Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Go to shifting culture podcast.com to interact and donate. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each Tuesday. Previous guests on the show have included Jonathan Fokker Pam Arland, and
Mark skin dreht. You could go back listen to those episodes, and more. But today's guest is Craig Greenfield. Craig is the founder and director of alongside US International a fast growing movement mobilizing and equipping 1000s of young children to walk alongside those who walk alone, vulnerable children and orphans. After 20 years in the slums, he has written many books, urban Hallo subversive Jesus and his latest
subversive mission. We have a great conversation around his story living in the slums of Cambodia, finding our way as missionaries, and how the fivefold applies in cross cultural work. So you're sure to love this conversation with Craig Greenfield? Craig, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming.
awesome to be here, Joshua. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'd love to hear your story of how you got into your own missionary journey. How did Jesus set you on the path that you that you went on?
Yeah, sure. Well, like, like many folks, while I was at university, became a Christian and actually decided to take a semester off and go and spend six months in Cambodia. And I had a connection with Cambodia, because my parents had actually adopted to Cambodian refugees when I was when I was a child. Wow. So there was already that sense of connection there. But while I was over there, just started hanging out in the slums and getting to know young people there. And God really grabbed my
heart. And I remember one day, I really put a lot of effort into learning the language. I was, I guess, I was 2122. And I kind of memorized how to share the gospel in us in the Cambodian language. And one of my friends in the slums there. And I said to NIH kind of shared this presentation with him that I'd memorized. And he just looked at me and said, shook his head very sadly, and said, Craig, I'm very poor. I'm very poor. And to me is like, Dude, you're missing
the point completely. This is rich or poor, makes no difference. Yeah, in my mind, makes no difference rich or poor. But it really set me on a journey to kind of delving into Jesus's teachings around, you know, Jesus literally said, I've come to bring the Gospel to the poor. Yeah, come to bring the poor. And this, this friend of mine was certainly not hearing it as good news. And so that really started me off thinking, what is what is this gospel? What is good news for the poor?
So yes, and I ended up moving back and moved into the slumps 20 years ago.
Wow. So it was 20 years ago, you moved into the slums in Cambodia. And you decided to figure out what is good news for the poor. And so as you looked at the teachings of Jesus, so you looked at who he was, and when he said, Good news, the poor, what do you think he means? What does that look like?
Yeah, well, I mean, it's been a it's been a long journey to summarize in one sentence, but one thing I did a I did kind of discover is that wherever Jesus was preaching, he was preaching about this kingdom. The kingdom, so to understand why this kingdom is good news, we have to know what is what does the kingdom look like? And why would it be good news to the poor? And why would aspects of it almost feel like bad news to the rich and
powerful? And, you know, you look at you look at the prophecy that Mary saw, where she thinks, Well, Jesus is in the womb, speaking about, you know, the, the powerful be pulled down from their thrones and Hungary will be feared and the poor will be lifted up. It gives us a hint of what this kingdom could be like. And it's not our interestingly enough, it's not a gospel or a kingdom that we hear a lot about in most of our churches. Yeah.
Yeah. And so this kingdom is it's really important to figure out where is the reign and role of God in our lives, so that we actually could bring And it's really an upside down kingdom, right that there is you're you're flipping the tables a little bit and saying, Hey, there's actually going to be something for everybody at
this table. And I know when Jesus announced his ministry that Jesus didn't like, like it after, you know, he talked about people from all nations coming in, and it's not just the Jews. And it's so
he tried to throw Him off the cliff at that point, that it sure did.
So so how do we get to to a place where the kingdom is good news? For All? As we're entering into that? What does it look like when we're actually bringing what you said? A? So let's, let's go, bring in the kingdom of God. And what that is good news, as opposed to the actual like, what you said gospel message that you thought you brought at the very beginning?
Hmm. Well, I mean, I, one of the ways that I think about the Kingdom of God is in give me a chance to explain this a little bit I, you know, where Jesus is born in Bethlehem is the reason one of the reasons but from the divine plan, but this is all part of it, is the census, right? empires have a census, for very specific reasons. They want to know how much tax they can take and how many soldiers they can either recruit or men they have to oppress. That's about money
and power. So Jesus was born right there in the, under the shadow of the twin pillars of the empire, money and power. And interestingly enough, in Luke three, the next chapter, John, the Baptist calls to very specific groups to repentance, the tax collectors and the soldiers. So we know that this kingdom is coming against, or is at least the very opposite of these two things that, that kind
of characterize the Empire. And for me, it's that is the characterization is Kingdom versus Empire, the Empire Strikes Back, but it's about money and power. And so when we understand the gospel, there are going to be aspects of economic repentance, there's going to be aspects of those of us who hold power are going to be giving up power are going to be laying down power, and those who are powerless are going to be lifted up are going to be, you know, blessed in all kinds of ways
that will be lifted up. So those are those are kind of two aspects. And that's kind of where missions has often gone wrong. Throughout history is with you know, my if we talk about empire, we're talking about colonialism as well. Right? So money and power. The the two kinds of ways that we have sometimes unintentionally, potentially undermined ourselves and mission is through money and power. Yeah, the wrong use of those things.
Yeah. And I know that, you know, me going out as in doing so called missions, and missions, were seeing seeing churches planted and multiplied. One of the things that, that I don't always realize is I have really subconscious things within me, where I, my posture, going into a community sometimes says, Hey, I have all the right answers. You don't have any answers. Let me show you the right way. And it's really disempowering to the local people that I'm trying to reach.
How can we go in in a different posture and a different way where it actually lifts people up, rather than disempowers? them?
Yeah, well, that's actually pretty much the theme of my new book, subversive mission. And what I want to suggest is that many of the ways that we have gone into the world and done missions is, are filled with power and have not given a sense of ownership or empowerment. So many of the ways that we have kind of gotten into the world and done missions have
been disempowering. And I think that, you know, COVID was an inflection point, we saw a lot of missionaries go home, and frankly, a lot of ministries collapsed when those missionaries were not there. And, and I think that is an indicator of a lack of ownership or lack of lack of sustainability. And in all of those things, are ministries and so how do we then go into the
world? You know, there, there are, you know, some go with great ignorance and naivety and others are paralyzed, and they have the sense calling, but they don't want to go they don't want to be a white savior or a savior of any color. And they see the baggage and so that that's why I wrote this book is really what's the posture? And what does that look like for it? The various giftings in the fivefold ministry that we find in Ephesians. Four, which I know you're very, very familiar with.
Yes, yes. Yes.
So my thesis, my proposal is that each of those roles, Apostle, teacher, evangelist, pastor, Prophet, are actually roles for insiders, primarily, those roles for you might be a gifted pastor in Seattle. When you get on that plane and go to Nairobi and become a missionary, your role is not to be a pastor, but to reframe that slightly, and to come as a midwife helping local leaders give birth to communities of faith in that
context. Yeah. And so I've reframed each of the five, including the evangelists, which you kind of touched on them, what does it look like to be an evangelist in it as an outsider, reframe reframed each of those five, four outsiders? Who God is still calling, by the way? Yeah,
I think that's really, really helpful. And as I as I read through it, and I look through what you have, I think it's a great framework. And I think it actually helps us in the posturing of what it looks like as as missionaries. And because, you know, as as a missionary, is very apostolic, you're you're doing apostolic type of things, you're starting to help build, and grow and sustain, reproduce, multiply, establish the Kingdom of God, where it hasn't been
established. But when you actually reframe it, you've reframe it for an outsider as a catalyst. Yeah. And catalyzing actually helps me say my posture is actually defined local people and local leaders than to raise up and, and give them some scaffolding that when I take my hands off of it, it actually still holds up. And they're building it and growing it and multiplying it. Yeah. And I love I love what you did with that posture. And it was really, really, really good.
Yeah. And is it just a subtle, subtle or not so subtle difference between giving birth to the vision that's in our heart, it's an apostle will often do, and a catalyst, which is helping local leaders give birth to what God has placed in their hearts. Yeah. And that's that, that makes all the difference, though, at the end of the day, in sense of ownership and sense of just responsibility and faithfulness to the task going forward.
Yeah. And we saw, we saw so many times when we tried to in in Jordan, when we tried to sit and say, even start a little Bible study, and then eventually have local people lead. never actually worked out very well, because we started to lead at the very beginning. And so everybody would always look to us as leaders, and you need to do it, we can't do it, you're the authority, and we're not. And we actually just switched our posture to say, Oh, we found somebody that's a personal piece
that was open and hungry. And then we started to coach from behind from the very beginning, beautiful. And that's when things started to grow and multiply. But it wasn't until we had to change our posture is something we had to learn how to learn that in the slums of Cambodia.
By starting things that didn't, didn't continue. And that's by that's my gifting is also around the catalyst slash the apostle to. And really, I say, God has gifted me to start new initiatives, alongside and with the poor, that will benefit people on the margins. That's my particular focus and interest. Yeah, so you know, we've had some spectacular failures. What one of them was, we started an NGO that was, you know, had 35 staff and was eventually serving
1000s of people. And, unfortunately, through, you know, corruption at the very top, absolutely imploded. We've been through the heartbreak of seeing things destroyed and fall over and, you know, but we make those mistakes, and we learn from them, and then we go forward to the next season and hopefully can do better next time. Yeah, by God's grace.
Yeah, it's always learning about mistakes. And one of the things is knowing that you're actually not at the end of the your story, but you're actually in the middle of the story, that there is actually something on the other side that we could actually look forward and have hope One of the things I've never been to Cambodia, myself, my wife has been a few times on visits to some missionaries to for pastoral care and encouragement. And she says it's one of the darkest places that she's ever
stepped foot in. And it was really challenging spiritually, the spiritual darkness. And so, as you enter into a space where it can be dark spiritually, how do you how do you get into that, that space and know that Jesus actually has you? And, and can comfort you in the midst of of what you're trying to do? When you see poverty and depravity? All around you?
Yeah. I mean, I've, yeah, the two places that I've spent most of my adult life that Cambodia and the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver, Canada. Yeah, I actually, I, I often have thought to myself, Vancouver, Canada, the Downtown Eastside, at least, is much darker than Cambodian. And, you know, I think it is just looking for those signs of hope isn't in asking God for eyes to see. You know, when I get, there's just a funny little thing that Cambodians do, that gives me
hope. It's, you know, how you often ride a scooter around in Southeast Asia. So I always run in. And if you take off with your scooter stand down, when you go around the corner, you know, you could could have a little accident or something. And Cambodians will always point out to you when your standards doubt. And to me, it's like you're taking off new business standards down your standards. And for me, I just kind of right early on, I said this is a sign of beautiful GNR, right, they
have nothing to gain. In fact, they could get a good laugh as he fell off. So they have everything to gain if they don't say. But instead, in an act of just a little act of service and friendliness and helpfulness, they always tell you, and so forth. And that's just a silly little example, though, of having eyes to see signs of hope. Because the kingdom of God is breaking through everywhere, wherever we see everything good comes from God. So give thanks to God for those good things
that we see. And keep our eyes on those rather than the many, many things like corruption can the latest numbers came out Cambodia is the second most corrupt country in the world after Venezuela. Wow. Which, you know, is quite the prize, you know, more corrupt than Afghanistan and corruption. Wow, we'll get you down big time. If you don't have if you don't continually be asking God God because me eyes to see where you are at work, how you work how you're breaking through.
Hmm. That's, that's good. That's really good. I guess I could actually tell them, the thing that I really like about just seeing you in this conversation is I can actually tell that you love the people of Cambodia. Like, you're like, of course, I love the people of Cambodia. And so, and I love them. And I think God gives us that love so that we can start to have eyes to see
what God is doing. So you talked a little bit about, you know, as were you, we talked a little bit about the evangelists and actually being a seeker and you went into to Cambodia, what kind of redemptive analogies things that actually pointed to God within their culture. Were you able to find and see.
Yeah, so Well, my wife is actually was born in Cambodia. She's Cambodian, Chinese, and was born just before the Khmer Rouge. Yes. And she lived her first early years through the, through the Khmer Rouge, you know, genocide that took a third of the people in
Cambodia's lives. But her mother, who's actually staying with us right now, she talks about how the old grandmother used to sit her on her knee and talk about this prophecy that Buddha had and the seems to be a prophecy that's only talked about in Cambodia, so I don't know if it's legit or not, but it's a legit Cambodian myth and story that about Buddha, talking about how there would be a One who would come after him who would be greater than and who would be known as a king who
brings peace and would have disks in his hands and in his face. And so when they they lived through most of the Khmer Rouge years, my wife was about five years old, I guess when they escaped through the jungle to Thailand to the refugee camps. And when they get to this refugee camp and neighs, my wife, neighs mother, has been praying all along. God save me, whoever, whoever can save me.
And they get to this refugee camp, and she begins to hear the stories of Jesus and recognizes in Jesus, this Buddhist prophecy that she had been told as a small child on her on her own mother's knee. Wow. And so at that point, there she she recognizes this is the guide I've been searching for, gives her life over to Jesus. And so it's it's looking for these cultural touchpoints or redemptive analogies. Don Richardson calls them that that's why, in my book, I've reframed the evangelist as a
seeker. And that might be kind of shocking to people because we think, well, we come with the answer, we know we're not seeking anything. But if we are humble, and we are coming to listen and find out what conversation is God already having with these people, then we will come as a seeker. And I think, particularly in this new season, as we go forward post COVID postcolonialism. People will, who have a cross cultural calling will increasingly embrace much more of this humble posture.
Yeah, I know, John 644, always actually gives me a humble posture where Jesus says to His disciples, nobody could come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them. And so you know, for me is then as somebody who tried to share good news, I'm actually looking for the people that the Father is drawing. And, and I know that it's actually not up to me about how good of a evangelistic program that I have or a message that I have, but it's actually seeing that God's already
working in people's lives. And that actually very comforting to me, as somebody that evangelism is not my strongest suit. It's really comforting that I know I could actually seek and find Yeah, so it's, it's great to
be a listener. And yeah, I love I love the phrase, God being in conversation with people. What what is that conversation already? That's happening already?
Yeah. So what does that look like for you, as you go into the slums you live it and work alongside these Cambodians? How do you as a humble posture and have conversations with people and listen to them? What are some good, good tips that you have to enter into conversations cross culturally?
Well, there's the obvious one that we got to learn the language. You know, we can't just rock up with a translated tract that we hand out. You know, we've got to absolutely invest in learning language in quaternary. It's just so obvious, it barely needs to be said. But perhaps it's worth mentioning, it
is worth mentioning.
And, and for me, that's been probably one of the greatest investments I've made is to really go hard on learning language. And that has paid dividends over the years since then. Yeah. And continue learning the language. There's always more to learn. But I guess, as a as someone who's more gifted in the capitalist side of things than the the evangelist side of things, I guess, I'm really looking at ways to equip Cambodians to be
having those conversations. And so that's why we started partly why we started the alongside his movement of equipping young Christians, first in Cambodia, and now in 25 countries around the world to walk alongside one vulnerable child each in their own community and disciple them. And so a lot of my time and efforts go in that direction.
Yeah. So what made you decide, hey, this is something I want to actually give myself to with a long ciders of saying, I want discipleship to be actually central in people's lives, and I want others to be able to walk with vulnerable children. What does that look like?
Well, look, the reason I I literally have given my life to it in the sense of I started this movement in Cambodia 20 years ago, and it was spreading and bearing fruit in Cambodia. And then we moved to Vancouver and started something else. It was just you know, the typical catalysts less apostles starting various Initiative's. But about 10 years ago, I was diagnosed with
serious cancer. And I really began to cry out to God and say, you know, I've worked with vulnerable children and the fatherless for so many years on my own children now going to be fatherless. And of course, in God's way, he doesn't always answer our questions. He asked one back, and I felt like God was asking me, well, Craig, if you only had five more years on this earth, what would you do
with those five years? And I just knew in my heart, and everyone's answer would be different, you know, something to do. Because family is central, but I just felt like I would I would give my life and pour it out for the most vulnerable children on earth. Like, I can't think of a better way, apart from taking care of my family, of course, but to pour out my life for vulnerable
children. And so it was at that point that I kind of had this wake up moment, God opened my eyes and said that this alongside this thing that was started in Cambodia is bearing way more fruit than anything else you've started. And that's because it's so relational. It's discipleship, it's church based, and so many aspects of it is not relying on money, so many aspects of it that just are just, you know, have the seeds or real movement to take off.
Yeah. And so is it that point that we realized God was saying, why don't you help this go to other places. And that's what we began to do. And in the last 18 months, we've seen explosive growth. It's it doubled last year. And then this year, we're on track again, to double we're at about 17,000 children and youth involved around the world. So Wow. Yeah, I think God is God's doing a special thing, despite all the ways that I've managed to mess things up over the years, God, God, is it worth,
if we put him at the center or not ourselves, then things actually get to grow and multiply, and we can't actually mess things up as much. So I'm sure you've done some of that, which is, which is great. But you know, one of the things that Jesus says is that we really, we can't enter into the kingdom unless we're like little children. So as you're as you've been walking alongside vulnerable children, what have they taught you about the Kingdom of God?
Hmm. Well, they, I mean, like, like I said, before, those signs of hope are so present in children and youth, and so much of the world are young, in so hopefully, we're not overlooking them in our ministries, because you're if you are in some countries, you're overlooking 60 to 70% of the population. Yeah. But I, you know, I look at, I look at the way Jesus operated, he sends out his disciples empty handed, they come back, they've seen miracles, so they've already experienced being reliant and
being empty handed. And then they're face to face with the 5000 hungry people. Yeah. And their first response, again, is kind of paralysis is too much need, we don't know what to do send them away. And Jesus says, No, paralysis is not an option. And so they say, well, they kind of turned to the charity response, why don't we do we need to get you know, half a year's wages and bring in all these resources from outside to meet the snake. And Jesus again, says, No, that's not the way.
And so finally, they, they kind of their eyes are open, and this little boy comes to them with a very meager offering. And, and that actually turns out to be the seeds of, of the miracle. Yeah. And to me, that's such a beautiful symbol of how children are in our community, they have so much to offer, young people have so much to offer. And but we often look down on what they bring, they say they don't have enough experience, or this or
that or wisdom. And I think that's the way God very often works is using those who are the weakest and most vulnerable, to spread his kingdom and mighty ways.
Yeah. And I, you know, one of the things I mean, last night we, at our church, were talking a little bit about, about children. And what does it look like to do not just do children's ministry and have them separated, but have them say, integrated and teach the adults so that we actually could be with them. And I've started to cry and weep when I actually was thinking about how children can can encounter the living God, like when they actually can learn and see like, hey, I can
actually hear God's voice. I can move and do different things I could have children could call people into healing prayer, or it's something where adults jaded adults don't have the faith for it, but the children have the faith for it. And they could actually move move people
forward. And I know that as soon as I am starting to see, you know, I have a five year old and seeing God through His eyes and hearing how he encounters him, in different ways, actually opens myself up to a new faith that I hadn't seen before. Because I got to see a different perspective and a different lens. And so, what what what are some, some ways that you have seen the people within alongside or some counter god?
Yeah. Well, you know, they they, boy did they put us to shame sometimes. And these are, you know, these are young people who are very often living in slums in you know, the poorest conditions, rural villages, mud brick homes, tin shacks, these, these are the people who are going out of their way. Some of them not only go out to disciple one, but mobilize hundreds more to make
disciples. I remember asking Rachel, and alongside her in Malawi, how she chose her little system, we asked them all to choose their own, because it's all about ownership, about the being between them, and God, not them and us. And she said, Craig, I come from a village that is notorious for prostitution and trafficking. And I was I heard about alongside is this concept and I went into my room to pray and ask God, who, who should be my
little sister. And I looked out my window, and I saw a little girl named Esther, and her family were teaching her how to dance seductively for men. And I knew, she said, Craig, I knew at that moment what was in store for her. And so as she Rachel chose Esther, as her little sister, and I was asking Rachel, last week, on WhatsApp, how she how Esther was doing, because this was a few years ago. And she said, Esther is doing really well. She's, she's joined the church. She's part of a faith
community. And she's just finished high school. And now she wants to become a nurse. And I just thought, what a what an absolute transformation, you know, from a life of perhaps being used and abused to being someone who brings healing to the world. Wow. And it's small, no one. No, you know, there's no headlines about Rachel and Esther. But that is the kingdom of God breaking forth in small ways all over the world.
And actually, you know, that goes to breaking generational trauma of actually seen generations of people going through the same types of poverty, the same types of prostitution are the same, like just over and over and over again, until God breaks in and one generation changes that actually changes multiple generations downstream. Yeah,
children after children. And so, you know, one of the things I've been reflecting on in the last couple of weeks was that, that generations of multiplication that are not just here on earth that we're going to see, but it's actually going to be years and years and years down the road that those children, great grandchildren, great, great grandchildren are all going to be transformed and changed, because of the way that God broken.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right, like Esther's children and children after that will, will reap the blessings of her life being turned around.
And that's where I see you know, Malawi as a as a nation, so communities start to be transformed. And the nations are transformed like this, it actually leads to incredible transformation. And all that is what you're doing is saying, all right, walk with one. Yeah. And over the long term, and I think that's why how did you get to a place where I think as an apostle, catalyst type person, you we go from starting new things to then Okay, then let's
start something else. And I know for me, like, I'm good after two, three years, like, I could go to something new. How do you get to a place where you say, Okay, we're actually doing this over the long term and the long haul, and it's not just short term, hit and run?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that that is a challenge for those of us who are kind of wired towards new initiatives, emphasis being on the new is get five years deep, and it's like, oh, what else should I do now? But I think that one of the things that got said to me early on was And a lot of as you can tell a lot of my life is around the vulnerable children and orphans. And God said to me, don't leave your ministries is orphans. In other words don't don't start things and not properly raised them to the
point where they are strong. And so that's, that's really been a huge investment of time and energy over the last few years, in getting alongside us to the point where, you know, there's leaders at every level, they just had their Africa gathering, and with 25, leaders from all over Africa, and I wasn't even there. And just just looked like an amazing, I was jealous, like an amazing time. And their age, the Asia gathering will be next week, and I will again, I won't
be there. And that's really, to me, that's important that it's not built around some kind of charismatic person on a throne somewhere that that person falls or goes away, everything collapses. To me, it's important that 99% of the long side has don't even know who Craig Greenfield is. Yeah. I think that's just why. Because I'm just, you know, I'm just a frail human being. Yeah, but building, building something that will last and, you know, just to be
to be very practical. I've had a leadership coach over the last couple of years that has really helped me when I get, I'm just like, Lee, I just can't face doing this thing anymore. And she and she will be like, Craig, who are you raising up to do this thing that you hate to him? That you're not that good at? And it's just pushed me in the right directions? And that has been incredibly helpful.
Yeah, coaching has been been huge, is a huge key and leadership coaching. And it's also, as we've talked through this, I mean, you're talking about submission, humility, that actually is part of receiving coaching, and helping help from other people. Yeah, and that's yeah, that's beautiful. I'd love to let's go into your book subversive mission. A little bit and talk a little bit about that, that the missionary typing in the from
the fivefold. Yeah, as CIO? And what does that look like going from an insider into an an outsider position and posture?
Yeah, well, one of the things like I kind of like about this framework is, is a framework for loving our neighbors and across cultural setting, is it gives you a few more options. You know, we've had this one word missionary, which is, in many, in many people's minds is one way to be a missionary. And, you know, the Church wants you to report on that one way. And, and not only that, but this is a word that has so much baggage now. And I would, I would venture to say
that it's done. It's time it's done its course, it's no longer an asset in most situations, some situations. Yeah. But those those places are shrinking. It's now a liability for most, and I believe that's why this is a little aside, I think that's why most mission agencies are seeing a downturn and funding and personnel coming through. And so we actually do need new wineskins. And we need new frameworks and ways of thinking.
And so I think the fivefold ministry types from Ephesians, for us is a great candidate. Saying this is great way to understand how we could serve in the world because we're not all wired the same. Yeah, we're not all evangelists. Like let's just say it. Paul doesn't expect that we're all evangelists, or we're all prophets, or we're all pastors, some are evangelists, some up of profit, some are pastors, some are teachers, and
some are possible. So that's just to me, that's quite freeing, actually, very, that Oh, you mean, I could actually live into my gifting that God has gifted me in a certain way. And I could really live into that. And I don't have to be someone that I'm not. So there's that that starts that's freeing, it's freeing to get rid of the word missionary for many of us.
And then to recognize that there's a posture that goes with this, when we come not as not as an apostle, but as a catalyst that that that reframes our posture, a posture of not being the superstar but being the sidekick. Not being the one who is the person who solves everybody's problems, but being the one that comes in alongside and strengthens. And so yeah, basically, the prophet becomes
an ally. Not to not to lead the work against injustice, but to amplify By the voices of local prophets, the seeker the evangelist becomes a seeker the teacher becomes a guide, helping local people to find the solutions to their problems rather than telling them the answers. And of course, the pastor midwife and apostle catalyst.
Yeah, that's, that's good as you've been walking some people through this, how have their eyes been been opened to a more freeing aspect of saying I could live into their, to my gifting, then there actually is a part for them to play where they didn't feel like they had a part to play. Have you experienced that? And what has that been like for people?
Well, there's there's a couple of different groups, of course, but one of the one of the groups that I wrote this for is for for this next generation who are who feel paralyzed around mission. You look at Jim Elliott 1956, martyred on a beach with a spear as he tried to reach the horny people. And really labeled around the world as a hero, a martyr for the faith, he was on
the cover of Life magazine. Now, almost 60 years later, John Allen Chow, murdered in almost exactly the same way in the Andaman Islands, also trying to reach this unreached tribe who speared him to death. And hailed as a full and a flag bearer for colonialism. In many parts of the world, now that not all, many pockets of the church, still, we're saying he's the hero and a martyr. And there's no judgment anywhere except to say that societal understanding and values and all of that has
shifted remarkably. And, and we have to take that into account and the next generation of Christians hold those same values and understanding and as they reflect on colonialism in the past, some of that is warranted and some of it over the top. But they are paralyzed. Yes, that's the word I'm using is they're paralyzed, because they need a new framework for understanding how they can be in the world. Yeah, and that's what I hope this book will do is to write it to new wineskins for
that. And and, and others who have read it has said to me, you know, someone who's been working in in a nother large mission organization, or when I went mentioned, but he basically said, This is how I have found is the way to go into the world. This is what I've been doing, but I've never had words for it. So this is a great framework to understand it. Yeah, hopefully just giving people words and labels of a way to think about it.
Yeah. And I've been been, you know, walking with this, you know, especially within that the FS world five Q with Alan Hirsch walking in this this fivefold ministry and then trying to say, Okay, how do I apply this to missions? And what does it look like to see movement and I know when when I'm, I'm training and teaching in this, that people go, Oh, I actually have a part to play in missions that I could actually, I know, my part now, and I know
where I could fit in. I didn't know what are sort of the things that I could be doing to help people. But I think what you have done and which I think is beautiful, is take it actually a step further into a different posture. And I've been trying to, to explain what this posture
is. But the way that you've just switched the words into being an outsider, and then having an insider language is that will help people tremendously, I'm really excited to be able to start to use your words, within this fivefold, so to help missionaries say I could go cross cultural and I know how to fit. And I know the type of posture that I need to take when
I go into a community. And so I just say thank you, it's, it's a really great work that I think is going to be really beneficial for lots and lots and lots of people as they have their understanding of cross cultural work shifted and changed and they can move into a totally new direction. So
Hmm, that's certainly my prayer is that we can we can recapture the flame and, and and have a new sense of energy going forward?
Yes, yes. So now if you can go back to your 21 year old self, what kind of advice would you give to yourself?
I you know, I think what One thing I did, right back then was, you know, said this is learning the language. That was, I would just give myself a pep talk, like all of those hours that you're spending hours and hours every day are going to really pay off Craig, I would say, it's gonna really pay off. And, and don't give up. It's a long journey. And you'll be learning all along the way. And don't be paralyzed by the fact that you know, you're gonna make mistakes.
Making mistakes is part of the way that we learn and keep at it. I probably say maybe don't go so hardcore. We've been living. We almost killed ourselves in the slums in the early years, you know, just no electricity or water and just very, very hard conditions. And then when we moved to Canada, we had just come from that we set up a Christian intentional community in the Downtown Eastside. And we were still in
that mindset. And the people who came to live with us, I just want to apologize publicly now. My wife and I were like, Should we have a fridge? You know, I don't know if we need a fridge. See, we honestly, we burned out a few people along the way. And it was, it was a bit much. We've mellowed. We've mellowed over the years. But that maybe that's just the the general trajectory of people's lives. Isn't it? Mellow? But
yeah, it is. It's good to have a little bit of mellow, but you got to have that the vigor of youth to be able to go to enter into spaces where you wouldn't be able to enter into it. Now, I'll probably do the same thing you did 20 years ago, right.
die after one day. But that is that actually that's the a lot of the energy behind the alongside us movement is just young people have so much to offer. Yeah, they have so much energy, they are ripe for change in new ideas. You want to change a nation work on the youth? Yeah. Yeah, you don't bring a new idea to the 16 year olds, you bring a new idea that the 16 year olds and the 20 year
olds Yep, exactly. That's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.
Look, I love one of the one of the books that's really helped me understand my own worldview. And and contrast that with, with Asia, and much of the rest of the world is a book called The geography of thought. And it's fascinating book that kind of explains where our looks at the kind of origins of, of Western individualism in Greek culture, where they are, you know, they're out hunting and shooting. And if you if you get on the wrong side of Uncle Aesop down the road doesn't really
matter. You know, you have a bit of an argument go off to Athens for a debate very individualistic, the seedbed of Western humanity. He contrasts that with Asian culture or Eastern thought, which is birthed out of places like China, where they're growing rice, and you have to work together with your neighbors to irrigate your rice paddy or you'll you won't be you won't have this food that is an
absolute staple. Yeah. And so right from the very beginning of Eastern thought and culture is this idea of harmony and working together. And that has carried through. And you even saw that during COVID. You know, the idea of individualism versus working together as a community just just came crashing head to head and I lived most of the COVID pandemic in Cambodia. And then I came to New Zealand. Oh, my goodness. It's driving me crazy. But but to put an even finer point on it is even the way we
understand the gospel. And I'm sure you've talked about this with other podcast guests. But we in the West have such an individualistic approach to understanding that God, it's me and God, God did this for me on the cross, and I'm saved. And who cares about the rest of my family until they also make that same individual? Conclusion? Yeah. In contrast, we see Jesus going to Zacchaeus house and there's this whole you know, this this episode of economic repentance and this very
holistic conversation. And then Jesus says, Today salvation has come to this house. Yeah. Which kind of gives us a little mind explosion from our individualistic, did everyone pray the sinners prayer, I want to make sure that each individual and so just I, the longer I'm in Asia, just the more I come face to face, it's my own individualism, which is not wrong. It's just my worldview.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's all sorts of worldview issues. And I think that's one of the reasons why as cross cultural workers, we have to do the deep work of unearthing our own worldview, so that we actually are not presenting Jesus plus a whole bunch of others. And we actually just present Jesus. And so that's, that's hard work. Because a lot of our worldview is just subconscious assumptions
of how the world works. And so it's hard to articulate what we actually believe in how we view the world.
Yeah, it really hits Gosh, and we're so self, you know, we're the goldfish in the water, we have no idea about our own. And that's why a posture of kind of learning and serving is so important. We don't you know, we don't realize how off track we are very often.
Yeah. So how can people get your, your book sciverse mission? How can people connect with you and connect with alongside or if they want to say, Hey, I'd love to join something like that?
Yeah. So at my website, Craig greenfield.com, you can actually take a mission or types test. So you know, we usually call these the ministry types, I'm calling them the mission or types, and go through those 27 questions, and then download a PDF with a bit more of an explanation about each type. And then, of course, the books of Versiv mission, serving as outsiders in a world of need, is the full is the full story of that. And I promise you, it's
not like doing homework. It's really as a story, as well as you know, ideas and frameworks. But it's very net as driven by narrative. So it's fun to read. And then if you want to learn more about along ciders, alongside us.org, is our website. And it's a movement that is operating around the world.
Great. Well, Craig, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for taking us on a little journey into Cambodia. What you've seen working with vulnerable children, how you've actually started to switch your posture, and being able to submit and be humble in the midst and learn, listen, as you're entering, interacting and encountering Cambodians, and then taking this on this, this journey through
the five missional types. And I think that posture for us is really going to be helpful, so that we all know that we we all have a part to play and it's nice. The same for each individual, but God has actually gifted different, different people with different gifts to play their part in the kingdom. So thank you very much. It was an excellent conversation. I really enjoyed a
man. Thank you so much, Joshua. Appreciate your time.