Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight? Are you sorry we drifted apart? Hello. Hi. Hi, guys. Welcome to significant lovers. True love podcast. Yep, we are three cousins Zoo. I'm Kel. I'm Mel. And I'm Caitlin and. Thanks for joining us. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's a new year. Yes, 2025. It's a new era of significant
lovers. Yes, and it's funny 'cause I don't know, I still think of our seasons of the podcast as the school year, like September. Yeah, me too, I do too 'cause we started it like, well, did we start in August? I think we started like late August or maybe early August. Yeah. So it's not really a new era. Well, you know how like TV shows used to have mid season finales and then they'd go on a break? It's kind of like that. It's. Yeah, Reprieve. Yeah, it's second semester. Exactly.
So Caitlin is hosting today, in charge today, is telling the love story today. Kate, who are we talking about? Yes. So we are talking about Caesar and Cleopatra, I know, taking it all the way back in time to ancient Rome and ancient Egypt. Oh my gosh, Yep, I just saw Gladiator so I'm. Is he in that? Is Caesar in that? No, you know, it's Rome. I haven't seen any of the Gladiators Don't Hate Me listeners so. Well, I don't think it's the same. It's not the same time.
Oh, it's not. No, I don't. I think Caesar was maybe long. Gone by then, maybe. Yeah, well, I know from doing research that he used to oversee some gladiator games and he'd have gladiators and stuff, so I wasn't sure. Crazy. Yeah, Yeah, Mel and I, when we first started this podcast and then of course, Caitlin joined recently full time. We made a spreadsheet of ideas of couples. And I remember this was on the list. Like, I think it was actually pretty high up.
We were like, Oh yeah, we could do seasoning Cleopatra, but neither of us ever did. And so thanks, Kate, for. Yeah, it's actually #22 on our list. Wow. I mean, it wasn't in like any kind of order, but we have like 200 ideas on. Here SO. I'm glad that you are finally doing it. Yeah, so it was #22 and now this is what episode 106-7107 yeah, finally got us.
Done. So yeah, our first eleven ideas on the spreadsheet we have done, but then #12 we have not done yet which was which is Ellen and Porsche. Ooh, you'll. Have to do that soon. We have a couple new patrons that we want to thank first before we get into the episode for supporting us. Thank you. If you guys want to get double the amount of episodes a month you can join our Patreon. It is $5.00 a month or $5 for an individual episode and we have a
couple new patrons. Thank you so much to Yo Tyron. I think that's how you say it, Eoton. Thank you, Aaron and SD. Thank you. Yay. Clap, clap, clap, clap. Mercy Boku. Yes. Well, before we actually get into the episode, we will be doing the trivia segment, which is a new segment on the pod, and I'll be asking questions to Mel and Kel. Some of these seem easy to be in, some of them seem hard. So I'm going to start with the hardest question first, I think.
Ready. OK, which couple met at a hockey game? Atlanta and Dave Coulier. Oh yeah, you got it. I was. Just about to say it. I was just about to. I was too slow. Sorry. Mel. OK, so the next question episode. Yeah, so the next question, when asked about their breakup years later, 1/2 of this couple that we covered said I was so sad. Not angry, sad. I was so miserable. I was barely eating and I couldn't get out of bed. Feels a little familiar. It does. I feel like it's kind of recent.
Is that Helena Bonham Carter? Oh, I said that fast. Well, it's it's not recent. I wasn't sure if Mel was asking that just rhetorically or not, but it's not a recent couple and it's not Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton. Lena Dunham. Nope. Is it Winona Ryder? Nope. No. Someone who was asked years later. Is it Carly Simon? Nope, Kelly, you're all out of guesses, OK? Is it Ruby Rose? Nope. And Melia, one more guess. Oh my gosh. OK, I'm gonna say was it Miley Cyrus?
Nope. No one got it. Who was it it? It was Mindy Kaling about her breakup with BJ Novak. Oh my God. I brought it all the way back to the first episode. You're right, that was not recent. As far back as he possibly could get. OK. Damn, I need to get this one. Yeah. So one last question for either Mel to tie it up or for Kelly to win. So which couple was 58 and 23 years old, respectively when they began dating? I don't remember doing such an
age gap, do you Mel? Is this wait, was this King James and George? Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding. You guys tied This couple that we're about to cover has a similar age gap I would say. Oh really? I did not. Actually, is it? Let me do the math. I'm excited because I feel like Caesar and Cleopatra are still some of the most famous humans ever and yet I really don't know much at all about. Them well, you'll be learning a lot this episode.
So I actually was intrigued to do this couple actually, because in March of 2024, which would be close to almost a year from when this episode's being released, I traveled to Egypt. I went there by myself. True. Well, not really by myself. I was with a tour group, but I went there and I'd really fun was I had a lot of fun when I was there. I love the food and the places I visited and especially loved learning about the history. It's just so like rich and expensive and fasting.
Like it's such such a long history. It's a crazy. And so anyway, flash forward to when you guys asked me to join the pod as the third host, like a couple of months after the trip occurred. I knew I wanted to cover an Egyptian couple. And although there's like so many that I could possibly choose from, like so, so many, I knew that really I couldn't start with anyone other than Cleopatra. But the real question was, like Cleopatra and who?
I didn't know who to cover, so I told Kelly a little bit about this. But initially I thought I would cover Cleopatra and Mark Antony because they're kind of considered like the iconic ancient couple. After all, they're the couple that Shakespeare wrote a play about. Shakespeare wrote Julius Caesar, but then he also wrote Mark Antony and Cleopatra. Like they're the couple, pretty much. They're a couple. Yeah, but when I began researching them, I realized that I could, like, not cover
them. At least not without covering. Cleopatra's relationship was Caesar first. It was just too difficult not to. Like Caesar was just far too ingratiated into both Cleopatra and Mark's lives that I'd pretty much have to tell the whole long story of Caesar's life as well as Cleopatra's relationship with Caesar if I were to cover her and Mark first. So in the end, I decide I may as well start with Caesar and do them first before I ever get to her and Mark.
So I do plan to get to her and Mark. Don't worry. Just not yet. So not next week. Not next week. Because, OK, it's also a big one and I didn't want to do 2 giant ones pretty much back-to-back. Cool. Yeah, but I will get to them probably the next time I'm host. Nice. But before I begin, I do want to say that just like with the James and George episode, which go check out if you haven't already, which I really love that episode. It's Shamus bug because I hosted it. I loved it too.
It was such a wild time. Yeah. I feel like we were like freaking out the whole. Time, there was a lot of drama that, yeah, there's just so much history about Rome and Egypt and even Caesar and Cleopatra's life's that I just actually could not fit it all into this episode. So just be aware that this will not be completely comprehensive. I'll try to include everything that's important, especially where they pertain to Cleopatra and Caesar. But once again, like, it was
hard to include everything. So if you're a huge history buff and you're mad that includes some battle or some historical figure, just keep that in mind. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Yeah, it's really tough. Yeah. But if you're on the opposite side of the spectrum and you listen to this episode with a desire to learn more, I highly recommend that you do. And I specially recommend that you check out the sources that I use when researching for this episode, which I used a lot 'cause I had to.
So I read Cleopatra, a source book by Prince Jay Jones, The Death of Caesar by Barry Strauss, The 12 Caesars by Gaius Atonius, Tranquil, and that was translated by Robert Graves, Cleopatra Life by Stacey Schiff, as well as the Julius Caesar and Cleopatra articles by Joshua J Mark on World History encyclopedia.com. Because sometimes I needed things to be explained to me like I was a child, and because there's a lot that I didn't understand.
Oh, I read a book. I read another book by Stacey Schiff. Oh, really? Salem, yeah, about the Salem witch child. She's great, I highly recommend. This she's. Yeah, that was a very dense book. Like in a good way. But she really does her research. I know. And I felt bad because I was reading the book and it was due that night to return to the library. So I was really just like flying through it and like trying to read as much as I could and trying to get the information
and I was running. Get new books. I couldn't because so I got the books at my school's library, the school that I work at, and they like need all the books before like the semester's over. I don't know why, like they couldn't renew any of them. And then I started like taking pictures of pages. So it's like my camera roll was
like 100 pictures of pages. So I could like look at the information later on. But anyway, you kind of already mentioned that you didn't really know much about Caesar and Cleopatra. Mel, do you think you know anything really about Season Cleopatra before this episode, either separately or together? No, really not much at all. Though my only experience with Cleopatra is the Shakespeare play with her and Marc Anthony, so I don't know anything about
them as a couple. I mean, it's kind of crazy. She had two high profile relationships. I know. All I really know about her is wasn't she Greek? Yes. So I'll kind of get into that more. They were like Greek Macedonian. So she really wasn't at all ethnically Egyptian. Wow. Even though she was like the queen of Egypt. Twist. A twist. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're ready to hear the story. Yeah, Kate, what 3 words would you use to describe this couple? Yes. So I would use these 3 words.
Describe them powerful, mysterious, and promising. Oh, OK. So I'm going to start with Caesar because he was born first. So Gaius Julius Caesar was born on July 12th or the 13th 100 BC. People also maybe think he was born 102 BC. No one really knows for sure but most people use seem to think it's 100 BC so I'm just going to use that date. And he was born to one of the high class families or Jens of ancient Rome called the Julie or Juliai.
They were believed to be descended from the goddess Venus. Which in some of the sources I read is just like weirdly accepted as facts. Which was. Descended from Venus. Yeah, I'm like, I didn't know Venus was a real person or like just existed. I don't know. That's interesting. Maybe she was. Maybe, I don't know. And then people like turned her into a mythical maybe being. Julius's father, also named Gaius Julius Caesar, was a Prater or a prater.
A prater who governed the province of Asia and his mother, Euralia. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry, all of Asia. Yeah, I didn't really look too much into his father. No, that's OK. Yeah, that was what his. That's what he's said to have been. And I think because, you know, this was still when Rome was like the big empire, they pretty much ruled like the entire world. So I think they owned parts of Asia, Asia, or like, so they owned parts of Asia and he was like in charge of overseeing it.
I see. And his mother, Euralia Kata, was of noble birth. However, despite all of this, his parents were apparently not rich, influential, or notably distinguished, I guess. Anyway, this might have also been because they're part of the popular political party where they believed in more rights for the lower class and the democratization of government, which wasn't really a popular belief in Rome. Even though it's the popular political party, it wasn't the popular political party, if you
get what I mean. I don't know. It's confusing because it's called popular, but it wasn't popular. Anyway, when Julius or Caesar was just 16, his father passed away and Caesar became the new head of household. And believing that becoming a priest would bring the most benefit to his family, Caesar managed to have himself nominated as a new high priest of Jupiter, which was a religion in Rome at the time. Oh, interesting. But as a priest, Caesar was
expected to marry a noble woman. And I didn't mention this earlier, but since he was a boy, Caesar had been promised to bury a woman named Kasusha, but he had to break off the engagement when he became a priest because while she was rich, she was not noble. So Caesar instead married a woman named Cornelia, who was the daughter of a high profile man of the popular political party that was the same as his
parents. So he's married, but soon after a Roman ruler named Sula declared himself dictator and began a systemic purge of his enemies and particularly those who held to the popular ideology, which Caesar being one of them. So Caesar was forced to flee Rome, but then his sentence was lifted, so he came back. But then Sula tried to have Caesar divorce his wife. I'm not really entirely sure why, and Caesar refused. So then he was stripped of his position as a priest and all of
his money was taken away. So without any other options, Caesar was forced to join the army. How could he just determine himself dictator He just like showed. Up Rome. In Rome. Like. I guess and from there's like people who are part of like the Senate and they just get really high and for some reason are able to like declare themselves as dictator and then they just aren't dictator until essentially they die, which I which usually people kill them. So they're not usually dictators
for long. Wait, so was dictator, was dictator like an official position? It wasn't like a negative term. It was like an actual. I think it was like. An almost an actual thing. Like they called themselves the dictator of Rome. You know of this empire? OK, got it. So, but emperors came later. So first there's dictators and then it became emperors. OK. Anyway, so Caesar was a great soldier.
I don't think anyone's surprised in me saying that he'd even risen to the ranks of being voted a Colonel, but you might be surprised to hear that he actually wasn't a soldier for long, at least at that point in his life. Shortly after becoming one, Emperor Sola died. I think he was murdered. So Caesar said peace out to the army for now and became a lawyer instead.
Wow. So during this time in his life, either 74 or 76 BC when Caesar was 26 years old, he and his wife Cornelia had a child, a daughter named Julia. However, five years later, after Julia was born in 9 BC, Cornelia passed away. Some people believe in childbirth, but no one really knows for certain. And two years after Cornelia died, Caesar married a wealthy woman named Pompia, who was actually the granddaughter of Emperor Asola, who had driven him out.
That's kind of funny. Yeah. The guy that like ruined his life. Yeah, and then he married the granddaughter. Wow. Yeah, but then he divorced her a couple of years later when she cheated on him with another man. Damn. Yeah, but don't. Believe that was a thing in ancient, Yeah. What divorce? The same, the same, the same stuff happened. I know.
Seriously. Yeah, but don't feel too sad for see through though because he was also a serial adulterer himself so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. He was constantly sleeping around with plenty of people's wives, and so I also don't think he twelled too much on the fact that he was getting a divorce, or that he had been cheated on for that matter, because he'd have been recently promoted.
Around that same time, in 62 BC, he'd been elected as a new governor of Spain, and he sailed there the very next year. Oh wow. I think we're having our first governor of Spain on the pot. I think, yeah, definitely. We did have an ambassador to Spain, but this is totally different. Wait, who was that ambassador to Spain? That was George Vilier.
Oh, yes, yes. Well, I'm not going to go too much into his time in Spain, but while he was there, he married a woman named Calpurnia, who was the daughter of a wealthy and powerful popular senator, like the same political party his parents had been in. And he also married his daughter Julia, who was now either 15 or 17 years old, to a man named Pompey the Great, back in Rome to solidify an alliance with that man Pompey. OK, so he's on his third wife
now. Yes, so he's on his third wife and I'll go to a description of Caesar at this point in time. He's said to be tall, a real ladies man. Yeah, he's constantly getting woman, especially women who are already married like I mentioned. And he was also bald and really insecure about it apparently. Apparently he combed over what hair he had to hide, but he was also fashionable and well manicured.
He collected gems, statues and antique paintings, and he was also said to be lenient and did not hold grudges. OK, that's good. Wow it's so crazy that like even back then people liked antiques. I know like there was antiques that. Blows my mind. What the hell. Oh my God. But someday people will say that about this time period, it was so long ago. I know. I don't see how it came, is it? I sometimes do wonder, like wow, will life really be like Dune or something?
Because like, what the heck would 2000 years from now be like? Maybe it is like Dune. Imagine maybe anyway. Yeah. So anyway, moving on, though, Caesar was in Spain. He, Pompey and a man named Marcus Krassus effectively ruled Rome at the time. They're like the three most powerful men in the empire. And Caesar is more so as like a console and proposing legislation because he was in Spain. He wasn't like directly in Rome
where the hub of the empire was. And I didn't really explain how that came to be, but because it's just so much. So if you want to know more, just read up about it. But Caesar was a very powerful man at this time, essentially, especially after his conquest of Gaul and the later death of yes, cool and the later death of Crassus in 54 BC.
And the same year Crassus died, one of the three men that were like ruling Rome, Caesar's daughter Julie Ilya died in childbirth, which effectively cut all ties between Pompey and Caesar. And because Caesar was in Rome at the time, Pompey had become the de facto military and political ruler, essentially like the dictator, and as such,
Pompey had the Senate strip. Caesar evolves power and titles, making him just a regular private citizen, so that if Caesar were to return to Rome, he'd be tried for all the things he did as a Councilman, which would be like war crimes essentially. Yeah, I don't know. And rather than flee, Caesar and his troops instead crossed from Gaul into Italy like Rome, and marched, well, crossed from Gaul into Italy and marched on the city of Rome and to Pompey.
This was seen as a declaration of war. And so this then began the Roman Civil War. Oh yeah, How old? Is he at this point? He. Is so this is. He's probably like 2452. He was about to be a grandfather. He's never mind. He's 5222. Wow. Yeah, just close to 24. Wow. Okay, he's lived a lot of life so far. Yeah, and I'm not going to go too much into the details of the romance of what works. Again, it's a lot. So please read up on some of the sources that I listed.
If you're really interested, I encourage you to read anything by Barry Strauss. I totally recommend him. But all I'm going to say is that during this war, a man's named Mark Anthony operated as Caesar's second in command. And I'm telling you this just so you remember that Marc Anthony is like they worked together. And they were roommates. Yeah. So just telling you that like, Mark Ante is in the background. He's around for all of this,
pretty much. And that also at one point in 48 BC, Pompey's forces were defeated in Greece. And so Pompey escaped the battlefield and fled to Egypt and Caesar. Pompey. Followed after Pompey, and so Caesar arrived in Egypt in 48 BC at again 52 years of age. But by the time Caesar arrived, days after Pompey arrived, Pompey was already dead. Yeah, so he'd been. Killed. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. What happened? This is ancient times like this is.
I know and not too. Soon or anything, Pompey had been killed almost as soon as he stepped foot onto the shore of Egypt by two military commanders. And why? Because they'd been hired by King Ptolemy of Egypt, who was then 13 years with old, and his advisors. And they did this because they heard of Caesar's victory over Pompey and believed that he would be a valuable ally in their civil war that they were fighting against Queen Cleopatra.
And they thought that Caesar would be grateful and give them a reward for killing Pompey. And when Caesar arrived, he was not grateful and did not give their reward when Ptolemy sent Caesar Pompey's head and ring. Apparently Caesar wept and
denounced his murder. And to the recently exiled Queen Cleopatra, this looked like an open door to allyship because Caesar obviously didn't think favorably of Ptolemy, who she was fighting a civil war against, and so she wanted meet this mysterious Roman man, Caesar. But who is this mysterious Egyptian queen, Queen Cleopatra?
Who is she? I don't know, no. So when Alexander the Great time without naming a successor in 323 BC, so about 220 years before the birth of Caesar, his Kingdom which extended as far as Egypt was broken into parts and divided amongst his generals. And Egypt was given to a man named Ptolemy, the first to rule. And the Ptolemaic family would then go on to rule Egypt for the next 300 ish years. And Cleopatra. Cleopatra Patra, the 7th was part of the Stine scene.
Cleopatra the 7th is the one that we're covering today. That's one of the subjects, yeah. I didn't even know she was the 7th. Yeah, so she's the 7th. So she was born in either 70 or 69 BC. No one really knows for sure. She was one of Ptolemy the 12th. 6 children actually. 1 of Cleopatra's sisters is actually also called Cleopatra. Oh, that's so weird. For some reason, Cleopatra's a very common name of that family, and same with Ptolemy.
You're going to hear the name Ptolemy so much in this episode, it's kind of crazy. So you'll have to really keep them in check because there's like a million Ptolemies. You don't hear Cleopatra much anymore. I know, let's bring back the name Cleopatra. So it's not. Your Cleo? What is Cleo? Cleo's. Like kind of show short for Cleopatra I think. Or is that Clementine? Is that a nickname for Clementine? I don't think so.
I don't know, it could just like some people are just named Cleo, so maybe it's not even short for anything. Yeah. Anyway, anyway. Anyway, so it's not certain who Cleopatra's mother was, as her father's wife, Cleopatra the 5th, was supposedly dead by the time she was born. She may have been alive, but there was literally no record of her past 68 BC. And Cleopatra, the one we're covering, was born in 69 or 70.
So some see the historians theorize that Cleopatra may have been the child of Concamine, just as her father had been. But at the same time, no one ever really questioned Cleopatra's legitimacy, not even the roamers, the Romans, who definitely would have. So we really don't know who her mom is or was. That's so odd to not know who her mother is. Yeah. And part of that is because, which I'll mention later is because of the burning down of the library of Alexandra.
So their history and their writings and everything about the royal family and pretty much everybody was like burned and destroyed. So we have no record. Oh, OK, so she knew so. Much of this stuff she probably did, but we don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Is it possible that her mother, or like her father's wife at least, was actually still alive? She. Could have been, she might have still been alive. We just have no record of her still being alive past a certain year.
So she might have. And though they adopted the titles, iconography and traditions of the Egyptians and of the Pharaoh's past, their official language was Greek, like you mentioned, Kelly. So just keep that in mind. So wait, wait, so her family, they were just kind of given the Kingdom? Yeah, so because Alexander died without any heirs, the empire is broken and divided amongst his like generals, and one of his generals was Ptolemy, and Cleopatra is a descendant of Ptolemy who was given.
OK. And Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian? No. OK, got it. Yeah, so Cleopatra's dad was supposedly very greedy. He was LED astray by luxury and ruled rather poorly and spent most of his times holding flute competitions in the palace where he would be against others. And at one point in 58 BC, when Cleopatra was 12, he was exiled by the people of Alexandria, and his eldest daughter Bernice the 4th, was made queen in his stead. Did you go to Alexandria? Yeah. Wow. How was it? It was nice.
I really like it. But obviously, like, what I saw as Alexandra is not what they saw as Alexander. Yeah. You know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you go to any like ancient places though? Yeah, we went to a bunch of like temples and altars and tombs and all the ones that are still around or that people have found. And we also went to the pyramids and the Sphinx. Wow. Crazy. If you guys want to see pictures of my trip, go to Katie Ander on Instagram.
You look so cute, Kate. Kate was in like a big hat. Yeah. Oh, you looked so worldly in glamorous. It was so cool. Well, it was believed that Cleopatra may have accompanied her father into exile during this time. However, Ptolemy soon came back three years later and he had his daughter Bernice executed in himself, restored as king. Oh my God. I know his family's greatly.
I know. And that really is Game of Thrones. Very, there's also a lot of like internal fighting within the family, which we'll get into later, but I also didn't include a lot of it also like there's a lot of siblings killing each other for various. Reasons. Oh my gosh. Well, fun fact actually. Ptolemy was actually aided by Caesar and Pompey's forces and money at this time.
They were friends. They were still like on good terms at this time to restore the throne, and Cesar actually wanted to be general governor of Egypt, but the Roman Senate wouldn't let him. So Cesar already had a relationship with Cleopatra's family long before they ever actually met. Interesting.
But anyway, so As for Ptolemy, his reign did not last for long as he died shortly after regaining the throne from disease in 51 BC. And so after he died, 18 year old Cleopatra and her 10 year old brother Ptolemy the 13th were then made joint rulers of Egypt as well as spouses. What? Oh no. It's also very Game of Thrones. Egyptian pharaoh thing. I don't know, blame them. They were just following the Way of the Lands when in Egypt I guess.
Yeah, so she's 18. Yeah, so she's. 18 and she's like betrothed to her 13 year old brother. That's so embarrassed. Old brother. Yeah, crazy. Take a drink. Yeah, take a drink. I don't think we've done siblings. No, no, that's a no this. Is this is yo Dick? Well, do you think anything? I guess we could wait to hear the story, but like, did anything actually happen? I don't think so, no, I don't think anything happens between her and her brother husband.
They probably were super embarrassed about it. Well, it's because this was so kind of common for them, because they were just, even though they were Greek, they really want to adapt themselves to like the Egyptian way of ruling. And for centuries, Egyptian Pharaohs have been marrying like within the family. So they just thought that this is what Egyptian Pharaohs did. So I don't know. Seems like they don't have the same like family dynamics and like attitudes that we have today.
Like even just like about her dad executing his own child like it that just wouldn't happen. That's. No. We have boundaries up that prevent stuff like that. That would. Like they didn't. I mean, they don't have Jesus yet. So. Serious about Jesus? True. It's true. It's true. Yeah, that is true. Well anyway, Cleopatra at this time is described as beautiful, captivating, persuasive, smart, she knew 9 languages and she was a real woman of the people.
She was apparently the only one of her family, not just like her immediate family, but the whole Ptolemaic ancestry, to have ever learned the Egyptian language. Wow. And yeah, and reading about her, she really reminds me of Princess Diana. She's very popular amongst the people. So popular, so much in fact, that her brother Ptolemy was jealous of that fact, and very
jealous. And in 48 BC, only about 3:00-ish years since getting the throne, him and Cleopatra, Ptolemy formed a faction against her and tried to depose her as Queen. And Cleopatly, yeah, he's like, 12 or 13 at this point in time. He also had advisors that were like, you know, what to do, so they might be at fault. So Cleopatra was forced to flee to Syria. But then she soon organized her own army, and a civil war
erupted soon after. And this is the civil war that Caesar walks into while he's on his hunt for a copy. So she's against her brother? Yeah, wow, siblings fighting against each other. I I love that people rallied behind their queen. And she would have just been like just the queen. But apparently according to the laws at the time, a queen had to have like a Co Regent. She couldn't just rule by herself so that's why she's paired with her brother. But like rightfully, it should
have gone to just her. Yeah, I mean, he's too young anyway. I know, crazy. So instead of simply just sending letters back and forth, they're talking through intermediaries. Because she didn't trust either to not be caught by her brother, Cleopatra set up a date and time for her and Caesar to secretly talk face to face because she, you know, wanted to talk to him to potentially go against her brother and have him as an ally in the civil war. And Caesar, intent on ending the
civil war in Egypt, accepted. He had seen what a civil war had done to grow when he fought Pompey and how that ended and he didn't want the same to happen in Egypt. So Cleopatra apparently dressed in all her best clothes and jewelry and was taken by small boat into the city of Alexandria as she was kept out of it by the time by her brother's forces. So then she was smuggled into the palace where Caesar was staying. She was either tied inside of a bedding sack or rolled up inside a carpet.
I don't really know sources theory, but either way, she was able to safely reach Caesar and immediately he was taken with her. He thought she was charming, eloquent, and above all, alluring. He was also impressed by her cutting strategy and her encourage to sneak into the castle. Historians don't know the exact date of when they first met, however, they do know that it was before dawn when their
conversation went down. The early hour was notable because the Caesar had the king Ptolemy, her brother, awoken and brought to his chambers. Ptolemy did as was requesting, came to Caesar for him to find Cleopatra there. And he was like, what? Like he was really enraged. He's like, what's going on? Is Caesar going to betray me? Did he already like, why is Cleopatra here?
But instead of deposing Ptolemy in favor of Cleopatra, Caesar told Ptolemy that according to the Egyptian custom, the Roman people had guardianship over them. And since Caesar was the dictator of Rome, now that Pompey was dead, he granted Egypt to both Ptolemy and Cleopatra dress as his father willed it. So basically just telling them like, hey, you're gonna be Co rulers. Just accept it, you know, like, this is what your father wanted, be Co rulers.
And I'm. And they're like Peter wrote, so I'm telling you what to do. Yeah. So Cleopatra was. And is that true? Like? Is it true Egypt was Was Egypt just like part of the Roman Empire? It was like part of it in a way. Like it was, it wasn't like fully a part of it. Like it wasn't annexed by them. It's kind of like, OK, it's not like Hawaii in the United States. It's more like Puerto Rico in the United States, you know, like something like that or like Guam, you know. Interesting.
Analogy, yeah. Yeah, like it's kind of a part of the Empire, but it's not like fully part of the Empire yet. They're kind of like you don't do anything without our permission. Yeah. But you are. Specially especially after Caesar helps to restore Ptolemy to the throne. Before Rome had way more of a foothold in Egypt than it did before, but it still had a foothold there prior. OK. OK yeah, so now everybody was happy with Caesar's idea, damely, Ptolemy and also his
advisors. They wanted to kill Caesar in Cleopatra and Caesar found out about this and killed one of the King's advisors. And after that, an all out attack was launched against Caesar's men and Alexandria in this fight. This was actually when the Library of Alexandria, quote UN quote, burned down the Ptolemy. Ptolemy had blockaded Caesar's fleet in the Wharf and some of his soldiers, Caesar soldiers, set fire to some of the Egyptian strips to free some of the room up in the Wharf.
But the fire spread to the docks and then to the library. However, most historians believe that the library actually suffered minimal damage or was not completely destroyed by Caesar's fires, despite what many people believe. Like if you look it up, most like everybody believes said it was Caesar and this war that burnt down the library of Alexandra. Like they're the ones to blame. But actually the burning of Alexandria.
I did like some side research. Sorry, fun fact, the actual burning of Alexandria that would destroy it forever would not be until 642 AD when Alexander was captured by the Arab army of Khalif Umar and they burned down the library of Alexander. Why did they do that? Well, they said that a lot of what was in the library wasn't like it didn't align with their religious beliefs, so they burned it down.
I don't know if you know the answer to this but like is it actually like very significant and tragic that it was burnt? Like worst serious? I'm guessing yes. It's really bad that everything was lost because like, again, like we did lose so much about Cleopatra and her family and almost everything about like Egypt essentially. Like we don't really know a lot of history about Egypt because of this, because everything that was about their history was
pretty much like in the museum. So, so many records were burned. But also the Library of Alexandria was part of like a museum as well as a university. And so that burned down as well. So all of the records that they had regarding like any math advancements or scientific advancements and stuff like that
was also burned. So potentially if it hadn't burned, who knows where we might have been scientifically or mathematically or like where we would be in terms of advancements because of that, you know? Wow. Damn, yeah. Maybe it's good to slow it down though, you know? I don't, maybe it would be too far advanced. You know AI, Yeah. Yeah, slow it down, I. Know I feel like we almost need like another reset, you know like let's. Burn down the meta server, yeah.
Seriously. Anyway, anyway, going back to 48 BC, presumably at this point in time Caesar and Cleopatra began a romantic relationship. And how How old are they both at this point? Like 23. So she is. So he's about 52 and she's 21. Wow. Yeah. So big age. She's like really young or anything. It's an age difference, but you know, not the worst. But really, I mean it, it's so much better than being with your 10 year old brother.
Yeah, yeah. Now, like historians don't really know exactly who came on to who or who initiated relationship. Popular belief is that it was Cleopatra's idea, but I personally have a hard time accepting that fact as like the gospel truth. And I'll tell you why for stars, because we don't have Cleopatra's Diaries. She might have had one, but again, it might have burned with the Library of Alexandria.
So we don't know. And we don't really know a lick about her thoughts and feelings or motivations. And we don't really know anything about Caesar as well. Like, he did write various memories throughout his memoirs throughout his life, but they were quite dry and documented very little about his personal relationships. It was very much like facts. I did this. This happens, blah blah blah blah, you know?
I feel like so many of the men we've covered on this podcast, that's how their Diaries have been. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, that's cute. They kept a diary, but then all they did was write like I ate today. Yeah, That is pretty much, I think in like all of Caesar's writings through his whole life, he only wrote one sentence about Cleopatra and it was to say that she was a loyal ally to Rome and that's it. What?
Yeah, it's not romantic at. All I know it's considering like the romance that they had that's so like minuscule to say about her. And so because we don't really have anything from Cleopatra and Caesar themselves. Most everything we know about them are from secondary sources like Plutarch or the guy with a long name that I mentioned earlier in this episode when I was listening my sources.
So we don't really know anything about them personally because the second secondary sources didn't know them personally. They were born like centuries later and they got their information from people who were alive at the time. But the people who were alive at the time who wrote were heavily biased against Caesar and Cleopatra, but mostly Cleopatra. Most of the primary sources were written by Romans who hated her.
They hated her like they seriously hated her, particularly a man named Cicero, who I won't really go into, but he was her biggest hater and he wrote a lot. So he's like almost one of the number one sources there is. So he thought she was like an evil, cunning seductress who was a floozy whore and like manipulator, like a succubus. And he he blamed her for his eventual death.
Like spoiler alert. And so because Cicero and all these Romans writings who hated Cleopatra, like are the only ones that survived, people take those as the gospel truth and then perpetuate them into the secondary sources like Plutarch, like 100 years later in ancient times. And historians today still take those as gospel truth and
perpetuate that as well. And some historians like to flip the story on its head by saying like, oh, but Cleopatra was just being like a girl boss by manipulating him. But like, as positively as you like to spin it, there's still perpetuating lie that she's like this evil whore pretty much, you know, And well, I can see that politics may have been a motivation for Cleopatra engaging in a relationship with Caesar and vice versa. Like, after all, Cleopatra was
really rich. She was like the richest person alive at this time. And Caesar did have a lot of debt, partially because of all the antiques he was buying. And Caesar was the ruler of the most powerful empire on earth at the time and thus could offer a lot of safety and protection as an ally. And so that could have been a
motivation. But I think it's kind of limiting to say that that was like the only reason, because I think that feeds into this myth that's been perpetuated basically since Cleopatra was even alive. And so the myth is in modern terms, kind of like it was APR relationship. Not that there was APR relationship. Not for the, not for. Not that it was, but not for the right, not.
For the right reasons, like she was just manipulating him with her sexuality to get him to do what he wanted and enslaved him to her desires and like she was just using him essentially. And that's the lie that's been told by the people who were alive at the time, who were Romans who hated her. And then the secondary sources of the people who were born, like, hundreds of years later, they took those writings of gospel truth, and they perpetuate that lie.
And then historians said, hey, they don't have any other, you know, sources to use. So they think, oh, that, you know, like this is what we have of Cleopatra. It must be true. So this is who Cleopatra was. But I think it kind of removed something from Cleopatra's character to say she was just in it for the power and security and nothing else. It kind of removes her agency to say that she's like kind of forced into the relationship in
a sense. Like she was forced into the relationship with her brother and then in another relationship later on. And for the total make generations, like women were constantly forced into these political marriages. And so I think just to force Cleopatra into another one is kind of diminishing her will as a queen in a way. Yeah. Anyway, what else? What else do you know about their story? I guess, yeah.
Well, I'll get into that. Well, all I have to say is that I have my own biases and I'm a homos romantic. So kind of as I said in the James and George episode, I like to believe that maybe there was more to just convenience and political alliances there. Maybe not love, but maybe love. I don't know. But don't take my word for it. Like I could also be wrong. So let me know what you think at
the end of this episode. But just know that many historians believe that Cleopatra went to Cesar initially, this seduced him, and she seemed to have been as successful. So, yeah, So what we do know, like I said again, like we don't really know much, but what we do know is that even though there was a war going on still between Ptolemy and Cleopatra, she and Cesar would host parties together and cruise together on the Nile on her state March.
Wow. So are they married or are they just kind of courting each other? Who's kind of courting? Because again, he is still married. Oh oh. Yeah, so he's still with 3rd. He's still with his third wife, Cornelia, and she's also technically still married to her brother. Yeah, but whatever, OK. But Speaking of her brother. They're cruising around them.
Yeah, cruising on the Nile. And Speaking of the Nile and also Speaking of her brother, in January 47th BC, Cesar engaged in a naval battle against Ptolemy on the river. And during this battle, the Egyptians were forced to flee and tell me Cleopatra's brother husband drowned and died. Oh. My God, that's sad. That's yeah, that's convenient. I know, I know. Kind of finishes off that story nicely. So is the Civil War over? Yeah, so the civil war is now
over. Nice. So after this Caesar placed Cleopatra on the throne alongside one of her other brothers because again she had to have a Co region and this was another Ptolemy but this time the 14th and Cleopatra was also married to marry this brother also. And how old is this brother? Is he? Even younger. I think he he was even younger. I think he was like 10 also like Oh my. God, she can't catch a break. She had two younger brothers and she married both of them.
Oh my gosh. Anyway, Caesar could have left after that. He didn't really need to hang around Egypt, considering the civil war was over and he accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. He could have really returned to Rome as its rightful dictator, especially since there were enemies rising up in his absence, but instead he hung around for a while. Supposedly they were inseparable at this point in time and spent weeks together on her barge on the Nile.
They would spend like 3 to 9 weeks at a time just sailing. Wow, yeah. And sounds fun. Yeah, and I know it sounds, it sounded nice. I was like, yo, like I did a river cruise on the Nile, but like on a like a barge that was like a royal, like apparently it's pretty much a palace that was just floating on the river like a palace. I was like, oh, I wish. Oh. Well, this makes me think they, they had a real passionate relationship because you're right. Like, why wouldn't he just go
back to Rome? He he would have been like, OK, cool, I have an ally here. Yeah, the war's over. I'm going back. Like why would he just stay? Well, one of the reasons he might not have wanted to leave is because at this point in time, Cleopatra's actually pregnant with their child. Oh my God. So they were having sex. Yeah. I didn't know that was happening for some reason. I know I. Know schedulers?
Oh my. God, and they probably like it probably took them a while to figure out someone was pregnant too. Like I'm sure they did like followed the moon and everything, but like it probably took longer. So she's probably like pretty far along, right? Exactly. So they've been fucking sorry since they've been fucking since like while the war was going on, you know? Oh. My God. Well, you needed, you know, an escape. Yeah. That's crazy.
Yeah, well, Ptolemy the 15th was born on June 23rd, 47 BC and in some sources it says that Caesar was there for the birth and left for Rome shortly after, and in others it says that he'd been gone for months at this point. So I don't really know what exactly to be exactly to believe. But either way, those Caesar did not officially acknowledge Ptolemy as his own. He legally couldn't because he was married and that would be like a crime in Rome. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, he did.
I can't believe. Oh, sorry. What? No. What you're gonna say? I was gonna say I can't believe they used this name again. I know. I know there's so many taller I swear. I'm sorry, I keep like bringing it up and I'm sorry, Mel, I know you didn't watch it, but it's so Game of Thrones. How's the dragon with like? Everyone. A gone. A gone. Yeah. Yeah, literally. I think this has to be an inspiration for it.
It has to be. And the fact that Daenerys, I feel like they also came from somewhere that seemed geographically like Egypt in a way. Yeah, Yeah. Anyway. Well anyway, so then, so although he couldn't officially acknowledge Ptolemy as his own because he legally couldn't, he did allow the child to take his name, which is not something you would do for a kid that isn't your own. So it's a little suspicious of some people. So the child's full name is Ptolemy Caesar, or Caesar, Carry
on as everybody called him. Wow. And I'll probably just call him Cesarean for the rest of it because calling him Ptolemy is just like, there's too many. It's it'll confuse. Me wait are like C sections like named after Caesar? Many people believe so, because apparently it's believed that Caesar was the first person to be born via C-section. Maybe. What? That's so crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. You knew. That off the top of your. Head like that.
Well, I had heard that too. I didn't know he was born there's. I know it was like him, but I knew there's. Some connection to it, so yeah, so. Maybe, maybe it's just like during his time that, like, practice started happening, Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, so his kids caesarean and that's, you know,
C-section, so caesarean. So Cleopatra was also very vocal about the fact that Cesar was the father of Caesarean, and later in life a lot of people remark that Caesarean very much looked like Caesar. So I don't think it's really up for debate whether or not Caesar was the father. It's like a fact, pretty much. I I mean, what did people think? That the kids father was her brother? Yeah. Yeah, like that's the only other option I guess. You would if you were her in
that position. You would be vocal about that too. You're like, it's not my 10 year old kid brother. However, the historian Nicholas de Damascus, who was alive during the 1st century, which is after, you know, Caesar and Clet Patrick, say that Julius Caesar actually disowned Cesarean in his will. But there are no sources or texts that support this claim, and many historians doubt that Caesar would go to such lengths by this thought to include that in 46 BC.
So Caesar had been gone to Rome for some time. He had also been elsewhere, just, like, fighting little battles that had popped up because people have, like, started to pop up to climb, you know, power in Rome. And he had to quell that. So he'd been in Rome for a little bit of time. Caesar invited Cleopatra and their son to travel to Rome, and Cleopatra accepted.
Nice. Yeah. So many sources say that Cleopatra took her brother husband with her to Rome. So I don't know who was ruling Egypt at this time in their stead. It was when someone Cleopatra trusted to not revolt and take over while they were gone. Or maybe she figured that since she had Caesar wrapped around her finger, or like since she was with him and he was one of the most powerful men in the world at the time, that no one would dare cross her.
But either way, she went to Rome with her brother and her son. Wow. And again, like in case you forgot, Caesar is still married at this time to a woman in Calpurnia. So when Kelly Patrick came to Rome, she didn't actually stay with Caesar directly, but instead she stayed in one of his luxurious villas. Wow. Now despite though. How did she even get the message? How are they doing mail from Rome? I don't know. I don't know if people crazy.
I don't think people have invented, I guess, through the Mediterranean. It's not that far, I suppose, from Italy to Egypt. Yeah. Through boat maybe, because you don't have to go like all the way around Africa, you could just go through the Mediterranean. So maybe it's not as difficult as we think, but still probably would take a while.
Now despite the fact that Rome at this time had very strict bigamy laws and the fact that they were kept apart in different houses, Caesar and Cleopatra were very late, apparently very open about the fact that they were lovers. Caesar granted her the highest honors and awards. He even had a gold plated statue of her be placed in the temple of Venus. Jedidricks, his supposed ancestor. And Caesar at this time even tried to have a law passed that would allow a man to take many
wives. And many believe he tried to get that law passed so he could marry Cleopatra. But for some reasons, I don't think he was able to succeed. I think in part because he wasn't yet fully the political dictator. He was a dictator in some ways, but he still had to, like, get some things past the Senate because the Senate still existed. And he was also very unfavorable among amongst pretty much
everybody else. And also because Caesar wasn't really around at this point in time to campaign all that heavily for his idea, because he wasn't really in Rome all that much. Not just because he was with Cleopatra, but because he was actually fighting another war. At this point in time. Pompey's sons had risen up and joined a resistance against Caesar and retaliation for their father's death, even though Caesar wasn't really the one at fault. But whatever.
And so Caesar had to go to Spain and then Portugal to lead armies against them during pretty much all of 45 BC. And during this time, Caesar adopted his great nephew Augustus, and Caesar named him as his heir. Wow. And so it's like July and August, Yeah. And during this time, when Caesar was off fighting, it was really that Cleopatra and her son went back to Egypt, but then returned to Rome when he did, like when the fighting was over, he came back.
So by 44 BC, Caesar had defeated his enemies abroad, the sons of Pompey, and declared himself as a complete dictator of Rome. However, because of this, he created many enemies for himself domestically. People didn't like that. No, according to Plutarch, a Greek philosopher who was alive during the 1st century, a seer had. Attacked Heaven's Bee. Yeah, another Hunger Games. We just talked about them last week as well. I think that was last week or was that the week before, 2
weeks ago? That was two weeks. It was a trivia question, but yeah. Anyway, so a seer had apparently warned Caesar that he would be harmed on the Eyes of March, which basically means the middle of the month, which was the 15th. And Yep, well, March 15th, 44 BC came and it did not start great. First, Caesar and his wife Caperna had a bad dream. I don't really know about Cleopatra. If she had a bad dream, she might have.
And then on his way to the theater of Pompey for a Senate meeting, Caesar passed the same seer who had given him that ominous fortune and joked essentially like, well, the Eyes of March have come and like nothing's happened. And the C replied, I, they have come, but they are not gone. And after that, Caesar entered the Senate meeting where he was then stabbed 23 times. What is this common? Last words, yes I would say so, but. It's in the it's in the Shakespeare play, yeah.
And most people know this but it. Just so happened. But yeah. Just happens if you read it or not in school. I did. If you haven't read it, you probably wouldn't know. I was made to read Julius Caesar, but I didn't have to read the Cleopatra and Mark Antony 1. Same. Well, we're both a Mr. Cordamont, right? Yeah, what now? I well, I read Cleopatra and Mark Antony in college, so we just like skipped over all of this, I think in my school district, but I'm not sure.
Maybe we did. Interesting. Did you read no Shakespeare in high school or just like Roman and Juliet? Oh, no, We read Shakespeare in high school, but we read, yeah, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet and Macbeth. Interesting, for some reason in my high school we only did Robbie and Juliet and Julius Caesar oddly. We also did 12th night in my grade. We never had. To do 12th, we also did A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Anyway, yeah, so he just got stabbed. 23 times and this is the famous line where he's like E2 brute, right? Yeah, so his last words were like E2 brute or translated to even you, my boy, or even you, Brutus, to a politician named Marcus Brutus, who had been who had once been Caesar's close friend. Damn, yeah. That sucks. He's dead. It was over like. They just didn't like that he was the dictator. Like what? Yeah, so they didn't like that he was dictator, and some people
also believe that. They didn't like that he was a bigamist with Cleopatra also. But for some reason they were like, yeah, let's just stab him. And they did. What? OK this might be ignorant of me, but why did they care? Like I it just doesn't seem to me like they had that strict morals back then. Like I'm surprised that they actually were very against that. Or is that just ignorant of me? I think they had some codes of conduct. Well, I guess this is Rome, I
guess. Yeah, I guess this is Rome, not Egypt, where they were doing the sibling. Yeah. But they didn't like that he was like dictator. And he there's also other stuff where he really kind of had a power trip and they didn't like that as well. So they're like, we have to get rid of him. OK, Yeah. Do you think he was in the wrong or do you think they should have done that? Like people say like, oh, he was like a real dictator, but like everybody else was like a real
dictator. So I think no matter who was in that position, they would probably act the same. So I really don't think they were in the right. And even. And even the people of Rome were upset that Caesar had been killed. And they were calling for the assassins to be, you know, killed. And so the assassins had to leave. And it was just this whole thing. So a lot of people looked down on Caesar's assassination. That's good. Yeah. I guess.
Yeah. And anyway, so I think most people know the story of Julius Caesar for the most part. I mean, again, it's not like fully common knowledge, but what people might not have known was that Cleopatra was in Rome at the time of Caesar's assassination. She was there with him. And yeah. And so afterward, after he'd been killed, she actually stuck around between a month to a couple months. Historians don't really know for certain to try and get their son Caesarean named as Caesar's heir.
But it's pretty much a futile fight 'cause even though Cleopatra had some support and one of them was Mark Antony actually, which I'll get into when I cover her and Mark Antony, most people supported 18 year old Augustus, Caesar's grand nephew as his heir, as was stipulated in his will. So, you know, so it wasn't going to go to Caesarean. Yeah, and he adopted Augustus, right?
Yeah, he had adopted Augustus and had even named him as his heir, so you can't really fight what he had written in his will. And he didn't have, he had a daughter, but she died, so he didn't have any. Yeah. So he had a daughter, but she's been dead for like years at this point. Like almost a decade, if not more. So did he not have any kids with Calpurnia? No, he had no other children with like California or his other wife.
Also, he might have had a couple other illegitimate kids with all the other women he was sleeping with like before, but nobody knows. Wow. Yeah. And side note, also stipulated in his will was that every Roman citizen received a substantial stipend and that his gardens were given back to the city of Rome. And I thought that was nice, so I included that. That is really nice, yeah. Every citizen got some money from Yeah.
Wow, I know. And I think that also endeared the Roman citizens to Caesar, and so that's why they also looked down upon his assassination. My gosh, that's amazing. I know. And so because Cleopatra wasn't able to name their son as Air, she was forced to flee back to Egypt with her two year old son in tow. And there's also a rumor at this time. I'm not really sure how credible because it's named in some sources but not in others.
It was believed that Cleopatra had apparently been pregnant again with Caesar's child at this time. And some Romans, namely that Cicero man that I named before who really hated her, was nervous about it because while Cesarean had no claim to being Caesar's heir, like absolutely no claim, the second child had a better chance because he was conceived on Roman soil. And that kind of changed some things. But that would be like an infant. I know so, but still.
But unfortunately it was all for not because the stress of his assassination apparently caused her to miscarry, man. Yeah. And I'm not going to go into too much detail of what happens afterward in this story because I want to save it for Mark Antony and Cleopatra episode, which again, I hope to do next time. I'm hope. Sorry for stretching it out.
Don't keep me, you guys. But I will add that shortly after returning back to Egypt, Ptolemy the 14th, Cleopatra's brother husband at this time died of poisoning and many suspect it was done by Cleopatra or by on her behalf like by her. Orders. And after his death, she then made her son Caesarean her Co Regent of Egypt, even though he was like two or three at the time. But she doesn't have to marry him, right? Yeah, she's not to marry her son. No. OK.
Good, but that's. I mean, now she's basically the only ruler. Yeah. And the other ruler is her son, who she can, like, raise to basically treat her as the queen, you know? And Cleopatra also started the construction of the Caesarean Temple in Alexandria, which was dedicated to Caesar. Wow. That's pretty much it for Cleopatra and Caesar. Sad, really dramatic ending. I know with an assassination. Probably the most dramatic we've
heard. I mean we have had some end in death but not being stabbed 23. 9 So that's. That was really interesting. Oh my gosh, Kate, thanks for doing all that research. I had a lot of fun doing it. I hope you guys enjoyed it as well. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I should have known this stuff before, but I appreciate how you told it in such a concise way. And to be honest, if like you just like laid out all the stuff that I would have been
interested in in history class. I know like why, why in school back in the day? Why wasn't it this fun? I just think they focus, get it, they. Focus way too much on like dates and just things that you have to. Memorize like I didn't include any of like the battles or when those happened, anything like that. So that's kind of what makes I'm, I'm a history major and I loved history in high school and
even college. But yeah, both of history was just memorizing dates, and that's not the fun part of it, you know? Yeah, I mean, history is all just people, you know? Yeah, me and you guys. And I feel like that's what's interesting is when you can like, think of it, I think Kelly said it on the podcast one time. Like we want history to be like a tabloid story or gossip. Yeah, and this during its time was definitely a tabloid story. Gossip 100%. Talking about them on the barge
and they're both married. Yeah, they had like a kid out of wedlock. So crazy. Well Kate, you are going to be in the driver's seat again next week on the Patreon. Can you give us a hint about who you are covering? Yes, so again, like I said, I won't be doing Mark Antonine's Cleopatra next. Sorry about that. But I have a extra special episode that I think will be really fun and I think you guys
will enjoy. I am covering a pop star and a relationship she had with a costar on ATV show they were on together. Wow. Like, that could be a couple people, yeah. I know so. So different from the. Very different. Way breaking it to modern times. I like that about this show though. I hope people do too. I think it's interesting. Like I, I feel like there are some podcasts with like similar concepts, but usually they stick in one lane.
But yeah, but like you said, Mel, like we're all just people. And it's funny, like even 2000 years ago people were doing some of the same things. Yeah, I mean some, some things very different. But. But some things never. Change. So it's like, reassuring. Yeah, in a weird way. I know there's like, weirdly some similar things. Like I feel like that's not the first time that one of you has said. But then she was pregnant and I gasped. I don't know who else someone
else might have been. I don't even just like a couple weeks ago when you mentioned like Lindsey Buckingham's girlfriend got pregnant like. Oh, maybe as old as time. Mary Shelley, She got pregnant, right? Oh yeah, from an. Affair. Yeah. Gosh, I forgot about that. Well, thank you guys for listening. Thank you for listening. And thank you, Kate. We're excited for next weeks episode. Me too. Do you want? Do you want to sign off? Kate, yes, see you next week.
No. Wait, what do we usually say? I usually use coffee whenever Kelly says. Oh, and Oh yeah, and we'll get back together next week. Bye. Is your heart filled with pain? Shall I come back again? Tell me, dear heart you Lord.