people who never even thought about their sense of smell, you know, having a cup of coffee in the morning and smelling that wonderful coffee aroma, suddenly they didn't smell the aroma. What's going on here? They didn't realize it.

It was one of the symptoms of COVID anosmia. And millions of people throughout the world, throughout the ages have lost their sense of smell, but they don't think about it because it's nothing that we are taught from the second we're born, we align with our mothers because of that aroma, olfactory connection. And suddenly millions of people were affected by anosmia and they realized they couldn't

smell and they couldn't taste. And so people really went into a huge depression because think about this, everything to do with socialization revolves around food. It's made for lunch, for breakfast, for dinner, you know, parties, occasions, anniversaries, it's all got a food and, and wine and smell connection. Suddenly you can't smell, you can't taste. People got depressed, they didn't want to go out there and people literally and. So there's a big scent and mood

connection completely. Oh scent How? How? Because assuming we can smell, yes, where does that mood come in? Could certain cells smells make us feel less happy than others? Absolutely. And it also goes to trigger a memory. So let's let's talk about vanilla. So everybody, most people love vanilla because it makes you feel happy. And that's something, you know, vanilla cookies, vanilla ice

cream, vanilla lollipops. You know, when your mom, when you fell, you maybe to make you feel better, you got vanilla lollipop or vanilla ice cream. So that made you feel better. But the converse is what happens if you really broke something and you fell and you couldn't walk for six months and then suddenly your mom or the nurse gives you something vanilla and you're saying, oh, this reminds you of when I fell. So you see, the converse is true. It's a vanilla, which is a wonderful aroma.

An ingredient can trigger bad memories or good memories. And it's it doesn't doesn't mean it doesn't really rely on what fragrance or scent or ingredient it is. It is a connection to the experience, to the memory, to the activity at the time. So you have worked and advised a

lot of. Companies, when they are launching a perfume, when they're thinking about creating a scent, how do you help them avoid that quagmire of all those negative memories? What's does it? Is it a blend of things so one is not more overpowering? First of all, it's understanding what the brand ethos is. You know, a fragrance for a rocking a rock star, or you know somebody who's a, you know, 20. Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber. He's got a scent.

Right. That would not work well for somebody who's a classic, maybe pianist or an architect because or a brand or a company that has maybe an older demographic. So everything that I do revolves around the brand ethos. What is it, what who's the demographic? Where is their, who's their audience base? Who's where, who are they selling to? What is the advertising of the tagline? If it has a young vibe, then it should be something light and bright and citrusy, not heavy and dark.

And so I equate different ingredients with a different demographic and a different sensitivity and sensibility. Somebody who's somebody who's, you know, very, let's say as a woman who's very sophisticated, who's wearing Chanel, who's wearing, you know, and it also depends on her age. So there are certain fragrances that will embellish and reflect that demographic, that vibe, that brand, and there are others

that will be a total disconnect. Does that also have to do with hormones, like hormones that might be more prevalent in someone younger, you know, connecting with that scent versus someone who's older? Well, I think, I think definitely has to do with age, possibly hormones.

I, I'm not a scientist, so I don't really can go and talk about that, But you know, we hormones will also give you a sense of either feeling confident and happy or it'll start to get you crazy and get you, you know, agitated depending on where you are searching for women and where they are in their cycle. But I don't think it has. I I'm not sure about fragrance with hormones, but I know fragrance and memory and connecting your brand essence is

something that people look for. And when you, when you think of, let's say the scent, the Dior scent that Johnny Depp advertises versus yeah, okay, do you, where do you think the marketing is versus the scent that makes, let's say a guy will bring guys into this discussion, makes a guy say I'm going to be cooler, sexy or this or that? The minute I put that on, how much do you think is the advertising versus the cent or is it just the whole thing versus Johnny Depp, you know?

Well, I think also certain companies want to align themselves with certain celebrities for the marquee value. Now, truthfully, you know, Au Sauvage is a classic deal men's fragrance. It's got citrus notes, it's got some spicy notes. It's a sophisticated fragrance that was always for basically young men. It has a citrus brightness and it has a youth element to it. Here comes Johnny Depp, who's totally the antithesis of that. He's not youthful. He's not, you know, a citrus vibe.

He's he can be a little dark. He can be a little, you know, the Pirates of Caribbean and all these things, these. But he's a name. And I think he did the blue He he also did, yeah, something blue, I think blue Chanel. So there are companies that will tie into a celebrity for the marquee value. And it has nothing to do with the fragrance. To me, that's not such a good idea. I mean, I think America is totally obsessed with celebrities.

And sometimes the celebrity connotation and partnership and branding works, and sometimes it doesn't at all. I would agree with that. I mean, I will say there, I'm sure there's, this is maybe it's terrible for me to say, but where we have blunt conversations here, I'm sure there are some celebrity that if I knew they were advertising in particular perfume or fragrance, it would be the last one I would

want to be known to say with. So it's very interesting talk talking about that marketing and the the risk there. Yeah, and, and some celebrities are so, you know, besotted about the money and the royalties that it might be hard to turn down. But you know, in that in those instances, I think that they're selling out or the companies are selling out to a celebrity because celebrities also have to protect their brand image.

I remember years ago when Cher launched her fragrance, I think it was called Unforgotten or and. Something like that. And you know, everything about it was awful. They launched it. They launched it in a very select tight distribution. You know, Cher was a worldwide celebrity and, and an artist and a brilliant actress and, you know, not to take anything away from her, but her notoriety and her fanbase was, you know, all over the world. And the company launched it in a

very select distribution. And the, you know, I, I got that the cap fell off the cut, the fragrance discoloured the, the bottle. And so everything about it was forgettable. And I, and I, I'm sorry everybody, but I think but the fragrance is called Unforgotten or Miss or something like that. And people didn't like it. You know, I'll tell you, Lady Gaga, when she launched her first fragrance and it was all the ingredients were all really

awful, blood, sperm. And she came up with this bottle and they launched it at Macy's. And it was a huge flop because, you know, Lady Gaga is such a brilliant personality and the talent, but she went a little wild or they went a little wild in terms of the fragrance, and it didn't, it didn't connect to the audience at all. So there can be some mistakes. I didn't understand that when I'm like that is so dark. You have you have such a pop club, fun audience.

People like to dance to your music. Why are you going into the over the over the edge Satanism

almost. It was very bizarre. What does what do the scent we choose say about us as people? Do certain personalities gravitate towards certain sense? What have you learned from what you've done customizing Sense

for people? So I created 18 different fragrance blends and I take people on a fragrance journey. First of all, I invite them to take the Cent quiz, which people can take online too, on my website, suephillips.com, because there are so many different ingredients and so many fragrance families that it's confusing. So I narrowed it down to four fresh, floral, woodsy, spicy. It's so easy to even think about that.

But when they take the scent quiz or they go online and take the scent quiz, there are, especially when they meet with me, I go through all eighteens. So they go on a fragrance journey and as they're smelling and they're putting the one to the left that they like, the one in the middle that they may not like, or the one to the right, which they definitely don't like, we narrow it down to what they like.

I would say that young people definitely like light, bright fragrances. In fact, I always give the analogy that Americans love fresh and clean. Everything you know that on our grocery shelves is lemon Pledge citrus bright clean. That's sort of the, the, the vibe and the mentality that Americans have to be clean and bright and they shower three times a day because that's our DNA here. Europeans love florals and English like lavender. The South Americans love spicy.

The Japanese don't wear fragrance, but they give it as gifts. And in the Middle East, everything is ood, heavy ood and incense. And so there are different, you know, cultural preference, just the way there is food. You know, certain cultures love a certain, I mean, you go to India and everything is very spicy. You go to France and everything is just, you know, so creamy and and and very tasty, not very

spicy. You go to the Middle East and everything is in the sort of spicy, aromatic balsamic, balsamic and vanilla's and so on. So there is something to be said about cultural differences in food, in music and in fragrance. That is fascinating. See what you learn here. Yes, I'm learning a lot from you. My guest is Sue Phillips, and we are talking about sense, and she is a foremost expert on this topic in the world. So I hope you're really paying attention here because there's a lot to learn.

Now. I have a OK, you have a book.

Here during the COVID, When COVID happened, I had to shut down my boutique and business came to us halt. And I'd love, I love writing and I'd written so many articles about fragrance for different publications. And finally I said to myself, well, self, there's no business. You may as well do what you love. So I wrote a book called the power of Perfume and it's, it's you know, it's got a lot of different chapters of different. It's not a very heavy tone. It's very informative,

educational and fun reading. And the reason I did it is because I wanted to get the message out that fragrance is so magical and so powerful because of all the things we've talked about. It connect your sense of smell and sense of taste, memory and emotion. And it makes you, when you wear a fragrance that you love and that reflects who you are, which is probably a custom fragrance, and people compliment you on it and they say, Oh my God, you smell beautiful. What does that make you do?

It makes you sit up straight. It makes you smile. It makes you feel confident and it makes you feel special because guess what? There's nobody else in the world that has that fragrance except you. So that's sort of what I love. And there's a lot of truth in what you just said because there, I can't think of the place. It's downtown where you can go and have a custom perfume made. And I was one time I met this woman. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you smell so good. I just love that scent.

So that Christmas my husband said, well, you know, he's always looking for things for Christmas. I said, listen, forget all that other stuff you're thinking about. I just want this particular bottle of perfume. And let me tell you, it does not smell like that on me. I cannot wear it nicely. So that in itself is an interesting. Because what you were smelling on her reflected well with her body chemistry and her DNA and what when it came to you, it

didn't reflect who you are. It was different. People don't know that, you know, So we are all sort of besotted with different fragrances by different celebrities and designers and the hottest new fragrance you want, but the hottest new fragrance might not suit your

body chemistry. And that is one of the reasons that I've been able to really talk to people and help people and create beautiful perfumes and get their responses and their reviews when they create, when they wear a fragrance that has been created especially for them, they.

Are do this for people and create custom. Sense yes, both in person when you come to my boutique and we do, I give you the same personality quiz and go through the quiz and then we go through old 18 blends and based on your reaction, I see if a person's eyes light up, if they smile or if they frown. It's all just do with their facial expressions and their their connection with the fragrance that they're smelling. So it's very psychological on

some level. Very psychological and it's, it's so palpable because I can see in somebody's facial expression exactly what's going on in the mind. I love it. I hate it. I think it's good. I'm not sure. Yes, I love it. This reminds me of so it's A and then at the end they narrow it down to 3 or 4 blends. I call them blends and they create something that is amazing. And what's fascinating for me is that I'm able to do this with people I don't know, I've never

met. It's just they take the send quiz online and they tell me, oh, I like, you know, Au Sauvage or I like Chanel or I like something else. But, and many fragrances have been discontinued. So they are desperate for their fragrance. And then I go and research what their fragrance was that has been discontinued. And I see what the breakdown of the notes are. And then I look at the ascent results and I'm able to come up with something. I, I was blown away the other day.

I had created this fragrance for this gentleman. He didn't know me. He found me. He said basically I found you online. I've been searching, searching, searching for ages for this, my perfect sense. And he told me what he liked too very, you know, very, you know, not really modern popular fragrances, but very sort of obscure. And I saw his scent results and I saw the fragrances.

I looked them up. I was able to find that one was leathery and one was very sort of, well, maybe I'll say woodsy. But I created something for him which was very complex. And then he wrote to me before I sent it, he said, can you make me a larger size bottle? So that was great. He wanted a larger size without even smelling it. I sent it to him. It never got to him because somebody from the building saw the package, whatever it was, and stole it. So he wrote back.

He said, I said, did you, did you get the send? He said, no, I didn't. I said, OK, He said, I want to get it again. I said, OK, I'll make it for you. So this time I sent to Tim the different package, different shipping and so on. And he wrote to me the day that he got it, he said, I am blown away. It is absolutely what I want. Everything about is magnificent. And then two days later, he wrote to me. He said I've already had four compliments from people. So now he wants to really help

build my brand. But when I hear comments like that, when I've been able to create something so different and so complex and so meaningful for the client, it just makes me so thrilled and happy. That is such a wonderful story.

I want to talk to you about perfume etiquette. Yes. Oh, OK. I have a feeling you know where I'm going. There are people that put on so much perfume and Cologne, and I'm a hugger. I always love to hug people, but I really don't want to smell like them for the rest of the day, especially if it's a terrible scent and then I'm gagging or my eyes are starting to water. What is perfume etiquette? And first of all, let's start with where should we apply perfume?

Perfect. So I always tell the story that perfumers have been creating fragrances and perfumes for centuries, but people don't really know where to wear. So the original sort of perfume etiquette, or where you wear perfume, was to create it and put it in all your pulse points. So where are the pulse points? At the ankles, women used to

wear long flowing skirts. They would apply to the ankles and the swishing of the skirts would make the fragrance lift up behind the knees, in between the thighs, in the bazoom area, at the pulse points and wherever you want to be kissed. And so the perfumers used to say this. So he said, what does the Americans do? Do a schwitzia and a schwitzia, who does? They attacked the birds and the clouds because fragrance rises.

So one of the things that I always believe in, the fragrances should be put on the pulse points, not on the hair, not on the back of the neck, because you can't smell it, and not on clothes. But many people spray fragrance on clothes. First of all, it'll damage your clothes. If you have anything light, it might stay in your clothes. Some of the fragrance and chemicals might affect the materials if you're wearing.

Depending on what kind of fabric, it could be a polyester, or it could be rayon, or it could be something else and it'll distort the fragrance. And it's not a good idea to wear fragrance and clothes because you might wear one fragrance today, something tomorrow or the next day, and then the previous fragrance lingers on your outfit, which is not a good thing. Fragrance is meant to be worn on

cold, cool, unscented skin. So when you come out of the shower or the bath, what you do is you can always use an unscented body lotion. Unscented and then you could apply your fragrance to your pulse points and on your areas and that will warm skin. I, I said cool, I meant warm skin. So the warmth of your skin will help diffuse the fragrance and it will be a beautiful fragrance. I do agree with you. Many people spray too much fragrance on their clothes, on

their hair. And so when you're kissing them, you, you know, the lingering fragrance will transport to you. And, you know, you said it's a bad fragrance. Well, it's a bad fragrance for you. They think it's a fabulous fragrance. So you see there again, you don't know. So people should really wear the fragrance for themselves on their skin and not try and reflect and, you know, encourage everybody else to wear the same fragrance because it's not going

to be the same. It's not going to smell the same. You know, you mentioned something. Interesting. Don't put it on your clothes because you might wear a different fragrance to you. If you were going to guess how many people who enjoy perfume or fragrances, how many do you think of different types the average person might own? Do they? Do they rotate? Or do people define a signature for themselves? Many people define. A signature.

And then when the signature fragrance has been discontinued and they're searching, searching, searching for something new, they become, you know, trying to, you know, like Hercule Parrot trying to find the right fragrance. And sometimes they'll, they'll try different figures. I'll go to the store, they'll try different fragrances and

they'll judge the reaction. Many people love their own signature scent, but many people also want to have a fragrance, a different fragrance for a different mood or a different occasion. So you know you wouldn't wear the same fragrance to an outdoor sporting activity that you then you would to a black tie fancy dinner party. So if you if you, that's a very interesting point.

How? Would you, if you were advising someone, how would you advise them to think differently for that black tie event versus the afternoon the same the? Same as you're wearing different clothes, you would never wear the same outfit that you're wearing at a black tie for a polo match. As much as you love that black tie outfit, that's inappropriate for an outdoor tennis, golfing, polo match. So certain fragrances would be

not appropriate. Now, if you have your own custom scent and it's been created for you and it really reflects who you are, it has nothing to do with the activity. It has to do with you. So then you could wear that fragrance to anyone, any place because it becomes your signature. So I know it's a little bit of a dichotomy, but it makes sense. But if you know if you.

Have if you have a fragrance that has been created for you and you love it and it reflects who you are and you want to own it and celebrate yourself, you could wear it wherever because it's not going to be a disconnect. Whereas if you wear something very heavy and very spicy and very, you know, dark and and complex to a black tie dinner, which is not your fragrance, and you wear that same fragrance to an outdoor polo match, it's a disconnect. You know, I'm curious. You talked.

About different it, well, I want to ask you a question first. Fragrance, scent, perfume, Cologne.

Is there a difference between them all? What is the? What are what are those differences? The difference is the concentration. So perfume is the most concentrated. If you think of a bottle, an empty bottle. So you have 30% of your actual perfume concentration, the perfume ingredient and that's all you're allowed around that percentage. The FDA and ocean, all these regulatory bodies have determined that this is the measurement.

And then you add the alcohol, denatured alcohol and different kinds of water so that. So perfume is a liquid. It's different than essential oils. Essential oils has a consistency of say like olive oil, very heavy, very occlusive. It doesn't really penetrate into your skin. It stays on the top and you have to rub it in to really let it absorb. So perfume is the most concentrated, it's the highest level, it's the the strongest version.

The more you dilute it with denatured alcohol and water, it becomes ode perfume, which literally means water of perfume, then ode toilette and then Cologne, ode Cologne. So it's just a matter of concentrate. It has nothing to do with perfume is for women and Cologne is for men. It became a generic term for women's fragrances, perfume and Cologne for men. But actually men can wear perfume, women can wear Cologne. It's just a question of the strength and the concentration

that was that was a great. Educational point. So much of this is in my book too. What do you have here? You have a. Variety of items sitting in front of you so I just bought some of. These atomizers that we use, I love to use sort of interesting refillable products. So these are I, I call them twist and swivel. You twist, you open it up and then there is a bottle in here. So there's look at that and. So you would be able to refill the bottle exactly. So you take it off, you're

untwisted. See, I, I really love sustainability. I, I hate throwing away beautiful bottles. And so this becomes very nice and then I have smaller sizes, which is fun too. They twist and swivel and I, I made one for you, which is in the Rose gold. And then I have this art, this packaging and I love again, sister. So this is a little sash satin sachet. I descended in gold, purple and black.

Most men love the black brushed atomizer with the black sachet and then women happen to love the gold and black and looks. This looks very Chanel in the gold and then the Rose gold can come with purple or so. So these are really sort of my version of sustainability so that you don't have to throw

them away. You can always refill them and get refills, which I think is nice because people love these they, they sit in this, you know, carry them in your handbag, your purse or a gentleman's pocket and they're fun. You can travel with them. The largest 1 is only 20ML, just under an ounce. So it's perfectly safe to travel with it on, on the planes, you know, we mentioned. You mentioned Coco Chanel, starting with Chanel #5 and that powdery scent.

I'm curious over the decades we talked about countries having their own kind of unique scent or vibe or go to that the masses seem to prefer regionally decade wise does.

Does desire for certain? Sense change over the decade? Absolutely it's. In my book, again fragrance through the decades. So you think about in the 1920s or 1910, actually 1904 Coke Cote, Francois Cote was a real human being. He was a perfumer and he created a fragrance called Chipra CHYPRES, which really comes from the, the place called Cyprus. And when he went there, he, he, he experienced this overwhelming, heavy, deep,

mossy, Patchouli, leathery type. And he made a fragrance in 1904 called Coty. So that was the fragrance in 1904. In 1910 there was a fragrance called Valdenois by Shalimar, I think. And then there was Chanel #5 in 1920. In the 30s, there were all kinds of different fragrances in the 40s and 50s. So in America suddenly came and there were a lot of European fragrances in the 60's, the first sort of American designer fragrances, Norman Norell and.

He created. A fragrance called Norell NORELL, which is a beautiful, also very heavy green fragrance. Then came the and then came the 70s. Remember Revlon created a fragrance called Charlie. Oh yes. You know she my next door neighbor wore it all the time. You know the the model. Whoever the model caller, Charlie. Yeah. Was that Sybil Shepherd? No, it was not her that. Lauren Hutton. Lauren Hutton. And she would stride. Down. It was the start of sort of

women's Lib and independence. And she wasn't in a dress, she was in a pantsuit. Yeah, it's right in her 50s. So this was 70s. In the 80s, it was the first sort of celebrity fragrance. Remember Miss Elizabeth Taylor? She came up with passion. See, I'm remembering my fragrance history in the 90s. So in the 80s everything was totally excess luxuries, extravagance, over the top, big shoulder pads. Remember the the the TV series Dynasty Exactly. As soon as you said shoulder

pads exactly exactly. So the 90s was a total reversal and those two stars. Was it Linda Evans and Joan Collins? Both had their own perfumes? Eventually, yes. Then in the 90s, things reversed. Things became very, very watery and very, you know, lighter in the 2000 was going back to the millennial. People wanted to go back because it was a whole new century and a whole new thing.

So they went back to the classics, the Shalimars, the art page, and so and then in 2010 a whole new thing emerged and the many celebrities and designer fragrances. But this is sort of where customization came to be. People were tired of sort of aligning with celebrities and designers for the disconnect. And so customization became really important. And that's sort of when I started in 2012 my custom fragrance business.

And so I can take you through fragrance through the decades and, you know, it's still customization. And now it's really about personalization. Exactly, exactly. Oh my gosh. Sue Phillips. I could keep talking to you for

hours, but we're at the end of this show. If you were going to give someone less parting words on personalizing your scent, what would you say? I would say. Don't fall into the trap of wanting what everybody else wants. Reflect who you are, be passionate, be confident, and know that your persona is going to be what attracts people to you, not the fragrance that 25,000,000 other people are wearing. So personalization, being confident and reflecting your individuality and your

personality is important. Why wear what everybody else wears? Because perfume is the signature of your soul. That is 1. Great wrap up. I'm going to be thinking about that as I smell so good thanks to the perfume you gave me. I'm Diane Grissell. This has been the Silver despedience perception dynamics podcast. My guest today has been Sue Phillips. She is a fragrance expert who is world renowned. Below you will be able to find her links to her website to her

social media. I highly encourage you take the free perfume test that's right on her website. I'm going to go take it because now I'm very curious what is my scent? Even though I smell delicious right now thanks to a gift from Sue. So please subscribe, please tell your friends about this episode, share it and see you soon.