Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, you can go to shifting culture podcast.com
to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each Tuesday, and it would help us if you would go right now and leave a rating and review of the show. All you have to do is open your app right now and click five stars. It's pretty easy. Thank you so much. Previous guests on the show have included Jamie Winship, Jim Wilder, and Kath Livesey. You could go back listen to those episodes and
more. But today's guest is Pete Greg p is the increasingly bewildered founder of 24/7 prayer in the international interdenominational movement of prayer mission and justice, which has been praying night and day for more than 20 years, and has reached more than half the nations on earth. He and his wife Sammy, have refreshed Anil counselor serve as senior
pastors of a mass road. He also co host the left to 365 daily devotional is a director of Waverly Abbey Abbey trust, an ambassador for the NGO Tearfund and a member of the Order of the mustard seed. He's written many books, including red moon rising
God on mute, and how to pray. It was a lot of fun to sit down and have a conversation with Pete, we talk about the paradox of the kingdom serving the Good Shepherd and the bleeding lamb, finding diverse perspectives in the church, the importance of prayer and hope for what can come out of Waverly Abbey, I know you're going to enjoy this one as much as I did. So here's my conversation with Pete Craig. Pete, welcome to the podcasts. I'm excited to have you on thank
you so much for doing this. Oh, it's
a joy to be with you. Thanks for having me.
And you know, when I was reflecting on you and your life, I mean, it mirrors a lot with the people of God. And the story of the Bible, when there's a lot of highs and mountains and miracles and stories of answered prayer and God with us. And then there's valleys and difficult struggles of unanswered prayer. How do you stay steadfast in the midst of all of that, and just keep walking with Jesus?
Well, we're going straight in that they need
to go straight out into it.
Yeah, I mean, you know, you don't have to be on the Christian road for too long to discover. It's one big fat paradox. Yeah. And you're gonna have to get comfortable with that. You know, it's life is a Rembrandt, you know, it's shadows and light. It's not kind of beige. It's not, it's not consistent. And of course, in a movie, and that you get a narrative arc, right, and starts happy, then it gets sad and gets
happy again. But we all know that in life, The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly hits you three times between the eyes before breakfast. And the hardest question to answer sometimes is how I, you know, like, so right now, I, as I speak to you today, on one hand, I have to process the fact that I just heard that two of my books have been translated into Chinese, which is kind of exciting. And I just heard that the daily devotional podcast, we did an extra 365 now has almost quarter a million
regular users. So encouragement, but the same day, my mother is in hospital, having had a massive stroke, and can't speak and swallow. And so right there, you've got the Rembrandt, you've got the shadows and you got the light. So yeah, you have to get familiar with, with paradox. And one of the things I feel so strongly about Josh, is that the Bible is more honest about that. And the church, yeah, you're the church. It's this big cover up.
And then you read the Bible and it's just it's unbelievable what they didn't redact from the text range. They needed they needed a good marketing you know, good PR advisor to say, like, hey, if Peters your man let's just remove it, no one will be hurt if we remove the bit about him trying to talk Jesus out of the cross. Like you just don't have to share too much information.
So yeah, the Bible that you know, what is it half the psalms of a man even there by the way I hear a lot of progressive Christians now talk about that, and the importance of lament but what they miss Since this, it doesn't work like, you know, 50% of the songs are sad and 50% are happy. The way it works is 50% of most songs are sad, and happy. So right there we got the paradox. So I haven't answered your question I've just agreed with that.
It is a paradox. And we're walking through a place with with a lot of it. But we do have a, a, a shepherd and a good shepherd that walks with us, and is with us and sets a table before us in front of our enemies, and walks with us in the valley. So how do we stay close, then to the shepherd, and know that in those times of paradox, that he is with us?
Was my experience that it's in the times of suffering that we experience Him particularly close. And it's the story of the people of God, going back millennia that we don't do too well, when everything's comfortable. You know, you know, I've been needing a prime movement for 23 years now. And this is what I've learned. No one has a problem with prayer, we just have a
problem with comfort. And I can prove it because literally, nobody ever left the doctor's after a terminal diagnosis and said, I really should pray about this, but I find it difficult. You know, very few people, for that matter, stand on the northern lights or hold a newborn baby and say, while behold a biological few Fluke born into a meaningless universe, you know, the root of the word prayer is linked in Latin to the word precarious. So we pray because life is too
precarious. It's too big for our brains and our hearts. It's too terrifying and too wonderful. So my experience is Psalm 23. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. And so as we walk through the valley of the shadow, our prayer, understandably, has always been me up Scotty, like, make this get me, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here. Like, like, I want an hour left.
I want a helicopter now. And my experience, and I'm sure the experience of most people listen to this, Josh, is that sometimes God does it. And we call it a miracle, right? That the cancer gets healed, you know that the miracle happens, but more often than God airlifts us out of our problems. He parachutes in and joins us in the midst of them. And we experienced them in the MRI tube, more, you know, you know, in the prison cell or
wherever it is. So, you know, and let me say one other thing as we're as we're riffing around the theme of paradox. You said we have good shepherd, yes, and amen. But here's, here's the real head mash. The Good Shepherd is also the Pascale Lamb, the sham, but is also a sheep. So yes, I'm following a shepherd who protects me and leads me and that's really nice. But I am also walking with a lamb who's bleeding to death on my behalf. And there is comfort
in that as well. Because alone in all the religious paradigms as follows of Christ, we have a God who suffers with us and for us, and is not dispassionate to our suffering.
that's mind blowing, to know that we serve a God that has suffered more than we're going to suffer that he could relate to every suffering and grief and sorrow that we go through. And boy, we don't see that and other deities, other religious text, we see it in this God that we serve. It's an incredible mind blowing thing that that happens, that this is who God is that God decided to come and be one of us and experience at all. Well, and,
and, and, you know, it is, you know, if you look at Eastern religions, you have a paradigm says, lose emotion. Right? And that's the approach the way to peace. Detach yourself from reality is the absolute opposite of the Judeo Christian belief that God is in the dancing in the music, you're in the eating in the material. And add it's pretty depressing view, actually, to say God is somehow you just just detach yourself from the realities of
life and you will Find pets. And but then, you know, thinking about the context that I suspect most of your listeners are in secular hewn humanism is even worse. Because, you know, with one you have some deity who is just dispassionate. But in secular humanism, you have no debt at all. And so when my wife was, you know, she she's suffered with a chronic illness for, for, you know, 2021 years
now. And she's often been rushed into hospital and after serious epileptic fits, and on one occasion, Josh, I sat by her bedside so depressed, because the night before she was having the seizure, I was crying out to God, and it hadn't worked. Okay, just didn't work. And young people say, Well, maybe go winter to teach you something. And I feel like kicking them and saying, learn something from
that. Because what is a God can teach me through this season that he couldn't teach me or my wife through the previous 300? You know, so I'm depressed, I'm down. I'm not I'm not naturally good Christian, I found out years ago, guys are terrible. Atheists, I was really, I kept backsliding talking to the god, I didn't believe it was just correct. And so I have resigned myself to being a Christian, because I was less bad at it than atheism. And so you know,
I'm autonomous. My wife who got saved when she was 17, has the most unbelievable unshakeable faith. So I'm there in the hospital with her and I'm saying, babe, maybe God, just as God isn't there, this is how bad my pastoral manner is. Okay, maybe. And she turned to me said thanks for proposing that particular worldview. To me at this moment in time, what you're saying is my suffering has no
consequence. And that I am, you know, the weakest link that I need to be, according to Darwin flushed out of genetic call, that there's no hug. So, you know, she reminded me that if you're an atheist, a secular humanist, you still go through all this stuff. It's just you don't have any hope for this life or next. And so I, I cling on to that bleeding lamb, and I cling on to the hem of the garment of that good shepherd. Because life is too precarious is too wonderful and too terrifying without,
you know, for for years, I saw, particularly the western church going down a road, where it was all about church growth, and it was about more numbers and, and people and feed sin and finances, and it was less about Jesus and following him and being formed like him. And then through this pandemic, when we had as a slowdown, people said, Oh, we might have to get back to the God of the universe and sit with
with him. Right. And through some of these, these hardships, we start to see glimmers of hope moving forward. Where are some places that you see hope within the church today?
Well, the first thing to say is that God is not insecure around atheists, you know, he's not worried about his own existence. And he's promised to build his church. So it's going to be okay. The second thing is that judgment begins with the house of the Lord, according to the Scriptures, and we've been praying pretty solidly for 50 years now Come
Holy Spirit. So we shouldn't be surprised when the Spirit of God comes in all His Holiness, and roots out sin exposes pedophile priests, exposes gross narcissism and materialism, in leaders of franchises with a Christian brand, you know, and shakes the church, and we are seeing that, but please, God, let it be a purifying moment. And I think you're right, we're seeing that. Well, I see how, first and foremost, you know, we have been praying nonstop since
September 1999. Through 911, you know, through the war in Ukraine, through President Trump, through everything in between, we've been praying in multiple locations, every minute of every hour. And when I stepped into a 24/7 prayer room, it doesn't matter whether it's a
nightclub, or cathedral. I see how you know when you see the 14 year old in a prayer room in New Zealand right now trying to talk to God in the middle of the night I see her and what we find is God shows up you know, the Scriptures say, when you seek Him with all your heart you Find him and have you so how do I know from seeking God with all my heart? The answer is easy. 3am. So, when we seek God, he shows up and we cannot take any credit for the fact that he
answers prayer. But we ask that we see that all around the world all the time, couples stepping into prayer rooms, and pornographic addictions getting broken. You know, people come in to prayer rooms and, you know, an outfit like 10 minutes as they weep their heart out before the Lord. It's beautiful. I see hope there. And then, you know, we were chatting just before the the recording started one of the areas I see great hope this is in the world's only caliphate in the world's only theocracy in
than one nation on Earth. That is what ISIS and all those guys are dreaming, to recreate. And I'm talking, of course, about Iran. And so this is the dream if you're a fundamentalist, radicalized, Muslim of a sudden persuasion, and, and yet, it is where officially we see now the fastest growing church in the world that is no longer
contested. And I've been really privileged to have a ringside seat on all of that, not least because one of the primary ministries that is serving apostolic is serving the Arabian church is is based in our neck of the woods. They've all been imprisoned so many times they've been kicked out of Iran. So they're based in the UK, there, and they're doing the most unbelievable work, and many of them are in our church, front, pew, pew, pew, rose on a Sunday
are often Iranians. And, you know, it's it's humbling every one of them I was doing some work in Turkey with some of the some of the leaders and you know, like an idiot, for the first day, they kept coming, asking me questions, you know, Pastor Pete, this pastor Pete, that, and I was like an idiot trying to answer them. And then suddenly the penny dropped. And I started to ask them their stories, and it was beyond the humbling every one of them has been imprisoned for their faith.
You know, every one of them, asked abandonments the Lord Jesus Christ, and I felt like I needed to become a Christian all over again. And, of course, many of them don't have church buildings. Many of the church is very small, but growing fast, but the openness to the gospel
is astounding. And here's what fascinates me, Josh, it's not just in Iran, it is amongst other Farsi speaking, incursion peoples all around the world, if you have Iranians, or as American say, Iranians, you know, in your city, wherever you are Kansas City, wherever they aren't going to be more open to the Gospel than a secular humanist next door, I guarantee
it. So it's interesting in the Spirit of God, sometimes for sociological, but also believe spiritual reasons works in particular demographics.
Yeah, and we see that I mean, we see that in all nations, we have a lot of Iranian believers who said, yes to Jesus, and churches of F started. And but you know, now as you're, if you're leading a church with others, as well, and so you have Iranians coming in, and they're, you know, in the first couple of rows, that, and then they're immersed in your community, you're there, they're strong, they're local, they're
there. what implications does that have for the local church when you see and have these incredible Iranian believers that have gone through so much suffering, and have been in prisons, but they say yes to Jesus, I want to follow him with all my heart. How does that shape and form the local church?
Well, let me give you two practical examples. The first is you know, we just did a teaching series on the book of Revelation. And, of course, that whole apocalyptic thing is is addressed to churches that were under massive persecution. And yeah, you know, one of the things of course, was that the Emperor at the time that much of revelation with Britain you know, was was saying you had to come and you know, offer a pinch of incense to him as a god.
Otherwise, you know, you're gonna lose your job you might put in prison. And so every Christian you imagined it every Christian had to decide, do I go it's only a pinch that is done, I can I can have my fingers crossed by my back not really mean I can say sorry to Jesus later do I go and do that? And most of them did. Or do I refuse and be separated my children who's going to raise? You know, how we can cope financially? How does it help God? Yeah, all that
stuff. So as we're unpacking this, in, you know, in England, I'm suddenly looking down at these front few rows thanking all of you guys refuse to take the pinch. That's why you're in my country, not yours right now. And many of you can't even return to your homeland. So, Matt, Josh, that, that, that changes the conversation as the joy of what you're doing with this podcast, helping us to have a global body of Christ conversation. Let the second
thing is really practical. We suddenly rose were to humble ourselves and learn from these guys. You know, just maybe, just maybe we Yeah. So one of the keys that they that's resources that they've developed that is working amazingly, is a discipleship program called Safar. Saf AR just means the journey. And it's, it goes through all the basics, you know, baptism and water baptism and the spirit, the church
forgiveness, all the basics. And the beauty of it is that anyone who's been a Christian for a week, and you know, with someone who's seven days younger, spiritually, and so, and the other beauty of it is, they're finding it works pretty well, digitally. So you can do it on telephone, you can do it, like through a zoom call, or whatever. So this is like, has got viral implications for not just people getting saved, but
really discipling people. So we went to those guys, and we knew about so far, and you know, we're doing that classic Western Christian thing. That's great guys gonna pray for you. That's so cool. Sephardi How do you pronounce that again? You know, and we like, what, why don't we just, you know, use the same name, refused to give it an English name. And try and build this into the culture of our church. So that's a really practical thing that we've been doing.
And that, that opens people's minds up and eyes to say that we are serving God that's, that's global, that's for the whole world, as not just for, for us that we're, we're born here born in the West, you know, the the first Muslim that we worked with in the Middle East that came to know, Jesus, that she she had a dream of Jesus, he called her to himself. But it wasn't. It's how we read the story of the birth of Jesus when the angels come to the
shepherds. And then they say, I bring good news of great joy for all people. And she stopped and she asked us, you said, Is Jesus really for all people? I thought Jesus was just for you, Christians, people born into a Christian nation. Is he really for us, for us? Most people born in a Muslim country. And we said, well, that's what the angels say, Yeah. And she wanted to follow Jesus from that moment
that he is for all people. And so when we have people within our community, that we see are from other nations, from people around the world. It really does something miraculous and special. When we're, we're embedded in, in community together, that is not homogenous. And it's not something where I think a lot of times we are siloed. In areas where we don't know a different imagination of what it looks
like to follow Jesus. We don't get the diversity of God in different cultures, because of you know, we're following him in our own little specific land. So how do we start to grapple with and wrestle with and start to exceed the diversity of God in ways where we may not see it because of our, our location? How do we get to encounter God through different perspectives?
Well, the first thing I would say to that Josh is, you know, start where you are, because the risk is, as I say, you know, you got to go to somewhere really exotic and cry a lot, but actually, I guarantee you're surrounded by Christian and see disagree with you on a bunch of stuff. And honestly, if you're not loving and listening to them don't get on a plane to
somewhere exotic start there. My friend and mentor Nicky Gumbel says this, he says, I used to look at other kinds of Christians and say what's wrong with them? And now I look at other kinds of Christians and say what's right with them? What can I learn from them. And as I travel, and with all due respect, and I deeply love America, lived there for a year. I love it. I'd never seen America more divided,
particularly. And not just politically, but particularly the church and the church should never, ever be co opted into one political grouping because Jesus Christ is president. He is Lord, he's king. And politics matter, but they are secondary. And so we mustn't divide on politics, even on theology. And yes, we have to work out what the core is. And if I can suggest this probably, the Apostles Creed is not a bad place that the fourth century was about last time, we
all agree. And then you know, if someone can believe that stuff going on Virgin Birth, resurrection, Holy Spirit, they're probably your brother or sister in Christ. So then if they disagree with you on a whole bunch of other things that gifts, the spirit, you know, women leadership, how to do church, love them, and learn from them before you criticize them. And so so that's the first thing I would say, I'll give you
an example. In my own life. I remember, one of the great adventures for us in the 24/7 prayer movement in recent years has been the doors opening wide into the Catholic Church, which you know, that, you know, most Christians on Earth, the Catholics, it just won't do to sell. They're not real Christians were the real Christian, you just shrunk Jesus right down, like don't do that. We have to pray and we along for renewal in the Catholic Church.
And we're seeing hundreds of millions being filled with the Spirit. Loving the Bible falling in love with Jesus is terrific. And anyway, we were doing a thing. I think I was the first non Catholic to speak in, in the cathedral Catholic Cathedral in Salzburg. In Vienna, you know, which is sound and music, you know, all of that. Mozart, and you know, it was all going fine. We have 5000 Young people in and then they did this thing which
just pushed me a bit too far. I couldn't really handle it, Josh, they that they pray that these priests, these priests precess brown holding this big gold cross which had like a circular way for thing you know, they call it a monstrance it's, it's, they they believe it's not just, you know, communion waste that they believe in Transubstantiation and they believe it is mystically the
body of Christ. And so as this guy, put the priest precess round, there was a floodlight followed the monstrance and there was someone swinging incense for an aft. And all these young people were prostrating themselves in front of it. And I watched this I said, lol, I'm really struggling with this because it really looks to me like they're worshiping a thing. Yeah, instead of you, right? I'm just I'm just being really candid.
I'm struck me. And the next day, I found myself back in this crowd standing between the two leaders, this great Catholic youth movement colorata. And we've seen already simple worship song. He is Lord, He is one of those simple ones. And I noticed both these men on each side of me were weeping as they sang it. And I wasn't I just sent the Holy Spirit saying, kid when you rediscover how to cry when you sing simple worship songs we can we can talk about
the other stuff. And that did occurred to me later, Josh that, is it that different? to prostrate yourself in front of a cross than in front of an overhead projector screen? Yeah. Or at the feet of a preacher who's put his hand on your head. Didn't you? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so let's just say let's learn to crack Colossians 127 Christ in you the hope of glory. Thank God the church is bigger than my own tradition
because we ain't perfect. Yeah, if we are the hope the world I'm in deep trouble, the world's in trouble. So let's learn from one another
skirt who I mean we we all have, I mean, let's focus on maybe the 98% of the things that we do agree on. And not that he ever said that we don't and start there and then start to learn and we could wrestle through those things. And I've always had that in me. And I think Ephesians four, the beginning of Ephesians. Four is is something that, you know, we really have to say, yes, we want to wrestle with that there is one God there is one LORD was one baptism, one spirit, and
we're together in this. And so how do we start with Unity, then? How do we how do we start to grapple with that, then you're starting to work with in 24/7, and, you know, the Catholic Church as well. And you're seeing a cross denominations and across, you know, Protestant Catholics that were able to work together, but not everybody's seeing that right now or not willing to do it? How can we stand in Unity under this banner of, of one God and that one Lord Jesus Christ?
Well, look, the first thing is, we've got to be clear that, you know, our differences are a good thing, not a bad thing. The most part, you know, I have two sons, you know, if they both grow up to the same job, wear the same clothes, you know, and never leave the house, I've raised a cult that haven't raced out with the family, right? You know, diversity is a good thing. But then with my sons, we got to work out well, okay. When do we
did Christmas together? And how do we, how do we stay together and loving as a family, but we have the same DNA. And so that's the first thing is celebrate the differences. I want. This is an important caveat on what I said earlier, I'm not saying that our theological convictions don't matter. You know, I'm really passionate, for example, about women in leadership. I don't think there's anything that in the New Covenant, that that, you know, a man can do that a woman
can't be. I mean, I was I was discipled, by an incredible, awesome project people and in Hong Kong, and she was, you know, running church churches, seeing the supernatural signs and wonders following. I have to read the New Testament in the light of that experience, but give you lots of things I'm very passionate about. But what I sense is that I don't have the right to draw the dividing line on a whole bunch of my convictions and say, you don't agree with me on all this, you
are somehow out. You are not a Christian, you are less a Christian, that feels very parasitic. Yeah, to me. So we build unity, not on compromising on everything we believe, but holding our beliefs with humility. Finding out that actually the things I mean, I, you know, I changed my beliefs on certain things in the last
few years. You know, I know Floyd McClung who started, you know, the ministry that use you serve with Josh, you know, I remember him sitting down and telling me, you know, something, you know, he about his own journey where he had discovered the importance of the church. Yeah. Which was he hadn't really believed in, but at when he was international director of YWAM. Yeah, he could never admit that publicly, because it was his ADM, it's where the funding
comes from. But that, you know, he was like, Oh, the church is God's missions agency. Interesting, you know, and then I remember him talking to me about discovering the glory of God, and how that is the defining paradigm. And so I think healthy Christians, I remember watching some footage about Bernie Sanders. And it, you probably saw it, showing how he hasn't changed his beliefs on a whole bunch of things since
the 70s. or something, they played old footage of him, you know, making speeches then, and now it's the same kind of biotic message. And for all these, like, Gen Z is and millennials, they're like, isn't that cool? Here's a man of real conviction. And then as I reflected on it, and I'm not bashing Bernie Sanders, I'm not making any their party political statement. I'm just saying no, actually, that's not really healthy when people don't change their views over decades. Because we're just
not perfect. Yeah, so so hold on to your convictions, but hold them with humility. Make friends with people who are not like you. You know, read books by people who slightly disagree with you. Allow yourself have to be in contexts that are unsettling for you. And you will very quickly find out the convictions you have that really are core convictions and are true to you. And the convictions of actually maybe there's other ways of seeing things.
Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I love to shift just slightly and talk a little bit about Waverly Abbey. And what are you hopeful for in Waverly Abbey? What is it? And what are we going to see out of it?
How can I It's a big question.
Yeah. Hi, now, you have a little bit of time, not much we have.
We, we just stumbled on this incredible miracle. So let me tell you what Waverly Abbey was, and then I'll say where we're heading that way we Abby, as you know, is an abbey obviously an old old old Abbey, just outside London, if you any of the listeners have flown into Heathrow Airport, London Heathrow it's about 40 minutes
from that. It's beautiful. It's 112 acres of you know, forest and formal lawns think Downton Abbey, you know, big old lake, a grand old house, at which the great and the good used to hang out from Florence Nightingale to Conan Doyle who wrote, you know,
Sherlock Holmes. And there's the ruins in the ground of this of this old Abbey, the first Cistercian Abbey, that that that was a place of prayer for about 450 years 44 and 50 years from 11 128 through to you know, the 16th century when Henry the Eighth, you know, shut them down. But before that this patch of land was dedicated as a place of prayer in the year get this 688 ad. Wow. Like, this is pretty close to Jesus by design. I know a lot of my American friends just zone out at this
point go it's just old. Right? And that Yeah, but it's really a horse. You know, this is this is this is over a millennium of prep. So I took my friend Bill who's highly prophetic down there. And we were wandering around and he said he could hear the prayers coming out of the ground you know, centuries people who spent their whole
lives praying on that site. The reason I'm telling you this, the reason you kind of have to ask me about it is just under a year ago, from from now, a conversation really began and with with the people who had been have around the site for last 40 years, and as a result last summer there Ministry of school CW are as 24/7 Prayer came together to take control of this site to establish a new entity for Waverly Abbey trust. And what we are doing on the
site is reviving the Abbey. And that let me explain what that means. And then just give you a sense of it. So, you know, the old Arby's were the key to the evangelization of pre Christian
Europe. You know, from from Iona Abbey, which was Scottish Ireland, which was the greatest center of Christianity outside the Mediterranean basin grabbed three centuries through to Westminster Abbey, which some of you will have watched on TV, the queen, Queen Elizabeth's funeral recently, by the way, that event was watched by half the world's population. Wow. And the gospel was preached by my friend Justin Welby. The choir sang the scriptures. I mean, that's back
to our earlier point. I had I had certain Christians saying, Oh, he didn't preach the gospel, right? What a missed opportunity. And I'm just like, get over it. It's just a different culture, like deal with it. So So Abby's are a big deal. And what interests me is that they they didn't do church, like the way we do church, you know, as a Sunday meeting, we even call it a congregation. You congregate out of something into
this religious space. And you take Holy Communion away from the meal table and it becomes ritualized Brandon. Also, you know, what they did was created colonies of Heaven. The Abbey's were sent as an educator Asian, they were hospitals, they were caring for the poor, that they weren't a lambs. They brewed beer, you know, they offered hospitality to pilgrims. And at the heart of it all was prayer. They were places of prayer houses of prayer, that were mission centers and social
justice centers. And so what our vision for Waverly Abbey is we summarize it Josh on the four E's first encounter, it's a place of encounter with God. You know, so we are praying there. We're building a praying community there, we are offering the Ignatian exercise or we'll be offering the Ignatian exercises. People are coming on pilgrimage, I was just there two
days ago. And as I pulled up, there was a girl from Czech, the Czech Republic there, there was a God who's been in Greece working with refugees, I mean, just the nations are already just counting like you wouldn't believe. So there's a place encounter with God. Now, let me just pause and say at this. I don't believe there's been a moment in any of our lifetimes when the need for Christ been greater than it is now. And if we think that evangelism alone will get the job done, we aren't
reading our Bibles. You know, the church was born out of a program. Jesus stopped them doing evangelism. He said, you know, having said go to all nations, you then said, don't ya Wait, and pray You need the Holy Spirit. And then when the Spirit of God came 3000 Get baptized in a day. So we really need places of prayer. 24/7 roots itself in the story of how manhood, you know, where the Moravian Christians prayed nonstop for 100 years sent missionaries out all over the world better. John
Wesley changed the world. This is another ham. But secondly, this is the first encounter second education. And at Waverley, Abbey, we have inherited brilliant college colorwave, the abbey college, that is the best place and all of Europe are training Christian counselors at a time of a mental health crisis. And so we're working hard to broaden those courses and to move them online.
So you can be at Albuquerque, or Sri Lanka and framework wherever the abbey college is we want to tool up Christians, especially Christian leaders, with the best of psychology, no apologies for that, and the best of theology to bind up broken hearts. So education. The third thing, so we've got a house of prayer, we've got a Christian university. The third thing is enterprise social enterprise. We can't fund this just on handouts, the old model from
Christians. And so we're starting businesses, we've got some unbelievably successful business, people who are coming around this now we're creating a brand around the monastery. And we use smart tech recording studios, you know, hospitality,
you know, the whole thing. So enterprise, and then finally, engagement, we are absolutely determined that this won't just be replaced with prayer law, friends and people and have some cool, boutique hipster businesses, it will be a place that makes a measurable difference amongst the poor. And the last it preaches the gospel. So that's the vision for ease. It is an extraordinary thing to be doing that in a place that's been a place of prayer for 1400 years. And we are incredibly
excited about it. But it's one of the biggest challenges of my life. So you are still coming this day.
Yes, that would be amazing. And I pray that this Abbey can start to multiply across the world to where they say there are going to be places of of encounter and prayer and education, places of of Kingdom Business and Enterprise, places where we're going to see social change and care for the poor and the marginalized and neglected and communities. And we could see that and cities across the world. And so that's one of my big prayers of out of Waverly Abbey, we're going to see this
gone. Oh, here is something that we can start to launch to the nations and to see this happen in people in places where Jesus is not yet known, but we're gonna see Jesus come to the forefront people are going to start to worship Him and live into the kingdom in this kingdom reality around the world. And so that's my prayer at the map. I want to see it happen. And it's good. So Pete's if you could go back all the way to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Get a decent haircut? Oh, I see another one. Do not, do not get rid of all your vinyls and replace them with compact discs. Yeah, not everyone with a lot of money. That that is not a good thing today. But it's precisely what I did. Yeah, you know, I think I would say the first thing I think I'd say is don't be so intense. Intensity is not a gift of the Holy Spirit joyous. It's gonna be okay. You're actually gonna meet a girl who likes you and she's amazing.
Don't worry. life's gonna be much more painful than you ever thought it could be. But you're going to survive, it's going to be alright. And God is gonna do things with you and through you. beyond anything you could ask or imagine. Just keep saying yes. And I think that's probably the only other thing Josh, I'd want to say that 21 year old me is. You know, my friend, Joe Webb, who is actually like the abbess
of Waverly Abbey. She's amazing. She says this, she says, at the posture of a true discipleship disciple is this. Yes, Lord, the answer is yes. Now, what's the question? You know, let me reframe that. The most dangerous thing that you will ever do in your life is saying no to the God who knows you best and loves you best. The safest thing you can ever do is say yes to the one who knows you best and wants
the best for your life. And so get into the habit, even when it terrifies you of saying yes to God. And in the words of Julian of Norwich, that old Saint all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things should be one
has gotten anything you've been reading watching lately, you could recommend.
Yeah, I just watched a great series on I don't know who is it who. But it was, it was it was called dropout. It was an eight part series exploring that. Darren us. Yeah. You know, Elizabeth was so surname anyway. That was extraordinary. You want to see how the values of greed and the desire for power can twist an individual and become a culture? It's absolute, the chilling and fascinating because we all know that she was she was just literally what was it like a month about six two months ago
was sent to prison? Yeah. But 12 years, I think she got in the end. So she's there right now. But you know, because it was basically a big Ponzi scheme. She She claimed that with a peripheral blood, you could do 68 different medical tests of everyone, Rupert Murdoch, all these, all these people, you know, she was the richest woman in America isn't. And then they found that there was literally
no fruit to her claims. But everyone was bought, because you know, once one person invests, everyone's worried about missing out, so it's like this amazing study on the culture, and on the insidious nature of sin and what that looks like structurally. And the only thing I would say is that it's pretty bleak, because there wasn't a lot of redemption and there wasn't any repentance in that. So yeah, I just watched that. And I don't do you want a Christian answer?
I want to I want a real answer. That's good. That's good.
I'm gonna have any rah rah Heiser at the moment on the verge of formation, which is very good. There you go. Just to reassure anyone who's questioning my
law lot of Ronald are all Heiser recommendations lately. vodcasts people
glommed on to this new book, it says
some surrender. So Oh, stunning.
And here's my art tip. If you haven't read, surrender yet, don't listen to it. The audio book is incredible. He reads it himself. He like bleeds in different YouTube tracks and poetry and sound. Unbelievable.
And wow. The the audiobook is surrender. Yeah, that's very, I love it. How can people connect in with some of what you're doing? What would you like to say? I mean, there's so many things that you could, you could say but where where do you want people to plug into?
Hey, just you You can find out more about all of this stuff 24/7 prayer.com My name is Pete Greg, and you know, I'm on for my sins. I'm on social media so you can connect there. And you know what maybe one of the good on ramps to people is we do this daily devotional, it's absolutely free called lactea 365. You can get it wherever you get your apps
from. And like I say, that's got hundreds of 1000s of daily users, and it will help you to fall back in love with the Bible by praying the Bible, you know, rather than just reading it. And so I think that's why it's really taken off. And then just, you know, as you're nice enough to ask, I've written some books. Yeah. Robin rising, dirty glory got on mute about unanswered prayer. You know, that's where
we started paradox. How to Pray simple guy for normal people, how to hear God, simple guy, normal people, and one or two others. So those are all on Amazon.
And they're so good. And we've we've incorporated, how to pray and smile other things into our all nations internship to say, Oh, wow, learn and grow. From P Greg. So thank you for that. So that we can help others say prayer is essential, and necessary and needed as we go out to make Jesus known around the world. Beautiful. So Pete,
thank you so much. Thank you for talking through the paradox of where God is in the midst of all of that, walking through this journey of the diversity of God, seeing the unity of the church and believers, seeing the hope and the Iranian church right now. Go on to say what is going to happen through Waverly Abbey, and hopefully then we could see that transfer all around the world. And so thank you so much for this conversation. I truly enjoyed it. It was
oh, it's been rich. Thank you, Josh. God bless you. Thank you.