Internalized Homophobia: why everyone has it!

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Today we're talking about internalized homophobia. What is it and how does it affect both the queer community but also people outside of it. Later on we have our What Did You Learn This Weeks as well. One is about palm oil and the country Mexico. A whole country. Or as we will learn Mexico. Ah, si. Controversial. Señor. Not señora. Who knows?

Actually, it's been interesting. Part of my What Did You Learn This Week comes from, like I'm in a Spanish class right now. And there has been a lot of, well, no, whatever. It's not a brag. It's just me telling about my life, Greg. But part of the conversation around like, you know, gendered words and how like they.

The conversation even in Spanish has been like, do we change these terms? Like there's been a pushback to like also try and find like gender neutral terms for certain words. But my teachers told me how like there is a. a literal body that examines the spanish language and like decides are we going to say this like presidente

president yeah but it was like when the president of one country was a female she started saying presidenta and then they were like officially we've decided you can't do that also like if there's like 48 000 women and one man

You say... Oh, yeah, you still say the, like, masculine version of, like... Like, I mean... amigos yeah my friends if there's only one man like a feminist like anyway i think it's interesting and there's like one ally man it's like oh mis amigos are here whereas like if that man left it'd be mis amigos Anyway, that's a little rough.

that like Spanish body could get together and like maybe be like, if visually you can tell there's more women. Well, that's when the terms, I think one of the terms was like amigues is like they've been trying to feel like, is there another term that can be like for everyone? But there's been a lot of conversation around that. Obviously, I'm not part of those conversations. I'm just hearing this through. But this is how you got like the angry alt-right. You can't even speak.

Spanish the way we used to? Flipping tables. It's like, do you even know Spanish? Hola. Yeah. Okay. I don't even know why I yelled about that. Okay. So, yeah, let's get into it. Okay. Okay, so for those who have been listening to the podcast recently, we have a new format and it's... absolutely throwing us into chaos. Yeah.

So if you heard what we learned this week, that was just a Spanish word for getting to study time. Anyway, today we're talking about internalized homophobia. I know we've already said that. The way you said even the intro, it's like so chipper. We're going to chat about, we're going to be talking about how we

hate ourselves no i've been thinking about obviously you know our podcast many times is super light-hearted and i think that's something that's nice about it even when we take on some like more intense topics it's nice to be able to laugh at it especially when we are kind of the inside of that so i feel like you want to laugh at this no but i guess i want to like start the conversation by being like of course we're always trying to be as

accepting and open as possible but i want to also be able to have fun and because we're gay i feel like at least this one we can like play with the idea of this but of course this is a serious conversation, a real problem in both the queer community. I can't stop laughing. I don't know why.

And so we're going to be talking about what is internalized homophobia. And I think this is relevant to everyone, whether you're straight, gay. It really is relevant to straight men. who have been calling in a lot and we love you and we see you totally there's a lot of straight guys being like

Hey, I'm one of your straight listeners. I'm like, wow, it's like the only people who've called in. I feel like it's that and Australians. People like getting like, you know, like domed and shamed. Like it's like Australians in streamer. Like, yeah, they're like hate listening.

Kidding, we love straight guys, but they're a huge part of internalized homophobia. Well, I think everyone is affected by it, right? In the same way that everyone's affected by sexism, a lot of people are affected by racism, everyone's affected by... Homophobia, and I think internalized homophobia, is often used as a term for queer person and their reflection of society back onto themselves. So in that sense, I think its official definition is not...

like if a straight man's experiencing something like this, it's just homophobia, unless they actually are like repressing a gay part of themselves. Well, I don't know. I feel like internalized homophobia is a bad, it's a bad term. It should be like internalized.

feminine phobia because that's when it relates to straight guys yeah one of the studies that i was going to bring up like there's a lot of conversation around definitions sorry if you're internalized feminine phobia if you're identifying as a man

Right? Because I'm like, can women have internalized... Can women hate their... femininity of course i just like went cross-eyed and passed out i was like okay is they obviously can't but now i'm like damn what's that called and like it was making up internal sexism internalized so that's one of the terms that was used for this as an alternative because first of all even phobia is often considered a misnomer a misnomer for homophobia like it's not a fear it's actually a prejudice

And so one of the alternate terms for internalized homophobia has become internalized heterosexism, which is like sexism is obviously prejudiced against women and heterosexism is against.

gay people, queer people, people who are not heterosexual. But so much of this is about sexism. It's about hating the feminine aspects of yourself. I think we can have a conversation around

Like, that, of course, is true. But there's multiple elements, right? Like, you can have internalized sexism as well as feel prejudiced for being outside of the norm sexually. Like being a gay man who's... in men some of that may not be because of sexism some of that self-hate can just because like you feel ostracized from society yes so in terms of like definitions a lot of it does come down to like self afflicted

homophobic, like society's homophobic views being self-reflected back onto you as a queer person. Most of the studies I found are like on lesbian gay and bi people like they often will say explicitly on lgb yeah wait i found that too i think oh i think it's a transness is actually oh wow in this sorry

um my study was about masculinity and how it released homo homo what is this called internalized homophobia i know i keep saying like there's so many like homo words in my studies and like on my doc that i'm just like going cross-eyed me like homo homo homo

But it was saying how, like, I'll get to the point of mine, which is essentially that gay men who act more masculine, according to the study, have more internalized homophobia. But they were, like, trans people who, like, say you are... like born, like being like with the sex of a woman, but you are trans. So you are like a trans man. Yeah. They're, um,

taking up of masculine ideals makes them feel happier inside. Whereas taking up of masculine ideals when you're a gay man, according to the study, makes you feel more depressed. So that's why like they were taking the T out of the LGB in this study. Yes, it is. It is a different perspective. Yeah. The only thing I'd want to sort of not correct, but have a like, obviously I don't know your study is, but it's like, I think. being masculine as a gay man can be.

toxic but there are of course many gay men who would naturally maybe feel empowered by being masculine and it's the question of my study because it's interesting but it's just a study of course there are straight men who are masculine and some are feminine there are gay men some are

It's understanding. And what this conversation about internalized homophobia is going to touch on is it's the people who have that who are projecting masculine ideals and norms that end up often having these problems. But I'm sure there are many. gay men who naturally are like oh i just like feel empowered by being more masculine and it's not because of self-hatred yeah this study was leaving room for that yes but this study was saying if

Internalized homophobia is a complicated thing that you don't just necessarily accept in yourself or are just like, I have it. Their point was, if you are someone. Okay, I'll explain the studies. 489 Australian gay men. Red flag. Can't think of a more fucked up group. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm absolutely kidding. I need to go on an Australia pilgrimage. Just be like, Namaste. I love you all. I'm just going to go to Australia, tan, get dreads, do yoga, come back.

love them and everyone's just gonna be like yeah but we hate you now okay so 489 self-identified australian gay man 18 to 72 years old online survey and what they did would ask them questions like does it bother you when you have to ask for help? And then on a scale of one to five, you'd answer the seeming sort of like takeaway from a question like that would be like, if you have an issue asking for help,

you are quote unquote trying to be more masculine. Okay. So they're asking a bunch of questions that like, according to psychology, relate to how you feel about masculinity. Okay. And then they're finding. They're using a bunch of other questions that are talking about internalized homophobia and the way you feel about it. And they found that people who are...

presenting as more masculine have higher rates of internalized homophobia. They have more feelings of hatred towards the fact that they are gay and towards other gay people. So their point was not saying that of course there are.

as you said, masculine gay men who don't have, but they're like, if we're trying to figure out who has it, who doesn't, cause it's like not something that people necessarily like, like I would love if someone could just like read me to felt and be like, you have it at this measure so I can like work on it. They're like, if you are a masculine,

in presenting gay man, you are more likely needing to check your internalized homophobia, which I think is really interesting because it's like, I think as gay people, because of all the things we're going to get into.

masculinity is idealized and maybe you look at masculine gay men like me last week just like ripping the shit out of a bunch of like topless roided up like lawyer bankers gay banker white bankers from toronto wait what are you talking about what do you mean last week last week i made a joke about how like when you go to like gay male parties like you literally talk to them and i'm like why are you a football player steroided gay man who is like a lawyer on bay street who's white

And like you are the most masculine archetype of high school, but you're gay. Right. I was kind of ripping on that, like those people. But it's like, actually, there's another way to frame it, which is like, they might be struggling the most. Fair. Which I think is interesting because I look at those people and I'm like... oh my god they're so i have like oh my god it's like is it in

this is we're going to get into it like is it internalized homophobia like it could be a version of it but i have some sort of like animosity towards them whereas if like according to the study it's like oh they actually might be struggling the most with their homosexuality it gives you a little bit more like compassion like when you look the circuit case it's like oh you know what i mean whereas usually when you look at like really masculine white

strong men it's easy to be like judging them yeah that's all that this study made me like that's so interesting yeah and it is compassion it is worth thinking about i think because we live like personally in a very

a circle surrounded by like many gay men we're in a bubble and as a result we kind of do forget that many people actually do experience homophobia explicitly right like of course we experience it implicitly in the world but like in our day-to-day life like i don't experience a lot of homophobia

I live in Toronto, a super progressive city. We go to gay bars. We're surrounded by queer people all the time. What I'm trying to say... I was on the subway and that guy was like, yo, why are you looking at me, faggot? And I was like, oh, and I kind of laughed because he looked...

like not to like judge him remember he had like gorgeous like blue dyed hair and he looked and it just came out of nowhere it was wild I always think about that I'm like so it can like randomly happen so think of things like that I think it's a good reminder to think that some people's internalized

homophobia and projection of toxic masculinity is obviously a defense mechanism to actually protect themselves. Even though that may not always be the case, it obviously bleeds into like being actually in the queer community or around gay people and it... It's still there. And that's when you're like, you don't need to put this front up. But I think a lot of people outside of like Toronto in this world are actually oppressed.

even as gay men. Wait, and so they're acting more masculine to protect them? As a protective tool, right? Like, so I think that's, yeah, a worth thinking, like a lot of people live in fear. And I think that like...

There's an entire category of stress called minority stressor, which is related to internalized homophobia. That's like if you're a minority in any way, you have like different kinds of stress. So this says like stress theory posits that stressors.

are any factors or conditions that lead to change and require adaptation by individuals minority stressors strain individuals who are in a disadvantaged social position because they require adaptation to an inhospitable social environment such as lgb person's head

heterosexual social environment. What? I went cross-eyed. That's okay. Sorry, that was just a lot of random words. All to say that simply being... a queer person is simply being a minority so whether that's because you're in a space where you're like a gender minority or you're a racial minority you will experience literal stress because of that that people

who are in quote unquote the norm or the majority don't have. And these things are often like measurable in studies. Like there are literal stressors that your body faces by being in an environment where you are a minority. Okay, I see. So it's like...

Okay, so being K is hard. It is, but I think going back to my point, we live in a bubble where it's obviously... inside of that bubble, it's very easy to just have fun and be like, you can be free. You can be yourself. You don't have to judge yourself. We are in Toronto. So I think our bubble is that.

white gay men experience an extreme amount of privilege. I think that's like another aspect where it's like hard to talk about these studies and talk about the world because like in Toronto, for example, like we're such a, like there's so many new immigrants. so many other issues that I'm like and there's obviously a lot of queer people who are like people of color who experience a lot of issues here but like it's not like I'm thinking about white gay men's

homophobia. And they're like suffering. When I think of all the issues in Toronto that I'm like trying to figure out how to help. Yes. So it's like, I think, but then I'm like the worldwide. I think that's where you project the judgment on that category. Yeah.

And I'm just playing devil's advocate only to be like, of course, we should also have sympathy because that usually comes from somewhere. And I mean, even straight men have to face this pressure to be masculine. Like, I'm like... This study was so interesting because they're obviously like any science study. They like have to write all the information before they do the study. And it was like full of such cool.

links to other studies but it's just like masculinity is so messed up like AOC is on this like she's so like everyone's always like talking about how men are struggling and AOC is like the person who I'm always like, she's tackling it from the way that like science and psychology is like, yeah, it's because of masculinity. I actually haven't like, I feel like she's kind of been.

Quiet lately. Although I don't use Twitter anymore. And I'm just like, is that why I don't hear about her that much? I hope to God she's not just on Twitter. No, I know that's not true. But I feel like I used to. Oh, maybe, you know, people come in waves in terms of like. Oh, I hope she's just like ramping her ass.

up to be president my friends isn't there like an age minimum that well i don't know because right now it's like 90 plus and that's only allowed you have to be like 40 or something i don't know but so it's like hopefully she will in chile it was 35 because i remember their new president was like 37. and I love him. Okay, so, like...

Men, like in the Western heteronormative context, it's just so Western. It's like, God damn British in your colonization. If only you realized how weak you are. I didn't try and take over the world. Women are quote unquote expected to be passive, emotive, and sensitive.

to mental, whilst men are supposed to be stoic, brave, and aggressive. That's the stereotype of like Western heteronormative context of like gender. And it's like even just those words, like it's like when we learn about mental health, it's like stoic, brave, and aggressive. It's like you're going to struggle. Yeah. And so then it's like it's like.

it's an act. And it's also like, those are the bad ones, like passive emotive and sentimental. Like those are the ones that like psychology is like, those aspects are like what make you feel less depressed. Anyways, I think it's worth.

mentioning that things are not inherently good or bad it's the inauthenticity of them right like i think being brave being masculine being these terms when they're fake is when it's toxic but of course it's like i think this is the harder conversation to have because it's like well being masculine inherently isn't a bad trait it's just that it gets like almost weaponized well okay let me continue because it's like

the heteronormative Western context polarizes these ideas between masculinity and femininity. So no, it's like all those things mixed is good. You know what I mean? That's what, like, if you keep going. Well, we can accept that, like, those traits are good in all different ways.

Is that what you mean? No, I'm saying, like, obviously, women aren't just passive, emotive, and sentimental. That's false. And men aren't just stoic, brave, and aggressive. Those are all... If you... polarize those two they're not good although my personal opinion is like i'd rather be feminine one from a mental health perspective maybe i'm exaggerating whatever but it's like the point is that that's not true there's like no women are also stoic brave underground. Of course. But they...

the point is that society forces this polarization. And then what it does is it creates like maladaptive behaviors in men, straight men and gay men to overcompensate. And they fear like the feelings of inferiority. And when essentially if you fear femininity, what ends up happening is that they're like the fear of femininity leads to increased competition, increased depression. And what I found so interesting is that. They really focused on this. It creates a fear of taking risks in men.

A fear of femininity creates a fear of taking risks in men because they're scared of their femininity showing. I see. I was like, that is so interesting. I'm in an art class. I'm in a Spanish class. all full of women. And I'm like, I think men are scared to do things that could be perceived as feminine. And like, I'm not even saying taking a Spanish class is perceived as feminine, but there's a, there's a risk there. You have to go, you have to.

you have to be vulnerable like it's actually so interesting there's like three men in my spanish class and it's like i look at them and they get like called they have to be subservient to the teacher the teacher's like how do you say that and they kind of stumble and they get it wrong and they blush and it's like that they're reacting differently to the mistake than the women are like they're they're like

When I was reading this study, because it was right before class, I was like, that man is, like, blushing. Right. Because he said, like, como esta instead of estas. And he's probably... been taught not he but just in general men are are you saying men are taught well it's a mistake it's like it's like needing help yeah and it's like kind of things are feminine qualities and a motive about like being like and vulnerable and vulnerable and it's like

A lot of issues with men that we have talked about a lot on this podcast, especially like men who retire. It's like they deteriorate because they're not like going out and like getting new hobbies and like. they're, they're scared. And it's like, so interesting because it's like, this study is saying it's like, that fear is maybe of being perceived as feminine or weak. Like they're, and I was like, that like resonates for me. Like there's something that I feel so.

Happy that I got to be a gay man because I have accepted this feminine part of me that I like do all these crazy things I take a bunch of risks because I'm like when I show up no one no well maybe they're like gay and i'm like yeah like there's something that like there's a power in that that like you can i think men would be helpful for men to understand like getting in touch with their femininity actually will make them

less fearful. And fear is like a weirdly like almost feminine trait. Like it's almost like paradoxical in some way. I, yeah, I don't, I don't agree with that last part. That fear is a feminine trait. Sorry. I'm saying they're like, I just feel like men don't want to be perceived as people who are fearful.

yeah sorry matt these men who are masculine sure i'm just like it's interesting it's like no you're actually your fear is your fear of femininity yes yeah i'm just like that's interesting oh yeah yeah like i'm saying like that's interesting i don't know why you lost me at the end but just being like

Like, I don't know why I'm harping on this and maybe let's just move on. But it's like, oh, you're scared. Like being scared is probably something they're like, no, I'm not scared. I'm not scared. It's like you are scared of being feminine. That word scared is in that statement. It's like. You know what I mean? There's a bravery. There's a masculinity. There's a stoicness in accepting your femininity because it's like the ultimate.

conquer fear i think and this is going to be a generalization as well but obviously certain domains of like intellectual pursuit are considered feminine and i think in a way you know like many like men who go into academia like and not into like sport or like physical or aggressive spaces are considered more feminine but in my

personal experience this is not based on study this is anecdotal like when i think of like my male professors in general of course there's like toxically masculine ones but i feel like academic men have come to terms and are maybe more comfortable and okay having feminine attributes. Yeah, yeah. Same as gay men.

But now we can go back to the internalized homophobia because the gay men thing is wild. This reminds me a lot of like the in-group, out-group conversation we had the other week. Yeah. When we talked about even... what was our last episode on a diverse neurodivergence where it's like, okay, there's like a conversation that the whole world can have. And in that stance, I'm like, no, gay men are oppressed in this world.

But then when we come into the inner conversation, I'm like, yeah, but gay men are so privileged. So let's like acknowledge that. And that's where our maybe sometimes judgment of internalized homophobia comes. Does that make sense to you? Yeah.

On the larger scale, I'm like, there are lots of issues. And now we're going to like, because you're like, yeah. And then I start talking about gay men and I'm like, okay. But then now I'm like, is that internalized homophobia? Okay. Do you think you have like, how bad is our internalized homophobia?

Yeah, it's there for sure. Sometimes I wonder for myself if like, not that I am completely straight passing but i grew up more straight passing than some than me and this little homo over here wow and you're immediately canceled press that button press that button which one is canceled um sorry

I don't think I was straight passing because I was constantly called gay in high school. No, you're straight passing, but then you were like, know what I'm going to do? Make musical theater my whole personality. And then it's sort of like, okay. But I wonder... If internalized homophobia, it's like chicken or egg. Is it harder to break free from that when you can mask yourself? No, like pun intended, like M-A-S-K or M-A-S-C. Put that on a shirt and smoke it. Mask for mask.

versus if you are innately exuberant and feminine and outgoing as a man, you might just have to accept. that and you're like no longer trying to hide I'm not sure this is just no this is so I know for sure I have internalized homophobia I mean I think most I think every gay man does. Yes. I think you every gay man has internalized homophobia and every man has internalized heterosexism and fear of femininity. And I think that's just because and what these studies are saying.

Again, if you're in a Western environment and a heteronormative context, which everyone in Canada, certainly Australia and America. Wow. If I'm meaner to Australia than America, it's like, you know, I'm so sorry.

You make fun of the people who you can. You guys are fine. Have these issues. And I think that there's a scale of it. But I think... One thing that is interesting, again, going back to the study, is that feminine acting gay men will receive, and it does say in the study, receive the most hate. And the most like what you were saying, like minority stress. And they are essentially having like harder lives in general. But.

they might not have as much internalized homophobia, which is what this study is talking about, which is the hatred of yourself and being gay, the hatred of the feminine aspects and the fear of the feminine aspects of yourself. It causes you to become, quote, unquote, straight acting become anti-infeminate, anti-effeminate. And that can be such a huge issue because it's like a little bit more hidden maybe than like the people who...

are experiencing like vitriolic homophobia. Like these are acts that they're having to deal with. Whereas internalized homophobia, you might go your whole life without ever addressing it. Totally. Because you don't have to. Yes. It's difficult to know. I think even, even, I think like you said,

said every gay man has internalized homophobia but of course there's scales um i have two things to say one i'm going to bring up my study which has like three it was really interesting it looked at like what is internalized homophobia because that's like a big conversation like what is what is actually causing it and then what does it do to a person who has it but um

what was i gonna say one thing one thing like my study here's an example of was like do you dislike drag race no yeah it was one of the questions like are you a gay man i was like i'm like becoming the gay guy that i'm like i fucking hate drag race but i

swear it's because it's repetitive like i'm like i know i was built made me think like if i was on the study i would have been like i would have put a three but it's like damn i would have been like yeah i was like is like i literally after was like someone like asked me about drag race i was like love it Because I was like, I don't, like, I'm like, I am sick of it, but I'm like, I don't want, like, it was kind of like made me question, like, why am I hating Drag Race?

But anyways, it just makes you think like there are actually gay men who I think from day one have had a hard time with like a show that... prides of femininity yes and yeah like that almost every cast member isn't it was just like so i read the surveys and when i saw that question i was like that's an amazing question like do you like drag race like in a in a literal study

Do you think one of us has more internalized homophobia, or it's just in different ways? Okay, another thing this study... Well, I really like this study. Okay, so I just want to say this.

Having internalized homophobia, they said, does lead to intense anxiety and body shaming and body dysmorphia. Okay. So the direct correlation to that is interesting because I think people go to the gym. Hello, gay men. It's like... definitely yeah um like the going to the gym part is about building your body and i sometimes think about like how interesting it is that all sort of like the jocks in my high school are like truly just like living the quintessential like

like drink beer every night like have their like yeah their dad gave them a job and they don't they look and all the people who ended up gay are absolutely jacked like it's just like it's like i can i just imagine all those like jocks going their phone being like holy shit like every little like sort of like twink guy i made fun of could like kick the shit out of me now so there's like something like really interesting there that i was like whoa it's like

It's gay men trying like trying to deal with their internalized homophobia through making their bodies seem masculine. But I think that they were like, it is an ebb and flow. Like you can have. internalized homophobia that pulsates goes away pulsates goes away they said with age it usually gets better hashtag it gets better like you decrease your internalized homophobia as a gay man usually if you come out with age and their main way they say to con

Bad is exposure to literally it's that effeminate people. So whether that's hanging out with more women or hanging out with more effeminate gay men, that's where my judgment of some. masculine gay men comes from when you look at them and you're like, you're all hanging out with each other. There's no women even in the mix here. Like there's an obsession with masculinity that I think is like, they're like,

The antidote to internalized homophobia is truly hanging out with women and gay men who are effeminate and can accept themselves. That's what their discussion answer was. Well, I think that's also why just like even being around people who are like...

non-binary, trans, like challenging these ideas of what does it even mean to be a specific gender is interesting. It opens your eyes to being like...

okay, like we can deconstruct gender and then that makes it easier, I think, to deconstruct masculinity. But it's difficult at the same time because these subgroups, like the queer community in general has... so many subgroups that and that's amazing in a lot of ways like it's really cool that we can celebrate we have like bears and twinks and all these different things and like that's nice to be like there's like

everyone's sexually interested in a certain type of person. Um, they got, they, they, this study also went in a bit on the mirror. I'm obsessed. Well, because it was so specific. It was obviously done by like gay men. It was like, so, so they went in a bit on the bear community. They think that the bear community, the way it presents itself could be a problematic aspect of internalized homophobia, which I was just like, that's an intense thing to say. But I think it's important to always say.

can be right like because for example like there are just people who are naturally whether it's their lifestyle or their genetics or whatever it is like naturally going to be a bear because like

Even when you like have chest hair, like if you're like, if you have no chest hair, you're like not really called a bear. Do you know what I mean? A bear is like a hairy man or whatever. So like some of this is just like naturally what you are. And it's trying to like decipher. I think this is why these kinds of studies are. interesting but also it's such a challenge because how do you parse apart

were you quote unquote naturally born this way or are you pretty beautiful in my way because God makes no mister truck. Okay. Wow. Gaga solved internalized homophobia really didn't. Okay. But my answer to your question about.

let's talk about who has more internalized homophobia is that it goes in and out and that like for example you could have a time in your life where you're spending more time with gay men only who are masculine and then you're gonna have more internalized homophobia then all of a sudden you get a job

and you're hanging out with women and you're hanging out with more effeminate gay men and your personality changes and you have less internal they were like you it will change there's the macro the exo which is society the mezzo which is your greater community the micro which is your cross

So I don't think it's finite. Yeah. And I'm sure it manifests different for everyone. So that for some people, it might manifest in sculpting their body to look hyper masculine. And some people might express in the way they actually treat people. or act to people. We may have totally different versions of internalized homophobia. Okay, so in this moment...

as in like this week or this, who do you think has more internalized homophobia? That's what I mean. I would say like in the past, for sure, you had more. I grew up in a religious household. I think that also plays a role. A what? A religious household. Because you're like reminded that to be gay is also a literal sin. And you have like a masculine dad and like a feminine mom. Sure. Yeah. Like prototypical roles. It's a very heteronormative family. Yeah. And I grew up in a smaller place.

small town literally like intellectual toronto cbc parents like i just like innately the answer would be obvious but i think now it's you Yeah. Well, I was like, I'm like, I don't hang out with enough people. Period. Yeah. Like I'm like, I just feel like there was a time in my life where I was so much more surrounded by women. and like a feminine gay man. Whereas now I'm like, I'm like alone.

And I just go to the gym a lot and everyone at the gym, I'm like, well, that's not like the people like who are the right influence. So then I was kind of like, but I'm like, you also go to the gym. I don't know if it's obviously is me now, but I'm like, I'm certainly like this study made me be like, Greg. go hang out with your girlies, get off the couch, and put on your nail polish. I think the gym is a shield that people use because it's a way to appear more masculine.

But say it's for health. And of course, that's why it's difficult. It's like health is important. Like going to the gym is a good thing. In general, like I'm not saying everyone has to do it, but it's like on the surface, it's like I'm doing something not because I want to be straight. It's because I want to be healthy. It's good for my body. As you inject yourself with steroids, eat so much protein that kills you and look like a gorilla.

There's lots of people outside of that category who are trying to go to the gym. And so I think that's like one of those difficult things to parse out. It's like...

It is good for you. Like lots of people use the gym for their mental health. Lots of people use the gym to feel good, to have energy, all these things. But I think it also allows... gay men in particular because we see this like body issue where it's like um you know no fems no fats no whatever is like the phrase that gets used on like grinder and stuff um

I think it's like protective because you get to be like, I'm doing it for me, but it can also be behind your mind that you're ignoring that it's for something else. One thing that I do do, if anyone's ever like, are you mask? I'm like, that is the most fucked up question. And I blocked them.

Oh, yeah. So I always feel good doing that. I'm like, well, now I feel bad because they actually just have internalized homophobia. I think it's worth like it is a problem. lots of people don't do this but it is a problem in the gay world where like if you don't look jacked if you don't act hyper masculine you're not attractive to a certain group of people yeah and i do think that's really toxic for everyone involved especially the person that is

is internalized homophobia too. And then, yeah, exactly. But that's a really powerful way to look at it. Cause it's like, then you can be less. It's sad for the person. Yeah, it's sad for the person. It still doesn't mean that that question is appropriate and I still think it's okay for me to say that's a fucked up question and block them. Yeah, I think so too. But I do think that there's a part of me that's like...

Oh, is there another way that's like, oh, I'm so sorry you asked that question. Yeah. But that's also so condescending. I think you don't have to take responsibility for it. You can just be internally like, well, that's what you said. I have more internalized homophobia now, literally, because I have an equinox. Yes. But it's like, you go to a trainer.

yeah but that's less like i'm like i'm like no you're right do you actually think it's me like i part of me wanted to like say yeah it is me because it's like funny but and it's like there's a change but i'm actually like i don't actually know life's too complicated for me to understand like

The reasons we do things can be so hidden to us. Like there's so many more layers, right? Like, of course, toxic masculinity and internalized homophobia affects us. But so does like the need and desire to feel loved and accepted and good at things.

and successful like there's so many layers that you're like which one is it which fucked up desire is it that's driving me to do the things yeah but i know that i definitely have internalized of course and i do feel like there was a time in the past where i i like I think my study that I'm going to bring up right now is going to help us elicit a specific idea about ourselves. Okay.

Because this was like, and it is that you're gay. You hate drag race. You go to the gym. No, you go to Equinox. I hate drag race and I go to Equinox. It's like, yeah, you're fucked. You have internalized homophobia. Okay. I don't hate drag race. I'm just like, come on.

let's just like maybe make less of them or like give us a shake it up somehow yeah or I actually don't know you're right there's this has been on for a long time yeah but like if a straight man's like oh i'll be like it's a great show actually to be honest the only people i know who are obsessed with it like in a really intense way are like straight people now because it's like they're experiencing it new for the first time i'm like oh i've seen 48 000

I like look at them and my eyes go blurry and I'm like, what year are we in? Like I've seen this before. Okay. So when defining internal insomophobia, this study came out in 2018. There were three correlations. They call it three subscales that were the strongest. So subscale number one was the desire to be heterosexual. Never in a million years would I want that. Exactly. Well, maybe when you were younger.

But the weird thing is that now I'm like getting attracted to women. Okay. We'll get there when we get there. What's that called when you hate me because I might like women? Some woman. I did not ever say that. You always judge me.

Okay, but now I'm like, but now I am questioning. Is that me wanting to be homo? No, this is the same projection. It's me. When you look at gay men being internalized homophobia, it's me going like, are you trying to be so progressive that you are making yourself less gay? that's so rude this is the joke did you ever watch

Did you ever watch Broad City? You know, when she's like, Alana, you're so progressive that you're a racist. Like, it's kind of like that. No, no. I think that it's like people are forced into binaries and I was forced into the binary of being gay. And then sometimes I...

I think it's good. It's a good thing. And you're right. It is my internalized issue with it probably that projects my feeling to you. But sometimes it's like you're being so progressive. And have you ever gone to lesbian parties? It's like a lot of those girls are so hot. Fair. And that's something that this conversation has lacked, obviously, because we're two gay men.

I'd be interested to hear a lesbian's take on like lesbian masculinity and if that's internalized homophobia or not. Oh, I need to hang out with more lesbians. I'm curious about the conversation in there. Okay. Okay. So, Do you desire to be heterosexual? That's like this first one. So that's negative feelings and homophobic attitudes towards oneself as a product of social bias against sexual minorities. And the quote they use is, I feel that being gay is a shortcoming for me.

Okay. No, I absolutely think it is a 1000% of superpower. But you know what I mean? When you were young, like we all had to face that feeling. Like when I was younger, I was like, i wish i was straight i definitely was in grade seven and eight when everyone was like i was like well that sucks and definitely when i started like masturbating to gay porn i was like well that's wrong but then like as

Throughout high school, actually, this is interesting. And as soon as I came out in grade 11, I was like, it's my show. And I like you and I really would loved it. But I do think there is something there, too, which was that like. I almost loved it too much. Like it was sort of like it didn't allow me to fully address. Fair. You tried to use it as a weapon. Yes. To protect yourself. To protect myself against homophobia.

Which is, like, actually making me, like, so confused. That's the same thing when therapists are like, it was a useful tool. Yeah, it was a useful tool. Now it's like, no, Greg, you're actually straight. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay, subscale two.

reflects wait sorry answer that do you do you deep down wish you were no no not anymore no yeah but was there a time for sure yeah when i was like dealing with am i gay it was when you came out like I think once I came out was my accepting and being like, I would rather. Maybe the first year was still that like being uncertain, but I was kind of, you know, like we were dating before I even came out. Did you start by saying I'm bye?

I think probably. Yeah. Cause that's probably like the, like a bit of the, I didn't ever come out as bi. I came out as gay, but I think in my mind before I came out as gay, I was like, I like both guys and girls. I just never want to touch a girl sexually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So no, I don't feel that way now at all. Like if I had a magic wish granted, I would never wish to be straight. And again, we are to our straight listeners. We're so sorry. Oh yeah. No, it's not because I think being straight never wish to be Australian. Okay.

Subscale 2 reflects fears of coming out. Quote, if my straight friends knew about my sexual orientation, I would feel uncomfortable. What? Isn't that kind of the same as the first one? No, the first one is like, I don't want to be gay. And the second one is I'm gay, but I don't afraid of what being gay does to me in this world. Like again, no, I walk into a room. I'm like, by the way, I'm gay. So bow down. Like I do find, I'm like, I want everyone here to know I'm gay. Yeah.

But I would say as somebody... I act extra gay in new situations. Yeah, I do too because I'd rather not have to explain it. But there's still obviously as a queer person, you have to be in, if you're in a room with new people, you're like, there's a moment where people have to find out. I remember when I went on Big Brother being like, you have to like share beds with someone. And I was just like, I don't.

want to be beside a straight man before they know I'm gay unless they're explicitly like okay you're so insane like I love how you actually got to have an anecdote from like the most fucked up experiment because the first 24 hours you're in a room with 16 new people oh my god if I If I went on Big Brother, I would definitely open the door and like, isn't there like a meme of a girl like coming out of the door? I would be like,

because we're different in that way and there was another guy on my season who was more flamboyant than me and it was like everyone was up he was like wearing a dress on the first episode so you were just like mumbling like I'm gay too well I would be like trying to like let my gayness out but you're also meeting people for the first time so you're just trying I wanted to make sure I was sleeping beside a girl and then being like, meh.

I'm gay. But in the first 24 hours, people were like, we didn't know if you were gay, Mitch. Wait, you have to sleep beside people? That's weird. There's only enough, like, you share, like, a double bed with a stranger. That show's so fucked up. You're so fucked up. Like, that's crazy. No, they're allowed. to make more bets. You know what I mean? Like, Big Brother, like, good Lord. Like, I didn't even think about that.

You STI ass show. Continue. I don't know. They want you to bang. Okay. Sub scale three measured worries about stereotypes based on sexual orientation. So quote, when I think about coming out to a straight friend, I worry that he or she. Okay.

Basically what this study... Yeah. So those were forms of internalized homophobia. They were... evaluating but what they realized is only the first one the desire to be straight or not be gay was associated with mental health issues the other ones are kind of like minority stressors they're inevitable right like as a gay person or a queer person you

have to come out to people and have fear around will they treat me differently will i should i be scared will i have less opportunities but by the people who had the idea like i wish i was straight basically both at baseline and in longitudinal studies, that was like linked to mental health outcomes where the other ones weren't, which I thought was interesting. So for this study...

They recommend that the desire to be heterosexual should be what internalized homophobia is classified as. Okay. Is what they were basically studying. Well, and like mine is saying it's like... This study argues that gay men who are overly concerned with masculine norms utilize hypermasculinity as a compensatory strategy for their perceived sense of inferiority. So obviously, like you're saying, you would have to answer.

Yes to one of those three questions to have a perceived sense of inferiority around being perceived as gay. And this study is just saying that that actually causes gay men to present and hyper masculine ways. And it is. It's like I can now get that you're presenting.

hyper masculine way in theory to fear like to protect yourself to protect yourself fears but then i think that what i think this is not addressing is that there is something else in the gay community which is that people are acting hyper masculine

In order to like... Attract each other. Yes. In order to... Like it's actually not about straight people. It's like gay men have become so fucked up that they've now created that fear around... each other, perceiving each other as feminine, which is like... really actually very sad. That's the darkest part. It's like, this is where you should be safest and you still feel unsafe. And actually, as a result, you're contributing to an environment that is unsafe for queer people. Yes.

Exactly. And it's like, and you're maybe so... shrouded in this like internalized homophobia so unaware of it that you're like hurting yourself and others without an awareness which is like to me the scarier part the sadder part yeah because it's like it's not

actually I think these people's fault because they're not really like necessarily looking at it that deeply there's just like the feelings they have and the feelings they have are actually so sad because it's like they're from the hatred that you felt for being gay that you maybe still feel and like that probably

dealt with you growing up one thing I would say this is anecdotal in my own thoughts about like that group of people who are hyper masculine and looking for hyper masculinity I think part of it is a sexual fetishization of the idea of being... masculine so it's not always about who and what you are in your life it's like I want to hook up with someone who feels straight obviously there is like for many gay people and even feminine gay people like joke sometimes about like

it's a toxic thing about being like oh i want to hook up with a straight guy because there's something like hot about that and so i think because the irony to me and i don't mean this to be like overly judgmental but a lot of times you go to those like if you're an event where you're with like a lot of jacked bros who are like sexy and trying to act mask, you like talk to them and you're like, Oh, you're still so gay. You know what I mean? You're still very feminine.

In many ways, it's a projection of what they want to be and what they're looking for sexually. Well, this study that I'm going to marry is maybe being like, it is those men who are acting so gay, who are presenting the most hypermassive. because that is what it's saying. It's saying...

you might have more internalized homophobia. You might have experienced more homophobia, which has caused you to go down this route of hyper-masculinity because growing up, you maybe were like actually made fun of so deeply that you course correct it. Totally. So it's like maybe even all those mask guys that you eventually talk to are going to sound gayer than maybe the guy next who's like not presenting his mask because he's probably like, well, I didn't have to.

overcompensate as much. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's like topping and bottoming, but that's another interesting part too. They were in this study that I love because they would talk about these things were like, a part of internalized homophobia is like maybe not allowing yourself to like be a bottom, which is like interesting. Obviously there's so much more to that. There's pain. There's a lot of other things.

But another thing they said to look at is if you're someone who's not willing to be a bottom, like why is that? Is it actually out of pleasure or is it out of the fact that you are now submissing? You see it as, yeah, like a, what's the opposite of dominant? Passive. Passive. Which is literally what the heterosexist term... Oh, the term in Spanish is passivo. Yeah, yeah. And women like...

In the Western heteronormative context, women are expected to be passive. So there's something there. Again, it's not saying that it means you are struggling from it if you have it, but they were like, if you...

are obsessed with masculinity, surrounding yourself by only masculine men or just men, not willing to be a bottom. Like these... things it's like maybe you need to then go to your therapist and just be like can we talk about something because I'm not sure if this is the thing that affects me

I just want to end on a specific note. I had a bunch of other studies. I'm not going to go through them, but all to say these other studies looked at internalized homophobia and found the mental health outcomes are bad. So I think like if you find yourself in this position and we all are on the scale of it i think like even the most queer effeminate presenting person who is a gay man like has to be faced with this in society but it's worth knowing

if you're listening to this and you're like, this kind of feels like me, that the mental health outcomes are not good. Of course, there are stressors just from being gay, but they're able to parse these apart and say people who are actually, we can say, have internalized homophobia.

it's linked with like depression and anxiety and a lot of other and body dysmorphia yeah so and severe depression like bad like it's bad so it means like you can it means it's like therapy vibes it's like it means addressing it and i will say i know you said as people age it gets better but it's worse for older generations so at least it's becoming less so I think because younger and younger people can come out and

There's more acceptance around being effeminate. There's more conversations around this. And so I think generationally, hopefully that is like a positive trend towards people like actually getting to be what they want.

If you actually are internally hypermasculine, then you get to be yourself. And if you actually are internally hyperfeminine, you get to be yourself and have less of that fear around being judged for it. Knowing that you can... just like be accepted by the greater society and also by the queer community to like find people who love you for who you are. Cool. Yeah. Okay. That was, that was a big one, but I think it's super interesting. And like, obviously as to gay.

It's like a lot to talk about. I am so curious about like a lesbian's perspective or even just like a queer or non-binary trans person's perspective on this conversation, both about gay men and then about their respective communities and like how. I guess ultimately it's like toxic masculinity. How does that like weave itself into those? Or for lesbians, is there like toxic femininity? Like, I don't know. I'd be just interested to like, maybe bring someone on one day and talk about that. Okay.

we'll take a little break but and then we're about to go away for a weekend with only gay man and i was like you know what cancel okay okay they better be acting feminine i'm gonna vault in and be like we're doing our nails you're like we're dressing up as drag race yeah we're definitely watching drag race tonight and if any of them says anything masculine i'm gonna be like get out okay we'll be back

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Try it out now at Wix.com. What did we learn this week? All right, as I said, mine is about Mexico. Say it in Spanish if you're in Spanish class so well. You're in Spanish class too. Hola, como estas? Muy bien. How do I say this in Spanish? That is so embarrassing that I just said that. Yeah, you're embarrassed. You're internalized. I don't know what. Okay, let's do it in Spanish.

I can't do. We've been doing Babel. Okay. Wait, what are you trying to do? I'm trying to talk in Spanish. No, Greg, this pot's been too long. Just let me get this out. We'll talk in Spanish in the future. So I learned this from my Spanish teacher. Do you think Bad Bunny would date me? No. You don't think Bad Bunny would date me? I think he'd like you.

Like, I think he'd be like, oh, that guy's cool. That guy's like funny. And he'd be like, huh, he dresses exactly like me. It's almost like he's been studying me and wants to be me. Okay, continue. Okay.

learned this from my Spanish teacher did a bit of supplementary research but like this is a little bit of like hopefully I'm gonna get it right because I know there's some controversy so you actually think bad bunny would like me stop because I actually we're talking about the origin of the word Mexico as pronounced Mexico.

So online, I did see that there's no definitive proof, but this is what they believe. It's like an etymology of the word. Okay, cool. So in Spanish, the letter X, what's it? What is it in Spanish, Greg? Oh, it's the beer. Dos Equis. Oh, good job. Dos Equis. beer. Is it Mexican beer? The two X's. Dos X. Gotcha.

Wow. And we know how to drink that. Okay. So typically, the letter Equis is pronounced... Equis. Dos Equis. Okay. Equis, girl. What are you, British? I think it is Equis. Oh, shit. Okay. It's pronounced as... Right? Like a KS. Like if you see the word, the letter X, typically in Spanish, you pronounce it X. So like, exito, which means success. Also the name of the big grocery chain in Medellin.

Exactly. Ex-ido. Exuberante. Exuberant. Right? So, exuberante. So, why is Mexico spelled with an X if it's actually pronounced Mexico? is actually how you pronounce it. Interesting question, right? It should be M-E-J. J. So typically, like, things with a J is...

Yeah. I don't know. Like, even when they write, like, ha, ha, ha. It's like this, Mitch, listen. Mexico. No, no, no, that was French. No, no, it's, I guess, Mexico. No, no, no, Mitch, listen, it's Mexico. I hate you so much. No, but you should listen to me, you know, you need to understand. People do say.

you have a really good Spanish accent. Okay, so... Wait, wow, you're just complimenting me. The name of the place, Mexico, comes from an indigenous language which is related to like... the aztecs apparently wouldn't have been called that at the time not spanish um and what happened is in medieval spanish the letter x was different so it was closer to the sound So, Mishko is like how it would have been pronounced. Eventually, J and X began to sound the same in Spanish.

And eventually, modern Spanish ended up changing X to more of the K or X sound, like C-H or K-S. So... My teacher was saying they actually have been talking about changing the spelling of Mexico, so people pronounce it, right? Mexico. To a J. To put a J. End of that. Because it's the more indigenous accuracy.

Yeah, but that's part of the reason why you're like, when you see Mexico spelled with an X, it's because that actual pronunciation for Spanish people has changed over the years, but the X remained. Whoa. I thought that was kind of cool. But it is, like if you're there, you go like Mexico. Like you don't say Mexico, right? Yeah, like people who are Spanish would, or like in Latin America would say Mexico. Colombia.

And Oaxaca. And Ecuador. You know what I mean? Okay. Argentina. Argentina. Oh, wow. You can't do that one. Argentina. No. Argentina. Argentina. It's because you have an Argentinian teacher. Can you do that? Perro. Okay, you got it. Okay. Okay. What's your word? Is it double R? I don't know that one. Oh, shit. No, I think so. Whenever I say perro in class, I do always hold it. I'm like, oh yeah, una perro. And they're like, ha ha ha. Good for you.

You said yours is kind of depressing, right? It's extremely depressing, but it's okay. We're going to do it quick, and then we're going to get out of here. Okay, so palm oil is bad. Yeah. Um, it destroys the environment, right? Yeah. Okay. So it's unhealthy, obviously, but it's like, there's palm oil plantations that they have to like create a lot of deforestation for palm oil. The things that it's most in the store bought bread.

which i thought was interesting oh i know i like sorry this is it's not like it's the most in that but these are the most common products that you'd buy margarine chocolate frozen pizza what store-bought cookies Instant noodles.

wow deodorant and a range of other cleaning products but i was like there's something all those things okay okay okay i'm like instant noodle my favorite this is mitchell moffett my palm oil boyfriend but there's there is something interesting about the concept of like convenience and how much it links to palm oil like yeah it is one of those things where it's like and i assume like keeping things fresh long or not fresh but like not rotting longer yes but and like um

like truly like the consistency, like gooeyness and the app and preserve preservation. Yes. But it's like, it's a, if you're wanting to help, but I'm the information I'm about to tell you, which is extremely depressing. It's like, make your own bread. Make your own pizzas. You know what I mean? Is there another option? Like make your own cookies. Or buy bread that doesn't have it. How about that? Sorry. Bread's the one that I'm like, I don't really want to make my own bread. Cookies.

You definitely can like go to like maybe more like it would be about reading labels or find a brand and probably like a more expensive brand. That's fine. But I'm like just saying there are things here like that are kind of like represent. convenience in a way that it's like sometimes there's a health aspect but this is sort of now like it's a ruining the earth aspect it's not like it's in these products that everyone like like fruit and like right and like vegetables and these things that like

people love that are healthy. Like there's a weird correlation between sort of like unhealthy mass produced. things and palm oil which i was like this is like enough this could be the reason why you end up stop eating those things whereas a lot of people are telling you it's health health it's like sometimes it doesn't work for people right yeah okay so this is so sad but essentially

The palm oil plantations are usually nearby rainforest just based on how they're made. So macaque monkeys, which are endangered and so cute. Usually now we'll split their time between brain porous and palm plantations. Because of where macaque monkeys live, it's like they're just so... And their proximity to palm plantations. And they're endangered. And they found that the pesticides and chemicals on the palm plantations, if macaque monkeys spend...

They were able to tag them. And the longer they spend in the palm plantations, the more likely they're going to die before the age of one because it affects the young.

babies these chemicals in the palm plantations and it's killing them it's so sad and so they're like okay that's on top of like rainforest destruction anyway yes but it's like literally like they're they're going in because they want to eat like the the palm plants that fall like it's obvious they're like oh there's like a bunch of like food there but then it's like but then they're being exposed to the pesticides and chemicals to raise them so it's like

When you're eating your chips like cookies, you're not thinking about the macaques. Okay, so anyways, it's so sad. But they were like, okay, this obviously is like... they want people to know about this to maybe because the only way you can stop this is like maybe not consuming frozen pizzas or like whatever and trying to like allow the industry to like self-correct based on like people's purchasing power or they're like they're now trying to create like more

research around how pesticides affect young animals while also figuring out how to create palm plantations that are like smaller or more spread out in ways that the like macaque monkeys will seemingly have to spend less time in them but that's very anti-consumerism anti-capitalism like how like it's like

Obviously, it's like that's so much like goodwill. Yeah. When it comes to like you realize I've seen these like TikToks and analysis online where you take a picture of a grocery store shelf and you realize it's one or two companies that own it.

every single thing, including the things that are like the healthy version that doesn't hurt the mechanics. And then there's the regular version. It's like, they're actually both owned by this. Yeah. And it's like, you're going to, it's like, okay, no, instead of palm oil, I'll go get some dress calls banana. And it's like, okay, well, we can go into like wide dress call.

is like the worst but it is sort of like one thing that's really bad is palm oil planting like it's like this like yeah research on palm oil is like wild we know what well it's like a trifecta it's like it's bad for you yeah it's bad for the earth and it's bad for other animals like hopefully that can i want to do an episode on pop but you're it's just like we have so many things to think about and when you when you're grocery shopping you're just like this is like

I am now just like, oh, I want to look at the bread I usually get because I don't really think about it that much. But the shopping around the end, the Michael Pollan shop on the... Yes. What is it? The exterior? Yeah, that's where most of the whole... foods are that's probably where there's less palm oil i know but then we get into this conversation around like

eating disorders and not like in general but i just saw a really good tiktok that was like it's okay if you eat food that's not just from the outside maybe not talking about environmentalism but oh yeah so hung up like we're given so much information outside of the thing yeah and they were We're just like, I'm a nutritionist. Like, stop.

judge like you don't have to think about every little thing you eat in such a crazy micro detail because it's really stressful to be like yeah never take a thing off the box like getting the shelf that's in the middle of the grocery store wow i didn't realize it was that pervasive it is it's a really common

Which I think it's a very useful thing where you're like, okay, yeah, these are all whole foods. Of course, they're like less processed, less healthy, but now we're also in part of a culture that's like so obsessed with every little thing. I get it on the environmental impact end, but when it comes to health, we're told.

like constantly. That's killing you. That's killing you. That's killing you. That's killing you. And it's like everything in moderation, eat whole foods, eat healthy, but like a bag of chips here and there is not going to kill you. Stop stressing about it. Yeah. I'm like, I want to call them out. It's like BBC nutrition.

I think is the name of the podcast. It is like, okay, you're an eating disorder podcast. I'm like frustrated. Your new episode was like, how... to get skinny scientifically like literally was like called that it's like bbc nutrition and then there's bbc science focus and i'm just like

you're actually so it's just so frustrating to me when i listen to them i'm like why aren't you adding some sort of nuance around like eating disorders they're all talking about like just obsessed it's like that obsession with optimize

of every little thing. Honestly, I guess I have to question my dark chocolate before bed. We're losing all our British listeners. We are losing the British listeners, but it's like... you're he's like i and i thought that my dark chocolate before bed was okay but you're telling me it's not and they're like no and he's like oh bugger it's like that's not right an issue the problem yeah it's like okay like

Or you could be like, no, that is fine. Like, I don't know. It's so frustrating. He's like, guess I need to reconsider my dark chocolate before bed. Thanks for listening. Okay. Bye British listeners. Okay. We're done. British. Okay. Like Irish. Imagine me saying they're the same. Canceled. Thank you all so much for listening and we'll Talk to you next week. Bye. What does it mean to move at the speed of AI?

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