113. When Cleopatra Met Mark Antony

Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight? Are you sorry? Hi guys. Welcome to Significant Lovers. We're your hosts. My name is Mel and I'm Kel. And I'm Caitlin, and in case you're wondering, this is not a true crime podcast you're listening to, but a true love podcast.

See what I did there? And each week we cover a new historical or pop cultural couple and figure out why they worked out or why they didn't and what happened and what that means for us regular folk and our relationship problems. Because at the end of the day, it's just like all the tabloids say celebrities. They are just like US. Oh, I love that. Wow, Kate, did you write that? That was really good. Oh my.

Gosh, I love that Kate. Yeah, I've been inspired because a lot of the other podcasts have like that I've been listening to have like a really scripted intro. So I had to think. Of something that was very well worded. Yeah. They're just like us. It's true, though. Yeah. Oh, and part of our intro is me saying that we're cousins. Yes, in case anybody's brand new, you just need to know that. Well, technically they are sisters and I'm their cousin. We're all related.

So you might hear us like talk about, oh, your mom, we're oh grandpa or something. That's why people that have been with us since the beginning. I know you're tired of hearing this, but we love you. Not the significant lovers. Nope, no, that would be wrong, although we've covered cousin relationship. Well, the person that we're talking about today had been married previously to two brothers at one point. Yes, we're not saying we like

that, it's just happened, but. Thankfully, that's not the case today. Cool. And why is that, Kate? Who are we talking about today? So last week I talked to, well, not last week, OK, Last time I talked about Cleopatra with Julius Caesar, and this time I'm covering her Cleopatra with Mark Antony. Heard of him? Yes. But actually, I don't know what he did to be honest. I know I. Know less about him than Caesar. I knew less about him than Caesar too, and less about them

as a couple. Also, 'cause I never read Anthony and Cleopatra by William Shakespeare. So I kind of also went into this with no idea about Evette. I need to see the Elizabeth Taylor movie. I said I was going to, but then I didn't. But I still want to. You gotta, I mean, I haven't seen that so. I think it's like 3 hours long or something. I still want to but just need to find a good night to do it. Yeah, at least if you're watching at home, you can take breaks if you need to.

Well, before we begin, I want to thank some new patrons we have over on Patreon. So thank you to Jenny, Natalia, Amber and Alva. Thank you. Thank. You. I also want to do an extra special shout out to some of our long time patrons because their continued support has been insurmountable and greatly appreciated. So I want to give a big thanks to Tessa, Sierra, Cara, Yonica, Carrie, Indra, Musna, Inez, Priyanka and Rebecca. Oh yeah? Where'd? You get this list. From from Patreon.

Oh, the people that have been subscribed the longest, yes. Yeah, thank you guys so much. I feel like you guys, you're like our friends to us. We love all your comments and thank you so much for how supportive you are of the podcast. It means so much. And yeah, we love feeling like we have this community with you guys and talking about love all the time together. Really means a lot. So, Kate, do we have our other favorite segment? At the beginning, we do.

We have trivia. So this is between Kelly and Mel, who usually are really good at trivia, so hopefully you guys can do good at this bout. Questions that I have. I was kind of inspired by Mel from the last couple of trivia questions you asked 'cause it was kind of not the normal type that we asked. So I kind of did something different this time around. Oh. This is just like whoever's closest, or you know, whoever gets it. Exactly so #1 including this

episode. How many people, not couples has this podcast covered? Not including the rapid fire episode that were born before the 20th century. Wait, couples or individuals? People. Individuals. OK. And do we have a time limit on how fast we can guess this? Just whatever your first initial guess is, I guess, and we'll just lock that in. I don't have like a time limit I suppose. I'm going to say. Including this episode, you. Said including this episode.

Including this episode. OK, rough guess. I probably could think about it more, but I am going to say it feels like it will be 14. OK, Mel, you're locking in that answer. Yes. OK, Kelly. I'm going to say 16. OK, so neither of you got it exactly, but Kelly was the closest. The answer was 20. Wow. Yeah, 20 people. Wonder who I missed? Well, I'll tell you all of them after I do question #2 because it'll be kind of a spoiler for

that. So which couple consists of an individual or 1/2 of it was born in the 19th century and the other was born in the 20th century? Oh, I am thinking potentially Wallace Simpson and King. Wait, what's his name? Senior couple I know. I think it was Edward, right? Edward yes, but he he went by, I think like a nickname too, by Edward. It wasn't them. If Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda Fitzgerald. Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.

Damn, yay. Oh God. So Zelda was born in 1900, so technically the 20th century, right on the cusp. So she wasn't included in the list from question number one. And F Scott was born in 1896.

So the people that were born before the 20th century, the 20 people were Einstein, his wife Maleva, F Scott Fitzgerald, King James, George Villier, Mary Shelley, Percy Shelley, Wallace Simpson, Edward the 8th, Edward the 8th who is married to Wallace Simpson, Annie Oakley, Frank Butler, Marie Antoinette, Louis the 16th, Jane Austen, Tom Lafoit, John Adams, Abigail Adams, Cleopatra, Caesar and Marc Anthony. Wow, wow. Yes. Cool, we should make a collage or something of all the

historic. People, It was kind of funny because prior to recording this episode, my dad was asking me about who we're covering and what trivia questions we were going to do and he wanted me to ask him one of them. And I asked him the which couple has one in the 19th and one is the 20th and he instantly got F Scott and Zelda somehow. I know, I don't know how he did it anyway. I actually just read Zelda's book Save Me the. Wall, which I talked about back in the episode.

And I, you know, it couldn't fit it all in. We can't do everything when we record it. But I wish I had read it back then, 'cause it was so obvious. It was like exactly their life and what happened. She just kind of changed the names. It was really interesting. Yeah, so Kelly now has gotten 2 questions right, and there's one question left. OK. OK, let's just see if I can get on the board. So this is really about who gets it the fastest. Who are the only two people this

podcast is covered. Again, not in the rapid fire episode that were born in the 21st century. Oh, Olivia Rodrigo and Joshua Bassett. No, Kelly got it. What? No, there was a delay. There was a delay. There was a delay. On the phone there was. No delay, I heard. Myself being like, done while you were, yeah. I heard Kelly being done way before you. OK, she got it, but I. Do it back. But it sounded like Kelly got it. I think I started saying it at

the same. Time. You hadn't even said Joshua Bassett yet by the time I was, like, done. I thought saying Olivia Rodrigo was enough. I thought it was enough. No, I. Said two people. OK, OK, OK. So Kelly got 3 for three. Damn. Good job, Kelly. Thank you, Kate. Good game. Thanks, Mel. Good job. I'm doing that little like baseball thing from like the 1920s where they were like shake over their shoulders. Imagined you were doing. Thanks guys. That's fun. All right.

Kate, what 3 words would you use to describe this couple? OK, so technically I use 4, but it's, you know, seeming like they're so well suited. Passionate and doomed. Doomed. I know, I know, I know. Spoiler alert. But also a -1 as the last one. Typical. Didn't we use doomed for another relationship? Probably I think we might have did. I want to go. I don't even know if it was you, but I we definitely did.

I want to listen to them all back and like write them down and see how many overlapping adjectives there are for these. Couples. Yeah, like which ones are the most similar? There's so much data like I wish I had. I know. Seriously, I wish. And then I could categorize it like, OK, if you guys want to listen to all the doomed couple episodes, listen to these ones. If you want to listen to all the fiery couples, listen to these. Yeah. Yeah. Devoted couples listen to these.

Maybe I can go back and listen to all of them and categorize them, but that would be a project. Yeah, 'cause we're on, what, 1/11/13? I don't know. Something like. That it's pretty high. I think this is I want to say like 113. Yeah, OK. Well. I guess the amount of couples doesn't overlap with the number of episodes, but. True. I know. OK. Why are they doomed? Doomed though. Well, I will get into that in a second, but first I just wanted. To tell me now.

Just kidding, I got. To the end, I can spoil it. I'm just kidding. OK, well last time I was host again, I covered the relationship between Cleopatra and Caesar. And I highly recommend you listen to this episode or that episode before you listen to this one if you haven't already. But if you haven't yet, why haven't you? What are you doing? Go listen to it. Not only is it great or what?

Or you could just be like kind of confused the whole episode and then listen to it and have things cleared up for yourself. But again, not only is it a great episode, but it will provide you with a lot more context, like Kelly said, for some of the events and people I'm going to talk about in this episode that you might need to fully understand this story. Like, for instance, I'm not going to explain who Cleopatra is or what her past was in this episode because I did in the

last one. So if you want to know all about that and her, go back and listen to her episode with Caesar. Yeah, so she's not just being like, sexist and skipping Cleopatra's no Fido. No, I already. Covered it. It's already been done. Yeah, it's already been done. And I used some of the same sources that I did last time, including Cleopatra Life by Stacey Schiff. But also this time around I used Parallel Lives, The Life of Anthony by Plutarch, and he was

my main source. So I just want to put that there. Wow. He provided a lot of the information I needed to do my background on Mark Anthony. That's an old source, Kate, I know. He was alive around the same time Mark and Cleopatra were alive, so very, very old. What was his purpose for writing about them? Just curiosity? Just interest. History taking cause Plutarch especially, he did a biography of Caesar, a biography of Mark, a biography of Augustus, biography of all these other people.

So just basically a historian of the time, just taking down all the information that there need to be telling it to people. Blue talk. Heavens be, I was thinking that. Oh. My God, so many Hunger Games quotes and stuff. Yep. But anyway, OK, who was Mark? We haven't talked about him really. So Marcus Antonius Credicus or Mark as he's most commonly known as. He's also known as Anthony, but just for the sake of it, I call him Mark throughout this episode, just so you're aware.

How come he is known as Mark Antony and not Marcus Antonius? I. Don't know. I think just because maybe of cause of Shakespeare, they Englishified his name. So it's not Marcus Antonius, it's Mark Antony. I don't know. I see. Yeah. So I could call him Marcus this entire episode but I just want. Like Mark sexy beast Marcus, it's a Twilight character. If you know, you know. OK, now.

Anyway, so Mark was born January 14th, 83 BC, which makes him 17, younger than Caesar and 13 years older than Cleopatra. OK, Caesar's definitely the oldest person we've ever talked about. Definitely. I wonder if there'll be anyone that's even older maybe? Not. I don't think so. I. Mean there's a lot of those wicked ancient Egyptians and wicked ancient Rome humans

maybe, I don't know. But again, even if I were to cover someone like that, there's hardly any history on them, so it would be like a rapid fire probably. Yeah, so. I know, I know, Mellie, You've always kind of wanted to do Mary and Joseph. But that's still even. That would be after. Yeah, that would be later. Yeah. So they would. Be. Younger like. Neanderthals we could talk about. I mean, you could do Adam and Eve I suppose. There could be a lot to talk

about. But for the time being, and probably for quite a while, Caesar will be the eldest person we've ever talked about. But As for Mark? So Mark was the eldest of four children. He had two younger brothers and a sister who is also younger than him and his father was a politician and a pirate hunter named Marcus Antonius so same name. And his mother was the third cousin of Julius Caesar named Julia. So Caesar and Mark are semi distantly related. Interesting.

And apparently Mark and his family are said to be descended from Hercules. But it's kind of the same thing as Caesar. You said last night Caesar was said to be descended from. Oh, who did I say it was? Oh, now I'm mad at myself for not remembering. Let me go back. Venus. No. Yeah, it was Venus.

I think it was Venus. So Caesar was said to be descended from Venus. And now Marcus says to be descended from Hercules. But as far as I'm aware, Hercules and Venus didn't exist, but it's treated like it's a fact, so I just had to put that in there. Anyway. So in 74 BC, when Mark was 11, Mark's dad was elected as an army commander or prater and sent to the Mediterranean to clear the sea of piracy. And Mark's dad failed miserably in the job.

He was completely defeated by pirates and the Cretians, people of the island of Crete who helped them. And it was so bad that as a result of his failure, everyone in Mark's family, including him, Mark and we're given 1/3 name or cognomen of Cretius, which ironically meant conqueror of Crete. So it was a dig at Mark's dad and he and the rest of the family were never able to live

it down. So technically Mark, like last name Cretius, is just like a nickname that was given to Mark's dad to make fun of him and they had to live with that. And they couldn't get rid of it. No. So Game of Thrones. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it will get even more. Pirate stuff. And they were even especially not able to live the name down when Marks dad died two years later in 72 BC while fighting in Crete, still against like the pirates. So he was defeated. Dang, yeah.

And shortly after his father's death, Mark's mother married a politician named Cornelius Allentilus. However, in 63 BC, Cornelius was accused of being part of a coup to overthrow the current Roman consoles. And as a result, he was executed by one of those said consoles, a man named Cicero, who actually came up in the last episode, if you remember, as one of Cleopatra's biggest haters. And he will come up more in this episode.

Cicero. And apparently as a young kid, amongst all this, Mark was said to be brilliant and bright. But as he got older, he fell into the wrong crowd, a violent youth gang. And Mark began drinking excessively. He regularly frequented brothels and engaged in love affairs. He gambled so much that he actually amassed a debt of $5,000,000 in today's money and partook in dangerous, violent campaigns. I don't know exactly what that last bit necessarily means.

Like campaigns against what? Like or who? Other gangs? I don't know, but that's what Plutarch said. But just understand that Anthony Mark was very much a teenage delinquent. Wow. And because I know, and because of all the debt and danger he got himself into, Mark actually had to flee Rome to Greece. Why people were after him? Yeah, he had like creditors and no, yeah, he had creditors after him and he also had other gangs after him. So what a mess. He just.

Ran away and. He's like a teenager at this point. Yeah, he's a teenager. And he stays in Greece actually for a good amount of time because in 57 BC, at the age of 26, he's still in Greece. And Mark was invited to join the Roman army on an expedition to Syria. And at first, Mark declined the invitation, but eventually agreed when he was offered the

position of cavalry commander. And even though he had no prior military experience, Mark was a skilled commander and in his first expedition of Syria he almost single handedly defeated his enemies. What? I think maybe just all of his experience in the gangs helped him out with that. I don't know. But then after Syria, Mark then commanded a Calvary to Egypt.

Yeah. And I mentioned this in the last episode, again, lots of mentioned the last episode that there's a point in time when Cleopatras father, King Ptolemy, these 12th was banished by the people of Alexandria and that the Roman army helped restore him to the throne. Well, Mark was actually part of that Roman force that helped him, a huge part. Even The work Mark did during this expedition was pretty much the entire reason Ptolemy

regained his throne in the end. Mark was also the reason there is less bloodshed than there was. According to historians near the expedition's end, King Ptolemy had been so overcome with anger at the Egyptian people that he wanted to massacre a ton of them. But Anthony was the one who stepped in and stopped him, and for many reasons than just that. Mark was looked on and remembered very kindly by the Egyptian people.

He's also been described as very noble, honorable, compassionate, a good soldier, approachable, generous, humble, good at giving relationship advice, a real man of the people. It was said he would eat with his men, which was said to have made them all worship him. He's also been said to have a good sense of humor. All muscle and mirth is how he's described. He'd laugh at jokes Heather made at his own expense, and he would hatch practical jokes of his own. Oh, he sounds like a great guy.

I know he sounds. Like a real cat. He actually does even like throughout this whole story I was like, Oh my God, I love Mark. I don't know. But OK, you said that he helped like her father, regain power, so does that make him? How old is Cleopatra when this happened? Like a little girl? Yeah, so I'll even go into this. But so when Mark was helping out with this, he was like 26 to,

well, 27 to 28 years old. And that was actually the first time he ever saw Cleopatra, who at the time would have been about 1415 years old while he was in Egypt fighting for her dad. But they did not officially meet. He only saw her once, apparently from far away, and she didn't see him. And again, they didn't officially meet. And so it wouldn't be for many years later that they would go on to meet. But he did see her. But she was 15 and he was 28. OK.

That's good. Yeah. For our modern yeah, sensibility, yeah. He didn't like, see her and start pursuing her then or anything. Mark was also said to be Herculean. Lee handsome. Oh which he is a descendant of Hercules so apple doesn't fall far from the tree or something he had was what was described as an acculine. Or is it acculine? I would say acculine. Acculine.

Acculine. An acculine or boxer nose, A strong masculine physique, a powerful neck, bouncing curls and supposedly swaggering air to him. So really hot, essentially. Really hot. And he was well liked, so I guess he was the total package, I suppose. Then after his time in Egypt, in 53 BC, Mark returned to Rome and then in 52 BC he was elected as the official Roman treasurer, or creaster as they called it.

However, he did not stay in Rome for long as he shortly after joined Caesar in his conquest of Gaul or today's France, and apparently he was a great assistance to Caesar during this conquest. And then after Gaul in 50 BC, Mark returned again to Rome and was appointed the role of Augur, which essentially was a religious figure who interpreted the will of the gods to sanction political and military actions, which is basically like if you hired a psychic as like counsel

to the president, essentially. How do you how do you spell that? Augur, AUGUR. OK. How is he qualified for that? I don't know. I guess he just sounds like the ranks and I don't know but. He sounds like he's good with his hands. Yeah, in the military planning strategy, I'm sure. But like how does that make him good at interpreting the gods messages? I don't know. I think somehow you run for that role and then you get appointed it.

It was a really high position for some reason to be, you know, this auger. And it was just like the next step in his career. I don't know. I don't know what their perspective was, but maybe they're like, well, he's had so much success so. It would be like. Really, he's tapped into something. Yeah, there would be like a storm. And they would be like, Auger, what does this mean for us? And he'd be like, we're going to win in the next battle, so fight.

OK. So that was his job, but not for too long, because once again, Mark didn't hold the job for long, as the following year, with the help of Caesar, Mark was elected as a Roman Tribune, which was a powerful position whose role was to represent the people in the Senate and interview, intervene on their behalf and veto any legislation

that did not benefit them. Wow, it really makes me think like if you ever get accused of job popping, just be like, you know, Mark Antony had a new job like every year, so. And so did. Why can't? Yay. And James. Yeah, they're constantly job hopping and they were rich and powerful and people still love them to this day. So you know what? Just do it. If you want a new job, go get it.

Well, around this time, Anthony married one of his cousins named Antonia Ibrida Minor, and they had a daughter named Antonia. And that's pretty much all historians know about his love life at the time. Most of what was recorded about Mark was his military and political career. So I really don't have anything else to say about him and his wife or his marriage at that time. But he used to go to brothels, yes. I wonder if he still does. I think he did, at least at this

point of time. Now that he's married. OK, yeah, later they say he's like one of the most loyal man, but they don't say that until way later. So I think at this point he was still skeeving around and Speaking of his political and military career and not his love

life. As a tribune in the Senate, Mark allied himself fiercely with Caesar, which was quite unpopular actually at the time, because at this point the Roman Civil War was beginning or on the precipice of beginning, and many believe that Caesar should disband his army. And when Mark openly questioned their logic, asking why Caesar should disband his army and not Pompey, or both Caesar and Pompey, Mark was actually expelled from the Senate.

And then Mark fled to Caesar and Gaul and told him what happened. And after that, though not wholly because of it, Caesar took his troops and marched on the city of Rome and thus officially launched the Roman Civil War. And during this war, Mark was entrusted by Caesar with the command of his troops and the administration of Italy, because Caesar was a way fighting Pompey abroad. And again, Mark was regarded as a great military leader, but apparently he was regarded as a lazy politician.

He had no patience for it. And he grew unpopular partially also because at the same time he took to sleeping with a lot of Ben's wives, so not faithful to his cousin, which I guess isn't a bad thing 'cause it's his cousin. But. Oh my God, is it? His first cousin. I think it was his first, really. Oh God, take a drink by the way. Yeah, Oh yeah. Take a drink. I am drinking a cider right now. I'm drinking a white cloth surge. Did you take that?

Oh, you're at home right now? Yeah, I'm at home. That's all I have to drink. I'm having a Diet Coke. Nice, nice. Well, Mark was a key figure in helping Caesar win the civil war and become deep and become dictator. And as a result Caesar named then 35 year old Mark Master of the horse, which was a very high position in Roman society. The Master of horse was essentially the second in command to the dictator, similar

to a vice president. So when the dictator was absent, for whatever reason, the master of horse was considered the highest supreme authority, and that was Mark at the time. And so Game of Thrones. Yeah, so like the Hand of the King or whatever. Yeah. And. Coin Master of Ships.

So he was master of horse. And so when Caesar left in 48 BC to go to Egypt to quell the Egyptian civil war and then Romance Queen Cleopatra, Mark was left as the supreme authority in Rome. And like I said before, Mark was not a good politician. He did a very pissed poor job during the two years Caesar was away. You say piss poor. Yeah, piss poor. You said it's a like matter of fact. I know. Did a piss poor job. Well, that's me rephrasing how it's described by Plutarch,

essentially. Apparently he reverted back in his old ways. He drank excessively, spent money lavishly, and engaged in numerous affairs. He was known to be either drunk or hungover most of the time and everyone was dissatisfied or disgusted by him. Apparently he would show up to like Senate meetings and just like, throw up and fall asleep. Oh my. God. Like, wow, I know, not a great look for Mark. And Caesar, when he came back from Egypt, was also dissatisfied and disgusted by

him. He actually stripped Mark of his title and his job was given to somebody else. What do you think his problem was? Yeah. Like what inner demon was causing this destructive behavior? I don't. Even know what I think it's just like left to his own devices. It was crazy or something. He just can't be left to his own whims or something. I don't know. But thankfully, more structure. Yeah. But thankfully, because he was stripped of his title in 46 BC, this kind of shocked Mark out of

his scandalous ways. And this is kind of the last time he goes down this dark path. And he cleaned up his act almost immediately. He still was, kind of. Rock. Bottom. Yeah, he hit rock bottom and he was thankfully swimming back up to the surface, who's still kind of close to Caesar, but their friendship was a little rocky because of this, so he tried to get better relationship with Caesar. So yeah, he cleaned up his act.

And part of cleaning up his act was actually divorcing his wife and then marrying another woman in 47 or 46 by BC when Mark was either 36 or 37 and it. Doesn't seem right. I know but I know she's his cousin. I know. I don't know if also like his ex-wife was enabling his behavior or what. Which sucks. I know we've had couples like this in the past but. Oh what? Like he finally gets better when he like, leaves for somebody.

Else and his new wife was actually a woman named Folvia, and she had been the wife of one of Mark's late best friends who died during the Civil War. And many people, including Cicero, speculate that Mark and her may have had an affair while his friends. Still alive? That's crazy. That could be like its own store right now. Literally. And this So Mark getting with Cleopatra isn't the first time actually that Mark gets with the widow of one of his friends.

I'll talk more about that later. And apparently Folvia was not the type of woman to be a housewife or submissive to her husband. According to Plutarch, her desire was to govern those who governed or to command a commander in chief, and that she broke in and schooled Mark to accept the sway of women. So she kind of helped him clean up his act also and basically become a loyal husband.

Nice. Yeah, and apparently later, skipping ahead, I don't spoil too much, but Cleopatra thanked Folvia for making Mark such a good husband, essentially. Interesting. Yeah. Sister Wives I. Don't know how I feel about that. Well, going back to the current timeline that we're on, Folvia and Mark would go on to have two

children together. But the same year that Mark and Folvia married Cleopatra, then about 24 traveled to Rome for the first time at the Hippohusk of Caesar, which we talked about at length in the last episode. So again, go listen to that.

And she was there alongside her and Caesar's one year old child Caesarian. And this would have been the first time she and Mark officially met, like I said before, because they met before kind of in a way, but this would be the first time they really met met. But they're both in relationships. Yeah, she's with Caesar and he's with Volvia. Oh, it just seems like last time, like he was at the house or something, but they didn't talk. He just saw her, essentially. Yeah, Yeah.

So it wasn't love at first sight. No, no because she was also like 15, which maybe at that point in time would have been more chill, but even Mark himself didn't think it was love at first sight. And nothing happened back then and nothing happened also during this time when she was in Rome with Caesar as far as we know. But it seems like nothing happened and nothing would happen until after Caesar's death.

Now, I didn't mention this in the last episode, but Mark was actually kind of inadvertently part part of the reason why Caesar was assassinated. Kind of what it wasn't him doing it, but I'll explain. So in 44 BC, Mark was elected as one of the two consuls of Rome. This was the highest legal administrative office in the Roman government beneath Caesar,

who was once again dictator. And Mark was very faithful to Caesar. He seemingly worshipped him even despite any past bad blood they had between them. And so one day in February of 44 BC, during a festival, Mark fashioned a crown out of lower and placed it on Caesar's head. And Caesar declined the crown twice, But the damage was already done. By making crown and putting it on Caesar's head, it was kind of signifying that Caesar either should be or was already king of Rome.

And the people of Rome did not like that idea at all. Kings to them meant the destruction of liberty, as opposed to dictator, which was their name for a ruler and elected for. Democracy. Yeah, democracy, even though dictator has a weird connotation. Now, yeah, because Rome, he was a Republic and dictator was an elected republican, elected authority in a Republic anyway, so. It's kind of cute that Mark, like, I guess loved him so much.

He was like, I put this little crown on you, like stop it and he put it back on him. Yeah, I mean, it's really unknown why Mark did it. It could be because he's trying to like suck up to Caesar by saying he should be king, or he truly thought so and did it out of blind devotion by being like here you're king. I don't know. Some people also think Caesar had Mark do it to show that people to show the people that he wasn't king, or maybe gosh, the public's reaction to him being king.

But either way, like I said, the deed did not go over well. And a month later, on March 15th, Caesar was assassinated. Possibly related to that because he thought he was getting too powerful. Yeah, and could. Some people want him to be king, yeah. Exactly. And initially, he didn't stab him. No, he wasn't. No, he was just kind of a smoking gun. But he didn't do the stabbing. He wasn't a part of the coup against him. No, but he should have been a

little smarter, yeah. Again, he's not a good politician or. Political. Person When it comes to war, yes. Politics, no. So initially Mark fled Rome because he feared he would be next, but then he realized that that was not the case. So he returned back and was made the state's treasurer once again and in charge of Caesar's papers. And on March 19th, it was revealed that Caesar named his grandnephew Octavian Augustus,

his heir. And immediately Mark hated this quote UN quote boy, as he called him, because was. He not a little boy. No. Well, Augustus was 18, which was young to that I suppose. So some historians think that Mark hated Augustus because Mark, for whatever reason, thought that he was going to be adopted and named Air by Caesar. I don't know why. What, like Mark who was like in his 30s like. Married with kids. Yeah. And so when Augustus reached room, Mark initially started

challenging his inheritance. And so, because Mark didn't really have a claim, he threw his weight heavily behind Cleopatra and her son's claim to the throne, but to no avail. Cleopatra left for Egypt with her son shortly after, and two years would pass before they would see each other again. OK, you're going back to Egypt. Yeah, but she is. Yeah, and like I said, Mark did not like Augustus, and the

feeling was mutual. There was rumors at the time that Augustus was pronged to kill Mark, unsure if true, but most likely it was. Augustus was also convinced that Cicero, Mark's other nemesis, the one that killed Mark's stepfather, to give a series of public speeches that proclaimed Mark as an enemy of the state and a tyrant. And for that reason, many others Mark was driven out of Italy to Gaul, where he was eventually defeated in battle against

Augustus's force. And that's the end of the story. What do you mean that's the story? No, I'm just kidding. Anyway, so that's not it. Mark didn't die. Augustus did defeat him in battle, but he did spare him for some reason, I don't know why, and the two formed a truce. So in 43 BCA year after Caesar's death, Augustus, Mark and another man named Lepidus formed was called the Second Triumvirate and divided the empire amongst the three of them.

And as part of this truce, Augustus had Cicero killed as a sacrifice to appease. Mark what? But wasn't Cicero part of the Yeah, Cicero? No, he wasn't he. Was like an ally with Augustus but Mark really wanted him dead so Augustus had him killed. Damn. OK. Yeah, and contrary to Caesar, who? Diplomatic, I guess. Yeah, and contrary to Caesar, who I talked about last episode, who when he was brought the head of his enemy, he was really upset by it and didn't like it.

Mark on the other hand, when he got Cicero's head, he had it displayed. That's a. Turn. Off so not a good look for Mark, but he kind of is a brute. But that was ancient Rome, so. Different time back then Take a drink. Take a drink. I actually need to take a drink. My throat. 'S he's kind of reminding me of like, oh, I know, sorry, Mel, I know you didn't watch Game of Thrones, but like Oberyn Tyrell or something. I think he's very similar. That's Pedro Pascal's character,

yeah. Surrounding me of him, I feel like he would like the head of an enemy too. Definitely he wanted to kill that mountain guy and probably would have liked to have his head anyway. Sorry Mel. So. This one to just connect it to something that you feel like you really understand, you know? Yeah. I see the reference exactly why Dora Dora Martin wrote it like that, yeah. He's definitely very inspired by this time period and these families. So. So anyway, back to the story.

Through Augustus's and Mark's truce, they joined their forces to wage war on Brutus and Cassius, two men who had been involved in the assassination of Caesar and both were killed by the end of the war. They did what they want to do and after the war, Mark went to Greece and then Turkey. And while in Turkey, Mark sent for Cleopatra to join him as he had heard rumors that she had funded Cassius forces against

Augustus during the war. I'm not sure if she did or not, there's no record of it, but if she did it might have been because she thought that with Augustus dead her sights her son might be made Caesar's heir. So even though she wasn't happy about Caesar being dead and probably doesn't like Brutus or Cassius, the men who killed him, she probably thought that they had a like minded enemy. So the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So.

That's probably why. So initially, Cleopatra didn't want to go to see Mark, in part because she disliked being bossed around and told what to do, being that she was a queen and who was Mark to tell her what to do? And she might have also feared what would happen to her if she were to go. The stakes were very high. But then Cleopatra was apparently told, according to Plutarch, that Mark was the gentlest and most chivalrous of generals, and that she shouldn't fear him.

She had known him from her previous time in Rome. But they most we did not know one another in a personal capacity. So this was kind of the first time she really was told and really understood who he was. And so in 41 BC, at the age of 28, Cleopatra went to Turkey to convene with Mark, who was then 42 years old. OK, not too bad. Definitely a smaller age gap than her and Caesar. Yeah, it's only 13 years. Meanwhile her age gap with Caesar was 30 years.

Pretty big. So Cleopatra went to see Mark. However, she did it on her own terms, so not theirs. Supposedly she was to meet Mark at his throne in Turkey as soon as she arrived, but against his orders, she sailed from the Sidneyus River in a golden barge with purple sails and orchestra aboard. Her attendees dressed as cupids and sea nymphs, and herself dressed as Venus as she lounged in the canopy. Oh, is she?

So over the top. She's she's there on it, like she wants to get together with him. No. So it was in a romantic cast. He like going to seduce him. I mean, it could have been, but what she was really trying to signify to him is like, I'm queen, Yeah, I'm queen, and you're not even the dictator of Rome, so bow to me. Does seem like she's coming in hot though. She's. Yeah. All dolled up. I love the theatrics of it just 'cause I watched the Grammys

last night. It's just so modern in a way, like our outfits and our decoration. Very much so. And when she sailed down the river, she did not go to where he was waiting to meet her, but to her temporary address in the city. And her entrance, like I said, was her mind mark, that she was queen and not a simple servant he could boss around. And not only that, but to get his attention and thrall him, so

to say. So not seduce him, but just like he goes to Greece, he goes to Turkey, he goes all these places and people pull up all the stops to impress him. So she knows she has a lot of competition in doing so. She she really has to really do something big to get his attention. So Mark at the time did control the East, including Egypt. And Cleve Hatcher knew it would be best not to stay on his bad side. And after ignoring his letters to meet for months, she knew she

needed to basically woo him. She's been there for months. And she's just been, yeah, he's been there for months. And she's just been ignoring his letters saying like, come meet, you know? Wow. And she did get his attention, especially also the people of Turkey's attention. Word spread very quickly that Cleopatra had arrived, and once it did, everyone was captivated. Apparently, the marketplace near where Mark was waiting for her had completely emptied out just so they could go to the

riverbank and watch her. And soon after she arrived, Cleopatra sent word to Mark that Venus had arrived to revel with Bacchus for the good of Asia. And if you don't know which I didn't, is the Roman God of agriculture, wine and fertility, which is the equivalent to the Greek God Dionysies, which may seem rhymed them to call him Dionysies, but it wasn't for no reason her calling him that Mark actually was declared the new Dionysies or Dionysies the back benefactor and joybringer during

his time in Greece. So she's basically saying like I'm Venus and Guru Dionysies and we're going to getting together to. Damn. Yeah, so she's kind of wooing him in that way just to get on his good side. I actually knew that about Bacchus because my fave place in New Orleans, I've only been twice, but fave place is this place called Bacchanal Wine Bar. It's so cool. It's like a house with a backyard and the whole place. It's cool. Christmas lights. I'm like, I don't, I love it.

But anyway, it's called Bacanel Wine Bar. And we were wondering like, what does that mean? And we looked it up. So I actually knew that. Wow. Yeah, I did not know that so. After that's kind of flirty. It is a little bit. So after Mark received her message, he sent one back, inviting her to dinner where he was staying. But Cleopatra in response said no, Come have dinner at my place. And Mark was hard to get frustrated. Yeah, definitely playing hard get. We don't really know.

But it was recorded by Plutarch that he accepted her invitation nonetheless, whether he was frustrated or not. So and so to show his supposed courtesy and goodwill. And apparently her banquet was magnificent beyond words and decked out in an extraordinary number of candles, A true spectacle. And they dined every night afterward, all at Cleopatra's insurmountable expense.

Apparently, at the end of every night, all the furniture and tableware and decorations would go home with the guests, and then the very next night there would be all new stuff. Wow. So she was really flaunting her wealth. And one time she even had a foot of roses blanket the entire floor. A. Foot. Yeah. So like the roses were all up to like your knees. That would be so fun. It would be. Like snow? Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, I'd be like snow.

You're just waiting for roses. They're so lucky back then, they probably don't have to worry about like, being wasteful. I know global warming and everything. But still, that would be hard to get. It would be hard to get. I know it must have been expensive. I don't know. Maybe Turkey has a lot of roses, I don't know. Must. Have been so expensive. Are they in like Constantinople? No, they're not. They're in another city, but I don't remember which.

But it wasn't constant example. So anyway, eventually Mark felt that it was time to reciprocate all her generosity. So a week or so after their first dinner, he invited Cleopatra to a banquet of his own. He apparently tried to surpass her in hospitality and extravagance, but again, according to Plutarch, he was hopelessly outdone on both fronts and was the 1st to make fun of himself and the less than quality banquet he planned.

Cleopatra didn't seem to mind however, and was actually taken with his humor and his crudeness and that mark seemed more akin to a soldier than a courtsier, and as a result it seemed that she was able to loosen up and act more herself around him. When he cracked jokes, she joked right back and there was an ease to their interactions. I know this sounds really

stupid. I don't know if you guys will get it, but this story and Caesar for some reason reminds me the courtship getting together kind of reminds me of like The Sims when you want people to get together and so you just like start funny conversations, say flirty conversation. Like you just keep like hitting the prompts and like the more time they spend together, even if you're like forcing it, it just happens. It's like the love meter just keeps growing and growing.

I feel that I get that. Maybe because we don't know what exactly they were cracking jokes. Yeah, exactly. So far away, yeah, but it is like we're God just watching like this. Yeah, yeah, we know true jokes, but we don't know what. And we can't watch like interviews or something. Yeah, well, his story, yeah. Back to the story anyway. Historian Stacey shifts surmise that Mark brought out a side of Cleopatra that no one in their entourage had ever seen before.

And supposedly, and Mark's own words later in life, Turkey was where Cleopatra and Mark first began their relationship. Like, physically, yeah. Sexually. Definitely. On the barge. Probably happened last time. I don't.

Know it did happen last time. I mean, just like last time with her relationship with Caesar. Many historians and secondary sources believe that their relationship was born out of convenience and political aspirations, and most normally, once again they believe Cleopatra was the perpetrator who purposely ensnared Mark with her sexuality.

However, actually, unlike last time Plutarch, who was only a few years old at the time when all this went down in Turkey, but even still he is a very close primary source. He's waged that what Mark Cleopatra had was indeed a love affair, but that it just so happened to harmonize well with other matters at hand. So to say. It was kind of like hitting two birds with one stone type of

situation. Yeah, like kind of modern couples today, like they might have alter your motives for being together or they might have career aspirations that benefit from them being together, but that doesn't mean they're not in love. Exactly. And I don't really know how Plutarch came to this

conclusion. He might have had insider knowledge or something, I don't know, but considering how seemingly biased and pessimistic everyone else seemed to be once again 1st century Roman writers, I choose to believe his interpretation about the rest. But that's just me. Listen to the rest of the episode and let me know what you

think. But anyway, if you do believe like me that Cleopatra and Mark were indeed romantic and sexual, then we had to acknowledge the elephants in the room or rather ghost Julius Caesar because Mark and Caesar have been friends and Caesar and Cleopatra used to be couple and now Mark and Cleopatra are together and it's like what does this mean? And is it even ethical? I don't know I mean not ethical, you know what I mean. But basically like is it weird that Mark got with his friends widow?

Yes, which this is not the first time this has happened on significant lovers. It happened. We covered Hunter Biden getting with his brother's widow, his sister-in-law, Hallie Biden. And we also talked about, though we didn't cover this couple, Elizabeth Taylor getting with what's the guy's name? Oh, yeah, Eddie Fisher. Oh, getting with Eddie Fisher best. Yeah, best friends with her husband that died. Yeah. Yes.

True, true, true. Yeah, we also didn't cover it also, but Stevie Nicks got with her friend's widow also. But again, didn't really happen. It does happen. And I also asked on Patreon, would you ever engage in a relationship with the widow of one of your late friends? And 46% said no, never. And 50% said it very much defends. Only 4% said yeah, why not? OK, yeah, I guess it's kind of. I love those guys. It's weird to say yes if you're not.

Like if that hasn't happened to you yet, 'cause then it's like, which friend are you looking at? Really? Like if you died, I'm deaf and like going after your husband. It's like, weird to know. That I expect the honesty I love. It I think the only instance where you might be like yeah is if you earlier kind of have an attraction before your friend passes away. Yeah. Holy crap, it's weird to think of that being like premeditated sad. Interesting question, Caitlin. Can you wait?

Can you repeat? Besides the people said yes, what was the response? Most people said no. So the most response was it very much depends with 50%, but 46% said no, never. Oh, so most people were on like it depends slash yes, true. Yeah, kind of like you never know. I guess the question. We can group them together, yeah. The question is more, if you happened to fall in love with your friend's widow or widower, would it stop you that? Yeah. They used to be with your

friend. Like would that prevent you from getting together? And I guess a lot of these folks are saying no, love is love. If you happen to fall in love, like that's not a deal breaker for me that you used to be with my friend. Wow. It would be hard too, though. The ghost of your friend would always be there. Yeah. And it might not turn out as romantic as you think. He or she, like they could be missing your friend. And you might feel like you never really can match your

friend, you know? And that would be kind of hard to deal with mentally. Yeah. I also would have a hard time thinking of that person as anyone other than their spouse's spouse. I guess like my friend's spouse, I would just even after their even after my friend died, I would have a hard time thinking of them as anyone else you know. And I mean, it's happened on the show, and it does seem like the grief can really profoundly bond people in a way that brings them close and then turns romantic.

But I also think I would feel guilty thinking the only reason I'm with them is because my friend died. And I mean, it's sometimes it's nice like that, you know, from every rainstorm there's a rainbow that like something nice and happy can come from something so sad. But I still think I would feel, I mean, nothing you can do to change it. But if my friend wouldn't hadn't died, I wouldn't be with this person. Made a couple patrons who had opinions on the matter.

Also, Heather said depends, death might end up bringing two people together in a way not previously thought of or explored, which definitely could. Like, you never know, the world works in a mysterious way or whatever. But. So I guess Heather's kind of open to the idea, but probably wouldn't. I don't know, like she's not going to hop on her friend's spouse now, but maybe if their friend died. I don't. Know. Sorry other, don't put that on

other. Anyway. Yeah, So anyway, Zoe commented. No, never. I don't think I could bring myself to be with my late friend's partner personally. Even if the friend gave consent prior to the passing, the ACT feels inherently selfish and borderline disrespectful. Am I being too harsh? No, I don't think you're being too harsh. I I do think I would feel it would feel kind of wrong most of the time. It'd be hard not to think of

your friend. Yeah, even if, if, even if your friend said it was OK or something. Yeah, I know. Everybody's different. That's what. That would be crazy though if on your friend's deathbed was like, you can get with my husband or something. I know, I know people say like I want my, like they want you to be happy. I bet that's what they want you to be, you know? Like I just want my spouse to be happy after I die or whatnot. But they can always be happy with a stranger anyway.

So Thelma commented absolutely not. It'd be so disrespectful for the grieving process. So very mixed opinions on here and Melanie commented Never Girl code extends past death. I do think it would be weird for the living like friend group or family. They would kind of be like, what the hell? Yeah, it would, yeah. Especially if there's kids involved. I think it could make it more painful. This happened on the show This

Is Us and everyone. A lot of the fans hated the friend that Rebecca Pearson, the main character, gets with after her husband passes away. But I actually am a strong defender of Miguel. If you guys watch This Is Us, I think it happened very organically over a long period of time. Their grief and their love for Jack the character brought them together and eventually on the show two people come to respect him as Rebecca's wife and the

stepfather and all that. Yeah, because I'm, I'm kind of mixed on it. Like I do kind of agree with Heather, like death might bring two people together. I do see the other side of it being kind of weird. But I think also for kids, they might like more that the person that their parent end up with is someone they know and like already. Then maybe you can see stranger, you know? So I think it, it just depends

this thing. But at the same time, it could be like you're going behind so and so's back or something. It's very complicated. It's very complicated. Kate, did you? This is a different scenario. What I used to think, it's not friends, but when I was little, I used to think that our Nana from our dad's side and our grandpa and our mom's side. Should. Get together. I think I used to think that too because I was just like, they're both. 02 old people.

They're both single, like they're both widows. Yeah. I thought it was going to happen and. Especially since for some reason, I bet because prior to my birth, my grandma on my mom's side and my grandpa on my dad's side passed away. But growing up in our kitchen, we just had a picture of my grandfather on my mom's side and my grandma on my dad's side

together. And I think when I was a kid, I actually thought they were a couple because they were the only grandparents I knew and they, like, we had a picture of them together. They were both your. Godparents understood, yeah, they were my godparents, so I just thought they were a couple. And then I think once I found that they weren't, I was like, why aren't? Why aren't? They I know and they would like be at family parties together. And yeah, I just thought that

they would be together. So I can imagine little kids. I don't know about a teenager. I'm sure a teenager would be like what the fuck? But. Yeah, but if you're a kid A. Little kid might actually like it. Yeah, But kind of another question which I didn't pose to the patrons, but I guess I'll post to you guys because Melanie commented like Girl Code. Do you think it changes things if it's a man getting with his male friend's widow as opposed to a woman getting with her

female friend's widow? Or is it the same or is it different? Like does it matter? In my experience, and this is not true for everybody, but I do feel like from the friends, the guy friends I've had over the years, that bro code is not as strong as girl code a lot of the times. And it might be because boys don't really talk about their feelings as much with each

other. And so I've seen it plenty of times where a guy and his girlfriend will break up and then later the guy, the guy's friend will get with that girl and they never even discuss it. They never even get mad. They just like don't talk about it. But like they might bottle up their feelings and being like, that's weird that my friend did that.

But they don't know that it's wrong because they don't like talk about it with each other and like establish boundaries and like expectations in their friendship the way girls do so. And maybe not the case for everyone, but I feel like guys just like assume each other don't care. I'm not sure about wait, what would you even call this time

period? Ancient. Ancient. I'm not sure about ancient Rome and Egypt, what the bro code was like then, but I feel like As for North America 21st century, I agree with Mel. I know Charlie, my boyfriend has told this story to me before about how like he has his friend who he's still friends with, but he always says like, oh, did you know we got in a fight once because one of them dated the other's ex. I can't even remember who it was and it was like in middle school

or something. I think they like punched each other. Oh my God. But then they But then they were all good. Yeah, yeah, they don't. Like just. Yeah. Surface level I don't know. Yeah, they like guys will break up, go through a breakup and their friends won't even ask them like, well, what happened? Like, do you want to talk about it? Like I. Know they don't know. Anything at all, it's nothing that's. Crazy. They're just like, oh shit, man, that sucks. Yeah, anyway.

Girls know every intricate detail like we go. Over it all, the. Details OK, let's start from the beginning. Blah blah blah. Yeah. And then we start again, harder. For a girl to get with her friend's widow because you probably know all the details of their relationship. Already. To it, but with like a man with his male friend's widow, you probably know nothing about that relationship, so you kind of go in with a fresh slate. That's true. She's like basically a stranger

to you. Weren't Marc Anthony and Cleopatra married? Yeah, wasn't he? I Who? Marc. Anthony when they got together. Doesn't he have a wife? Well, he has a wife, yeah. Cleopatra Single though. Oh, oh, OK. What happened to Ptolemy? Her second brother, he's dead at this point in time. OK, She had him killed. Nice. Oh nice. Nice, nice. All right. Well, kind of.

Speaking of actually killing siblings, Cleopatra had to cut their burgeoning romance short, leaving after only a few weeks in Turkey with Mark to turn back to her throne in Egypt. She was facing many threats against her reign while she's away, most notably from her sister and nephew, who both claimed to be the rightful rulers. But with Mark's help, Cleopatra didn't face those threats for long, because soon after their My time in Turkey, Mark had Cleopatra's sister and nephew executed.

And many people suspect Mark did this at Cleopatra's behest. But she is she. OK with that. Definitely. She was definitely OK with that. I mean, she killed her other brother. Yeah. So she had her sister and her nephew killed. Harsh. Different time. I think at this point in time, like literally all of her siblings were dead. Oh. My gosh. And most because she wanted them dead. But anyway, she needs Jesus in the fall.

Jesus isn't alive yet. But anyway in the fall, 41 BC, 41 years before Jesus would be born. Not to get too religious on Maine, but anyway, a couple months after Turkey, Cleopatra invited Mark to Egypt and he went. And many historians suspect that he went there not wholly for Cleopatra, but also for politics and business purposes. But Mark actually did not travel with a military escort, nor the Insignia of auspice. He apparently adopted the dress and way of life of an ordinary

person. So essentially, he was just there to be with Cleopatra and be a Taurus with no seemingly official motive behind it, no strings attached. And during his time in Alexandria, Mark and Cleopatra started a drinking club called the Intimidable Livers and threw numerous banquets and parties together. Wow, yeah, sounds. They were also said. No, they knew back then that the liver processed alcohol. I know. I think the Egyptians figured it out first, but correct me if I'm wrong.

How did they even know? Like what? The organs I guess they get when you die. Maybe they do an autopsy. Yeah, because they were doing like mummification and stuff. And they would. Take him. Body parts and stuff. Anyway, not Speaking of body parts, Mark and Cleopatra were said to be inseparable, spending all their time together. Wherever he went, she followed, and vice versa, Pletark wrote.

She played dice with him, she drank with him, haunted with him, and watched him as he exercised in arms. And at night, when he would station himself with the common folk, she would go with him on his rounds of mad Follies, wearing the garb of a servant maiden. Interesting. And while he was with Cleopatra, yeah, it kind of reminds me of Aladdin in a way. Oh yeah. I don't know, it's a little cute. Anyway, while he was with Cleopatra in Egypt, Mark turned his back on Rome and didn't

meddle much with politics. He didn't really care about any of it so long as he remained on Augustus's good side. And little did he know, his wife Folvia and his brother, Mark's brother had incited a war against Augustus. And we're trying to lure Mark away from Alexandria to come help him. But when Mark found out, instead of dropping everything to help them, he was furious.

Not only had they dragged him away from Cleopatra because he did have to leave Cleopatra behind to go talk with them in Greece, but they were challenging his already rocky alliance he had with Augustus. So he left without saying goodbye and without joining their cause. And shortly after that, in early 40 BC, Fulvia passed away due to illness or maybe suicide, historians don't really know. But she and Mark never got to talk to each other ever again.

Like that was the last time Fulvia and Mark saw one another. Wow. And Mark felt very guilty and blamed himself for it. He also felt guilty for using her and her death as a scapegoat to Augustus because to quell Caesar's adopted son, Mark told him that Fovea only started the war out of jealousy and wanting Mark away from Clay Patra. Yeah so to get on my guess this is good side. He was like it wasn't that serious, it was just jealousy. Don't take what she did as anything against me.

I had nothing to do with it lol. Well, you know. And Augusta seemed to have bought the lie, but instead on seemed to have bought the lie but insisted on solidifying his and Mark's alliance even further so nothing of that sort would happen again. And then Mark apparently wanted to marry Cleopatra. He even referred to her already as his wife. But Augustus didn't want that to

happen. He didn't want Cleopatra, who was one of his nemesis and who had a lot of money, to partner with Mark and give Mark more power and give Cleopatra more power. Because yeah, Cleopatra and her sons with Caesar were already a threat to a spot in Roman society and would be even more of a threat with Mark on her side. And so instead of Mark, Mary and Cleopatra, Augustus offered his half sister Octavia up to Mark as part of the truce. No.

This complicates it even more. And apparently the news did not go over well in Alexandria for the people and for Cleopatra. Not just because Cleopatra hated Augustus, but also because the same month Mark and Octavia wed, which was December of 40 BC, Cleopatra gave birth to twins. What? His twins. Yeah, his twins, yes. Oh my gosh. She survived.

That. I know she had a boy and a girl, Alexander Hilos and Cleopatra Celine and both of which like I said, were the children of Mark. And I should mention that Caesar on Caesar's Kid was about 7 years old at the time. OK, so she's a single mom. Yep, her baby daddy and. You can't even like potentially say like, oh, it was her husband's because she wasn't married so. Yeah, gosh. And does he know? Does he know that she was pregnant? I mean, how do you hide that she's part of a twin?

Yeah, he knew and he wanted to marry her, but he was kind of had his hands tied and had to marry Augustus's sister instead. But. Couldn't he just say fuck off to Augustus? Because Augustus wouldn't have liked that. And he'd have been like kicked out of Rome or something. I don't know. You'd have been like a pariah. I don't know. I. Can't believe that you could survive at that time period completely unmedicated with no medical intervention whatsoever carrying twins and giving birth.

That's crazy, I know. And like the the babies usually like twins are born premature, that the babies don't even need any medical intervention, that they serve well. Did they survive? Yeah, they did. Wow, that's incredible. I know it's actually very fortunate. But on the flip side, unfortunately for Mark, he was unable to meet his newborns as he was made to stay in Rome with his new wife. Apparently, they were both paraded around the country like

celebrities. They were marketed as a sign of hope and peace for the Roman people, kind of like a royal wedding today, like something to distract the common people, placate them, give them something to be happy and excited about and not cool. Yeah. Anyway, in 39 or 38 BC, Octavia gave birth to her and Mark's first child, a daughter. So he was with Octavia at this time, even though he did have kids with Cleopatra off in Egypt. So he's a lot of kids kind of

giving Jude Law right now. He has. I know for real because he has two from his previous marriage and then he has 2 with Cleopatra and then he has one with Cle and then he has one with Octavia and then he has another with Octavia. In 36 BC his second daughter both were named Athena or Antonia. So that brings him up to six kids. OK, so he didn't have any kids with his second wife. Wait. No. So his first wife, he had one. So he had seven.

He had one with his first wife, 2 with his second wife, 2 with Cleopatra and then two with Octavia. Oh my God, Seven kids, four different women right now. This is getting to be a lot. He also there was no basis to it so didn't include it. Some people thought he had another wife before his first wife and had kids with her but there was no evidence to suggest it so I didn't include it. And people also said that maybe he also had bastards also, so he might have had a bunch of other kids.

Oh my gosh. So there's like potentially a lot of people who are descendant from Mark Anthony probably out here. Yeah, probably, yeah. Apparently, even though he was married to Octavia, Mark and Augustus did not get along at all. I think in part because Mark was forced to marry a Octavia and they would regularly need Octavia as a peacemaker between them. However, try as you might, by 37 BC Mark had reached his final straw with Augustus, the straw

that broke the camel's back. And so Mark wrote to Cleopatra telling her to meet him in Greece, and she did so at once. And this was the first time that they had seen one another in 3 1/2 years since Mark left to put down Fulvia's war all those years ago. And this was also the first time Mark had met his children, now almost three years old, and both of which, thankfully, Mark claimed as his own, which was something Caesar had never done with his own child.

That's nice. And soon after reuniting in Greece, Mark and Cleopatra wed, as many historians suspect, and coins began circulating with joint portraits of the two signifying their union. So do people not have to get divorced back then? They did, but I think they just like had a ceremony saying that they were married. And so. As for Octavia, Mark's other wife, when he left to be with Cleopatra in 37 Basie, that was the last time he ever saw her. He would never see her again.

Wow. And not their kids either. He did, I think, see their kids, but less so than he did his other kids. Yeah, wow. Yeah, so poor Octavia, I guess. But now Mark and Cleopatra we're back together and most likely married. And Mark gifted Cleopatra the island of Cyprus, as well as parts of Libya, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey and Crete. And by the end of 37 BC, she ruled most of the entire eastern Mediterranean coast. But that's not all Mark gave

her. In August or September of 36 BC, Cleopatra gave birth to their third child, a son named Ptolemy Philadelphius. Wow, it's interesting she used that name. I know like another Ptolemy. Technically her eldest son is also called Ptolemy, although everyone calls him caesarean. SO2 Ptolemies.

Wow. And once again, Mark was not there for the birth again, as he was off on a military campaign against the Parthian Empire. Cleopatra had actually gone with him initially, but when she was close to giving birth, Mark sent her back to Egypt to deliver their child there because he was like, no, war zone is the place for you to give birth. So, yeah, OK. So now he. Is even though they wanted. Yeah.

Yeah, because even though they want to spend all their time together, he was like, I have to be a military leader and you go back and give birth, OK. And a couple months after giving birth, however, Mark did send for her again, and apparently would obsessively watch the shore awaiting her return. He was far more concerned with that than anything else Putok wrote, for so eager was he to spend the winter with her that he began the war before the proper time and managed

everything confusedly. He was ever looking eagerly toward towards her and thinking more of her speedy return than of conquering the enemy. And at this time, while he was off on his campaign, Octavia tried to come and see Mark. She even sailed all the way to just do that, but Mark sent her away without laying a single eye on her. And so Octavia went back to Rome, a woman's board which then her brother really did not appreciate. That's sad. She sailed all this way.

Yeah. And he was like, I don't want to see you. Yep, and Augustus, who is now 28 or 29 years old, began to vocally trash Mark's reputation in Rome for what he did to Octavia. He also. Runs to be that way, like he I. Know he. Set his sister up for this in the first place. I know he knew Mark wanted to marry Cleopatra and be with Cleopatra. You shouldn't have. Yeah, made them marry. I guess he thought making them marry would keep Mark in line,

but Oh well. And so Augustus also had Lepidus arrested the man who, if you remember, was the third part of his and Mark's political alliance. So now it basically was just Augustus and Mark. There was no other person. They were the ones that were in charge of Rome at this time. OK.

And because of Augustus, the people of Rome began to sour against Mark, not just for the Octavia stuff, but also because Mark went to war and won against the Armenian king after the king declined a marriage alliance between one of the Armenian princesses and Cleopatra and Mark's first son Alexander. So after the king said, no, I'm not marrying my son, my daughter to your son, Yeah, he started a war. Yeah, he went to war with Armenia and the Armenian comedian king and he gone. Yeah.

And he captured the king and his family and just like held them as prisoner. And like and then. Because. Because. He said no. Marriage proposal that he said no to? Yeah. Yeah, it does seem a little dramatic. I can see the common people, like we're not risking our lives so that your son can marry an Armenian Princess. Yeah. What?

They also just thought it was like a waste also because they didn't really care about Cleopatra's and Mark's sons because they love Mark and Octavia back in Rome. They're like, who cares about Cleopatra and Mark and their kids? That's not who we care about.

Like that's we don't like that, which also soured the opinion of Mark. Mark and Cleopatra in 34 BC held a ceremony in Alexandria where they sat side by side on Thrones and declared themselves and their children including Caesarean, new gods and goddesses and divided the empire amongst one another. Cleopatra was also the given the title Queen of Kings or Mother of Kings, and their children the titles King of Kings. They're the new gods. Yeah. What?

And so if people didn't like the crowning of Caesar, they really didn't like them calling themselves gods and gosses and kings and Queens, you know? Yeah. So they did not like that. Stuff like this doesn't end well for. Folks. Nope, and historians also believe that if they weren't married already, Mark and Cleopatra may have wed at this ceremony or had like another wedding ceremony during this

party. Essentially Stacy Schiff, one of the historians I talked about wrote As of the winter 35 BC it was impossible to to deny a full blooded romance, if by romance we mean a congenial, intimate past, a shared family, shared bed, and a shared vision of the future. December 28th, 34 BC, An inscription was made on a statue of Mark and Alexandra that said intimidable lover, lover this time not liver. And the definition of is so good it's impossible to replicate or copy.

That's what it means. So he's like the very first significant lover. Oh wow, you're right. Do you think that she loved him more than Julius Caesar? 100%. I think she. I think she liked Caesar and maybe was in love with him, but she and Mark got to spend way more time together. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like Mark is like it, more willing to be with her. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, and intimidable lover it seemed he was.

Mark gifted Cleopatra all the books and scrolls in the library of Purgemum so that she could replace those lost in the burning of Alexandria 15 ish years prior. He also sent her love notes and vice versa. Hers were known to have been inscribed on Onyx and crystal tablets. Wow, fancy. Yeah, so he would be like in a meeting and then a messenger would come with a crystal tablet with a love note on it, and apparently he would read it to everybody else.

Oh wow, do we know what those said or no? No, unfortunately not done. I know and. That's so cool if it still existed. I know, unfortunately, like nothing that Cleopatra wrote still exists. Wow, that's a shame. But anyway, Mark spent most of 34 to 32 BC in Alexandria with Cleopatra and the kids he seemed to have most.

He seemed to have lost most of his political ambition during this time, preferring to be a husband and a father above all else, and even wrote to Augustus that he would forfeit his position and powers so long as Augustus established a Republic in Rome. But Augustus declined, and instead delivered a speech against Mark and Cleopatra before the Senate, and Mark then had no other choice but to officially renounce Augustus. And then he then now officially

divorced Octavia and claimed Cesarean as the rightful heir to Caesar, and the latter of which being a sentiment he repeated in his will, which was then subsequently stolen by Augustus. I don't know how Augustus stole his will, but he did. And also in Mark's will was the stipulation that he should be buried alongside Cleopatra in Egypt instead of Rome, and that Alexandra would be made the new capital of the Roman Republic.

OK. And Mark's will was the smoking gun Augustus needed to declare war on Cleopatra. And he did. In 31 BC, it was announced that Rome and Egypt were officially at war. Oh this is a stupid question, but how are Augustus and Cleopatra connected to? They were connected through Caesar. What's their? Relationship Augustus is Caesar's grandnephew who adopted and made us his heir. And Cleopatra was with Caesar obviously and had a child by Caesar and she wanted her son to

be Caesar's heir. But August, Arian, yes it's Arian. And Augustus was like no, I'm the heir. So Cleopatra and Augustus have been fighting basically since ever since. OK. Because of that. But he's not really like her former stepson. Like it was not. No, they didn't know any other. OK, Yeah, No, they didn't know each other until the Caesar's will was read. And then I was like. Oh, so that's so annoying. Like, who are you?

Yeah. Exactly. That's why Mark's like, who's this boy who's just going to take over Rome? Sorry Caesar, but why did you do this? Yeah, he complicated stuff. All right, let's let's take a break and we'll be back in a minute. Insert add I'll be right back. We're. Back So Mark and Cleopatra went to Greece to set up their headquarters and Mark tried to send Cleopatra away saying that she should wait out the war safely in Egypt, but Cleopatra refused and remains by his side.

And I'm not going to go into too many details, but Cleopatra and Mark began to lose many battles against Augustus, as well as allies and supporters. And eventually Augustus occupied Greece and the couple were forced to flee back to Egypt. And Cleopatra seemed to think at this time that the war was not going to go in their way. So she sent a letter to Augustus requesting that at the war's end, her children would inherit Egypt, and that Mark would be allowed to live in exile with

her and the children. Augustus essentially denied Cleopatra's request, sending a messenger to tell her that the only way he'd accept the deal was if she killed Mark and Cleopatra, and Mark then sent the messenger's head back to Augustus saying no deal. OK, good. Oh my gosh. Would you, whoever your significant other friend? Just kidding. Yeah, that could be in the poll question, would you? Kill your significant other. To save yourself and your children. For professional gain.

Yeah, it depends. Yeah, 4% said yeah, why not? 10% maybe? It depends. Oh my God. Well, even though they said no deal, Mark did reach out to Augusta saying that he would kill himself. Mark, Mark would kill himself so long as Augustus promised Cleopatra would be spared. But Augustus never responded. Trust someone's word after you're dead. I know. I know just like Survivor. What? The heck it is. If you can. If you can. Yeah, this is just like Survivor. I can.

Anyway, desperate and with Augustus's fleet advancing towards Egypt, Cleopatra sent her son Cesarean to India, thinking that it would be better if he were far away. She knew that she would most likely not be allowed to be the Egyptian queen anymore once Augustus game, you know, And she wanted him alive to succeed her. And also she believed that Augustus were to capture Cesarean. He would no doubt kill him. Yeah.

And on August 1st, 30 BC, Augustus invaded Egypt, and Mark's Navy and Calvary quickly surrendered. They were just completely outmatched by Augustus's forces. And upon his victory, Cleopatra fled to her tomb for safety. And for some reason, Mark thought she killed herself. Some historians believe she sent him a letter saying that she did, although I don't know how that works. Him receiving a letter from her saying that she killed herself,

I don't know. But either way, thinking she was dead and with no other means of escaping, Augustus, Mark stabbed himself in the stomach. Wait, this is like Romeo and Juliet? I know, just spoiler. Anyway, thankfully he was found by his friends before his wound would prove fatal and he was brought to where Cleopatra was hiding in her tomb. However, he's succumbed shortly after to his injuries and died in her arm. No, this is. Tragic. Oh my. God, I know.

Well, I think he really loved her though. That's like. I think so. Very romantic. 100%. So he wasn't going to brothels and everything like he seems like he was like no dedicated. To her, at this point in time, he was very loyal to her. And. Her only he. Basically killed himself for her. Oh, very. You know who It also reminds me of? Edward. Reminds me of Edward. Jerry, Edward. I wonder if Stephanie Meyer thought of that at all.

Maybe. I think maybe she was inspired by Romeo and Juliet, which is inspired by this. Oh true. Yeah, because there is like the Italy part aspect of it as well. Yeah, Oh. Yeah, yeah, they talk about Romeo and Juliet in the moon. Duh. Well anyway Cleopatra apparently grabbed Marks knife and tried to follow him and take her own life but was captured by Augustus before she could and Cleopatra's children non cluing caesarean were also captured alongside

her. No. Yeah, and Augustus plan to keep Cleopatra alive, wishing to show her off as a prisoner of war to the Roman public. However, Cleopatra was against the idea, obviously. Supposedly she begged Augustus and said grudge me not burial with him in order that as it is because of him I die so I may dwell with him ever in Hades. It's basically like, let me die. I want to be with Mark, let me die.

And Augusta said no, and then was forced to thwart every attempt Cleopatra made to kill herself afterward. Apparently she tried multiple multiple times. Gosh. He's so he had to thwart every attempt, but unfortunately not the last. On August 10th, 30 BC, Cleopatra escaped back to her tomb where Mark was buried and poisoned herself. Wow. Wow. So very like Romeo and Juliet, except in Romeo and Jr. Poisoned himself and she Juliet stabs herself. Wow, it's tragic. What the heck?

I know it's very. Dumb. They have their kids together. Awful for the kid. Now you see why I said doomed. Yeah. And that's basically the end of Mark and Cleopatra. Thankfully, in accordance with Mark's will, Augustus did allow for Mark and Cleopatra to be buried side by side in her tomb in Alexandria. We know it's in Alexandra, but we don't know where exactly. Even still to the state, we don't know where their tomb is. Wow, no way.

Yeah, no one knows. People are still looking for it, but we don't know where it is. How? Could you? If you found it? How could they figure it out that it's theirs? Is that stupid question? Probably because of, yeah. I mean, so when I was in Egypt, all the tombs had on the walls basically the life story of the person that was buried there. And since this tomb was made for Cleopatra, like, so when she would inevitably go, she would go to that tomb.

So she probably would have had her life inscribed in on the walls in the tomb. So they would probably know that that was hers. But we don't know where it is. That's so crazy that it exists somewhere and they can't find it. Yeah, gosh, it could be like underneath a building or something crazy. Don't they have some statues like I in the British Museum or places where they think that it is Cleopatra, but they're not sure? I mean, not that it's like her

tomb, but. I was going to get into this in a little bit, but because Augustus took over Egypt, he annexed it. He had every statue of Cleopatra and Mark both in Rome and in Egypt destroyed. No. No, Yeah. So that's why we really don't have too many, too much evidence of what she looked like, because so much of it was destroyed. Yeah, I. Hate that?

And all the treasure that was in Cleopatra's tomb with Mark was also stolen by Augustus. Actually, all that goals and all those gems actually went on to fund Rome for long afterwards. Wow. Well, I guess that's nice. It's not like doing much and it ended up. Yeah, I. Ended up underneath Trinity Church in New York City as part of the national graduate. Maybe that's where Anthony and Cleopatra are. I did watch a show once. I don't know how real it was.

It was kind of like a national treasure copycat essentially. I think it only had like one or two. Was it on like The History Channel? Yeah, I think it was. But it had a case where they think like the Nazis may be found Anthony and Cleopatra's tomb, and they stole their sarcophaguses and bodies and stuff, and now no one knows where it is now because of that, I don't know. But what kind of the part of Indiana Jones? A little bit, I think so.

Crazy. Yeah, because then they think like, oh, the Nazis then hit it and then nobody knows where the Nazis hit it, so. How would the Nazis have known where it was? I don't know. I guess because they were also in Egypt, so they were doing shit there. I don't know. Man, it would be cool to see something from, you know, Cleopatra's time and. Mark Antony. Wow. Well, there's probably a lot at the Met and the British Museum. Probably. Excuse me? A new appreciation for it, Kate.

Thank you. Well, there's more A little bit. After his mother's death, Cesarean was lured back to Alexandria under the pretense that he would be allowed to rule Egypt freely under Augustus's command. But when he was returned, he was captured and shortly after executed, only 19 days after his mother. Oh. Gosh, he should have just stayed there. I know. He really had the option. But yeah, I would not trust Augustus at all. It is kind of like Survivor. Yeah. Yeah, just like Survivor.

How can you trust him? He broke into lions already. He's clearly not loyal well. As for Cesarean's siblings, they were rounded up and sent to Italy, where they were then paraded around the streets of Rome again as prisoners of war. And afterward, Mark's son with Fulvia was executed. I don't know why just him, but the rest were given to Octavia to raise alongside their half siblings.

Oh wow, so that's kind of nice that Octavia raised Mark's kids with Cleopatra. So Mark's lineage and Cleopatra's lineage might still go on, but it would be through like Roman society, so they might not even be aware of their ties to Cleopatra. True. Interesting. And then because Mark was dead, Augustus became the sole power in Rome and in 27 BC he crowned himself the first emperor of Rome.

Previously hit it had been a Republic like he said, and he officially annexed Egypt into the Roman Empire, which ended the Ptolemaic dynasty. So that dynasty also ended with Cleopatra. Augustus. Oh my gosh, I know. So that's how we're hungry. Yeah. Roman Republic. It's an empire now. It's the Roman Empire and there's an emperor. And yeah, that's all because of

Mark and Cleopatra, essentially. And I guess Caesar, wow, he did it. And yeah, so even though they died and they were expunged from Egypt and Rome, like their statues and their history, Cleopatra and Mark's legacy continues to live on. Still to the stay. They're remembered both accurately and not William Shakespeare wrote a play about them titled Anthony and Cleopatra, and we're doing a podcast about them in 2025 S you. Have you read the play I I feel like we've discussed? This.

No, I did not. I've never read it. I probably should. It's actually funny because he did the play after he wrote Romeo and Juliet, but I do think he was very inspired by it even still when he wrote Romeo and Juliet. Yeah, is and the movie that Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton are in, that is the play. I don't think so. I don't think they do the whole Shakespeare thing. Oh, OK. But yeah, that's. I wanna watch it. Looking it up right now, it's adapted from a book.

But yeah, no, it's, I don't think it's based on Shakespeare. Oh, OK. Very riveting. Kate, thank you so much for all the. Research you put into. This. I wonder so much went into. It I wonder if anyone's learning about this in school that's listening and if this was helpful at all for your next test. I hope so, yeah. It's a use this as a source I suppose. Yeah. Thanks, Kate. Yeah, I'm so impressed. I know, I'm so glad I did it finally and it's done.

It's impressive, I. Know. Well, you're hosting again next week. Yes. What will that be about? Do you want to tease it? Yes. So the couple I'm covering next week is a very scandalous affair that occurred in the 90s, nineteen 90s. Damn. It's pretty different. Yeah, very different. Cool, you can't wait for that. That'll be that'll be on Patreon. Yep, we'll see you guys there. And if you don't already, be sure to follow us on Instagram at Significant Lovers.

We encourage our listeners to make guesses each week about who the episode is about. So if you think you know who I'm covering next week, make sure to let us know on Instagram. I would not be able to get that guess that no my neither no. Good, well anyway I hope you guys enjoyed the episode and we will get back together next week. Is your heart peeled with pain? Shall I come back again? Tell me dear.