Are You Lonesome Tonight? Do you miss me tonight? Are you sorry? We drifted does your mate guys. Welcome to another episode of significant lovers where Kellen Mel, we are cousins and we've been doing this since 2018, you might know us from I'm a Twilight podcast called another vital Twilight. Hmm. Now we do this, show about romance, love, heartbreak couples. And this is a podcast for
anybody who. Someone recently said this, who feels like Love Comes easier to everybody else but themselves. Yeah, it's not true, honey. It's not true. Nope. Even for the Rich and Famous. Yep. For the hi Lisa. This is the cated for the stylus for the you are and oh my gosh, it's so hard for everybody. Nobody knows what they're doing and this podcast has really made me feel a lot less alone in this confusing life that we all have. I feel like I've just felt such
compassion for people. Yeah yeah I mean everyone about people. Yeah. Like if you ever feel like you're messy like people have been Messier and if you've ever I feel like you just went through the worst breakup. Ever, someone's been through worse worst and survived. Yep, I'm excited. I'm so excited for today. It feels like it's been a while. I know. Yeah, yeah, one thing is a lot of people have been getting a little bold telling us lately about our voices. We just like for people or
three, I don't know. But it's weird because we did do a podcast for years, another bite of Twilight and no one ever said this to us. Maybe Twilight fans are just Mr. Beebop I guess this podcast reaches more people. So, and I'm really grateful for all the new listeners we have. We have really awesome new peeps listening in on our patreon.
So thank you so much. But yeah, we have had a couple of people criticizing us, so, you know, we don't need more of it, we hear you, but this is who we are, this is just how we sound. So I'm not going to Speech language pathologist. I'm not going to change my voice. It's just how we talk. And yep. Yeah someone said I sometimes talk with a baby voice. You know I just have a youthful voice. Exacts, just me. And that person also said, which this person said they, they said
they were very sweet. And I don't want research. Which oh, that's the part. I'm going to focus on. Ya did say that it sounds like I'm chewing on my Invisalign. I don't tell them. Yeah but we've got a ton of super sweet messages and nice reviews and if you guys like the show, I'm going to be really appreciate review. Yeah, but yeah it happens. But yeah did we don't need anymore but of that we already know we hear you hopefully they
listen to this episode. Anyway anyways, so today's episode it's a tough one it's a one that's been requested a few times but it's quite Tragic who it is. The love story of America's Prince JFK, jr. The little boys, we think his father's casket, who could forget him and his beautiful bride? The mysterious Carolyn Bessette sorry, buddy, laughing, because of the bravado, is very serious. No, but I'm really excited.
I have always wanted to learn more about the Kennedys and, but I never really have feel like, I'd like to someday sit on the beach with a big book about them. Oh, yeah. But you're gonna teach me a lot, do I know anything? So, obviously there's a lot of conspiracy theories about the Kennedy family and doing this episode. It made me really understand why there's so many conspiracies because because I used to think well it's a big family obviously a lot of tragedy is going to
happen. If you have that many people in your family like bad stuff happens to everyone, but what are the odds? Is that like all these people in this one family, meet all these untimely tragic. Yes, it's awful. Can't be a coincidence. No, I mean, I bet there's like, like the JFK assassination. Oh yeah, of course there's Atkins. Like there's something Shady going on there. Definitely. But for some reason that doesn't intrigue me as much. I don't know.
It's like I didn't treats me, but I have never looked too far into it. My family went to Dallas. Is couple years ago. And the only thing we did there like the one thing we had to do my brother was like we have to go to where JFK was assassinated. It was actually so boring, like kind of weird that they made a hole like a tourist attraction. They have a plaque about it or anything. Yeah, they have a whole museum. Oh wow. Whoa.
Interested, a very sad thing. Anyway, so this episode I used the following Source material America's reluctant Prince, the life of John F. Kennedy jr. By Steven M Gillen. This is the book. I probably use the most, okay? And then another book called, what remains A Memoir of Fate friendship and Love by Carolina Roswell, who is John's cousin's wife? So John's cousin named Anthony, he'll come up. This episode. Okay, that's it.
John's like best friend. Cousin, kind of like me and Kelly. Oh, and she is now a housewife on like one of those Housewives shows, you guys Moe really, mmm, what? And then, there's another book called The Kennedy curse by Edward Klein, which I think is a little controversial, but I just included. There's a lot of salacious material and not as well. Know how could you use them? Get out of here. What three words would you use to describe this relationship? I would say fire. Yuri.
Oh good. Looking nice and tragic ours. Isn't it nice when they're good looking you know oh my God - all the different think I mean this episode really made me realize to like just how much people love good-looking people. Yeah. Because like even true you guys might know that like there's a lot of conspiracies about JFK jr. Specifically with q and on and how they believe that he's secretly Live and he's been a trump supporter, all the giant a couple years ago.
They believed that he was like going to come out of a rally and like backup Trump and I was like that's kind of cute that they like really want to believe that and I think it's because he's so good-looking. You're like yeah they're like we really want this guy to be on our side because yeah this All-American hunky guy. I think that's part of the appeal to Kennedy's. Yeah. Like and I think people want to have a good-looking politician. Oh 100. That's why.
Oh my gosh. That's why the Kennedys were So popular. And then when JFK and Jackie, hit the scene, like they were the most stylish presidential car. Yeah. Anyone had ever seen, and like, this is the first time that, like, they had TVs, right? Showing the presidential family. Yeah. I mean, you have to be confident and it is unfair, but people definitely prefer a competent person. Who is also nice to look at exactly easy. On the eyes.
Makes all the difference. But yeah, I mean, you guys know who JFK jr. Was, I don't know that much I need. I need background. Alright, so he, so he's obviously the son of the late JFK and his wife, Jackie. He was in his mom's belly during the presidential campaign. Wow. Her his dad, he was born premature on November 25th 1965 in Washington DC with an older sister Carolyn who's like three years older than him. Him and he was the youngest child to live in the White House since ss-sir.
Kennedy in 1893. Oh, and Americans. Just loved having kids in the white house. It was so exciting to have a little baby in the White House. TV was such a new medium at the time. And so it's suddenly felt like it was this intertwining of politics but also cultural stories like people liked to feel close to The presidential family in a way that they had never before. Yeah. Makes sense like public interest stories. Yeah, politics, were crossing over.
His parents had a pretty troubled marriage JFK Was a Serial cheater, and so he definitely took advantage of TV to paint this wholesome image of their family. Darn it and he really relied on the two little kids John, who went by John John and Carolyn for public support. John Donne this. Author. Stephen Gillen, says that there was a steady stream of sanitized, images of a mythical portrait of the Kennedys that represented the ideal American Family healthy happy and devoid
of conflict. But that obviously was not true JFK. We can dream, he would go to parties with Jackie and then go hook up with like an intern in. The Next Room is really kind of sleazy. You also had a lot of health problems to that. People didn't know about. I know, I've people want us to do them too. We probably will someday but I'm feel like it's gonna be a downer but I do things like they still loved each other, like Jackie's told ya to him in would just
turn a blind eye. Like there was a sense of acceptance with it. Yeah, so much cheating. I know. But John John, and his dad did have a pretty silly relationship for the couple of years that they knew each other. He would hide underneath his dad's desk and he would sneak secretly, take gum from him because Jackie wouldn't let him chew gum.
Hmm and Jackie was also very protective If Mom of John and Carolyn but she did really want her kids to live a normal life and she frequently would fight with the photographers, and with the press and also with the Secret Service, and she was just really easy Clash with them about how involved the Secret Service were to be in their life.
Like even one time, John had almost drowned in a pool, and Jackie got mad at the Secret Service because she didn't want them to help save the kids from drowning, because she saw that as her responsibilities as a mom. You're sitting and she said that the Secret Service could only step in if someone was trying to kidnap or take the kids away, what they couldn't intervene like normal accidents. That it could happen to every other child see.
I mean, I guess I see what she's saying, but you'd think that, if they were gonna die, you know, he'll know exactly. But thankfully he didn't drown. Mmm. What? Well, I think people know, I mean, his life was really marked by tragedy very early on because as, you know, his father, JFK was assassinated when John was only just shy of three years old, very famous picture of straw, and saluting his dad's casket.
And this author Stephen Gillen wrote that Salute by that little boy in the blue at his father's casket. Cemented the belief that John would be the natural heir to his father's Legacy. One of John's Great greatest achievements was the ability to Except those expectations with enormous Grace, while never allowing them to distort, his core sense of self. So people always saw him as like, a prince in a way that I don't know. I almost feel like he loved reading this book.
He was like Hamlet or Simba. Yeah, you feel just expected that some day. He was going to take over for his father and be president. And of course, like he even had the same name, right? And so there was just a huge burden, placed on him at a very young age. I do think people do kind of see. The Kennedys is an American royalty. You yeah. Definitely. I mean, they like this just wasn't closeness and familiarity with them. Yeah, after his father died, it
was pretty traumatic for him. The family had to move three times and that next year and his mom was very unavailable because she was so depressed with the grief of her husband dying. And he was described as very restless and rambunctious and mischievous and some speculate that was maybe an outgrowth of the trauma that he experienced. I know that he had been on Ritalin from a very young age, seems like he had ADHD or
something. And he was just very kind of a Class Clown, I guess you could say, he had a lot of cousins. That was really close with, especially as cousin, Anthony radziwill. And his mom side him, my cousin, you and your cousin's. His mom. Also, like in the For JFK dying, she really projected that idea of Camelot. So the American people which came from a quote that she had said, like, for a brief second. There was Camelot, which meant that all was perfect.
If JFK had just not died, just like ideal way of life for the American, people would still be going on. And again, this author said that JFK jr. Symbolized, a lost world. A world switch, many Americans, wish to return. Turn. Underlying this desire was a belief that John Would One Day lead the nation back to the promised land a time, that existed more people's imaginations than in reality.
And so with that idea of Camelot placed upon the legacy of JFK it inadvertently burdened, the expectations on to JFK jr. That like some day he would carry out this. Yes, reality people could go back to especially with the Nostalgia for the 1950s. Right? And he experienced a lot of other trauma than his uncle. Bobby. Kennedy was later.
Assassinated when John was only seven years old, which was probably even more traumatic, because he actually knew Bobby and he had kind of stepped up like a second father to him. That's insane. Wow. And then like there's obviously a lot of fear that like the kids weren't safe, and something was going to happen to them, and it just created this huge sense of anxiety. It throughout the rest of his childhood, I bet.
But some speckled ODOT caused him to live on the edge even more because he almost had this fearlessness about him. Hmm. I could die anytime. Okay, yeah, he had the sense of like, anything, really matters, man. And he also has mom remarried when he was tween. I don't know, the specifics, but to a man named Aristotle Aristotle Onassis who was This really rich Greek man. I'm on the only really did
businessman. Yeah. And John had a somewhat complicated relationship with him, but he also died when John was only 15 years old? She and actually, John's stepbrother through that marriage re actually died in a plane crash when John was 13. She's a lot of fucked. Yeah, a lot of tragic things. Excuse my language. But yeah. So then as a teenager, John attended Phillips Academy where he studied acting and he wanted to study acting professionally in college. But Jackie wouldn't let him.
She actually submitted his college application to Brown University where he studied pre-law, he also played rugby and was in a frat and acted in a few plays know. He was an actor. Yo, it was really a renaissance man, lot of different things. He was just grabbed in school as having attention deficit, being popular, warm, and funny humble adventurous. A lover of life. You know, Roenick sense of humor and love telling stories. He didn't take himself too seriously handsome, a gym buff,
what working on his body. Never met a mirror who didn't leg 61 with rock salt. Okay? Throw good sexual, he loved getting facials. Mm-hmm. He was just extremely patient with people like people would come up and grab him and talked about him. Some people would even Heckle him like, say bad things about his dad. He never really reacted to it. He kind of had a chill dude. It seems I'm really popular guy. I definitely. But in a good way. Yeah.
And a good way like he was the kind of popular guy, that's like still nice to people that's nice. And before dating Carolyn, he was a little bit of a womanizer, he'd often overlap with his girlfriend's Woman as a woman as a woman, but I guess his reasoning for that was to throw off the press. I wouldn't know who he was dating, but he always had to seem like he was in a relationship, and some people wouldn't Hound him. I feel like that's just an excuse, but he did Madonna for
six months in the 80s. What I guess you later, so that he had a frightening temper. Mmm. And he in the mid nineties, had a really serious relationship. With an actress, Christina. Hag her Hague. She also dated Sarah Jessica, Parker, 46 months in the 90s, I didn't know that. Hmm, and what? Yeah, and then he dated Daryl, Hannah the actress from that movie Steel Magnolias. Oh, I've never seen it was
having an easier time talking. Okay, so then who is Carolyn, Carolyn Carolyn really confusing because There's Carole radziwill, who wrote that book. Yeah. And there's also his sister Caroline and then there's Carol in, that is confused. So these Carol Carolyn, Carolyn these women are really gonna cause some Susan. This episode Caroline was born on January 7th, 1966, in White, Plains, New York. I guess that makes her a Capricorn. She was very into astrology.
Actually, when always guess people sign, we met them. So, Important to her, we all know, someone like that and don't we, she liked to read people, her dad. William was a kitchen designer and her mom was a school admin and she had two older sisters, who were twins Lisa. And Lauren, there were two years older than her and when she was just six years old, her parents divorce, and her dad had left her mom. And I don't think she had a close relationship with him after that.
And then her mom remarried in 1973 to a chief of Orthopedics. Surgery and the family moved to Old Greenwich. Connecticut fancy and Karen went to st. Mary's High School in Connecticut and she was voted the ultimate beautiful person. She was remembered as being incredibly sweet and dated the star of the football player. She was very, very popular. Whoa. Okay. We got two popular kids. Yes. So then she went to Boston University and her reputation wasn't good there. Why? I don't know.
No, I don't know. There's no way. Okay. Like there's been a lot of negative stuff about Carolyn in this episode, and it makes me feel bad because she died so young and like, uh, it's like, she never got a chance to tell her son.
And then I was, yeah, I took an edible and when I'm done after putting all this research together, and I was getting really paranoid, like, not to go back to the conspiracies, but what I want to hear it. I don't know what the Kennedy family has just so much power and influence. Like is it possible that they for whatever reason would have wanted to paint Carolyn in a negative light? Oh do you think this information came out after she was with him or after? Well, I died.
A lot of it did. Come out while she was with him too. Okay. But I don't know if that's just because their relationship was breaking down so much. And like do you think it's possible? They like wanted her to seem like a bad guy in the relationship. It's Isabel reminding me of you. Like you know that family and the show you who's season. Yeah. Where it's like they have so much influence and they can. Yeah. They can just get a guy and like change the story. Yeah.
Making these possible. I felt the same way in the Maryland episode because it was so sad that she died, but then I was like, oh yeah, she was cheating, It's just sad because it's like she died. I'm not to jump have like she died when she was so young that, like, at that age, you are really messy. And there is, yeah. Stuff that you're figuring out and like mmm to die at a time, like that. Like, you just never really get the chance to look back at your life and be like, wow, I was
really. Yeah, in a rough place that or, you know, I made some mistakes like just don't have that perspective that you would later on. So, totally. I think that people don't know what they're doing in their early twenties. Yeah, as someone who is not that far from it, I don't even like people that kind of overlap relationships and stuff. It's like, they're just figuring it. Exactly. It's not like the worst sin in the world. Yeah, but anyway, what was the
reputation? Like, was she bullying? People was, she was also, she wasn't in any clubs or didn't Esports, and that's not a big deal. She never made Dean's List, who cares? That's fine. Yeah, but she, she was very much known for her active social life, dating a lot of influential men on campus and people, Describe her as a boyfriend stealer. Oh, I guess a friend she worked with remembered that. She had one time said.
Well a friend said, that didn't matter if the men that she desired, we're already in relationships, Carolyn had apparently once plotted to steal her boyfriend. So her friends friend her friend's boyfriend, who was a hockey player and she would pretend to be humble and then turn around and be a complete snob. When she was hanging out with the fashion people. Oh, and while I'd be you, she worked at the Calvin. Klein store in Chestnut. Hill, run that she worked with.
Remembers that. She asked who her dream guy was in? Carolyn responded. John F. Kennedy jr. I'm going to get him. I'm going to move to New York and I'm gonna get him. How do people always do this? It's crazy or manifestation. Wow, you know. Okay, that's really shitty of her and I'm Not excusing it people but she probably was really insecure mmm because I'm the reason people act that way. Yeah exactly. It gives them a Power Trip. Yeah.
But deep down she was probably so insecure about herself that she had to put up this fake self. Yeah, that makes me really sad though because she was so beautiful especially to be voted by her. High school is the ultimate beautiful person that's true. Why are sometimes? I don't know, but maybe he's a lot of people who are always regard. For their looks like they don't know what else to fall back on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah true. I mean, she might need constant validation that people still think she's attractive. Yeah. It's still working. Blah blah blah. That's so true. You know, I guess when asked what she wanted to do with her life, she said I want to be famous. Maybe if I hook up at the right guy I'm going to be famous. I mean, yeah, I famous you can sell this for a million dollars because I'm gonna be fine. That's from Degrassi. So she received her degree in early childhood education.
Didn't really use that though. Because after graduation, she did marketing for clubs and continue to work at the Calvin Klein store where she's been spotted by the president of Calvin. Klein Calvin. Klein's women's collection and he invited her to move to New York. What? Have a job? A company accommodating celebrity clients is because she's gonna be oh my God. She just had this Essence about her. That was so. Attractive to people. And she wasn't intimidated by any celebrities.
She just acted very nonchalant and chill around them. How did she get this confident mean? It sounds like her parents were wealthy but like, kitchen designer. I don't get it. I'm not sure if she had, she had a little bit of a fiery personality. So before dating John, she had been in a relationship with the Calvin. Klein model named, Michael bergeon, And wow. In this one article with the writer of that book, The Kennedy curse. He had apparently said there was
one time. When Carolyn saw me at a bar lighting, a cigarette for an ex-girlfriend Carolyn came over pushed the girl out of the way and my face and screamed and yelled at me and even drew a little blood from my face. I went home and two minutes later, Carolyn was at my door. I had to let her in or she would have knocked the whole building down. I had these tall heavy religious
candle. Candles and she threw one through the window smashing the window pane and another at the mirror above the fireplace mantle, which shattered then she knocked the television set and BCR onto the floor and jumped on my VCR in squash dib oh my God I just pried the money rest in peace I know I just but that's so imagine I know it's really loud. Breaking Windows. Wow. Well, you know, it's entertaining. Yep, for us. It is, I guess. Thanks for them.
She's in. D.c. are that's how he's a lot of. Yeah. If you knew someone like that I'm sorry you would not stand. I'm probably. So, but I think that kind of personality like really attracted John to her because he liked a little wild side and yeah, because yeah, it's who he loves to live on. The I right, he probably liked that so they met at a Paul Newman, charity event and I'm not really sure since Carolyn had said that she always wanted
to meet him. Like I wonder if she's somehow like met someone threw her job and like arranged for them to me at the TV. Just seems to serendipitous wow incidents but they're both somewhat in relationships. So Carolyn was dating that Calvin Klein model, Michael, burgeon kind of a new relationship and John had been In a relationship with Daryl. Hannah, the Steel Magnolias
actress. I bet that didn't stop either of them didn't John was instantly attracted to Carolyn's mesmerizing charm and how independently minded she was and not afraid to voice opinions without seeming nervous around him. Hmm. This Vanity Fair article by Edward. Klein says, John once told a friend I'm attracted to strong-willed women like my mother very before you doing,
okay. Alan was not just a strong-willed woman, she could be demanding domineering, and according to even her best friends, downright bitchy, some people felt that John overlooked her faults because he was blinded by her glamorous Jackie O style, and her own edgy. Modern Way, Carolyn was as chicest Jackie, she dressed with the simple Elegance. That John adored like The Ether will Jackie Carolyn, affected an air of mystery and unavailability which drove the media crazy and sustained the
public frenzy. That John found, exciting and fun. And like, Jackie Carolyn was very controlling which made me feel protected and cared for downright bitchy. But after meeting at that charity event, John then went to the Calvin, Klein store, and got styled by her and he purchased three suits. Wow. And then, he even asked her on a date, he got tickets to a play, but Carolyn actually got stuck at work and never called never showed up. She stood. I'm up.
Oh my God. Hot really attracted even more because he's used to women throwing themselves at him. And then suddenly this woman is acting. Like she doesn't really care at all that, but she actually did care. I feel like that should be a red flag button, whatever. Yeah. Like, apparently Carolyn would tell her friends. Like, oh, I don't care about him. And then she would stay home and like, sit by the phone, and wait
for it, right? Of course, and then so, Carole, radziwill, Anthony's wife, Was that one time they were all at their summer house? I don't forget where it was, maybe in the Caper somewhere and she saw Carolyn like sneak out of John's room one night. But apparently that was very short lived, because then they both went back to their perspective relationship. Strong captivating, Daryl Hannah for the next two years and two years. Mmm, and Carolyn kept dating her boyfriend.
Michael Michael bergeon, I'm virgin, I like that name. So they stayed in touch though, like they were kind of in similar orbits, I think jono's kept tabs on Carolyn to see what she was up to keep her on the back burner. Yep. Keep kept keep her as an option. So that it's 1994. And sadly Jackie was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma and she had a very short battle with
that. And she had died in May, which Really affected John and that put a huge strain on his relationship with his girlfriend, Daryl Hannah because and I feel bad for Daryl because her dog had just died and then her other dog was dying. And she was so distracted. By that, there's John was really mad that he couldn't, she wasn't
really there for him. When his mom was dying, which I totally get like, that's even, yeah, yeah, I just feel bad cause like, might like my dog had just tied, that is very emotional and I feel like she just like, couldn't control her emotions. Yeah. Why are we both are dogs dying at the same time?
I know. So I guess like one of the Jackie's last weekend's she made John, like, come to a funeral for the dog and like, I really pissed him off, I guess, but he didn't even really know that Jackie was going to die. But that just put a huge strain relationship and it made him realize like how he wants to settle down and be with someone serious. Yeah, I don't know. Like Carolyn reminds him of his mom there, but it seems like that was a turning point in his romantic life.
Well, I think, when really serious huge things like that happen, you do kind of evaluate your whole life and it puts things into perspective. Yeah, exactly since. So then he broke it off with Darryl and started chasing after Carolyn. Wow, he heard that she liked to party a lot. And he asked a mutual friend to investigate and the friend, went back to him and says, she does,
a lot of coke. She stays out, Late at night, she gets with a lot of different guys and he told John to be careful, but John ignored the advice I'm not told Karen what the friend said. Well, how did this friend do that? I don't know. I think John's got eyes and ears everywhere. Did somebody actually physically go to these parties and observe how much influence? Sometimes I want to be a spy I know. Let's try to be a private
investigator. Yeah I know we can be dangerous but yeah it's maybe spy think is dangerous but being a private investigator. I don't know. I think I'll be a step ahead. It's a lot of waiting and ya know our grand prix are change. My parents hired a private investigator one time. Both of our grandparents. Yeah, our mutual grandparents, why? Because our aunt was getting cheated on. Oh, I didn't know they did that. You didn't know not say that on the show. It's fine.
I thought my mom does acted as a private investigator. No, they hired. Wow maybe I shouldn't say. So why do they need an additional? Additional coverage by my mom. I know it's bad to be like, nosy and stalking someone, but I, I think it's foreign today. Someone's having an affair? Yeah, I have the urge to do something like that, right now, is there such a no? There isn't a security, but I just want something like that to happen and then I can investigate.
Yeah. But I would want to do it for some Like a party that I'm not as emotionally invested in the, don't hate to be investigating for a friend in and have to break the news to her. That you're getting cheated on. Yeah. It would be fun to be involved in a stranger situation. Yeah, I think I just haven't had anything that suspicious happened. In within my Social Circle model. Yeah, that's a good thing. That's very funny. I think I'm Carolyn was like shouldn't hang out with a friend
anymore. She was very offended and anyway, Sean considered her, the first girlfriend who he could see beyond the veneer who could see beyond the veneer of his Fame and celebrity and then and that's November John introduced Carolyn to his sister Caroline and her husband, Ed and Carol rats as well. Says that this interaction was awkward and that Carolyn gave John a warm hug and then just said to Carolyn nice to meet you and that Carolyn supposed Caroline supposedly didn't like that.
Carolyn was a big partier in very opinionated like she kind of already got off on the wrong foot with the family. I see that things were getting pretty serious very soon that spring Carolyn moved into John's Tribeca Apartment, his tribe, lepke and toes. And then that summer for the Fourth of July, they went to Martha's Vineyard and John invited Carolyn to go fishing. And she was not a nature girl. She didn't like fishing, she really didn't want to go.
Hmm, But she did. And then on the boat John got down on one knee and said fishing, is so much better with a partner and pulled out a replica of his mother's engagement ring. Wow. And Carolyn didn't say yes right away. But 04 the ring anyway, I told friends that they'd eventually get Married and apparently she just wasn't in a hurry. She was only 29 years old and Carole radziwill.
Theorized that Carolyn would have preferred to be secretly engaged forever without having to actually get married. And she thought that the fantasy would be better than the reality of interesting surprise. And she was so crazy about him. I know, I guess you really worried about the expectations that would be placed on her when she got with him. Hmm and she really worried that he Are her as a replica of his own mom and she would say to him, I'll never be your mother,
which is a lot. I mean, she didn't want to have to be Jackie O to the public. Yeah, I can picture this so well. Just on the ocean is like, an American flag Rippling off the boat. Probably was really American. Yeah. And I guess he saw marriage as a gateway to living, a more normal life and thinking that the Press would lose interest in him. I could see why. You think that? Yeah, didn't really happen that way at all.
And then three weeks later, Carolyn officially accepted the proposal and they only told a few close friends, but did the word get out? Yes. Event on Labor Day. The New York Post, ran a story with a close-up shot of her ring. Just days before. John was going to announce the launch of his new magazine. George. Oh, which this magazine was a long time coming for him.
It was this idea. Cool. Bridging not a gossip news stories but public interest some new stories with politics and style and fashion just putting that all together. It's reminds me of Nate on Gossip Girl. When he randomly launched today space for me, literally The Spectator. Yeah. Like it's gossip but more serious. Yeah, I know that will literally yeah, because Nate was supposed to be from a family like that. Of the magazine which I don't feel like I could help the Maxi.
I know, right? I don't know. So they wanted to sink the story. So John had his assistant Rosemarie, deny the engagement and say that it was just a promise ring classic, what is it? These promise wrath. But that's why I think that maybe celebrities really are engaged, but they say there, it's a promise rings to throw the public on, maybe because who actually does mmm this day and age. I thought all press is good. Press I don't me too. I thought that would just draw
more attention. So yeah, the assistant said once again, John Kennedy seems to be bearing the brunt of a slow news day. The story circulating regarding an engagement are untrue. He's not engaged while it is, not our habit to comment on John's personal life. The story seems to have taken a life of its own, and we feel it necessary to respond, which I think draws more Intrigue to it, like, you know, That's really mysterious that you have to come
out and deny this story. Yeah, and I guess Carolyn was not happy about it but she understood. Yeah, I wouldn't be either. But then it makes you wonder like, oh, I things Rocky like what's going on. Yeah. So what did you expect? If you're wearing the ring? I know. Hmm, I just get stuck on the last episodes we did. But did I mean, Jon, and Katie were engaging. I know that that does make me wonder. Who else had a problem is occurring only think. Oh, what was it? Robin FKA twigs?
Yeah, they were really engaged. They were really engaged. But yeah, I think before the news came out, they did say it was a promise ring. Oh my God. They must have been just engaged.
But so there's evidence that their relationship was pretty Rocky, also early on. So in February of 1996, in Washington Square Park, there was an Infamous event where they spotted publicly fighting, so they had been walking their dog Friday and holding hands and then Carolyn stopped in her tracks and started yelling at John. And then he started yelling at her with his finger, in his, in her face, and she grabbed the back of his neck.
And then he grabbed her wrist and they were wrestling in front of people. So New York and then she tried to, he tried to rip her engagement ring from her finger. Oh my God. And then she tried to leave with the dog and John shouted, you've got my ring, you're not getting my dog. And then, after Carolyn was seen, consoling him on the curb and then they left holding. Hands. But there's even footage of this happening. And well, I got us a lot of some
point. Hmm. And apparently John had been casually invited to be the best man in a wedding of a guy that he barely knew. And they had been seated next to a New York Times editor at that wedding. And so Carolyn, you know, presumed that the only reason he was even invited to the wedding in the first place was so that the bride could get a story written about her in the New York Times. Carolyn always thought that people were just using John for
his Fame and his notoriety. And she felt like people were always taking advantage of him and she got mad that he didn't storm out of the wedding to make a big stink about it. Hmm. She always thought that he wasn't sticking up for himself. I don't know why they're get. So riled up about that though. I know that is interesting. The he went through with it. I know my best man for someone. He hardly knew. I know.
I don't think that he suspected that it was a, the person had ulterior motives till he. I was actually at the wedding. Wow. But then he was nice about it and stayed, and she got mad that he didn't storm out, but I mean, that would be way worse. Yeah, he is aware that he has to keep up his reputation. You can't look ungrateful or whatever for his privilege and celebrity, so, yeah, but that really bothered her. But during this time, they're
also planning their wedding. And secret, which is planned for September and Carolyn flies to Paris and she's boat. Graphed out at a restaurant with her wedding dress designer and the Press thinks that she's having an affair with the designer, which makes her thrilled because people are not even suspecting anything makes her Thrills.
So then their wedding is in September, on the Cumberland Island which is a small island off the coast of Georgia and they have their wedding of the First African Baptist Church, which is a very small wedding or small Church. There's only 11 wooden pews. There's no air-conditioning or electricity. Wow. And Steve, are you? Yeah, it's very secret and
intimate. There's only 40 guests wedding party gets dressed up in a small house near the chapel and John, even invites elderly made to be at the wedding, which is crazy because there's like barely anybody out this because nice and apparently John is late to the wedding because he can't find a shirt. So it ends up getting really dark and the guests had to use flashlights and candles to light the room. That's cool.
It was lightly, showering outside, and apparently Carolyn no Caroline Jones here made snide comments about the fact that Carolyn was late to her own wedding, which I thought John was, the reason they were late, but she didn't like that. And she also didn't like that Carolyn wore heels on the beach. And apparently, this led to them not getting along later on. Why does that matter? I don't know. Heels on the beach. I think I think Caroline just Probably got a bad vibe from Carolyn.
Yeah. Especially since she's seemingly was temperamental. Yeah. Mmm. Maybe she felt like she was ruining the heels or something and I thought that was grati. I don't know. Maybe it was like their family money. Wait, I was probably her family's, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure if that's so then. John's cousin Anthony. The best man. He gave a speech. Instead we all know why John would marry Carolyn. She is smart, beautiful, and Charming.
So what does she see in John? A person who over the years has taken pleasure in teasing me like nasty tricks in general. Torturing me for some of the things that I guess might have attracted. Carolyn to John are his caring, his charm and his very big heart of gold. It might sound corny but it is true. Love and has brought all of us who love John a great deal of Happiness, knowing that he will have someone a specialist Carolyn by his side for the rest of his life.
I don't think we've ever had any wedding speeches on this podcast. Yeah that might be the first think we've had access. Wow I don't know how people even know what he said because there was no Paparazzi or reporters at this wedding but then afterwards they released a statement, the Associated Press about it. So word got out and they went to Turkey for their honeymoon and they had hoped that when they got back. John celebrity would die down.
Because now he's a married man. And no one's going to care about him. And yeah. But the complete opposite happened. The paparazzi was now obsessed with them. And every single day there was 80 to 20 photographers camped outside, their apartment, just waiting to snap a picture of them and apparently a photo of them could sell for like twenty thousand dollars just for laughs.
Oh my God, I got so bad that John and Carolyn had a press conference where he asked Paparazzi to leave them alone and he said this is a big change for anyone for a private citizen even more. So I just ask for any privacy or room you could give her as she makes that adjustment, it would
be greatly appreciated. Well that only fed into the friends even more because Carolyn suddenly was very mysterious to the people and everybody wanted to know more about her and even Ralph Lauren said, everytime you design something, or create something think of Carolyn Bessette. Actually just bought this New York Magazine, that was like, 100 years of it girls. And I think she was one of them. Yeah, now the people were obsessed with them.
Their first formal outing was at the Whitney Museum Gala and you were crowned by the New York Post as New York's king queen, wow. And once again, she was compared to Jackie Kennedy, but Carolyn instantly was having a really tough time with this new fame. It's kind of weird because it seemed like she wanted to be famous. She said, I want to be famous I don't know. I don't think she really realizes like the reality of it, and I think like, she didn't have a personality that was
actually good for fame. Hmm. Because she was really paranoid about people, digging up things from her past and looking to see to her, you know, painting her in a bad light, like, yeah, even it had come out that she had illegally subletted. Her old apartment years before, and that just was a really paranoid about what other stuff they're gonna dig up about her. So Random Mmm. Yeah. I guess it's that classic saying
be careful what you wish for. Really she grew more reclusive and she wasn't really willing to leave the apartment but that made people even more obsessed with her because they really wanted to know. Like, yeah, she was, she was just so mysterious. Wow, it girl. Mmm, really, and John and her fought a lot and they had a lot of different things that they thought about the first was Carolyn resented. A lot of John's. And because like I said, she thought that they were taking
advantage of him. They all had hidden agendas and they probably did and she tried to limit his contact with a lot of different people. One of the biggest ones was John's business partner, Michael hmm. He found Carolyn to be very controlling and paranoid especially because of her cocaine usage and he didn't like how much time she spent at the office for the George magazine. And apparently, she and Asserted herself into a lot of different
things. Hmm. And one of her friends told Edward Cline, the author of The Kennedy curse. She thought Michael wasn't on the up-and-up and that he had a vested interest in her husband. She poisoned John's relationship with, Michael. I heard her tell John, I don't believe Michael is your real
friend. The only reason he's close to you is because you're John F, Kennedy jr. Hmm. And this tension between Michael and Carolyn got so bad that it ended Leading to a huge Fallout between Michael and JFK jr. Which signaled, a lot of troubles at the Magazine's because then I think Michael really was doing the majority of the work. Oh my own without decide. The magazine, just really started to crumble. Do you think she was right? Or was she just paranoid and starting fights?
I can't, I don't, I mean maybe. But I think I I mean, a lot of people did tell the Press - stories about Carolyn. So obviously, I'm sure there were a lot of people who John couldn't trust. Yeah. And I don't think that anybody would could really. If you're that famous, like, you always probably have to be wary of a lot of different people. Hmm. But was there anybody? He could trust.
Also, he also had his assistant Rosemarie who was very, very loyal to him and Carolyn tried to Her fired, what really jealous of Rose Marie and she hated how much he trusted her. And because he, she felt like rose was more loyal to John and to Carolyn like, Carolyn would tell Rosemarie stuff and say, don't tell, John don't tell him and then she would. She was she was his this. Yeah.
Not yours. I get probably everybody was trying to take advantage of him but it is kind of shitty to act like Or I'm the only person you can trust exactly. Yeah, but then I will say Rosemarie did later, end up, writing a book about them called fairytale interrupted, so does make you wonder. Could you really be trusted? Can you trust anybody in this godforsaken world?
Everyone who wrote a book about them was like I'm doing it to keep their legacy alive, their story, because they're not here to do so. But they do tell us some very silly things. Make me wonder like, how much did you get paid for those? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. But I know they were probably more Regular People. Hmm. Especially an assistant.
Yeah, they needed a book. So Rosemary said, in her book, John's John's insensitivity with the biggest Catalyst of their arguments can only would decline invitations from friends because John said he was coming home for dinner. So she would wait and wait and wait while he worked late and went to the gym and then wall, listen to the apartment way.
Past dinner time, another classic scenario was when he would spring important information on her at the last minute, such as, oh, by the way, the Whitney benefit is in two days or I'm bringing a friend home for dinner, right? Yeah. It wasn't mean-spirited.
Or on his part he was simply as disorganized and clueless as a kid, the bugs mean to Yep. And I'm apparently he was very absent because of his magazine especially since it was struggling a lot and Carolyn would do anything, she could to get his attention because of this and he would call her during the day and she'd refused to answer and she would go out and go somewhere and not tell him where she was going mmm-hmm. I'm cat and mouse. Yeah. They also have very different interests.
He was very active and adventurous. And, you know, he loved to go mountain climbing and he loved planes. He was getting his pilot's license in just loved like all those manly stuff. Yeah. You know, missing sailing but she was becoming more and more recluse, especially with the fame, and he had told her friend. I can't just come home and talk about the dog and the cat all evening and then sometimes he would come home and she would have all of her model fashion friends.
Has over, and they would just be doing cocaine and stuff and living room really pissed him off. So, they really clashed about their plans. Oh, man, that's a classic thing to fight about though. It's pretty normal, they also really class about having kids, he was really ready to be a father, and he apparently already nicknamed or named their hypothetical future son, Flynn,
that's cute. You know, this is giving me blind friends, but she didn't want to have Kids guys, she was very afraid of the media attention that kids would bring onto them further. And she didn't want to have to worry about taking care of kids, that would also be in the public eye. Hmm. And they also fought about her spending habits. Apparently she was very warm and generous with her money. She would buy very expensive gifts for the George staff like
very expensive gifts. She would leave very large tips that every restaurant they went to and she was very nice to at this time. John's cousin Anthony, he was battling cancer and she was a really solid source of support for both Anthony and his wife, Carol who had written a book about them and she would, wow, attend all his doctor visits with them and she was very close with them, but she's very generous though and John didn't like how much she was spending.
Hmm, sounds nice. But I think it was like she was overdoing it. Yeah, I think it was a little Carol has at times been in 1997, Princess Diana's death really exasperated, Carolyn's fears of the paparazzi even more. And apparently she would say that she was really worried. The same thing would happen to her. The happened to Diana, which is just kind of ironic because literally it's like, she's the American princess. Yeah. And being ostracized, Austin ostracized by the press all the time.
Hmm. And John. On worried about Carolyn a lot, but he also was very frustrated frustrated with her inability to adjust and cope with the situation and because he grew up with this lifestyle. Yeah. You didn't really understand how difficult it could be for someone who didn't. Yeah. Wasn't used to it. Sounds similar to Charles and Diana in that way. Yeah, he was like, just get over it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The sooner you accept it the better?
Yeah, she couldn't accept it. And she became very fixated to on. Physical appearance and would, you know, like was very obsessed with dying her hair and dieting. And she would self-medicate with cocaine all the time which Adam
paranoia. And then in 2004 Carolyn's ex-boyfriend Michael, burgeon remember the Calvin Klein model, he revealed that he and Carolyn had actually maintained a close friendship after their breakup and would talk on the phone often and that she felt she Could always rely on him to be there while John was absent. And that in 1997, they started
seeing each other again. And she actually went to LA and they met up and slept wake up Virgin, I didn't expect that Gap. And then around Thanksgiving, they met up at a Connecticut Motel. They have sex again and then when John was away on a trip to Iceland Carolyn's 11 days in LA with him and then once John even showed up at their apartment in Tribeca and Michael was in bed with her. What sent Michael down?
Like to get away like he John, didn't catch them or anything, but they were Rendezvous, going it up. Oh my God. And Michael apparently said that the reason he's telling people, the snow is because a lot of bad things have been said about Carolyn and so he wants people to know what a lovely person. And she was and I guess he had to, you know, tell people how close they were because of that. But I don't think this makes her look any better.
No, I don't know if that helps. She was having an affair with me, but she was a great person. I knew her better than anybody. She was a lovely woman and a great lover. You could have kept that to himself. Yeah. I mean, But he could have just said, like, we maintain a friendship. Yeah, she's a great person. Yeah. And apparently, John's friends verified reports after the book came out, because John had confessed to them, his fears, that they were having an affair. Oh, wow.
So was John ever having an affair. So, Carolyn told Michael that she thought that apparently in 1998, Carolyn broke down and told Michael that she was in love with Michael and that she confessed to him that she thought that John was having an affair in Michael asked her, why she thought that? And she said, I don't know, I just do hmm there's no evidence that he had an affair but apparently there were rumors that maybe he was seeing his ex Daryl. Hannah again, what?
But no one really know. They're both possibly seen their exes this foursome, but Jon Jon's friends? He's apparently said that he confessed to them that he wished he could cheat on her, but he couldn't humiliate her. Like his father, did to his mother. That's nice. That's nice. But I don't know if I buy that can also wait.
So he wanted to G gonna say, but we do think on this podcast, if one person is cheating, if one person she'd send the other person continues, I just feel like he's probably better at hiding. His cheating. Yeah, because he knows how to play the media. Yeah. Here's more people willing to be on his side because he has more influence. I'd be pretty amazed if he never did.
Mmm. Apparently he also said that Carolyn viewed marriage like men do and that she was cynical because of the way that her father had left her mother. But John felt very desperate with how reclusive and paranoid. She was staff members at George said that he was very grouchy and it was clear that there were issues at home And he had a very close friend named Sasha from I think all the way back in high school and it was kind of almost like a Mindy and BJ situation.
He actually even insisted on being The Godfather to both of Sasha's children. Interesting, but from what I can tell it was, mostly platonic. But he would confide in Sasha about their relationship issues. Interesting. Which I don't know, like that, Sasha, what's what's this Sasha? And He begged Sasha to get Carolyn out of the apartment for a glass of wine and apparently she did in the first question that Carolyn asked Sasha over wine was, how do you keep
passion in the relationship? When you've been with someone, for a long time? And Sasha said, well, that's not something that you need to worry about since you haven't been together that long? Damn, no. And apparently, Carolyn would tell friends that John wasn't her type and that she wasn't sexually attracted to him. I thought he was super good looking. I know it seems like again, careful what you wish for like, yeah, she was chasing him for all these years but then she
couldn't handle the reality. Oh my God. Being with him and it made her resent him and lose attraction for him. Wow, he was actually voted the sexiest man alive in 1988. So the fact that she said that she didn't even find him sexy. Wow, that's insane. Know? What see you guys, it can happen to anybody. No, yes. Oh my God, things are really not great.
So then in 1999, he persuaded Carolyn to see a psychiatrist psychiatrist and he made sure that she started taking antidepressant medications and to amuse her.
He flew her to a romantic Hideaway for a romantic vacation to hopefully try to mend things but that March Each they hit a Breaking Point, they started attending couples counseling together and in one session in that July that July Carolyn stormed out of the session after her drug, use came up and she started sleeping in the spare room. And then he started staying at the Stanhope hotel in Manhattan. Oh no. So things, it just seems like our kind of out of breaking point now.
And on July think 13th, Carolyn's sister Lauren, arranges for them to all have drinks at the hotel to try to mend things between them. Neither of them are really in the mood to talk and they just kind of sit there in silence in the lobby of the hotel and Lauren asked them to hold hands, but they refused. But then she insisted and they hold hands reluctantly. I don't know how people know this. That's sweet of Lauren, you know, how do they know? Yeah, I think Lauren was really
stressed. About everything going on with her sister and she wanted to help them work on their marriage. Sweet. And so, that weekend, John's cousin, Rory was getting married in Hyannis, and Carolyn really didn't want to go to the wedding. She didn't want to be there with John and she also didn't really like the Kennedy family and she really felt like an outsider among them.
Hmm. But Lauren insisted that, she should go to support John, especially since his cousin Anthony was unfortunately dying of cancer. And because Is everything going on with his magazine? And he was under a lot of stress and more. Instead, I'll go with you, I'll ride in the plane with you and that was the only thing that convinced Carolyn to go to the
wedding. And so the plan was that they were going to fly to Martha's Vineyard and drop Lauren off in Martha's Vineyard to be with her friends for the weekend and then they would go to Hyannis for the wedding, okay? So that evening, actually, John even call up up a friend while in the Stanhope hotel and confessed, all the problems going on in his marriage. Wow. He was lying on his bed and said, it's falling apart.
Everything is falling apart. He said, I want to have kids but whenever I raise this subject with Carolyn she turns away and refuses to have sex with me, he also said it's not just about sex, it's impossible to talk to Carolyn about anything. We've become like total strangers, my God and then the next day on July, 16, they were supposed to fly out of New Jersey during the day but Lauren got delayed with work. And then there was a lot of traffic so they didn't fly out
of New Jersey until 8:30, 3 p.m. and at this time weather conditions were pretty hazy and John had just purchased this flight only three months before and light or plants. Are This Plane okay, little prop plane be okay. He had been interested in Plants his whole life by the way. Like even from as young as a toddler flying on Air Force, One with his dad. Well, even the last time he ever even saw his dad was when he was taking off on the plane. And he was waving to his dad from the term acts.
So plans were a lifelong Obsession for John and but he wasn't that experienced of a fire. He had only three hundred and ten hours of flight experience, but because he had the sense of fearlessness about him, he With a lot more Reckless because he's certified he was certified. Yeah, well, so then at 8:40, the plane disappeared from radar screens but John never issued, any emergency warnings during
the flight or anything. And then at 2:15 a.m. the Kennedy family reported to the Coast Guard that the plane had not arrived and the Coast Guard started a search and rescue effort at 4 a.m. oh my God. And then over the next A couple of days, the tent that was erected for the wedding of Rory, Kennedy became a site for friends and family to gather and pray for the safe return of John Lord, John Carolyn and her sister Lauren, my God. That's really, I mean, it's a
tragedy for everyone. That's really sad for Rory. I know that would happen to the wedding. No, very sad. I know, I think the nightmare writing a few months later. I know it's awful. I don't think of all the planning that goes into. Yeah, it's supposed to be the happiest day of your life and
caught I know. And then unfortunately, on July 19th debris, from the plane was found, including luggage and personal items, floating in the Atlantic Ocean, seven and a half mile to ought to Martha's Vineyard. And then on July 21st, the wreckage of the plane including the engine is located on the ocean floor at a depth of 120 feet. And then the bodies of John Carolyn and born were all recovered from the crash site. That's so tragic. Oh, leave that the crash.
So there was a whole investigation that lasted until March 2000 but it sounds like I'm trying. It's believed that the crash happened around 9:40 after John became disoriented while flying over the ocean and was unable to maintain control of the plane. Oh, my God, that's so scary. And it's speculated that it took him about only three minutes from realizing, there was a problem until the plane had crashed and its really sad in her book.
Carole radziwill says that she always thinks about that. Whenever anything takes three minutes, she's like, wow segment on the news or something. It's yeah, whatever. You can think of it takes three minutes. Like that's how much life can change in that short amount of time. She like crashes often occur in private jets or planes, right? Dumplings. I know. Well, it's you want to go on one? I mean it makes me think about like Kobe Bryant like yeah a lot of celebrities fly.
All these like small planes all the time. Yeah. They're so used to that ease of travel that sometimes they might be putting themselves into dangerous, dangerous situations. Yeah, flying and hazy conditions just for the convenience of it. I don't think John he wasn't an experienced enough pilot in order to To like, know what to do in a situation like that. So sad. Uh-huh. And some people speculate that the stress and state of their marriage, may have also been a
contributing factor. Yeah. Maybe Like he wasn't totally on it little distracted. Yeah. You'd also just a few months before had broken his foot and he had to go on but I don't know if he actually his foot might have been a little bit recovered by the time the flight like he was cleared to fly that could have also been a factor as well. Also he had taken a shortcut or try to take a shortcut so rather than flying around the coast of Rhode Island he went over much larger open bar D of water.
So it was a lot darker outside and also they have scared. It was supposed to fly out during the day. This is so sad. Like, if all these things and have happened they might yeah today. It's crazy because I don't know. It seems like they probably would have gotten divorced and I had to guess within it never happened. Do you know like other time I'm guessing the public perception was that? They had like a great relationship, I think so.
Yeah. I mean even that book that Rose Marie Rose called the fairy tale interrupted. Like I feel like people really saw this as like a prince and princess of me. Yes story. But I do think that fight in Washington Square Park. Like was the first sign that there was trouble in their relationship tragic, but there was, I think a lawsuit after the fact. I think her family did Sue, the Kennedy family. So that was one thing that made me wonder like is that why there's such negative stories
about Carolyn out there? Like did they want to paint Carolyn evil in for some reason? Why did they sue like on the basis of what? I don't know? Do not like, what could the family have to do with? I mean, what can they do? You know? Yeah, I think they sued the estate for. It's not like anyone else was involved. I don't know, like, even like the Ryan family sued, the estate
of the pilot. This, the plane that killed Cody. It's tough situation because like, you want to find somebody responsible in a situation like that. But yeah, times like it is just An accident. And yeah, I mean, it's not The Grieving families will I know when both families lost somebody. Yeah. Oh, I'm glad I learned the whole story. I never really heard the whole thing. Wow, some of these episodes and quite sadly. But you know what? We're keeping them alive and
it's good. Remember tragic to think that their lives ended so abruptly, like in the middle of all this drama. Like, I mean, so scared animals, like what their lives could have been. Like they both could have gotten divorced gone separated, like they could have lived very independent lives. Yeah. And that's somebody else. And it also is just sad that like she was. So paranoid that people were gonna like sell all these stories about her to the place and then they kind of did I
know. Like you can see why she was paranoid. Yeah. And then her Of being like Diana. That's crazy. Yeah, she did die young too. Oh, wait. Let me see. How old she was? She was just 33 years old and I feel really bad for their parents to the facade parents. Yeah, they lost two daughters. That's so tragic. Oh my God. That's a nightmare. I know why is life. So, cruel Carolyn, Caroline Kennedy, she lost her mom, her dad and then her brother Mother. Wow. Poor Carol.
I know and apparently, Caroline, and John like weren't even on speaking terms at this point, I think, because of all the tension with Carolyn, wow, oh my God. Why? Why is life so hard? It's so cruel. But I can see why people want to believe that he's still alive. It's just such a tragic death. Yeah, it's so tragic. Just a beautiful man 2. Yeah. Well Mount, you did an amazing job. Because listening to his real story, you know, just flowed perfectly.
Oh I'm happy to hear that because guys, I've had a storm bad cop. So I feel like my breathing hasn't been great this episode. So, no has asthma. Hmm, I feel bad for me. I've been, it does have to do with allergies. I feel like everyone's been talking about how bad it's been like lately. Well, because it barely it didn't even snow here in New York, so I feel like we've had a longer spring. Yeah, which is elongated that Allergy season.
So, all that mucus is just been building on my own songs. They cannot take it. I hope it clears up some no, you did great. Wow. So next week, hopefully also, I'll be breathing a little bit better next week. There's also some Scandal and salaciousness, okay? Week's episode, we're going a little internationally here. We're going to Bollywood honest. Oh, okay. And it's a relationship. That is very much. Did they did they not over at all tree? All right.
If anyone has a guess, let us know. And we love you all. Thank you so much for supporting the podcast and will get back together next week.